Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job

Expand Messages
  • paul larner
    Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a resolution to an industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall correctly, or rather
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 31 8:55 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a resolution to an
      industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall correctly, or
      rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one of the various
      rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their discretion.
      The similarity results from the same conditions that created the color FJ&G
      painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some comittee of
      traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the name
      traction orange.

      The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless alternating colors -
      Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all think of other
      roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their customers to design
      individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only believe that ALCo
      had employees who did the same.

      PKL


      >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@...>
      >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
      >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
      >
      >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
      >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
      >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
      >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
      >
      >Walt
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
      All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by
      ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
    • Mark
      All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own scheme, have the builder design
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
        arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own scheme,
        have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
        significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in standard
        white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white racing
        stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It is no
        coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
        common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
        horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even more
        so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
        connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
        arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
        North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for the
        roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own striping
        schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements did
        become standard offering from the builders. Probably the variations
        in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments or
        modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
        began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
        themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes became
        standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific customer
        (for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
        originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had the
        artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
        paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted it
        adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
        point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes does
        tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders, regardless
        of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first place.

        Mark


        --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
        wrote:
        > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
        resolution to an
        > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
        correctly, or
        > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one of
        the various
        > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
        discretion.
        > The similarity results from the same conditions that created the
        color FJ&G
        > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
        comittee of
        > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
        name
        > traction orange.
        >
        > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless alternating
        colors -
        > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all think of
        other
        > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their customers
        to design
        > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only believe
        that ALCo
        > had employees who did the same.
        >
        > PKL
        >
        >
        > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
        > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
        > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
        > >
        > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
        > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
        > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
        > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
        > >
        > >Walt
        > >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
        Sports by
        > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
      • paul larner
        The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part determined by the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not important. Your
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part determined by
          the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not important.
          Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity for a
          single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
          manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in the
          various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual PR
          departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors regionally or
          plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities in spite of
          their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.

          The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on switchers each
          had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious reasons shared a
          design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes. Nor was
          it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH etc. etc. or
          any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different from one
          another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme. Prior to
          Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few exceptions were
          affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton and Upton,
          Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the only
          independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm talking early
          diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.

          Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't think they
          look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units compare to
          the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.

          Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the designs
          applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a plain
          jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it. I am at my
          usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another location
          or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have my
          Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross reference the
          various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint schemes did it
          for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better to cut the
          fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.

          I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were reserved to
          the individual carriers.

          I'll look closer too.

          PKL



          >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
          >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
          >
          >
          >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
          >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own scheme,
          >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
          >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in standard
          >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white racing
          >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It is no
          >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
          >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
          >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even more
          >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
          >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
          >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
          >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for the
          >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own striping
          >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements did
          >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the variations
          >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments or
          >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
          >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
          >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes became
          >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific customer
          >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
          >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had the
          >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
          >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted it
          >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
          >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes does
          >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders, regardless
          >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first place.
          >
          >Mark
          >
          >
          >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
          >wrote:
          > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
          >resolution to an
          > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
          >correctly, or
          > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one of
          >the various
          > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
          >discretion.
          > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created the
          >color FJ&G
          > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
          >comittee of
          > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
          >name
          > > traction orange.
          > >
          > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless alternating
          >colors -
          > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all think of
          >other
          > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their customers
          >to design
          > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only believe
          >that ALCo
          > > had employees who did the same.
          > >
          > > PKL
          > >
          > >
          > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
          > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
          > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
          > > >
          > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
          > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
          > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
          > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
          > > >
          > > >Walt
          > > >
          > >
          > > _________________________________________________________________
          > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
          >Sports by
          > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
          Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and
          safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
        • Mark
          This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom to have it s locomtives
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
            arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
            to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
            take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
            from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to get
            into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
            F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
            because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
            numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
            Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
            has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
            flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
            schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
            used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
            arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
            but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
            stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
            Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
            scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
            Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
            exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme as
            was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
            schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
            because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
            scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW said
            the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
            with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
            embellished upon it. But they didn't.

            Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
            Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
            names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
            a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
            color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
            are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
            other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not much,
            and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
            the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
            though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
            embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
            B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
            their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
            frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
            around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This sin't
            because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
            choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
            their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
            coincidence.

            And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
            deceased equine.

