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44 Tonner Paint Job

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  • Dicarlo, Gino
    Hi guys, I ve just finished reading a great old book called Rails In The North Woods. Yes, it s been around for a while and I m just reading it now.
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 29 1:49 PM
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      Hi guys,

      I've just finished reading a great "old" book called "Rails In The North
      Woods."
      Yes, it's been around for a while and I'm just reading it now. Anyhow, I
      like
      the chapter on the Lowville and Beaver River. The first thing I like is how
      they
      named their engines by when they acquired them. Great idea, huh? Also, I
      was noticing that the paint scheme (minus Orange) on the their 44-tonner
      (In B&W At least) was similar to the FJG's Number 30. They both had the
      racing stripes. It also seems to me that I've seen other 44-tonners that
      had
      similar stripes. Case in point, The Saratoga and Schuylerville and the
      Clermont and
      Concord. Is there something with GE locos that makes front-stripes
      standard?

      Gino

      Gino DiCarlo
      Imaging

      Quad/Imaging
      A Division of Quad/Graphics

      Saratoga Springs, New York

      518-581-4276 phone
      gino.dicarlo@...
      www.QG.com
    • Mark
      This was a standard GE paint scheme, with the stripes either squared off at the ends or having a curved taper to a point (like a B&M or MEC Alco switcher).
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 30 7:48 AM
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        This was a standard GE paint scheme, with the stripes either squared
        off at the ends or having a curved taper to a point (like a B&M or
        MEC Alco switcher). Same sort of thing as why so many Alco switchers
        and Rs-1s,2s, and RS-3s had angled nose stripes on the ends, and why
        so many railroad's EMD's had pinstripes (B&M, MEC, LV, D&RGW, etc.).
        The GE switcher scheme with end stripes is probably a reflection of
        the fact that during the 40s and early 50s Alco and GE were partners
        in the locomotive business. Early on, the diesel makers
        had "standard" paint arrangements that could be adapted to the
        individual railroad's colors (or in some cases, for which the RR had
        to choose colors). Remember, in early dieselization most railroads
        did not have anything resembling a "diesel paint scheme" and so had
        to pick one. That is probably also why so many 1st-generation
        diesels, especially switchers, were black (because setam locomotive
        black was the only paint scheme there was).

        Mark


        --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Dicarlo, Gino"
        <Gino.Dicarlo@q...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi guys,
        >
        > I've just finished reading a great "old" book called "Rails In The
        North
        > Woods."
        > Yes, it's been around for a while and I'm just reading it now.
        Anyhow, I
        > like
        > the chapter on the Lowville and Beaver River. The first thing I
        like is how
        > they
        > named their engines by when they acquired them. Great idea, huh?
        Also, I
        > was noticing that the paint scheme (minus Orange) on the their 44-
        tonner
        > (In B&W At least) was similar to the FJG's Number 30. They both had
        the
        > racing stripes. It also seems to me that I've seen other 44-
        tonners that
        > had
        > similar stripes. Case in point, The Saratoga and Schuylerville and
        the
        > Clermont and
        > Concord. Is there something with GE locos that makes front-stripes
        > standard?
        >
        > Gino
        >
        > Gino DiCarlo
        > Imaging
        >
        > Quad/Imaging
        > A Division of Quad/Graphics
        >
        > Saratoga Springs, New York
        >
        > 518-581-4276 phone
        > gino.dicarlo@q...
        > www.QG.com
      • Walt Danylak
        While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the W&OD but was not
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 30 6:35 PM
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          While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
          FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
          W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
          still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.

          Walt
        • Mark
          True enough, Walt. But the FJ&G applied basically the same scheme to the GE as the S-2s already had, which was a factory-applied variation of the classic
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 31 12:46 PM
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            True enough, Walt. But the FJ&G applied basically the same scheme to
            the GE as the S-2s already had, which was a factory-applied variation
            of the classic Alco/GE striped switcher scheme. There are a lot of
            variations in the striping(curved tapers, angled tapers, squared off,
            outlined in white or black or with no outline, tapering forward or
            backward along the side of the hood, etc.)applications but they are
            all basically just variations of the standard Alco/GE switcher
            scheme. Hard to say which actually came up with the striping scheme
            (Alco or GE) as this was all during the partnership years. For
            example, the classic nose of the Alco FA-series units was actually
            designed by GE, but everything but the electricals was built by Alco,
            so the paint scheme could likewise have been concocted by Alco or GE,
            either one. In any event, the same basic paint arrangement appeared
            on everything from 25, 44, and 70 ton GEs to Alco S-1s,22,3s,4s, RS-
            2s, etc. Alco High-hoods (HH-600, HH-660, etc.) also wore the scheme
            but I think these were all later repaints that were originally
            delivered in solid black.

            Mark


            --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
            wrote:
            > While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
            > FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
            > W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
            > still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
            >
            > Walt
          • paul larner
            Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a resolution to an industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall correctly, or rather
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 31 8:55 PM
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              Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a resolution to an
              industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall correctly, or
              rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one of the various
              rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their discretion.
              The similarity results from the same conditions that created the color FJ&G
              painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some comittee of
              traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the name
              traction orange.

              The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless alternating colors -
              Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all think of other
              roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their customers to design
              individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only believe that ALCo
              had employees who did the same.

              PKL


              >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@...>
              >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
              >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
              >
              >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
              >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
              >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
              >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
              >
              >Walt
              >

              _________________________________________________________________
              All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN Sports by
              ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
            • Mark
              All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own scheme, have the builder design
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
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                All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
                arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own scheme,
                have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in standard
                white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white racing
                stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It is no
                coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even more
                so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
                connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
                arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
                North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for the
                roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own striping
                schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements did
                become standard offering from the builders. Probably the variations
                in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments or
                modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
                began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes became
                standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific customer
                (for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
                originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had the
                artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
                paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted it
                adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
                point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes does
                tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders, regardless
                of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first place.

