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NSL Cars

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  • Dicarlo, Gino
    Paul, Can you give us the history behind the NSL cars on the FJG? What the heck was the idea behind per-diem cars? Gino
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 27 7:36 PM
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      Paul,

      Can you give us the history behind the NSL cars on the FJG? What the heck
      was the idea behind per-diem cars?

      Gino
    • paul larner
      The NSL cars were owned by a group of investors who purchased box cars for the revenue they would receive from the perdiem. THe AAR in response to a need for
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 27 10:34 PM
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        The NSL cars were owned by a group of investors who purchased box cars for
        the revenue they would receive from the perdiem. THe AAR in response to a
        need for box cars, not being ordered by the railroads, created a thing
        called incentive per diem to encourage companies to rebuild and buy new cars
        for general service.

        The result was a proliferation of little railroads owning huge fleets of box
        cars. These little railroads came about two ways. One, and that which we
        see today, is acquisition of spin offs, read abandonments, from the major
        carriers, and secondly, in order to earn the per diem on the freight cars,
        they had to be railroad owned. The gimmick for the investor was to acquire
        a railroad, any railroad, then lease a bunch of box cars and slip them into
        the national pool. This was a great deal until the class ones got smart and
        were able to change the rules again in the early eighties, if I recall
        correctly. After that the box cars became albatross to the investment
        groups and most, if not all the investors began to look for their shirts.
        They had a good ride for about 10 years, but as we've seen in any of these
        too good to be true schemes they are, unless you're smart and not so greedy
        to sense when to get out. Containerization was the primary factor in making
        the box car obsolete.

        Now to the NSL, Norwood and St. Lawrence. They had more cars than track to
        hold them and sought railroads to holdtheir cars which were anathema to the
        class ones. We had a couple sidings full of them on teh CV for a while and
        actually acquired 26 of the things. They were called the Buncher cars but I
        can't remember why. Maybe the name of the guy or company that made the deal
        with Grand Trunk then forced them on us. They were comparatively junk.

        The 238 box cars that carried the FJ&G reporting mark were owned by Harvey
        Enterprises, Inc. of Huntington, N.Y. and subject to a security interest by
        Chemical Bank. The FJ&G leased the cars in March 1975, according to my
        notes. There was no need on the FJ&G for this many cars and ultimately they
        were largely leased again to the Lehigh Valley and Delaware & Hudson. How
        many each road took I don't know. This was a period when the industry was
        desperately short of general purpose box cars, a situation that continued
        into the eighties. And this is when and how the money was made.

        The cars acquired for a specific on line need were the all door cars,
        29000-29019. They carried the FJG reporting mark but they were DO cars.
        With estimates of three to five carloads shipped from Broadalbin each week,
        the twenty cars would have been close to adequate if they didn't go too far.

        I think there is another epistle on this in the archives.

        PKL


        >From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
        >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        >To: "FJGrailroad (E-mail)" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
        >Subject: [FJGRailroad] NSL Cars
        >Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:36:54 -0600
        >
        >Paul,
        >
        >Can you give us the history behind the NSL cars on the FJG? What the heck
        >was the idea behind per-diem cars?
        >
        >Gino


        _________________________________________________________________
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      • joseph Klapkowski
        The only thing I would add to this is that there were lessors who leased the shortline railroad s name in order to get the favorable pool pricing. I financed a
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 28 5:00 AM
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          The only thing I would add to this is that there were lessors who leased the
          shortline railroad's name in order to get the favorable pool pricing. I
          financed a lot of plate C paper cars and the railroad didn't actually own
          the cars the lessor did. Oddly enough this lessor had 150 of these cars but
          thier primary business was and still is leasing marine containers.....