            Mark





            --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
            wrote:
            > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
            determined by
            > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
            important.
            > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity
            for a
            > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
            > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in
            the
            > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
            PR
            > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
            regionally or
            > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
            in spite of
            > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
            >
            > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
            switchers each
            > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
            reasons shared a
            > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes.
            Nor was
            > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
            etc. etc. or
            > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
            from one
            > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
            Prior to
            > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
            exceptions were
            > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
            and Upton,
            > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
            only
            > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
            talking early
            > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.
            >
            > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
            think they
            > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
            compare to
            > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
            >
            > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the
            designs
            > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a
            plain
            > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
            I am at my
            > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another
            location
            > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
            my
            > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
            reference the
            > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
            schemes did it
            > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better to
            cut the
            > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.
            >
            > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
            reserved to
            > the individual carriers.
            >
            > I'll look closer too.
            >
            > PKL
            >
            >
            >
            > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
            > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
            > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
            > >
            > >
            > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
            > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
            scheme,
            > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
            > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
            standard
            > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
            racing
            > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
            is no
            > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
            > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
            > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even
            more
            > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
            > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
            > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
            > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for
            the
            > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
            striping
            > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements
            did
            > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
            variations
            > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments
            or
            > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
            > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
            > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
            became
            > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
            customer
            > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
            > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
            the
            > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
            > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted
            it
            > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
            > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
            does
            > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
            regardless
            > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
            place.
            > >
            > >Mark
            > >
            > >
            > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
            > >wrote:
            > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
            > >resolution to an
            > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
            > >correctly, or
            > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one
            of
            > >the various
            > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
            > >discretion.
            > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
            the
            > >color FJ&G
            > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
            > >comittee of
            > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
            > >name
            > > > traction orange.
            > > >
            > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
            alternating
            > >colors -
            > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
            think of
            > >other
            > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
            customers
            > >to design
            > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
            believe
            > >that ALCo
            > > > had employees who did the same.
            > > >
            > > > PKL
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
            > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
            > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
            > > > >
            > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
            scheme, the
            > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from
            the
            > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
            is was
            > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
            > > > >
            > > > >Walt
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            _________________________________________________________________
            > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
            > >Sports by
            > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
            > >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
            > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
            protected and
            > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
          • paul larner
            Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV cowl units. B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F s and E s in both Dartmouth green and Harvard
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV cowl units.
              B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth green and
              Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-3s and the
              MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new. I
              couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be surprised
              if they had it too. I think the only new units that didn't have that three
              stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
              switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners). Until the McGuiness era of course.
              After 1955 when the roads went their separate ways both developed other
              patterns.

              Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road units both
              Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red? Most of the
              photos I could locate for LV were second generation units and not unlike B&M
              and MeC showed a wide variety.

              And I do recall the shared scheme on the L&NW SWs in an article also many
              years ago, but couldn't quickly find a picture.

              Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's paint
              pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a modeler would
              notice.

              PKL



              >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
              >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
              >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
              >
              >
              >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
              >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
              >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
              >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
              >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to get
              >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
              >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
              >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
              >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
              >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
              >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
              >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
              >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
              >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
              >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
              >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
              >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
              >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
              >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
              >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
              >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme as
              >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
              >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
              >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
              >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW said
              >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
              >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
              >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
              >
              >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
              >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
              >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
              >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
              >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
              >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
              >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not much,
              >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
              >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
              >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
              >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
              >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
              >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
              >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
              >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This sin't
              >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
              >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
              >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
              >coincidence.
              >
              >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
              >deceased equine.
              >
              >Mark
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
              >wrote:
              > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
              >determined by
              > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
              >important.
              > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity
              >for a
              > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
              > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in
              >the
              > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
              >PR
              > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
              >regionally or
              > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
              >in spite of
              > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
              > >
              > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
              >switchers each
              > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
              >reasons shared a
              > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes.
              >Nor was
              > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
              >etc. etc. or
              > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
              >from one
              > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
              >Prior to
              > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
              >exceptions were
              > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
              >and Upton,
              > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
              >only
              > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
              >talking early
              > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.
              > >
              > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
              >think they
              > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
              >compare to
              > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
              > >
              > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the
              >designs
              > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a
              >plain
              > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
              >I am at my
              > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another
              >location
              > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
              >my
              > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
              >reference the
              > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
              >schemes did it
              > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better to
              >cut the
              > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.
              > >
              > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
              >reserved to
              > > the individual carriers.
              > >
              > > I'll look closer too.
              > >
              > > PKL
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
              > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
              > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
              > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
              >scheme,
              > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
              > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
              >standard
              > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
              >racing
              > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
              >is no
              > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
              > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
              > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even
              >more
              > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
              > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
              > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
              > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for
              >the
              > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
              >striping
              > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements
              >did
              > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
              >variations
              > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments
              >or
              > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
              > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
              > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
              >became
              > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
              >customer
              > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
              > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
              >the
              > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
              > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted
              >it
              > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
              > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
              >does
              > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
              >regardless
              > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
              >place.
              > > >
              > > >Mark
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
              > > >wrote:
              > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
              > > >resolution to an
              > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
              > > >correctly, or
              > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one
              >of
              > > >the various
              > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
              > > >discretion.
              > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
              >the
              > > >color FJ&G
              > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
              > > >comittee of
              > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
              > > >name
              > > > > traction orange.
              > > > >
              > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
              >alternating
              > > >colors -
              > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
              >think of
              > > >other
              > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
              >customers
              > > >to design
              > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
              >believe
              > > >that ALCo
              > > > > had employees who did the same.
              > > > >
              > > > > PKL
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
              > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
              > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
              > > > > >
              > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
              >scheme, the
              > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from
              >the
              > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
              >is was
              > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >Walt
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              >_________________________________________________________________
              > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
              > > >Sports by
              > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
              > > >
              > >
              > > _________________________________________________________________
              > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
              >protected and
              > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
              >