                Mark


                --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                wrote:
                > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                resolution to an
                > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                correctly, or
                > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one of
                the various
                > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                discretion.
                > The similarity results from the same conditions that created the
                color FJ&G
                > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
                comittee of
                > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
                name
                > traction orange.
                >
                > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless alternating
                colors -
                > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all think of
                other
                > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their customers
                to design
                > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only believe
                that ALCo
                > had employees who did the same.
                >
                > PKL
                >
                >
                > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                > >
                > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
                > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
                > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
                > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                > >
                > >Walt
                > >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
                Sports by
                > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
              • paul larner
                The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part determined by the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not important. Your
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
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                  The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part determined by
                  the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not important.
                  Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity for a
                  single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                  manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in the
                  various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual PR
                  departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors regionally or
                  plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities in spite of
                  their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.

                  The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on switchers each
                  had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious reasons shared a
                  design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes. Nor was
                  it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH etc. etc. or
                  any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different from one
                  another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme. Prior to
                  Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few exceptions were
                  affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton and Upton,
                  Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the only
                  independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm talking early
                  diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.

                  Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't think they
                  look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units compare to
                  the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.

                  Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the designs
                  applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a plain
                  jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it. I am at my
                  usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another location
                  or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have my
                  Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross reference the
                  various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint schemes did it
                  for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better to cut the
                  fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.

                  I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were reserved to
                  the individual carriers.

                  I'll look closer too.

                  PKL



                  >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
                  >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                  >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                  >
                  >
                  >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
                  >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own scheme,
                  >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                  >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in standard
                  >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white racing
                  >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It is no
                  >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                  >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                  >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even more
                  >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
                  >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
                  >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
                  >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for the
                  >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own striping
                  >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements did
                  >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the variations
                  >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments or
                  >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
                  >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                  >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes became
                  >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific customer
                  >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
                  >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had the
                  >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
                  >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted it
                  >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
                  >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes does
                  >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders, regardless
                  >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first place.
                  >
                  >Mark
                  >
                  >
                  >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                  >wrote:
                  > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                  >resolution to an
                  > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                  >correctly, or
                  > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one of
                  >the various
                  > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                  >discretion.
                  > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created the
                  >color FJ&G
                  > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
                  >comittee of
                  > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
                  >name
                  > > traction orange.
                  > >
                  > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless alternating
                  >colors -
                  > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all think of
                  >other
                  > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their customers
                  >to design
                  > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only believe
                  >that ALCo
                  > > had employees who did the same.
                  > >
                  > > PKL
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                  > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                  > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                  > > >
                  > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
                  > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
                  > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
                  > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                  > > >
                  > > >Walt
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > _________________________________________________________________
                  > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
                  >Sports by
                  > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                  >

                  _________________________________________________________________
                  Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and
                  safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
                • Mark
                  This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom to have it s locomtives
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
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                    This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                    arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                    to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                    take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                    from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to get
                    into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                    F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                    because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                    numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                    Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                    has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                    flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                    schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                    used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                    arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                    but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                    stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                    Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                    scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                    Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                    exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme as
                    was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                    schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                    because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                    scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW said
                    the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                    with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                    embellished upon it. But they didn't.

                    Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                    Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                    names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                    a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                    color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                    are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                    other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not much,
                    and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                    the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                    though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                    embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                    B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                    their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                    frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                    around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This sin't
                    because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                    choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                    their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                    coincidence.

                    And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                    deceased equine.

                    Mark





                    --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                    wrote:
                    > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                    determined by
                    > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
                    important.
                    > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity
                    for a
                    > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                    > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in
                    the
                    > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
                    PR
                    > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                    regionally or
                    > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
                    in spite of
                    > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                    >
                    > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                    switchers each
                    > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
                    reasons shared a
                    > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes.
                    Nor was
                    > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                    etc. etc. or
                    > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
                    from one
                    > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
                    Prior to
                    > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                    exceptions were
                    > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
                    and Upton,
                    > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                    only
                    > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                    talking early
                    > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.
                    >
                    > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
                    think they
                    > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                    compare to
                    > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                    >
                    > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the
                    designs
                    > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a
                    plain
                    > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
                    I am at my
                    > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another
                    location
                    > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
                    my
                    > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
                    reference the
                    > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
                    schemes did it
                    > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better to
                    cut the
                    > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.
                    >
                    > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                    reserved to
                    > the individual carriers.
                    >
                    > I'll look closer too.
                    >
                    > PKL
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                    > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                    > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
                    > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                    scheme,
                    > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                    > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                    standard
                    > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                    racing
                    > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                    is no
                    > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                    > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                    > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even
                    more
                    > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
                    > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
                    > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
                    > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for
                    the
                    > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                    striping
                    > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements
                    did
                    > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                    variations
                    > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments
                    or
                    > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
                    > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                    > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                    became
                    > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                    customer
                    > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
                    > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                    the
                    > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
                    > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted
                    it
                    > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
                    > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                    does
                    > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                    regardless
                    > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                    place.
                    > >
                    > >Mark
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                    > >wrote:
                    > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                    > >resolution to an
                    > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                    > >correctly, or
                    > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one
                    of
                    > >the various
                    > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                    > >discretion.
                    > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                    the
                    > >color FJ&G
                    > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
                    > >comittee of
                    > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
                    > >name
                    > > > traction orange.
                    > > >
                    > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                    alternating
                    > >colors -
                    > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                    think of
                    > >other
                    > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                    customers
                    > >to design
                    > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
                    believe
                    > >that ALCo
                    > > > had employees who did the same.
                    > > >
                    > > > PKL
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                    > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                    > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                    > > > >
                    > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                    scheme, the
                    > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from
                    the
                    > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                    is was
                    > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >Walt
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    _________________________________________________________________
                    > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
                    > >Sports by
                    > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                    > >
                    >
                    > _________________________________________________________________
                    > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
                    protected and
                    > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
                  • paul larner
                    Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV cowl units. B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F s and E s in both Dartmouth green and Harvard
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV cowl units.
                      B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth green and
                      Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-3s and the
                      MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new. I
                      couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be surprised
                      if they had it too. I think the only new units that didn't have that three
                      stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
                      switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners). Until the McGuiness era of course.
                      After 1955 when the roads went their separate ways both developed other
                      patterns.

