Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RW&O

Expand Messages
  • joseph Klapkowski
    This is a little bit off topic but I am hoping there is someone on this list who can point me in the right direction. Does anybody know, or know of a resource
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 30, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      This is a little bit off topic but I am hoping there is someone on this
      list who can point me in the right direction. Does anybody know, or know of
      a resource that knows what the origin of the name Hojack is? Also is there
      anyone out there who would have been familiar with the opertaion of the
      Hojack west of Oswego. I was wondering what kind of traffic there might have
      been through the 1960's especially Oswego to Charlotte and Charlotte west to
      Suspension Bridge and when the line ceased being a through route.

      Thanks folks !




      _________________________________________________________________
      MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*.
      http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
      http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf
    • Glenn J. Williams <103424.2304@compuserv
      ... A old NYCer who worked the line years back told me that he had heard that it came from a common greeting in the area: Ho, Jack! How true it is,
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 30, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "joseph Klapkowski"
        <riverlinejoe@h...> wrote:
        > [snip]
        > Does anybody know, or know of
        > a resource that knows what the
        > origin of the name Hojack is?
        > [snip]
        > Thanks folks !

        A old NYCer who worked the line years back told me that he had heard
        that it came from a common greeting in the area: "Ho, Jack!"

        How true it is, respondent knoweth not.

        Glenn
      • paul larner
        Joe, I ve been asking that question a number of years from guys who worked out there, though our contemporaries, not old timers (ok, that s relative Gino, so
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 30, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Joe,

          I've been asking that question a number of years from guys who worked out
          there, though our contemporaries, not old timers (ok, that's relative Gino,
          so what? You'll be old some day too.). I have not yet received an answer I
          choose to accept as final. I received an eMail from the lady who offered
          that RW&O book a few weeks back in which she gave me the explanations
          identified in the book but they are more of the same. I bought the book but
          it has not arrived yet. If I get an explanation which seems more plausible
          than things like it was from a greeting, Ho Jack!; or the name of a mule
          used around the railroad I'll let you know.

          The name seems to have applied to all portions of the RW&O, not aparticular
          line. Hungerford did a history of the road many years ago. If I have it,
          and/or can find it I will see what he says. In the meantime when the book
          arrives, I'll print what it says for the group.

          PKL






          >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >To: dandh@yahoogroups.com, FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com,
          >hudsonriverrail@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [FJGRailroad] RW&O
          >Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:01:36 +0000
          >
          >
          >This is a little bit off topic but I am hoping there is someone on this
          >list who can point me in the right direction. Does anybody know, or know of
          >a resource that knows what the origin of the name Hojack is? Also is there
          >anyone out there who would have been familiar with the opertaion of the
          >Hojack west of Oswego. I was wondering what kind of traffic there might
          >have
          >been through the 1960's especially Oswego to Charlotte and Charlotte west
          >to
          >Suspension Bridge and when the line ceased being a through route.
          >
          >Thanks folks !
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >_________________________________________________________________
          >MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*.
          >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
          >http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf
          >


          _________________________________________________________________
          MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*.
          http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
          http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_eliminateviruses_3mf
        • paul larner
          Regarding the traffic, this is a slightly educated guess that it consisted mostly of through freight traveling on differential rates into New England. The
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 30, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Regarding the traffic, this is a slightly educated guess that it consisted
            mostly of through freight traveling on "differential" rates into New
            England. The roads participating in this traffic would have been the
            Rutland, CV, St.J.& L.C., B&M, MeC. Differential rates made it economical
            for U.S. shippers to use these longer and more complex routes into New
            England (and, I think it was out of New England also) as opposed to shipping
            on the trunk lines. CN, CP and Rut/RWO are the only roads I believe that
            connected the western gateways to NE. After the opening of the Seaway these
            routes gradually dried up, until shut down altogether. I suspect
            differential rates disappeared with deregulation; by 1981 I was on to other
            things. Without these differential rates the Rutland and StJ&LC would have
            gone sooner and the Canadian traffic would have been completely import
            rather than transit. Conversely,the NYC would have kept the four track main
            and the West Shore would have lasted longer, using the B&A and B&M
            respectively into New England.