          >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] NSL Cars
          >Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2003 01:34:18 -0500
          >
          >The NSL cars were owned by a group of investors who purchased box cars for
          >the revenue they would receive from the perdiem. THe AAR in response to a
          >need for box cars, not being ordered by the railroads, created a thing
          >called incentive per diem to encourage companies to rebuild and buy new
          >cars
          >for general service.
          >
          >The result was a proliferation of little railroads owning huge fleets of
          >box
          >cars. These little railroads came about two ways. One, and that which we
          >see today, is acquisition of spin offs, read abandonments, from the major
          >carriers, and secondly, in order to earn the per diem on the freight cars,
          >they had to be railroad owned. The gimmick for the investor was to acquire
          >a railroad, any railroad, then lease a bunch of box cars and slip them into
          >the national pool. This was a great deal until the class ones got smart
          >and
          >were able to change the rules again in the early eighties, if I recall
          >correctly. After that the box cars became albatross to the investment
          >groups and most, if not all the investors began to look for their shirts.
          >They had a good ride for about 10 years, but as we've seen in any of these
          >too good to be true schemes they are, unless you're smart and not so greedy
          >to sense when to get out. Containerization was the primary factor in
          >making
          >the box car obsolete.
          >
          >Now to the NSL, Norwood and St. Lawrence. They had more cars than track to
          >hold them and sought railroads to holdtheir cars which were anathema to the
          >class ones. We had a couple sidings full of them on teh CV for a while and
          >actually acquired 26 of the things. They were called the Buncher cars but
          >I
          >can't remember why. Maybe the name of the guy or company that made the
          >deal
          >with Grand Trunk then forced them on us. They were comparatively junk.
          >
          >The 238 box cars that carried the FJ&G reporting mark were owned by Harvey
          >Enterprises, Inc. of Huntington, N.Y. and subject to a security interest by
          >Chemical Bank. The FJ&G leased the cars in March 1975, according to my
          >notes. There was no need on the FJ&G for this many cars and ultimately
          >they
          >were largely leased again to the Lehigh Valley and Delaware & Hudson. How
          >many each road took I don't know. This was a period when the industry was
          >desperately short of general purpose box cars, a situation that continued
          >into the eighties. And this is when and how the money was made.
          >
          >The cars acquired for a specific on line need were the all door cars,
          >29000-29019. They carried the FJG reporting mark but they were DO cars.
          >With estimates of three to five carloads shipped from Broadalbin each week,
          >the twenty cars would have been close to adequate if they didn't go too
          >far.
          >
          >I think there is another epistle on this in the archives.
          >
          >PKL
          >
          >
          > >From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
          > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: "FJGrailroad (E-mail)" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
          > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] NSL Cars
          > >Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2003 21:36:54 -0600
          > >
          > >Paul,
          > >
          > >Can you give us the history behind the NSL cars on the FJG? What the
          >heck
          > >was the idea behind per-diem cars?
          > >
          > >Gino
          >
          >
          >_________________________________________________________________
          >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
          >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
          >


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        • Gino's Railpage
          Hi guys, I saw a boxcar last night that was a former NSL car. At least it was one of the lines owned by the people who owned the NSL. It had the marks and
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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            Hi guys,

            I saw a boxcar last night that was a former NSL car. At least it was one
            of the lines owned by the people who owned the NSL. It had the marks
            and logos painted over, but it sure was what I think it was. It was a 50 ft
            car and I'm not sure if the FJ&G's per-diem NSL cars were more than 40
            ft. cars. Anyone know?

            Also, it's been mentioned on this group that the former DO cars had
            journal boxes that were incompatible with todays regulations. Are there
            any 40 ft. cars out there today in action?

            Gino

            --
            www.ginosrailpage.com
            www.fjgrr.org
          • Aaron Keller
            Gino, The Escanaba and Lake Superior has a large fleet of ex- St. Lawrence cars in service over here. There are dozens of them around Green Bay all the time.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 21, 2006
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              Gino,

              The Escanaba and Lake Superior has a large fleet of ex- St. Lawrence cars
              in service over here. There are dozens of them around Green Bay all the
              time.