                      Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road units both
                      Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red? Most of the
                      photos I could locate for LV were second generation units and not unlike B&M
                      and MeC showed a wide variety.

                      And I do recall the shared scheme on the L&NW SWs in an article also many
                      years ago, but couldn't quickly find a picture.

                      Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's paint
                      pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a modeler would
                      notice.

                      PKL



                      >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
                      >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                      >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
                      >
                      >
                      >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                      >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                      >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                      >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                      >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to get
                      >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                      >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                      >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                      >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                      >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                      >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                      >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                      >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                      >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                      >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                      >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                      >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                      >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                      >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                      >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                      >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme as
                      >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                      >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                      >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                      >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW said
                      >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                      >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                      >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
                      >
                      >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                      >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                      >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                      >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                      >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                      >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                      >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not much,
                      >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                      >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                      >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                      >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                      >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                      >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                      >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                      >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This sin't
                      >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                      >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                      >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                      >coincidence.
                      >
                      >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                      >deceased equine.
                      >
                      >Mark
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                      >wrote:
                      > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                      >determined by
                      > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
                      >important.
                      > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity
                      >for a
                      > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                      > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in
                      >the
                      > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
                      >PR
                      > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                      >regionally or
                      > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
                      >in spite of
                      > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                      > >
                      > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                      >switchers each
                      > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
                      >reasons shared a
                      > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes.
                      >Nor was
                      > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                      >etc. etc. or
                      > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
                      >from one
                      > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
                      >Prior to
                      > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                      >exceptions were
                      > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
                      >and Upton,
                      > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                      >only
                      > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                      >talking early
                      > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.
                      > >
                      > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
                      >think they
                      > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                      >compare to
                      > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                      > >
                      > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the
                      >designs
                      > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a
                      >plain
                      > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
                      >I am at my
                      > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another
                      >location
                      > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
                      >my
                      > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
                      >reference the
                      > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
                      >schemes did it
                      > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better to
                      >cut the
                      > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.
                      > >
                      > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                      >reserved to
                      > > the individual carriers.
                      > >
                      > > I'll look closer too.
                      > >
                      > > PKL
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                      > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                      > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
                      > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                      >scheme,
                      > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                      > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                      >standard
                      > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                      >racing
                      > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                      >is no
                      > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                      > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                      > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even
                      >more
                      > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
                      > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
                      > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
                      > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for
                      >the
                      > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                      >striping
                      > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements
                      >did
                      > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                      >variations
                      > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments
                      >or
                      > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
                      > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                      > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                      >became
                      > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                      >customer
                      > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
                      > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                      >the
                      > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
                      > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted
                      >it
                      > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
                      > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                      >does
                      > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                      >regardless
                      > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                      >place.
                      > > >
                      > > >Mark
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                      > > >wrote:
                      > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                      > > >resolution to an
                      > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                      > > >correctly, or
                      > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one
                      >of
                      > > >the various
                      > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                      > > >discretion.
                      > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                      >the
                      > > >color FJ&G
                      > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
                      > > >comittee of
                      > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
                      > > >name
                      > > > > traction orange.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                      >alternating
                      > > >colors -
                      > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                      >think of
                      > > >other
                      > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                      >customers
                      > > >to design
                      > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
                      >believe
                      > > >that ALCo
                      > > > > had employees who did the same.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > PKL
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                      > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                      > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                      >scheme, the
                      > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from
                      >the
                      > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                      >is was
                      > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >Walt
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      >_________________________________________________________________
                      > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
                      > > >Sports by
                      > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > _________________________________________________________________
                      > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
                      >protected and
                      > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
                      >

                      _________________________________________________________________
                      FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
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                    • Gino DiCarlo
                      That s not arguing, that s called discussing and that s what this list is for! I m glad I started this and it s entertaining to me!!!! Keep it up! Gino ...
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        That's not arguing, that's called discussing and that's what this list
                        is for!
                        I'm glad I started this and it's entertaining to me!!!! Keep it up!