              _________________________________________________________________
              FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
              http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
            • Gino DiCarlo
              That s not arguing, that s called discussing and that s what this list is for! I m glad I started this and it s entertaining to me!!!! Keep it up! Gino ...
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                That's not arguing, that's called discussing and that's what this list
                is for!
                I'm glad I started this and it's entertaining to me!!!! Keep it up!

                Gino

                On Apr 1, 2004, at 9:49 PM, Mark wrote:

                >
                > This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                > arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                > to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                > take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                > from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to get
                > into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                > F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                > because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                > numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                > Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                > has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                > flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                > schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                > used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                > arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                > but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                > stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                > Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                > scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                > Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                > exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme as
                > was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                > schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                > because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                > scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW said
                > the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                > with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                > embellished upon it. But they didn't.
                >
                > Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                > Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                > names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                > a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                > color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                > are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                > other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not much,
                > and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                > the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                > though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                > embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                > B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                > their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                > frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                > around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This sin't
                > because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                > choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                > their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                > coincidence.
                >
                > And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                > deceased equine.
                >
                > Mark
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                > wrote:
                > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                > determined by
                > > the individual railroads.  Where the concepts came from is not
                > important. 
                > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity
                > for a
                > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in
                > the
                > > various paint schemes.  Imitation is flattery but the individual
                > PR
                > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                > regionally or
                > > plagiarizing overall.  Yes there can still be found similarities
                > in spite of
                > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                > >
                > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                > switchers each
                > > had their own distinctive pattern.  MeC and B&M for obvious
                > reasons shared a
                > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes. 
                > Nor was
                > > it like (as opposed to similar)  Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                > etc. etc. or
                > > any of them like the other.  They were in fact notably different
                > from one
                > > another.   The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme. 
                > Prior to
                > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                > exceptions were
                > > affiliated with the connecting class one.  Berlin Mills, Grafton
                > and Upton,
                > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                > only
                > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                > talking early
                > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.
                > >
                > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units.  I don't
                > think they
                > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                > compare to
                > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                > >
                > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the
                > designs
                > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a
                > plain
                > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it. 
                > I am at my
                > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another
                > location
                > > or I would share with you the issue and date.  Neither do I have
                > my
                > > Cyclopedias here to reference.  The web is too slow to cross
                > reference the
                > > various papint schemes.  The roads that used plain jane paint
                > schemes did it
                > > for economy.  After a while as budgets tightened it was better to
                > cut the
                > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.
                > >
                > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                > reserved to
                > > the individual carriers.
                > >
                > > I'll look closer too.
                > >
                > > PKL
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
                > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                > scheme,
                > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                > standard
                > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                > racing
                > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                > is no
                > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even
                > more
                > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
                > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
                > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
                > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for
                > the
                > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                > striping
                > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements
                > did
                > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                > variations
                > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments
                > or
                > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
                > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                > became
                > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                > customer
                > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
                > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                > the
                > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
                > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted
                > it
                > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
                > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                > does
                > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                > regardless
                > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                > place.
                > > >
                > > >Mark
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                > > >wrote:
                > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                > > >resolution to an
                > > > > industry safety issue, visibility.  That design, if I recall
                > > >correctly, or
                > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one
                > of
                > > >the various
                > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                > > >discretion.
                > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                > the
                > > >color FJ&G
                > > > > painted their trolleys.  Those colors were agreed upon by some
                > > >comittee of
                > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc.  Hence the
                > > >name
                > > > > traction orange.
                > > > >
                > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                > alternating
                > > >colors -
                > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                > think of
                > > >other
                > > > > roads.  I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                > customers
                > > >to design
                > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels.   Can only
                > believe
                > > >that ALCo
                > > > > had employees who did the same.
                > > > >
                > > > > PKL
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                > > > > >
                > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                > scheme, the
                > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from
                > the
                > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                > is was
                > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                > > > > >
                > > > > >Walt
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
                > > >Sports by
                > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                > > >
                > >
                > > _________________________________________________________________
                > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
                > protected and
                > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
                >
                >
                >
                > Visit Gino's Railpage at
                > http://www.ginosrailpage.com
                > Visit The Greater Capital District Railfan Assocation at
                > http://gcdranet.homelinux.com/
                > Visit Pete Seftons Lost Landmark Page
                > http://www.lostlandmarks.org
                > Visit The NERAIL North American Photo Archive at
                > http://naphotos.nerail.org/
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FJGRailroad/
                >  
                > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > FJGRailroad-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >  
                > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > Service.
                >
                >
                Visit Gino's Railpage at
                http://www.ginosrailpage.com
              • Mark
                ... cowl units. ... green and ... 3s and the ... I ... surprised ... They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad yellow (dulux gold)
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                  wrote:
                  > Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV
                  cowl units.
                  > B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth
                  green and
                  > Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-
                  3s and the
                  > MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new.
                  I
                  > couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be
                  surprised
                  > if they had it too.