              -Aaron


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Gino's Railpage" <fjgrailroad@...>
              To: <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 4:17 PM
              Subject: [FJGRailroad] NSL Cars


              > Hi guys,
              >
              > I saw a boxcar last night that was a former NSL car. At least it was one
              > of the lines owned by the people who owned the NSL. It had the marks
              > and logos painted over, but it sure was what I think it was. It was a 50
              > ft
              > car and I'm not sure if the FJ&G's per-diem NSL cars were more than 40
              > ft. cars. Anyone know?
              >
              > Also, it's been mentioned on this group that the former DO cars had
              > journal boxes that were incompatible with todays regulations. Are there
              > any 40 ft. cars out there today in action?
              >
              > Gino
              >
              > --
              > www.ginosrailpage.com
              > www.fjgrr.org
              >
            • Paul Charland
              Hi Gino and Aaron, At the height of Shortline Fever the NSL owned over 2000 50 boxcars under the Incentive per Diem program. There were so many railroads
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 22, 2006
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                Hi Gino and Aaron,

                At the height of "Shortline Fever" the NSL owned over 2000 50' boxcars
                under the "Incentive per Diem" program. There were so many railroads
                involved in this program they could not get a builder to build cars for
                them at a reasonable time so they started building them themselves (cars
                came as "kits" and were assembled in Ogdensburg but NSL). The couldn't
                buy enough trucks so the had a builder in Germany build trucks to North
                American standards and ship them to the port of Ogdensburg.

                The Incentive per Diem program was to increase the supply of decent
                boxcars and any money a railroad made had to go back into increasing
                their fleet of boxcars. This was a really big success and NSL was one
                of the more successful participants until the program came to an abrupt
                halt one day as there was a glut of boxcars out there (April 1st 1981 if
                I recall). Almost over night these per diem cars were returned to their
                owners. When you have 20 miles (yes, miles) of 50' boxcars returned to
                you in about a two week period and you only have about 12 miles of
                mainline you start getting into trouble. The NSL was forced to pay many
                railroads in the northeast to store large numbers of cars. Just off the
                top of my head I remember see NSL cars stored on Conrail at Massena and
                Watertown NY, Waterbury VT on the CV and from reading this list, the
                FJ&G also stored NSL cars, I'm sure there were many others. This lead to
                bargain basement prices for fairly new boxcars in pretty good condition
                and by the summer of '81 you could see ex-NSL boxcars running around
                with new reporting marks. Some of the lines that took advantage of
                picking up cheap NSL cars were CN, CP, ONT, CV, RBOX, CNW, CR, and I
                think D&H, pretty sure there were others at the time, I still see these
                cars go by with strange reporting marks that didn't exist back in the '80s.

                Paul :-)

                Aaron Keller wrote:
                > Gino,
                >
                > The Escanaba and Lake Superior has a large fleet of ex- St. Lawrence cars
                > in service over here. There are dozens of them around Green Bay all the
                > time.
                >
                > -Aaron
              • Dicarlo, Gino
                I m know my message wasn t very clear. I guess I was wondering if this Car I saw the other day was of the same batch as earlier NSL cars. So, I take it Paul,
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 22, 2006
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                  I'm know my message wasn't very clear. I guess I was wondering if this
                  Car I saw the other day was of the same batch as earlier NSL cars. So,
                  I take it Paul, that you're saying this car I saw could be from the old
                  Batch?

                  If this is so, did a modification occur with these cars to bring them
                  Up to current standards?

                  Gino

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Paul Charland
                  Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 7:27 AM
                  To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] NSL Cars

                  Hi Gino and Aaron,

                  At the height of "Shortline Fever" the NSL owned over 2000 50' boxcars
                  under the "Incentive per Diem" program. There were so many railroads
                  involved in this program they could not get a builder to build cars for
                  them at a reasonable time so they started building them themselves (cars
                  came as "kits" and were assembled in Ogdensburg but NSL). The couldn't
                  buy enough trucks so the had a builder in Germany build trucks to North
                  American standards and ship them to the port of Ogdensburg.

                  The Incentive per Diem program was to increase the supply of decent
                  boxcars and any money a railroad made had to go back into increasing
                  their fleet of boxcars. This was a really big success and NSL was one
                  of the more successful participants until the program came to an abrupt
                  halt one day as there was a glut of boxcars out there (April 1st 1981 if
                  I recall). Almost over night these per diem cars were returned to their
                  owners. When you have 20 miles (yes, miles) of 50' boxcars returned to
                  you in about a two week period and you only have about 12 miles of
                  mainline you start getting into trouble. The NSL was forced to pay many
                  railroads in the northeast to store large numbers of cars. Just off the
                  top of my head I remember see NSL cars stored on Conrail at Massena and
                  Watertown NY, Waterbury VT on the CV and from reading this list, the
                  FJ&G also stored NSL cars, I'm sure there were many others. This lead to
                  bargain basement prices for fairly new boxcars in pretty good condition
                  and by the summer of '81 you could see ex-NSL boxcars running around
                  with new reporting marks. Some of the lines that took advantage of
                  picking up cheap NSL cars were CN, CP, ONT, CV, RBOX, CNW, CR, and I
                  think D&H, pretty sure there were others at the time, I still see these
                  cars go by with strange reporting marks that didn't exist back in the
                  '80s.