                        Gino

                        On Apr 1, 2004, at 9:49 PM, Mark wrote:

                        >
                        > This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                        > arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                        > to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                        > take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                        > from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to get
                        > into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                        > F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                        > because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                        > numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                        > Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                        > has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                        > flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                        > schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                        > used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                        > arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                        > but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                        > stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                        > Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                        > scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                        > Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                        > exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme as
                        > was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                        > schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                        > because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                        > scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW said
                        > the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                        > with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                        > embellished upon it. But they didn't.
                        >
                        > Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                        > Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                        > names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                        > a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                        > color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                        > are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                        > other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not much,
                        > and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                        > the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                        > though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                        > embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                        > B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                        > their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                        > frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                        > around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This sin't
                        > because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                        > choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                        > their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                        > coincidence.
                        >
                        > And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                        > deceased equine.
                        >
                        > Mark
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                        > wrote:
                        > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                        > determined by
                        > > the individual railroads.  Where the concepts came from is not
                        > important. 
                        > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity
                        > for a
                        > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                        > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in
                        > the
                        > > various paint schemes.  Imitation is flattery but the individual
                        > PR
                        > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                        > regionally or
                        > > plagiarizing overall.  Yes there can still be found similarities
                        > in spite of
                        > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                        > >
                        > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                        > switchers each
                        > > had their own distinctive pattern.  MeC and B&M for obvious
                        > reasons shared a
                        > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes. 
                        > Nor was
                        > > it like (as opposed to similar)  Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                        > etc. etc. or
                        > > any of them like the other.  They were in fact notably different
                        > from one
                        > > another.   The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme. 
                        > Prior to
                        > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                        > exceptions were
                        > > affiliated with the connecting class one.  Berlin Mills, Grafton
                        > and Upton,
                        > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                        > only
                        > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                        > talking early
                        > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.
                        > >
                        > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units.  I don't
                        > think they
                        > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                        > compare to
                        > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                        > >
                        > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the
                        > designs
                        > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a
                        > plain
                        > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it. 
                        > I am at my
                        > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another
                        > location
                        > > or I would share with you the issue and date.  Neither do I have
                        > my
                        > > Cyclopedias here to reference.  The web is too slow to cross
                        > reference the
                        > > various papint schemes.  The roads that used plain jane paint
                        > schemes did it
                        > > for economy.  After a while as budgets tightened it was better to
                        > cut the
                        > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.
                        > >
                        > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                        > reserved to
                        > > the individual carriers.
                        > >
                        > > I'll look closer too.
                        > >
                        > > PKL
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                        > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                        > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
                        > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                        > scheme,
                        > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                        > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                        > standard
                        > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                        > racing
                        > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                        > is no
                        > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                        > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                        > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even
                        > more
                        > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
                        > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
                        > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
                        > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for
                        > the
                        > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                        > striping
                        > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements
                        > did
                        > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                        > variations
                        > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments
                        > or
                        > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
                        > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                        > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                        > became
                        > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                        > customer
                        > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
                        > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                        > the
                        > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
                        > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted
                        > it
                        > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
                        > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                        > does
                        > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                        > regardless
                        > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                        > place.
                        > > >
                        > > >Mark
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                        > > >wrote:
                        > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                        > > >resolution to an
                        > > > > industry safety issue, visibility.  That design, if I recall
                        > > >correctly, or
                        > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one
                        > of
                        > > >the various
                        > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                        > > >discretion.
                        > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                        > the
                        > > >color FJ&G
                        > > > > painted their trolleys.  Those colors were agreed upon by some
                        > > >comittee of
                        > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc.  Hence the
                        > > >name
                        > > > > traction orange.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                        > alternating
                        > > >colors -
                        > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                        > think of
                        > > >other
                        > > > > roads.  I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                        > customers
                        > > >to design
                        > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels.   Can only
                        > believe
                        > > >that ALCo
                        > > > > had employees who did the same.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > PKL
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                        > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                        > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                        > scheme, the
                        > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from
                        > the
                        > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                        > is was
                        > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >Walt
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > _________________________________________________________________
                        > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
                        > > >Sports by
                        > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > _________________________________________________________________
                        > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
                        > protected and
                        > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Visit Gino's Railpage at
                        > http://www.ginosrailpage.com
                        > Visit The Greater Capital District Railfan Assocation at
                        > http://gcdranet.homelinux.com/
                        > Visit Pete Seftons Lost Landmark Page
                        > http://www.lostlandmarks.org
                        > Visit The NERAIL North American Photo Archive at
                        > http://naphotos.nerail.org/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FJGRailroad/
                        >  
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                        Visit Gino's Railpage at
                        http://www.ginosrailpage.com
                      • Mark
                        ... cowl units. ... green and ... 3s and the ... I ... surprised ... They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad yellow (dulux gold)
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                          wrote:
                          > Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV
                          cowl units.
                          > B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth
                          green and
                          > Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-
                          3s and the
                          > MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new.
                          I
                          > couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be
                          surprised
                          > if they had it too.

                          They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad
                          yellow (dulux gold) stripe.

                          The point here is that the scheme originated with the EMD F's and was
                          adopted as standard by the B&M for all road units. Whether the scheme
                          (i.e., paint layout) was designed specifically for the B&M or was
                          already on paper at EMD I don't know for sure, but I do believe B&M
                          was the first of many users of this paint layout.

                          I think the only new units that didn't have that three
                          > stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
                          > switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners).

                          As well as the E's and many of the EMD switchers which got the black
                          switcher scheme.


                          >
                          > Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road
                          units both
                          > Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red?

                          Most LV units in the 40s-60s wore Cornell red w/ black stripes in the
                          B&M-style scheme. This includes EMD F's , ALco FAs, ALso RS-2s and
                          switchers, Baldwin switchers, EMD switchers, etc. Pre-F unit diesels
                          wore either very simple schemes or on EMD switchers, an odd maroon
                          and grey with a yellow stripe scheme -which was also a standard
                          EMD/EMC paint layout- which appeared on several other road's early
                          (SW, SC, SW-1, NW-2, etc.) units as well, in various colors, and
                          would appear to be an adaptation of the EMD/EMC demonstrator scheme
                          that was applied to said early switcher demo units. Once the EMD F's
                          came along that became the standard paint scheme.