                  They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad
                  yellow (dulux gold) stripe.

                  The point here is that the scheme originated with the EMD F's and was
                  adopted as standard by the B&M for all road units. Whether the scheme
                  (i.e., paint layout) was designed specifically for the B&M or was
                  already on paper at EMD I don't know for sure, but I do believe B&M
                  was the first of many users of this paint layout.

                  I think the only new units that didn't have that three
                  > stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
                  > switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners).

                  As well as the E's and many of the EMD switchers which got the black
                  switcher scheme.


                  >
                  > Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road
                  units both
                  > Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red?

                  Most LV units in the 40s-60s wore Cornell red w/ black stripes in the
                  B&M-style scheme. This includes EMD F's , ALco FAs, ALso RS-2s and
                  switchers, Baldwin switchers, EMD switchers, etc. Pre-F unit diesels
                  wore either very simple schemes or on EMD switchers, an odd maroon
                  and grey with a yellow stripe scheme -which was also a standard
                  EMD/EMC paint layout- which appeared on several other road's early
                  (SW, SC, SW-1, NW-2, etc.) units as well, in various colors, and
                  would appear to be an adaptation of the EMD/EMC demonstrator scheme
                  that was applied to said early switcher demo units. Once the EMD F's
                  came along that became the standard paint scheme.

                  >
                  > Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's
                  paint
                  > pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a
                  modeler would
                  > notice.

                  I am a modeler, and I would say that in terms of paint arrangement,
                  disregarding colors, lettering, and a few minor embellishemnts or
                  deletions, the B&M siwtcher scheme, the FJ&G scheme, the L&BR and G&U
                  44 tonners, and a host of other units, are painted in about the same
                  layout. Perhaps one needs to think not as a modeller who needs a
                  different decal set for each scheme, but as the Alco-GE man who drew
                  up the schemes on paper or laid out the stencils and masking for
                  painting to realize that any of those schemes would be pretty
                  repetitive with the exceptions of things like colors used, lettering
                  of course, stripe width, addition or subtartion of a second body
                  color and a separating stripe, etc.

                  Line up a D&H RS-3 in black w/ yellow stripes and a SOO RS-1 in black
                  with yellow stripes and an Alco demontsrator in green w/ yellow
                  stripes,and Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion RS-1 in black w/yellow
                  stripes and a Chestnut Ridge Ry. S-2 in blackw/yellow stripes and a
                  horde of industry,or shortline-owned Alco switchers in black or green
                  w/ yellow stripes, and once again you'd see the only differences in
                  the job the painter (or artist who drew them up) was doing involved
                  colors, lettering, and in a few cases the width of the stripes and
                  the addition or deletion of a horizontal yellow pinstripe running
                  around the upper hood. You'll also notice how most of the schemes I
                  mentioned above use black and yellow, so here we're talking about a
                  mass of units for a variety of customers, all painted in the same
                  layout as the Alco demonstrators with only very slight variations,
                  and usually painted black and yellow too! If that does not constitute
                  a standard paint scheme offered by a builder, I don't know what does!
                  The buyers could of course choose not to accept it (i.e., instead of
                  Henry Ford's "any color you like as long as it's black" quote
                  regarding the Model T, Alco's was more like "any paint scheme you
                  want as long as it's black with yellow end stripes, unless you want
                  us to change the colors for you, or if you REALLy want to we can do
                  something completely different.")

                  I figured I'd add a little more since we are "discussing" and
                  not "arguing"!