                  Paul :-)

                  Aaron Keller wrote:
                  > Gino,
                  >
                  > The Escanaba and Lake Superior has a large fleet of ex- St. Lawrence
                  > cars in service over here. There are dozens of them around Green Bay
                  > all the time.
                  >
                  > -Aaron


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                • Paul Charland
                  Hi Gino, No doubt it was from the original batch of NSL per diem cars from the late 70s and early 80s, I m pretty sure NSL hasn t built or bought any more
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 22, 2006
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                    Hi Gino,

                    No doubt it was from the original batch of NSL per diem cars from the
                    late '70s and early '80s, I'm pretty sure NSL hasn't built or bought any
                    more rolling stock from then on.

                    I didn't see the car so I can't tell you if it's been modified or not.
                    Many railroads who bought the cars did make one visible modification.
                    Just about all NSL cars had a wheel connected to the door and t track
                    the went ten or eleven feet to the right of the door, this was to make
                    it easier to open the door. Worked well but became a costly maintenance
                    problem as the cars got older, so many lines removed the track and wheel
                    assembly. The most distinguishing feature that remains on most of these
                    cars is the square plaque on the door that used to carry the National
                    Railway Utilization Corporation logo.

                    If by "current standards" you are referring to increased height, might
                    be someone out there doing this but I haven't seen any ex-NSL cars
                    converted is such a way... but that doesn't mean they don't exist, just
                    that I haven't seen any myself. At the time of construction back in the
                    late '70s these cars exceeded the "current standard" of the day.

                    Paul :-)

                    Dicarlo, Gino wrote:
                    > I'm know my message wasn't very clear. I guess I was wondering if this
                    > Car I saw the other day was of the same batch as earlier NSL cars. So,
                    > I take it Paul, that you're saying this car I saw could be from the old
                    > Batch?
                    >
                    > If this is so, did a modification occur with these cars to bring them
                    > Up to current standards?
                    >
                    > Gino
                  • Aaron Keller
                    Gino, The FJ&G/LASB boxcars had friction bearing trucks... the NSL cars had roller bearing trucks... if that s what you re getting at. Friction bearing trucks
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 22, 2006
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                      Gino,

                      The FJ&G/LASB boxcars had friction bearing trucks... the NSL cars had
                      roller bearing trucks... if that's what you're getting at.

                      Friction bearing trucks aren't used today.

                      -Aaron
                    • joseph Klapkowski
                      The M&NJ had the same problem. Cars were being returned and they literally had to get out a chainsaw and clear the south end of the M&NJ ROW so they had a
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 22, 2006
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                        The M&NJ had the same problem. Cars were being returned and they literally
                        had to get out a chainsaw and clear the south end of the M&NJ ROW so they
                        had a place to store them. In the M&NJ's case they only used the first five
                        miles of the line so this meant that the south end of the railroad, which
                        had not seen a wheel in the rails in many many years had to be cleared. They
                        discovered that in a couple of places someone had actually removed some of
                        the rails.