                          >
                          > Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's
                          paint
                          > pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a
                          modeler would
                          > notice.

                          I am a modeler, and I would say that in terms of paint arrangement,
                          disregarding colors, lettering, and a few minor embellishemnts or
                          deletions, the B&M siwtcher scheme, the FJ&G scheme, the L&BR and G&U
                          44 tonners, and a host of other units, are painted in about the same
                          layout. Perhaps one needs to think not as a modeller who needs a
                          different decal set for each scheme, but as the Alco-GE man who drew
                          up the schemes on paper or laid out the stencils and masking for
                          painting to realize that any of those schemes would be pretty
                          repetitive with the exceptions of things like colors used, lettering
                          of course, stripe width, addition or subtartion of a second body
                          color and a separating stripe, etc.

                          Line up a D&H RS-3 in black w/ yellow stripes and a SOO RS-1 in black
                          with yellow stripes and an Alco demontsrator in green w/ yellow
                          stripes,and Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion RS-1 in black w/yellow
                          stripes and a Chestnut Ridge Ry. S-2 in blackw/yellow stripes and a
                          horde of industry,or shortline-owned Alco switchers in black or green
                          w/ yellow stripes, and once again you'd see the only differences in
                          the job the painter (or artist who drew them up) was doing involved
                          colors, lettering, and in a few cases the width of the stripes and
                          the addition or deletion of a horizontal yellow pinstripe running
                          around the upper hood. You'll also notice how most of the schemes I
                          mentioned above use black and yellow, so here we're talking about a
                          mass of units for a variety of customers, all painted in the same
                          layout as the Alco demonstrators with only very slight variations,
                          and usually painted black and yellow too! If that does not constitute
                          a standard paint scheme offered by a builder, I don't know what does!
                          The buyers could of course choose not to accept it (i.e., instead of
                          Henry Ford's "any color you like as long as it's black" quote
                          regarding the Model T, Alco's was more like "any paint scheme you
                          want as long as it's black with yellow end stripes, unless you want
                          us to change the colors for you, or if you REALLy want to we can do
                          something completely different.")

                          I figured I'd add a little more since we are "discussing" and
                          not "arguing"!

                          Mark


                          >
                          > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                          > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                          > >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                          > >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                          > >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                          > >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                          > >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to
                          get
                          > >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                          > >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                          > >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                          > >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                          > >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                          > >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                          > >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                          > >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                          > >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                          > >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                          > >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                          > >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                          > >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                          > >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                          > >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                          > >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme
                          as
                          > >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                          > >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                          > >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                          > >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW
                          said
                          > >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                          > >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                          > >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
                          > >
                          > >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                          > >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                          > >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                          > >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                          > >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                          > >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                          > >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not
                          much,
                          > >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                          > >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                          > >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                          > >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                          > >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                          > >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                          > >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                          > >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This
                          sin't
                          > >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                          > >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                          > >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                          > >coincidence.
                          > >
                          > >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                          > >deceased equine.
                          > >
                          > >Mark
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                          > >wrote:
                          > > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                          > >determined by
                          > > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
                          > >important.
                          > > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in
                          creativity
                          > >for a
                          > > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                          > > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences
                          in
                          > >the
                          > > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
                          > >PR
                          > > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                          > >regionally or
                          > > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
                          > >in spite of
                          > > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                          > > >
                          > > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                          > >switchers each
                          > > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
                          > >reasons shared a
                          > > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was
                          stripes.
                          > >Nor was
                          > > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                          > >etc. etc. or
                          > > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
                          > >from one
                          > > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
                          > >Prior to
                          > > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                          > >exceptions were
                          > > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
                          > >and Upton,
                          > > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                          > >only
                          > > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                          > >talking early
                          > > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44
                          tonners.
                          > > >
                          > > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
                          > >think they
                          > > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                          > >compare to
                          > > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                          > > >
                          > > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on
                          the
                          > >designs
                          > > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have
                          been a
                          > >plain
                          > > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
                          > >I am at my
                          > > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at
                          another
                          > >location
                          > > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
                          > >my
                          > > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
                          > >reference the
                          > > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
                          > >schemes did it
                          > > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better
                          to
                          > >cut the
                          > > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important
                          projects.
                          > > >
                          > > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                          > >reserved to
                          > > > the individual carriers.
                          > > >
                          > > > I'll look closer too.
                          > > >
                          > > > PKL
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                          > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                          > > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard
                          paint
                          > > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                          > >scheme,
                          > > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                          > > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                          > >standard
                          > > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                          > >racing
                          > > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                          > >is no
                          > > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                          > > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                          > > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were
                          even
                          > >more
                          > > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely
                          no
                          > > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M
                          paint
                          > > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and
                          Quebec,
                          > > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except
                          for
                          > >the
                          > > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                          > >striping
                          > > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic
                          arrangements
                          > >did
                          > > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                          > >variations
                          > > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to
                          embellishments
                          > >or
                          > > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the
                          railroads
                          > > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                          > > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                          > >became
                          > > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                          > >customer
                          > > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe*
                          was
                          > > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                          > >the
                          > > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer
                          that
                          > > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who
                          wanted
                          > >it
                          > > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making
                          the
                          > > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                          > >does
                          > > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                          > >regardless
                          > > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                          > >place.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >Mark
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner"
                          <pklarner@h...>
                          > > > >wrote:
                          > > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                          > > > >resolution to an
                          > > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                          > > > >correctly, or
                          > > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by
                          one
                          > >of
                          > > > >the various
                          > > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                          > > > >discretion.
                          > > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                          > >the
                          > > > >color FJ&G
                          > > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by
                          some
                          > > > >comittee of
                          > > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence
                          the
                          > > > >name
                          > > > > > traction orange.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                          > >alternating
                          > > > >colors -
                          > > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                          > >think of
                          > > > >other
                          > > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                          > >customers
                          > > > >to design
                          > > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
                          > >believe
                          > > > >that ALCo
                          > > > > > had employees who did the same.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > PKL
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                          > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                          > > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                          > >scheme, the
                          > > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE
                          from
                          > >the
                          > > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                          > >is was
                          > > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >Walt
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > >_________________________________________________________________
                          > > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at
                          MSN
                          > > > >Sports by
                          > > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          _________________________________________________________________
                          > > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
                          > >protected and
                          > > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
                          > >
                          >
                          > _________________________________________________________________
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                        • paul larner
                          I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed from my statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a recommendation of a railroad
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed from my
                            statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a recommendation of a
                            railroad management association answering a call for improved visibility for
                            diesels and gas cars. That was my initial position as opposed to the design
                            being created or evolving among the manufacturers; I stand with that
                            "belief" (because I am not at home with my reference material).