                  Mark


                  >
                  > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                  > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                  > >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                  > >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                  > >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                  > >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                  > >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to
                  get
                  > >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                  > >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                  > >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                  > >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                  > >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                  > >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                  > >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                  > >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                  > >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                  > >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                  > >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                  > >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                  > >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                  > >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                  > >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                  > >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme
                  as
                  > >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                  > >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                  > >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                  > >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW
                  said
                  > >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                  > >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                  > >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
                  > >
                  > >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                  > >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                  > >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                  > >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                  > >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                  > >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                  > >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not
                  much,
                  > >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                  > >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                  > >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                  > >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                  > >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                  > >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                  > >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                  > >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This
                  sin't
                  > >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                  > >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                  > >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                  > >coincidence.
                  > >
                  > >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                  > >deceased equine.
                  > >
                  > >Mark
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                  > >wrote:
                  > > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                  > >determined by
                  > > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
                  > >important.
                  > > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in
                  creativity
                  > >for a
                  > > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                  > > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences
                  in
                  > >the
                  > > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
                  > >PR
                  > > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                  > >regionally or
                  > > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
                  > >in spite of
                  > > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                  > > >
                  > > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                  > >switchers each
                  > > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
                  > >reasons shared a
                  > > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was
                  stripes.
                  > >Nor was
                  > > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                  > >etc. etc. or
                  > > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
                  > >from one
                  > > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
                  > >Prior to
                  > > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                  > >exceptions were
                  > > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
                  > >and Upton,
                  > > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                  > >only
                  > > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                  > >talking early
                  > > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44
                  tonners.
                  > > >
                  > > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
                  > >think they
                  > > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                  > >compare to
                  > > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                  > > >
                  > > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on
                  the
                  > >designs
                  > > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have
                  been a
                  > >plain
                  > > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
                  > >I am at my
                  > > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at
                  another
                  > >location
                  > > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
                  > >my
                  > > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
                  > >reference the
                  > > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
                  > >schemes did it
                  > > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better
                  to
                  > >cut the
                  > > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important
                  projects.
                  > > >
                  > > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                  > >reserved to
                  > > > the individual carriers.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'll look closer too.
                  > > >
                  > > > PKL
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                  > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                  > > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard
                  paint
                  > > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                  > >scheme,
                  > > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                  > > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                  > >standard
                  > > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                  > >racing
                  > > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                  > >is no
                  > > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                  > > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                  > > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were
                  even
                  > >more
                  > > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely
                  no
                  > > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M
                  paint
                  > > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and
                  Quebec,
                  > > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except
                  for
                  > >the
                  > > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                  > >striping
                  > > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic
                  arrangements
                  > >did
                  > > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                  > >variations
                  > > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to
                  embellishments
                  > >or
                  > > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the
                  railroads
                  > > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                  > > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                  > >became
                  > > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                  > >customer
                  > > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe*
                  was
                  > > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                  > >the
                  > > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer
                  that
                  > > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who
                  wanted
                  > >it
                  > > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making
                  the
                  > > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                  > >does
                  > > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                  > >regardless
                  > > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                  > >place.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Mark
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner"
                  <pklarner@h...>
                  > > > >wrote:
                  > > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                  > > > >resolution to an
                  > > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                  > > > >correctly, or
                  > > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by
                  one
                  > >of
                  > > > >the various
                  > > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                  > > > >discretion.
                  > > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                  > >the
                  > > > >color FJ&G
                  > > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by
                  some
                  > > > >comittee of
                  > > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence
                  the
                  > > > >name
                  > > > > > traction orange.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                  > >alternating
                  > > > >colors -
                  > > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                  > >think of
                  > > > >other
                  > > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                  > >customers
                  > > > >to design
                  > > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
                  > >believe
                  > > > >that ALCo
                  > > > > > had employees who did the same.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > PKL
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                  > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                  > > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                  > >scheme, the
                  > > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE
                  from
                  > >the
                  > > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                  > >is was
                  > > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >Walt
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > >_________________________________________________________________
                  > > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at
                  MSN
                  > > > >Sports by
                  > > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  _________________________________________________________________
                  > > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
                  > >protected and
                  > > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
                  > >
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
                  > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
                • paul larner
                  I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed from my statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a recommendation of a railroad
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed from my
                    statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a recommendation of a
                    railroad management association answering a call for improved visibility for
                    diesels and gas cars. That was my initial position as opposed to the design
                    being created or evolving among the manufacturers; I stand with that
                    "belief" (because I am not at home with my reference material).

                    I'll be north next week and try to recall to dig into the why, who and when
                    of that recommendation.

                    Considering the basic shape of the diesel locomotive, it is amazing how many
                    design variations were created while maintaining fluidity with the passenger
                    train. Have any outclassed the designs created for the passenger locomotive
                    fleets initially and for those installed as the railroads developed their
                    modern fleets following WW2?