            PKL







            >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
            >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            >To: dandh@yahoogroups.com, FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com,
            >hudsonriverrail@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [FJGRailroad] RW&O
            >Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:01:36 +0000
            >
            >
            >This is a little bit off topic but I am hoping there is someone on this
            >list who can point me in the right direction. Does anybody know, or know of
            >a resource that knows what the origin of the name Hojack is? Also is there
            >anyone out there who would have been familiar with the opertaion of the
            >Hojack west of Oswego. I was wondering what kind of traffic there might
            >have
            >been through the 1960's especially Oswego to Charlotte and Charlotte west
            >to
            >Suspension Bridge and when the line ceased being a through route.
            >
            >Thanks folks !
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >_________________________________________________________________
            >MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*.
            >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
            >http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf
            >


            _________________________________________________________________
            The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*.
            http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
            http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf
          • paul larner
            That was one of the explanations, but the appelation seems to be too widespread to be the result of a colloquialism. Do you suppose? PKL ...
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 30, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              That was one of the explanations, but the appelation seems to be too
              widespread to be the result of a colloquialism. Do you suppose?

              PKL






              >From: "Glenn J. Williams <103424.2304@...>"
              ><103424.2304@...>
              >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: RW&O
              >Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:14:55 -0000
              >
              >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "joseph Klapkowski"
              ><riverlinejoe@h...> wrote:
              > > [snip]
              > > Does anybody know, or know of
              > > a resource that knows what the
              > > origin of the name Hojack is?
              > > [snip]
              > > Thanks folks !
              >
              >A old NYCer who worked the line years back told me that he had heard
              >that it came from a common greeting in the area: "Ho, Jack!"
              >
              >How true it is, respondent knoweth not.
              >
              > Glenn
              >


              _________________________________________________________________
              The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 3 months FREE*.
              http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
              http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_smartspamprotection_3mf
            • joseph Klapkowski
              ... I can t believe how many responses I have gotten on this. I posted the question to the FJG, DH and Hudson River groups. I am replying to all three lists so
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 30, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
                >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] RW&O
                >Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:06:14 -0500
                >
                >Joe,
                >
                >I've been asking that question a number of years from guys who worked out
                >there, though our contemporaries, not old timers (ok, that's relative
                >Gino,
                >so what? You'll be old some day too.). I have not yet received an answer
                >I
                >choose to accept as final. I received an eMail from the lady who offered
                >that RW&O book a few weeks back in which she gave me the explanations
                >identified in the book but they are more of the same. I bought the book
                >but
                >it has not arrived yet. If I get an explanation which seems more plausible
                >than things like it was from a greeting, Ho Jack!; or the name of a mule
                >used around the railroad I'll let you know.
                >
                >The name seems to have applied to all portions of the RW&O, not aparticular
                >line. Hungerford did a history of the road many years ago. If I have it,
                >and/or can find it I will see what he says. In the meantime when the book
                >arrives, I'll print what it says for the group.
                >
                >PKL
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
                > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: dandh@yahoogroups.com, FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com,
                > >hudsonriverrail@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] RW&O
                > >Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:01:36 +0000
                > >
                > >
                > >This is a little bit off topic but I am hoping there is someone on this
                > >list who can point me in the right direction. Does anybody know, or know
                >of
                > >a resource that knows what the origin of the name Hojack is? Also is
                >there
                > >anyone out there who would have been familiar with the opertaion of the
                > >Hojack west of Oswego. I was wondering what kind of traffic there might
                > >have
                > >been through the 1960's especially Oswego to Charlotte and Charlotte west
                > >to
                > >Suspension Bridge and when the line ceased being a through route.
                > >
                > >Thanks folks !
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >_________________________________________________________________
                > >MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*.
                > >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
                > >http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf
                > >
                >
                >
                >_________________________________________________________________
                >MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 3 months FREE*.
                >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
                >http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_eliminateviruses_3mf
                >
                I can't believe how many responses I have gotten on this. I posted the
                question to the FJG, DH and Hudson River groups.