                            I'll be north next week and try to recall to dig into the why, who and when
                            of that recommendation.

                            Considering the basic shape of the diesel locomotive, it is amazing how many
                            design variations were created while maintaining fluidity with the passenger
                            train. Have any outclassed the designs created for the passenger locomotive
                            fleets initially and for those installed as the railroads developed their
                            modern fleets following WW2?

                            PKL


                            >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
                            >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                            >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:37:32 -0000
                            >
                            >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                            >wrote:
                            > > Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV
                            >cowl units.
                            > > B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth
                            >green and
                            > > Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-
                            >3s and the
                            > > MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new.
                            >I
                            > > couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be
                            >surprised
                            > > if they had it too.
                            >
                            >They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad
                            >yellow (dulux gold) stripe.
                            >
                            >The point here is that the scheme originated with the EMD F's and was
                            >adopted as standard by the B&M for all road units. Whether the scheme
                            >(i.e., paint layout) was designed specifically for the B&M or was
                            >already on paper at EMD I don't know for sure, but I do believe B&M
                            >was the first of many users of this paint layout.
                            >
                            >I think the only new units that didn't have that three
                            > > stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
                            > > switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners).
                            >
                            >As well as the E's and many of the EMD switchers which got the black
                            >switcher scheme.
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road
                            >units both
                            > > Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red?
                            >
                            >Most LV units in the 40s-60s wore Cornell red w/ black stripes in the
                            >B&M-style scheme. This includes EMD F's , ALco FAs, ALso RS-2s and
                            >switchers, Baldwin switchers, EMD switchers, etc. Pre-F unit diesels
                            >wore either very simple schemes or on EMD switchers, an odd maroon
                            >and grey with a yellow stripe scheme -which was also a standard
                            >EMD/EMC paint layout- which appeared on several other road's early
                            >(SW, SC, SW-1, NW-2, etc.) units as well, in various colors, and
                            >would appear to be an adaptation of the EMD/EMC demonstrator scheme
                            >that was applied to said early switcher demo units. Once the EMD F's
                            >came along that became the standard paint scheme.
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's
                            >paint
                            > > pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a
                            >modeler would
                            > > notice.
                            >
                            >I am a modeler, and I would say that in terms of paint arrangement,
                            >disregarding colors, lettering, and a few minor embellishemnts or
                            >deletions, the B&M siwtcher scheme, the FJ&G scheme, the L&BR and G&U
                            >44 tonners, and a host of other units, are painted in about the same
                            >layout. Perhaps one needs to think not as a modeller who needs a
                            >different decal set for each scheme, but as the Alco-GE man who drew
                            >up the schemes on paper or laid out the stencils and masking for
                            >painting to realize that any of those schemes would be pretty
                            >repetitive with the exceptions of things like colors used, lettering
                            >of course, stripe width, addition or subtartion of a second body
                            >color and a separating stripe, etc.
                            >
                            >Line up a D&H RS-3 in black w/ yellow stripes and a SOO RS-1 in black
                            >with yellow stripes and an Alco demontsrator in green w/ yellow
                            >stripes,and Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion RS-1 in black w/yellow
                            >stripes and a Chestnut Ridge Ry. S-2 in blackw/yellow stripes and a
                            >horde of industry,or shortline-owned Alco switchers in black or green
                            >w/ yellow stripes, and once again you'd see the only differences in
                            >the job the painter (or artist who drew them up) was doing involved
                            >colors, lettering, and in a few cases the width of the stripes and
                            >the addition or deletion of a horizontal yellow pinstripe running
                            >around the upper hood. You'll also notice how most of the schemes I
                            >mentioned above use black and yellow, so here we're talking about a
                            >mass of units for a variety of customers, all painted in the same
                            >layout as the Alco demonstrators with only very slight variations,
                            >and usually painted black and yellow too! If that does not constitute
                            >a standard paint scheme offered by a builder, I don't know what does!
                            >The buyers could of course choose not to accept it (i.e., instead of
                            >Henry Ford's "any color you like as long as it's black" quote
                            >regarding the Model T, Alco's was more like "any paint scheme you
                            >want as long as it's black with yellow end stripes, unless you want
                            >us to change the colors for you, or if you REALLy want to we can do
                            >something completely different.")
                            >
                            >I figured I'd add a little more since we are "discussing" and
                            >not "arguing"!
                            >
                            >Mark
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                            > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                            > > >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                            > > >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                            > > >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                            > > >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                            > > >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to
                            >get
                            > > >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                            > > >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                            > > >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                            > > >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                            > > >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                            > > >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                            > > >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                            > > >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                            > > >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                            > > >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                            > > >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                            > > >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                            > > >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                            > > >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                            > > >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                            > > >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme
                            >as
                            > > >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                            > > >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                            > > >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                            > > >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW
                            >said
                            > > >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                            > > >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                            > > >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
                            > > >
                            > > >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                            > > >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                            > > >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                            > > >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                            > > >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                            > > >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                            > > >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not
                            >much,
                            > > >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                            > > >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                            > > >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                            > > >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                            > > >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                            > > >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                            > > >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                            > > >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This
                            >sin't
                            > > >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                            > > >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                            > > >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                            > > >coincidence.
                            > > >
                            > > >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                            > > >deceased equine.
                            > > >
                            > > >Mark
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                            > > >wrote:
                            > > > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                            > > >determined by
                            > > > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
                            > > >important.
                            > > > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in
                            >creativity
                            > > >for a
                            > > > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                            > > > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences
                            >in
                            > > >the
                            > > > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
                            > > >PR
                            > > > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                            > > >regionally or
                            > > > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
                            > > >in spite of