                    PKL


                    >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
                    >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                    >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:37:32 -0000
                    >
                    >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                    >wrote:
                    > > Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV
                    >cowl units.
                    > > B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth
                    >green and
                    > > Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-
                    >3s and the
                    > > MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new.
                    >I
                    > > couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be
                    >surprised
                    > > if they had it too.
                    >
                    >They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad
                    >yellow (dulux gold) stripe.
                    >
                    >The point here is that the scheme originated with the EMD F's and was
                    >adopted as standard by the B&M for all road units. Whether the scheme
                    >(i.e., paint layout) was designed specifically for the B&M or was
                    >already on paper at EMD I don't know for sure, but I do believe B&M
                    >was the first of many users of this paint layout.
                    >
                    >I think the only new units that didn't have that three
                    > > stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
                    > > switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners).
                    >
                    >As well as the E's and many of the EMD switchers which got the black
                    >switcher scheme.
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road
                    >units both
                    > > Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red?
                    >
                    >Most LV units in the 40s-60s wore Cornell red w/ black stripes in the
                    >B&M-style scheme. This includes EMD F's , ALco FAs, ALso RS-2s and
                    >switchers, Baldwin switchers, EMD switchers, etc. Pre-F unit diesels
                    >wore either very simple schemes or on EMD switchers, an odd maroon
                    >and grey with a yellow stripe scheme -which was also a standard
                    >EMD/EMC paint layout- which appeared on several other road's early
                    >(SW, SC, SW-1, NW-2, etc.) units as well, in various colors, and
                    >would appear to be an adaptation of the EMD/EMC demonstrator scheme
                    >that was applied to said early switcher demo units. Once the EMD F's
                    >came along that became the standard paint scheme.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's
                    >paint
                    > > pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a
                    >modeler would
                    > > notice.
                    >
                    >I am a modeler, and I would say that in terms of paint arrangement,
                    >disregarding colors, lettering, and a few minor embellishemnts or
                    >deletions, the B&M siwtcher scheme, the FJ&G scheme, the L&BR and G&U
                    >44 tonners, and a host of other units, are painted in about the same
                    >layout. Perhaps one needs to think not as a modeller who needs a
                    >different decal set for each scheme, but as the Alco-GE man who drew
                    >up the schemes on paper or laid out the stencils and masking for
                    >painting to realize that any of those schemes would be pretty
                    >repetitive with the exceptions of things like colors used, lettering
                    >of course, stripe width, addition or subtartion of a second body
                    >color and a separating stripe, etc.
                    >
                    >Line up a D&H RS-3 in black w/ yellow stripes and a SOO RS-1 in black
                    >with yellow stripes and an Alco demontsrator in green w/ yellow
                    >stripes,and Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion RS-1 in black w/yellow
                    >stripes and a Chestnut Ridge Ry. S-2 in blackw/yellow stripes and a
                    >horde of industry,or shortline-owned Alco switchers in black or green
                    >w/ yellow stripes, and once again you'd see the only differences in
                    >the job the painter (or artist who drew them up) was doing involved
                    >colors, lettering, and in a few cases the width of the stripes and
                    >the addition or deletion of a horizontal yellow pinstripe running
                    >around the upper hood. You'll also notice how most of the schemes I
                    >mentioned above use black and yellow, so here we're talking about a
                    >mass of units for a variety of customers, all painted in the same
                    >layout as the Alco demonstrators with only very slight variations,
                    >and usually painted black and yellow too! If that does not constitute
                    >a standard paint scheme offered by a builder, I don't know what does!
                    >The buyers could of course choose not to accept it (i.e., instead of
                    >Henry Ford's "any color you like as long as it's black" quote
                    >regarding the Model T, Alco's was more like "any paint scheme you
                    >want as long as it's black with yellow end stripes, unless you want
                    >us to change the colors for you, or if you REALLy want to we can do
                    >something completely different.")
                    >
                    >I figured I'd add a little more since we are "discussing" and
                    >not "arguing"!
                    >
                    >Mark
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                    > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                    > > >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                    > > >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                    > > >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                    > > >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                    > > >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to
                    >get
                    > > >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                    > > >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                    > > >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                    > > >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                    > > >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                    > > >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                    > > >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                    > > >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                    > > >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                    > > >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                    > > >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                    > > >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                    > > >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                    > > >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                    > > >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                    > > >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme
                    >as
                    > > >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                    > > >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                    > > >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                    > > >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW
                    >said
                    > > >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                    > > >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                    > > >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
                    > > >
                    > > >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                    > > >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                    > > >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                    > > >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                    > > >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                    > > >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                    > > >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not
                    >much,
                    > > >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                    > > >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                    > > >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                    > > >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                    > > >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                    > > >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                    > > >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                    > > >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This
                    >sin't
                    > > >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                    > > >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                    > > >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                    > > >coincidence.
                    > > >
                    > > >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                    > > >deceased equine.
                    > > >
                    > > >Mark
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                    > > >wrote:
                    > > > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                    > > >determined by
                    > > > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
                    > > >important.
                    > > > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in
                    >creativity
                    > > >for a
                    > > > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                    > > > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences
                    >in
                    > > >the
                    > > > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
                    > > >PR
                    > > > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                    > > >regionally or
                    > > > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
                    > > >in spite of
                    > > > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                    > > >switchers each
                    > > > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
                    > > >reasons shared a
                    > > > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was
                    >stripes.
                    > > >Nor was
                    > > > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                    > > >etc. etc. or
                    > > > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
                    > > >from one
                    > > > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
                    > > >Prior to
                    > > > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                    > > >exceptions were
                    > > > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
                    > > >and Upton,
                    > > > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                    > > >only
                    > > > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                    > > >talking early
                    > > > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44
                    >tonners.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
                    > > >think they
                    > > > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                    > > >compare to
                    > > > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on
                    >the
                    > > >designs
                    > > > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have
                    >been a
                    > > >plain
                    > > > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
                    > > >I am at my
                    > > > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at
                    >another
                    > > >location
                    > > > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
                    > > >my
                    > > > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
                    > > >reference the
                    > > > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
                    > > >schemes did it
                    > > > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better
                    >to
                    > > >cut the
                    > > > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important
                    >projects.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                    > > >reserved to
                    > > > > the individual carriers.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I'll look closer too.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > PKL
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                    > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                    > > > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard
                    >paint
                    > > > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                    > > >scheme,
                    > > > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                    > > > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                    > > >standard
                    > > > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                    > > >racing
                    > > > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                    > > >is no
                    > > > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                    > > > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                    > > > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were
                    >even
                    > > >more
                    > > > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely
                    >no
                    > > > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M
                    >paint
                    > > > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and
                    >Quebec,
                    > > > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except
                    >for
                    > > >the
                    > > > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                    > > >striping
                    > > > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic
                    >arrangements
                    > > >did
                    > > > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                    > > >variations
                    > > > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to
                    >embellishments
                    > > >or
                    > > > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the
                    >railroads
                    > > > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                    > > > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                    > > >became
                    > > > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                    > > >customer
                    > > > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe*
                    >was
                    > > > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                    > > >the
                    > > > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer
                    >that
                    > > > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who
                    >wanted
                    > > >it
                    > > > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making
                    >the
                    > > > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                    > > >does
                    > > > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                    > > >regardless
                    > > > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                    > > >place.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >Mark
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner"
                    ><pklarner@h...>
                    > > > > >wrote:
                    > > > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                    > > > > >resolution to an
                    > > > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                    > > > > >correctly, or
                    > > > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by
                    >one
                    > > >of
                    > > > > >the various
                    > > > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                    > > > > >discretion.
                    > > > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                    > > >the
                    > > > > >color FJ&G
                    > > > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by
                    >some
                    > > > > >comittee of
                    > > > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence
                    >the
                    > > > > >name
                    > > > > > > traction orange.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                    > > >alternating
                    > > > > >colors -
                    > > > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                    > > >think of
                    > > > > >other
                    > > > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                    > > >customers
                    > > > > >to design
                    > > > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
                    > > >believe
                    > > > > >that ALCo
                    > > > > > > had employees who did the same.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > PKL
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                    > > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                    > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                    > > >scheme, the
                    > > > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE
                    >from
                    > > >the
                    > > > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                    > > >is was
                    > > > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >Walt
                    > > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > >_________________________________________________________________
                    > > > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at
                    >MSN
                    > > > > >Sports by
                    > > > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    >_________________________________________________________________
                    > > > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
                    > > >protected and
                    > > > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > _________________________________________________________________
                    > > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
                    > > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
                    >