                I am replying to all three lists so that all may benefit from the
                discourse. Hope I do not annoy anyone being too off topic for either the
                D&H or Hudson River rail lists but I thought it an amusing story.

                For those that don't know the RW&O was supposed to be a principle through
                route from Suspension bridge along the south shore of Lake Ontario through
                Rochester, Oswego, Watertown and then connecting with the Rutland for points
                east.

                The RW&O also was the NYC Adirondack Division west and north of Utica.
                including what is now the mainline to Watertown But NOT the Black River and
                Western. The one piece that I did not really understand is the still extant
                line from Oswego to Fulton and on to Woodard where connection is made with
                the Massena Branch. I believe that the O&W owned and operated the line from
                Fulton North with the RW&O having trackage rights to Oswego. The balance of
                the line to Woodard was owned by the RW&O (if I have my facts correct).

                However for the benefit of those who care this is what I was told by a road
                crew out of Oswego one night. I had gone over to the yard office and
                introduced myself. After a few cigareetes and some small talk i got an
                invitiation to take a ride down to Dewitt and back. About halfway there I
                asked the question and they began to "formulate" answers. The only two I
                actually remember were the one about the wagon stuck on the crossing. The
                other was that there was a farm kid who used to meet the downtrain along the
                ROW around Phoenix. The engineer would call to him as the kid on his mare
                raced the train for a mile or so along the farm land with the engineer
                calling HOOOOOOO Jack !

                I have heard this story several times and so I have kind of adopted it.

                This is one of the few pieces of railroad that has had little attyention
                paid to it except for Hungerfords long out of print book which I must get
                one day.

                By the way the thing that sparked all this interest is I recently acquired
                an RW&O public Timetable. I also have somewhere in the collection an RW&O
                division NYC ETT. The RW&O had as its logo a four leaf clover with the RW&O
                in each leaf and the word Bonheur on the stem which I think means peace or
                good fortune.

                When I went to school in Oswego there was a lot of traffic. The Alcan mill
                east of Oswego used to get ten cars a day.
                Nimo Fitzpatrick plant didn't get any cars but they wanted the line open "in
                case". Nimo also had a steam plant next to the college and they used to get
                caol in there although the plant was converted to oil later nd that brought
                the GATX Tank Trains. These trains operated over the ex DL&W main north from
                Syracuse into the RW&O yard via a brand new 180 degree coinnecting track
                that took the new track directly onto the Hojack. The tank farm was a few
                miles south of town.

                In Fulton there were upwards of six locals and the Oswego through freight
                used to move cars both ways. Miller Brewing, Nestle and Owen Ilinois were
                big customers.

                I also tested this track in 1979 while working for Sperry.

                I thank you all for your indulgence while I have rambled on about the
                Hojack.

                For more info on the then operations of the Hojack, look for a 1981 artical
                in Rails Northeast written by me.

                All the history for one night.

                Keep the Hojack stories coming.

                _________________________________________________________________
                Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
                http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
                http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf
              • Glenn J. Williams <103424.2304@compuserv
                ... Paul, I did a Google search on Hojack and received a lot of hits. One with some basic facts is: And this
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 31, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                  wrote:
                  > That was one of the explanations,
                  > but the appelation seems to be
                  > too widespread to be the result
                  > of a colloquialism. Do you suppose?
                  >
                  > PKL
                  >
                  Paul,

                  I did a Google search on "Hojack" and received a lot of hits. One
                  with some basic facts is:
                  <http://24.95.220.41/rochesterrailf/hojack.htm>

                  And this from a Railroad.net forum, which refers to the book you have:

                  "RE: Abandoned Lines
                  "Actually a fairly comprehensive history of the RW&O was written by
                  Edward Hungerford in 1922. No photos, somewhat understandable back
                  then. And it was stronger on the eastern end rather than the Lake
                  Ontario Shore part. But at over 260 pages it was informative.