                        >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
                        >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] NSL Cars
                        >Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2006 07:26:56 -0400
                        >
                        >Hi Gino and Aaron,
                        >
                        >At the height of "Shortline Fever" the NSL owned over 2000 50' boxcars
                        >under the "Incentive per Diem" program. There were so many railroads
                        >involved in this program they could not get a builder to build cars for
                        >them at a reasonable time so they started building them themselves (cars
                        >came as "kits" and were assembled in Ogdensburg but NSL). The couldn't
                        >buy enough trucks so the had a builder in Germany build trucks to North
                        >American standards and ship them to the port of Ogdensburg.
                        >
                        >The Incentive per Diem program was to increase the supply of decent
                        >boxcars and any money a railroad made had to go back into increasing
                        >their fleet of boxcars. This was a really big success and NSL was one
                        >of the more successful participants until the program came to an abrupt
                        >halt one day as there was a glut of boxcars out there (April 1st 1981 if
                        >I recall). Almost over night these per diem cars were returned to their
                        >owners. When you have 20 miles (yes, miles) of 50' boxcars returned to
                        >you in about a two week period and you only have about 12 miles of
                        >mainline you start getting into trouble. The NSL was forced to pay many
                        >railroads in the northeast to store large numbers of cars. Just off the
                        >top of my head I remember see NSL cars stored on Conrail at Massena and
                        >Watertown NY, Waterbury VT on the CV and from reading this list, the
                        >FJ&G also stored NSL cars, I'm sure there were many others. This lead to
                        >bargain basement prices for fairly new boxcars in pretty good condition
                        >and by the summer of '81 you could see ex-NSL boxcars running around
                        >with new reporting marks. Some of the lines that took advantage of
                        >picking up cheap NSL cars were CN, CP, ONT, CV, RBOX, CNW, CR, and I
                        >think D&H, pretty sure there were others at the time, I still see these
                        >cars go by with strange reporting marks that didn't exist back in the '80s.
                        >
                        >Paul :-)
                        >
                        >Aaron Keller wrote:
                        > > Gino,
                        > >
                        > > The Escanaba and Lake Superior has a large fleet of ex- St. Lawrence
                        >cars
                        > > in service over here. There are dozens of them around Green Bay all the
                        > > time.
                        > >
                        > > -Aaron
                      • Paul Charland
                        I heard at the time this started being a problem for the NSL they had a 100 ton hopper of coal show up at the Conrail interchange in Norwood for the
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 22, 2006
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                          I heard at the time this started being a problem for the NSL they had a
                          100 ton hopper of coal show up at the Conrail interchange in Norwood for
                          the Psychiatric Hospital in Ogdensburg. Took nearly a week to send cars
                          away to be stored on other railroads as well as plugging every siding
                          they could in order to open the mainline up and deliver the car... just
                          in time for the next one to show up!

                          Paul :-)

                          joseph Klapkowski wrote:

                          > The M&NJ had the same problem. Cars were being returned and they literally
                          > had to get out a chainsaw and clear the south end of the M&NJ ROW so they
                          > had a place to store them. In the M&NJ's case they only used the first five
                          > miles of the line so this meant that the south end of the railroad, which
                          > had not seen a wheel in the rails in many many years had to be cleared. They
                          > discovered that in a couple of places someone had actually removed some of
                          > the rails.
                        • oleroadslug
                          ... cars in service over here. There are dozens of them around Green Bay all the time. ... Gino. They come through Appleton to get to Green Bay. However, I
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jul 22, 2006
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                            --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron Keller" <akeller1979@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Gino,
                            >
                            > The Escanaba and Lake Superior has a large fleet of ex- St. Lawrence
                            cars in service over here. There are dozens of them around Green Bay
                            all the time.
                            >
                            > -Aaron
                            >
                            >
                            >Aaron I assume, as well as I can get shots of these cars for you
                            Gino. They come through Appleton to get to Green Bay. However, I don't
                            think they are what your after. Paper service cars now if I'm not
                            mistaken.

                            Bob Schoneman

                            P.S. Aaron- Got your e mail. ;-)
                          • Gino's Railpage
                            Aaron, This is exactly what I m talking about. That s what I was looking for. It was the fact that the FJG/PC cars had friction-bearing trucks making them
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jul 24, 2006
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                              Aaron,
                               
                              This is exactly what I'm talking about.  That's what I was looking for.  It was the fact that the FJG/PC cars had friction-bearing trucks making them incompatible today!  I thought that any car that was over 30 years old couldn't be switched over a class 1 railroad...
                               
                              Gino

                               
                              On 7/22/06, Aaron Keller <akeller1979@...> wrote:

                              Gino,

                              The FJ&G/LASB boxcars had friction bearing trucks... the NSL cars had
                              roller bearing trucks... if that's what you're getting at.

                              Friction bearing trucks aren't used today.

                              -Aaron




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