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Free up your inbox with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! Multiple plans available.
                    http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=hotmail/es2&ST=1/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
                  • Mark
                    ... from my ... recommendation of a ... visibility for ... the design ... that ... I do not disagree at all with the above, but I do maintain that there were
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                      wrote:
                      > I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed
                      from my
                      > statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a
                      recommendation of a
                      > railroad management association answering a call for improved
                      visibility for
                      > diesels and gas cars. That was my initial position as opposed to
                      the design
                      > being created or evolving among the manufacturers; I stand with
                      that
                      > "belief" (because I am not at home with my reference material).

                      I do not disagree at all with the above, but I do maintain that
                      there were specific applications of said "recommendation" that can
                      be attributed to a layout drwan up by the builder and then offered
                      as a standardized design to any customer who wanted it. That is the
                      core of my "argument", that there were in fact paint layouts that
                      were offered "off the shelf" by the builders, and that not all apint
                      schemes were designed by or for a specific railroad, and that the
                      similarities between the early paint schemes of several railroads
                      can be atributed to these standard painting arrangements offered by
                      the builders, not simply "coincidence".

                      Mark
                    • Charles Woolever
                      There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W maroon/gray/yellow was
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There
                        were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W
                        maroon/gray/yellow was designed by EMD. What was interesting about all
                        of the drawings was seeing other roads in same schemes, like Frisco in
                        the DL&W colors or whatever.

                        Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                        and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                        roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                        paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                        think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!

                        Charles
                      • Dicarlo, Gino
                        That s was pretty much what I was wondering Charles. I was making the assumption on B&W photos and just figured there was a standard paint job. When I did
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          That's was pretty much what I was wondering Charles. I was
                          making the assumption on B&W photos and just figured there was
                          a standard paint job. When I did finally see the colors of the
                          Lowville & Beaver River 44-tonner I realized how different the
                          paint was from the FJ&G...