                  "The old Railroad.net had a couple lengthy posts about the origin of
                  the 'Hojack' name - although lost in history, the 2 most common
                  stories are that the farmers along the line used to urge their mules
                  along with a 'Ho Jack', and that 'Jack' was a salutation to someone
                  whose actual name you did not know. As the train went by, folks and
                  the crew would exchange greetings 'Hello Jack' or, in time, 'Ho
                  Jack!'."

                  The mule story is as accepted as the greeting one, so who really
                  knows?

                  Glenn
                  (on his last day of
                  vacation for 2002)
                • paul larner
                  Glenn, Yes that s the story. Maybe somewhere in a tidbit of paper lost in one of our file drawers is the answer. I suspect most of these later days
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 31, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Glenn,

                    Yes that's the story. Maybe somewhere in a tidbit of paper lost in one of
                    our file drawers is the answer. I suspect most of these later days
                    explanations are more conjecture than founded in fact. Somewhere one of
                    will one day glance upon the situation or occurrence which brought the
                    nickname to being. Its out there just waiting to be discovered. I had a
                    quirky thought as I wrote that last sentence that this is a bit like faith
                    or the inspiration of a new idea - we don't know what it is but if we are
                    tuned, when it appears we will know it.

                    And to suggest that any of us would get off track:

                    I wish a happy New Year to all of us. T'aint the best looking going in with
                    the possiblility that many of us may well lose a member of our family in
                    what the military industrial complex (read Cheney and Rumsfeld) sees as the
                    best solution to a lackluster economy. I heard this morning that Rumsfeld
                    is saying that even while this build up of might in the middle east is going
                    on we reserve the right to start the war (sounds like a fait accompli) at
                    any time before the buildup is complete - just to maintain the element of
                    surprise. Isn't this a bit like what Hitler did to Austria or Japan to the
                    US at Pearl, that is a surprise attack. (Oh but the Austrians or us were
                    not told we were going to be attacked, or were we?)

                    While this is a simplification - wasn't the cutting off of the supply oil to
                    Japan (read N. Korea in 2002)what ultimately provoked them to attack us?
                    Why do the South Koreans want us to leave their country? Don't they know we
                    are more knowledgeable about their needs for defense than they can possibly
                    understand. $$$$ but in whose pocket.

                    There are railroads in Korea too.

                    PKL





                    >From: "Glenn J. Williams <103424.2304@...>"
                    ><103424.2304@...>
                    >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Origin of Hojack (Was: RW&O)
                    >Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:36:12 -0000
                    >
                    >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                    >wrote:
                    > > That was one of the explanations,
                    > > but the appelation seems to be
                    > > too widespread to be the result
                    > > of a colloquialism. Do you suppose?
                    > >
                    > > PKL
                    > >
                    >Paul,
                    >
                    >I did a Google search on "Hojack" and received a lot of hits. One
                    >with some basic facts is:
                    > <http://24.95.220.41/rochesterrailf/hojack.htm>
                    >
                    >And this from a Railroad.net forum, which refers to the book you have:
                    >
                    >"RE: Abandoned Lines
                    >"Actually a fairly comprehensive history of the RW&O was written by
                    >Edward Hungerford in 1922. No photos, somewhat understandable back
                    >then. And it was stronger on the eastern end rather than the Lake
                    >Ontario Shore part. But at over 260 pages it was informative.
                    >
                    >"The old Railroad.net had a couple lengthy posts about the origin of
                    >the 'Hojack' name - although lost in history, the 2 most common
                    >stories are that the farmers along the line used to urge their mules
                    >along with a 'Ho Jack', and that 'Jack' was a salutation to someone
                    >whose actual name you did not know. As the train went by, folks and
                    >the crew would exchange greetings 'Hello Jack' or, in time, 'Ho
                    >Jack!'."
                    >
                    >The mule story is as accepted as the greeting one, so who really
                    >knows?
                    >
                    > Glenn
                    >(on his last day of
                    > vacation for 2002)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    _________________________________________________________________
                    MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 3 months FREE*.
                    http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU=
                    http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_advancedjmf_3mf
                  • Frank Pierson
                    I hate to stir the pot on this, but I know how history tends to change the facts a bit. Many team drivers of both horses and asses trained there teams to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 1, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I hate to stir the pot on this, but I know how history tends to change
                      the facts a bit. Many team drivers of both horses and asses trained
                      there teams to respond to verbal commands so they could do other things
                      while working. HI was the common command for left and HO was used to
                      tell the team to go right. A clicking of the tongue was a common move to
                      start the team and of course everyone knows the WHOA command to stop.
                      We commonly tied off the reins to the front of the wagon while loading
                      hay and used voice commands to drive the team. The last I drove was as
                      a teenager, Many moons ago!