                            > > > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                            > > >switchers each
                            > > > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
                            > > >reasons shared a
                            > > > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was
                            >stripes.
                            > > >Nor was
                            > > > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                            > > >etc. etc. or
                            > > > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
                            > > >from one
                            > > > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
                            > > >Prior to
                            > > > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                            > > >exceptions were
                            > > > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
                            > > >and Upton,
                            > > > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                            > > >only
                            > > > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                            > > >talking early
                            > > > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44
                            >tonners.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
                            > > >think they
                            > > > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                            > > >compare to
                            > > > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on
                            >the
                            > > >designs
                            > > > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have
                            >been a
                            > > >plain
                            > > > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
                            > > >I am at my
                            > > > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at
                            >another
                            > > >location
                            > > > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
                            > > >my
                            > > > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
                            > > >reference the
                            > > > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
                            > > >schemes did it
                            > > > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better
                            >to
                            > > >cut the
                            > > > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important
                            >projects.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                            > > >reserved to
                            > > > > the individual carriers.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I'll look closer too.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > PKL
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                            > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                            > > > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard
                            >paint
                            > > > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                            > > >scheme,
                            > > > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                            > > > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                            > > >standard
                            > > > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                            > > >racing
                            > > > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                            > > >is no
                            > > > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                            > > > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                            > > > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were
                            >even
                            > > >more
                            > > > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely
                            >no
                            > > > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M
                            >paint
                            > > > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and
                            >Quebec,
                            > > > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except
                            >for
                            > > >the
                            > > > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                            > > >striping
                            > > > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic
                            >arrangements
                            > > >did
                            > > > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                            > > >variations
                            > > > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to
                            >embellishments
                            > > >or
                            > > > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the
                            >railroads
                            > > > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                            > > > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                            > > >became
                            > > > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                            > > >customer
                            > > > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe*
                            >was
                            > > > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                            > > >the
                            > > > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer
                            >that
                            > > > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who
                            >wanted
                            > > >it
                            > > > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making
                            >the
                            > > > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                            > > >does
                            > > > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                            > > >regardless
                            > > > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                            > > >place.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >Mark
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner"
                            ><pklarner@h...>
                            > > > > >wrote:
                            > > > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                            > > > > >resolution to an
                            > > > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                            > > > > >correctly, or
                            > > > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by
                            >one
                            > > >of
                            > > > > >the various
                            > > > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                            > > > > >discretion.
                            > > > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                            > > >the
                            > > > > >color FJ&G
                            > > > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by
                            >some
                            > > > > >comittee of
                            > > > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence
                            >the
                            > > > > >name
                            > > > > > > traction orange.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                            > > >alternating
                            > > > > >colors -
                            > > > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                            > > >think of
                            > > > > >other
                            > > > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                            > > >customers
                            > > > > >to design
                            > > > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
                            > > >believe
                            > > > > >that ALCo
                            > > > > > > had employees who did the same.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > PKL
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                            > > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                            > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                            > > >scheme, the
                            > > > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE
                            >from
                            > > >the
                            > > > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                            > > >is was
                            > > > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >Walt
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > >_________________________________________________________________
                            > > > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at
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                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            >_________________________________________________________________
                            > > > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
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                          • Mark
                            ... from my ... recommendation of a ... visibility for ... the design ... that ... I do not disagree at all with the above, but I do maintain that there were
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
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                              --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                              wrote:
                              > I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed
                              from my
                              > statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a
                              recommendation of a
                              > railroad management association answering a call for improved
                              visibility for
                              > diesels and gas cars. That was my initial position as opposed to
                              the design
                              > being created or evolving among the manufacturers; I stand with
                              that
                              > "belief" (because I am not at home with my reference material).

                              I do not disagree at all with the above, but I do maintain that
                              there were specific applications of said "recommendation" that can
                              be attributed to a layout drwan up by the builder and then offered
                              as a standardized design to any customer who wanted it. That is the
                              core of my "argument", that there were in fact paint layouts that
                              were offered "off the shelf" by the builders, and that not all apint
                              schemes were designed by or for a specific railroad, and that the
                              similarities between the early paint schemes of several railroads
                              can be atributed to these standard painting arrangements offered by
                              the builders, not simply "coincidence".

                              Mark
                            • Charles Woolever
                              There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W maroon/gray/yellow was
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
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                                There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There
                                were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W
                                maroon/gray/yellow was designed by EMD. What was interesting about all
                                of the drawings was seeing other roads in same schemes, like Frisco in
                                the DL&W colors or whatever.