                          Gino

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Charles Woolever [mailto:yahoo@...]
                          Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 3:52 PM
                          To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job


                          Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                          and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                          roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                          paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                          think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!

                          Charles
                        • paul larner
                          To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps some more
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many
                            of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps
                            some more (there are thousands) do a google search for "engine shop." The
                            first item that comes up on my search is a site titled Engine Shop
                            containing drawings with colors. 44 tonners, 70 tonners, E-6, E-8, F-7,
                            BL-2 they're all there, I haen't looked at ALCo yet. Must be an identical
                            scheme in there some where, you decide. Similar, how could they not be in
                            many ways. Alike, take a look; what can I say. LV and B&M are in there.

                            The url is usloki.tripod.com/ but that doesn't et you there; needs more.
                            The google search gets me there and it can be saved as a favorite.

                            PKL


                            >From: "Charles Woolever" <yahoo@...>
                            >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                            >Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 19:51:56 -0000
                            >
                            >There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There
                            >were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W
                            >maroon/gray/yellow was designed by EMD. What was interesting about all
                            >of the drawings was seeing other roads in same schemes, like Frisco in
                            >the DL&W colors or whatever.
                            >
                            >Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                            >and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                            >roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                            >paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                            >think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!
                            >
                            >Charles
                            >

                            _________________________________________________________________
                            Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
                            Premium!
                            http://join.msn.com/?page=features/mlb&pgmarket=en-us/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/
                          • Mark
                            ... the ... you d ... Thank you Charles, at least somebody else sees what I see when they look at all those engines that were painted with most of the same
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 6, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all
                              the
                              > roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                              > paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better,
                              you'd
                              > think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!
                              >
                              > Charles


                              Thank you Charles, at least somebody else sees what I see when they
                              look at all those engines that were painted with most of the same
                              masking and stencils! It seems that what we have here is people
                              getting "blinded" by the different COLORS and getting distracted by
                              the presence or lack of separating stripes, etc. and therefore not
                              seeing that if you took away the pinstripes and separatung stripes,
                              and took the colors away and made everything tones of gray (or even
                              better, line drawings showing nothing more than the separation of the
                              two colors-i.e., the masking lines), the SCHEMES are similar if not
                              in many cases identical.

                              Gino seems to have hit the nail on the head without realizing it when
                              he said he didn't realize HOW DIFFERENT the L&BR and FJ&G schemes
                              were until he saw them both in COLOR. Yes, there are differences, but
                              there are also striking similarities. Look at them in B&W, take away
                              the saparting stripes on the FJ&G unit, and about all that's
                              different is the termination of the stripes. I am not saying these
                              schemes are the SAME, I am saying they are strikingly similar purely
                              from a layout standpoint for a reason other than coincidence.


                              To say this similarity is because, well, there isn't that much you
                              can do differently, is to say that stripes must be the same width, at
                              the same angle, start and end at the same points, etc. Stripes can be
                              anywhere from 0-90 degrees, anywhere (within reason) from 1/2 inch to
                              several feet wide, they could be visible only in an end view, wrap
                              around the entire locomtive, or anywhere in between, etc. Just
                              because all those engines with the same width stripes at the same
                              angles (or radii as the case may be) starting and ending at the same
                              points are all different colors or some of them have a separating
                              stripe, does not make them the result of individual design, starting
                              from scratch, by or for each owner. Also keep in mind here that we
                              are talking only about 40s-era as-delivered schemes from the
                              builders, not later schemes or railroad-applied or modified versions
                              of the builder schemes. So while there are certainly plenty of
                              totally unrelated, individually designed schemes out there, the
                              schemes in question, as applied to 1st generation diesels by the
                              builders when new, are very often variations on standard designs.

                              I guess maybe we all just have differing ideas of what constitutes a
                              significant "difference" in a paint scheme.

                              Mark
                            • Dicarlo, Gino
                              I did a search on engine shop and that site is awesome!!! Check it out!!! It would be great to see some FJG engines on there! GINO ... From: paul larner
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 6, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I did a search on "engine shop" and that site is awesome!!!
                                Check it out!!! It would be great to see some FJG engines
                                on there!

                                GINO

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: paul larner [mailto:pklarner@...]
                                Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:02 AM
                                To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job


                                To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many
                                of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps
                                some more (there are thousands) do a google search for "engine shop." The
                                first item that comes up on my search is a site titled Engine Shop
                                containing drawings with colors. 44 tonners, 70 tonners, E-6, E-8, F-7,
                                BL-2 they're all there, I haen't looked at ALCo yet. Must be an identical
                                scheme in there some where, you decide. Similar, how could they not be in
                                many ways. Alike, take a look; what can I say. LV and B&M are in there.

                                The url is usloki.tripod.com/ but that doesn't et you there; needs more.
                                The google search gets me there and it can be saved as a favorite.

                                PKL
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.