                      So how do we determine the fact from the fiction?

                      Frank Pierson
                    • joseph Klapkowski
                      S ... ince I asked the question I am glad you stirred the pot. And by the way noww that you mention it, I believe there was an animated cartoon where one of
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 1, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        S


                        >From: Frank Pierson <fpierson@...>
                        >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Origin of Hojack (Was: RW&O)
                        >Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 06:09:04 -0500
                        >
                        >I hate to stir the pot on this, but I know how history tends to change
                        >the facts a bit. Many team drivers of both horses and asses trained
                        >there teams to respond to verbal commands so they could do other things
                        >while working. HI was the common command for left and HO was used to
                        >tell the team to go right. A clicking of the tongue was a common move to
                        >start the team and of course everyone knows the WHOA command to stop.
                        >We commonly tied off the reins to the front of the wagon while loading
                        >hay and used voice commands to drive the team. The last I drove was as
                        >a teenager, Many moons ago!
                        >
                        > So how do we determine the fact from the fiction?
                        >
                        >Frank Pierson
                        >
                        >
                        ince I asked the question I am glad you stirred the pot. And by the way noww
                        that you mention it, I believe there was an animated cartoon where one of
                        the songs goes Hi Ho Hi Ho its off to work we go...........

                        Still I want to find tha

                        _________________________________________________________________
                        STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
                        http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
                      • joseph Klapkowski
                        S ... ince I asked the question I am glad you stirred the pot. And by the way noww that you mention it, I believe there was an animated cartoon where one of
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 1, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          S


                          >From: Frank Pierson <fpierson@...>
                          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Origin of Hojack (Was: RW&O)
                          >Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 06:09:04 -0500
                          >
                          >I hate to stir the pot on this, but I know how history tends to change
                          >the facts a bit. Many team drivers of both horses and asses trained
                          >there teams to respond to verbal commands so they could do other things
                          >while working. HI was the common command for left and HO was used to
                          >tell the team to go right. A clicking of the tongue was a common move to
                          >start the team and of course everyone knows the WHOA command to stop.
                          >We commonly tied off the reins to the front of the wagon while loading
                          >hay and used voice commands to drive the team. The last I drove was as
                          >a teenager, Many moons ago!
                          >
                          > So how do we determine the fact from the fiction?
                          >
                          >Frank Pierson
                          >
                          >
                          ince I asked the question I am glad you stirred the pot. And by the way noww
                          that you mention it, I believe there was an animated cartoon where one of
                          the songs goes Hi Ho Hi Ho its off to work we go...........

                          Still I want to find that definite answer that I don't thing exists. But I
                          wish I had Hungerfords book. I am sure it would explain it...

                          _________________________________________________________________
                          STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
                          http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.