                                Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                                and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                                roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                                paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                                think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!

                                Charles
                              • Dicarlo, Gino
                                That s was pretty much what I was wondering Charles. I was making the assumption on B&W photos and just figured there was a standard paint job. When I did
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
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                                  That's was pretty much what I was wondering Charles. I was
                                  making the assumption on B&W photos and just figured there was
                                  a standard paint job. When I did finally see the colors of the
                                  Lowville & Beaver River 44-tonner I realized how different the
                                  paint was from the FJ&G...

                                  Gino

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Charles Woolever [mailto:yahoo@...]
                                  Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 3:52 PM
                                  To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job


                                  Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                                  and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                                  roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                                  paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                                  think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!

                                  Charles
                                • paul larner
                                  To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps some more
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
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                                    To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many
                                    of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps
                                    some more (there are thousands) do a google search for "engine shop." The
                                    first item that comes up on my search is a site titled Engine Shop
                                    containing drawings with colors. 44 tonners, 70 tonners, E-6, E-8, F-7,
                                    BL-2 they're all there, I haen't looked at ALCo yet. Must be an identical
                                    scheme in there some where, you decide. Similar, how could they not be in
                                    many ways. Alike, take a look; what can I say. LV and B&M are in there.

                                    The url is usloki.tripod.com/ but that doesn't et you there; needs more.
                                    The google search gets me there and it can be saved as a favorite.

                                    PKL


                                    >From: "Charles Woolever" <yahoo@...>
                                    >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                                    >Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 19:51:56 -0000
                                    >
                                    >There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There
                                    >were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W
                                    >maroon/gray/yellow was designed by EMD. What was interesting about all
                                    >of the drawings was seeing other roads in same schemes, like Frisco in
                                    >the DL&W colors or whatever.
                                    >
                                    >Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                                    >and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                                    >roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                                    >paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                                    >think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!
                                    >
                                    >Charles
                                    >

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                                  • Mark
                                    ... the ... you d ... Thank you Charles, at least somebody else sees what I see when they look at all those engines that were painted with most of the same
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                      > and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all
                                      the
                                      > roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                                      > paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better,
                                      you'd
                                      > think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!
                                      >
                                      > Charles


                                      Thank you Charles, at least somebody else sees what I see when they
                                      look at all those engines that were painted with most of the same
                                      masking and stencils! It seems that what we have here is people
                                      getting "blinded" by the different COLORS and getting distracted by
                                      the presence or lack of separating stripes, etc. and therefore not
                                      seeing that if you took away the pinstripes and separatung stripes,
                                      and took the colors away and made everything tones of gray (or even
                                      better, line drawings showing nothing more than the separation of the
                                      two colors-i.e., the masking lines), the SCHEMES are similar if not
                                      in many cases identical.

                                      Gino seems to have hit the nail on the head without realizing it when
                                      he said he didn't realize HOW DIFFERENT the L&BR and FJ&G schemes
                                      were until he saw them both in COLOR. Yes, there are differences, but
                                      there are also striking similarities. Look at them in B&W, take away
                                      the saparting stripes on the FJ&G unit, and about all that's
                                      different is the termination of the stripes. I am not saying these
                                      schemes are the SAME, I am saying they are strikingly similar purely
                                      from a layout standpoint for a reason other than coincidence.


                                      To say this similarity is because, well, there isn't that much you
                                      can do differently, is to say that stripes must be the same width, at
                                      the same angle, start and end at the same points, etc. Stripes can be
                                      anywhere from 0-90 degrees, anywhere (within reason) from 1/2 inch to
                                      several feet wide, they could be visible only in an end view, wrap
                                      around the entire locomtive, or anywhere in between, etc. Just
                                      because all those engines with the same width stripes at the same
                                      angles (or radii as the case may be) starting and ending at the same
                                      points are all different colors or some of them have a separating
                                      stripe, does not make them the result of individual design, starting
                                      from scratch, by or for each owner. Also keep in mind here that we
                                      are talking only about 40s-era as-delivered schemes from the
                                      builders, not later schemes or railroad-applied or modified versions
                                      of the builder schemes. So while there are certainly plenty of
                                      totally unrelated, individually designed schemes out there, the
                                      schemes in question, as applied to 1st generation diesels by the
                                      builders when new, are very often variations on standard designs.

                                      I guess maybe we all just have differing ideas of what constitutes a
                                      significant "difference" in a paint scheme.

                                      Mark
                                    • Dicarlo, Gino
                                      I did a search on engine shop and that site is awesome!!! Check it out!!! It would be great to see some FJG engines on there! GINO ... From: paul larner
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Apr 6, 2004
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                                        I did a search on "engine shop" and that site is awesome!!!
                                        Check it out!!! It would be great to see some FJG engines
                                        on there!

                                        GINO

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: paul larner [mailto:pklarner@...]
                                        Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:02 AM
                                        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job


                                        To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many
                                        of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps
                                        some more (there are thousands) do a google search for "engine shop." The
                                        first item that comes up on my search is a site titled Engine Shop
                                        containing drawings with colors. 44 tonners, 70 tonners, E-6, E-8, F-7,
                                        BL-2 they're all there, I haen't looked at ALCo yet. Must be an identical
                                        scheme in there some where, you decide. Similar, how could they not be in
                                        many ways. Alike, take a look; what can I say. LV and B&M are in there.

                                        The url is usloki.tripod.com/ but that doesn't et you there; needs more.
                                        The google search gets me there and it can be saved as a favorite.

                                        PKL
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