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Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago

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  • Richard A. Finn
    Steve You are correct, they aren t trolleys. In the current vernacular they are Light Rail . In the case of the Green line, the cars ride on the ancient
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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      Steve

      You are correct, they aren't trolleys.  In the current vernacular they are "Light Rail".  In the case of the Green line, the cars ride on the ancient trolley roadbed and feed from the ancient catenary.

      There is a 1920s "woody" trolley from the old MTA at the Seaside Museum that was operating the day we were there.  It really was fun to ride; it brought back some old memories of the 50s when a few were still operating in Beantown.

      Rich

      Knixrule1@... wrote:

       I always hoped they would restore a section of trolley track in Schdy or
      Albany.  I never considered the T in Boston a trolley, but yes, Ive
      ridden it.  Your cities have a use for mass transport rail systems but
      Youll never see another FJ&G trolley system.  If and when they start the
      Saratoga to Albany CDTA train, it will be great to see another train, but
      I expect it to be like canal square, a lot of tax dollars and then close
      it after two years of trials.

      SM
      ________________________________________________________________

    • Dicarlo, Gino
      ... From: Lee Morelli [mailto:Morelli@ci.rochester.lib.ny.us] Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago Anyone have a link to info about this CDTA
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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        -----Original Message-----
        From: Lee Morelli [mailto:Morelli@...]
        Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago


        Anyone have a link to info about this CDTA Saratoga to Albany train?

        I don't know what's going to happen in the future, but at present they
        scrapped the plans to run the train from Saratoga to Albany! CP Rail
        wanted millions of dollars to upgrade the line, something that local
        government said was not worth it! The project is currently on hold!
        I was optimistic on it, because I wanted to ride the train to Albany
        via Mechanicville and Watervliet! That would be a neat ride! Paul
        Larner says that they will get something done in the future! There
        is money set aside for the project, but someone wants more! I think
        the biggest problem is that CDTA is in charge of it! They screw
        everything up!

        Gino
      • Dicarlo, Gino
        When I said there were trolleys in Boston, I wasn t thinking the T. That is most definitely light rail. I thought there was a classic style, street level
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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          When I said there were trolleys in Boston, I wasn't thinking the "T." That
          is most
          definitely "light rail." I thought there was a classic style, street level
          trolley operating around Boston somewhere! I've been on the "T" and enjoyed
          it!

          Gino
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Richard A. Finn [mailto:ransjfinn@...]
          Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:41 PM
          To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago


          Steve
          You are correct, they aren't trolleys. In the current vernacular they are
          "Light Rail". In the case of the Green line, the cars ride on the ancient
          trolley roadbed and feed from the ancient catenary.
          There is a 1920s "woody" trolley from the old MTA at the Seaside Museum that
          was operating the day we were there. It really was fun to ride; it brought
          back some old memories of the 50s when a few were still operating in
          Beantown.
          Rich
        • Dick Ryall
          San Francisco has trolleys, and Salt Lake City has new light rail.
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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            San Francisco has trolleys, and Salt Lake City has new light rail.

            paul larner wrote:
            >
            > Boston is a treat for the trolley fan. I don't recall trolleys in Baltimore
            > at least not of the old school. Philly I have not seen but hear they are
            > good. SanDiego is a new system and I have heard more a waste of taxpayers
            > money than a solution to the traffic problems. Around here it is worth a
            > trip to Boston to ride the cars. Then you an take a trip up to Seashore
            > before heading back home. That would be a couple of days well spent. When
            > you do the Boston cars your wife can shop at the malls and outlet stores
            > around the NH/Me border the nthe whole family would enjoy Seashore - they
            > used to have a great book store as well.
            >
            > PKL
            >
            > >From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
            > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: "'FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com'" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
            > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago
            > >Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 10:15:47 -0600
            > >
            > >That's not true! You can go to Buffalo and take a trolley around downtown!
            > >There's also
            > >a big trolley system in Baltimore, Philly, Boston and SanDiego! They may
            > >not be as
            > >classic as a Saint Louis Car, but they are trolleys no less! Definitely
            > >don't consider those
            > >ugly busses calling themselves trolleys in Lake George, Albany & Saratoga!
            > >It's funny,
            > >every five years or so, there's a group in Albany that talks about
            > >restoring
            > >the United
            > >Traction Company! They say that's a much better transportation system
            > >(environmentally)
            > >than the current bus situation! I'd love to see a belt line trolley like
            > >that! I love public
            > >transportation! If they had a city trolley around here I'd be the first
            > >person in line to be
            > >an operator...
            > >
            > >Gino
            > >
            > > > ----------
            > > > From: Knixrule1@...
            > > > Reply To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Sent: Thursday, January 3, 2002 10:13 AM
            > > > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago
            > > >
            > > > You are making me long for the days of interesting public
            > >transportation.
            > > > Imagine photographing trolleys running through Scotia rather than
            > > > watching empty CDTA buses roll past every fifteen minutes. Alas, we
            > >have
            > > > built spread out communities and we are hooked to the auto so I guess
            > >the
            > > > only trolley we will see, is the seashore museum on vacation.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            >
            > _________________________________________________________________
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            >
            >
            > Visit Gino's F.J.G.R.R. Page at
            > http://www.capital.net/~dicarlos/
            >
            > Visit The Greater Capital District Railfan Assocation At http://www.trainweb.com/gcdra/
            >
            > Visit The Site For Existing Railroad Stations
            > in New York State at
            > http://ny.existingstations.com/
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • glenn_j_williams
            ... Let s see if I can do this without making things even murkier! ... In 1959, the MTA (now the MBTA - Mass. Bay Trans. Auth.) bought a steam/diesel line used
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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              --- In FJGRailroad@y..., "Lee Morelli" <Morelli@c...> wrote:
              > Glenn,
              >
              > Wow! Kindly clarify the following acronyms and their use:

              Let's see if I can do this without making things even murkier!

              > B&A commuter line.

              In 1959, the MTA (now the MBTA - Mass. Bay Trans. Auth.) bought a
              steam/diesel line used by the Boston and Albany for commuter service,
              refurbished it, installed overhead, made a connection to the Park
              Street subway line at Kenmore Square, and viola! the D - Riverside
              Line was created.

              > (using PCC cars!).

              The MBTA has been under orders for some time to restore service on
              the Arborway line, one of the lines which comprise the Green Line. It
              was finally decided that streetcars would be used. I'm not sure, but
              I believe there are enough older PCC (President's Conference
              Committee cars serviceable to do it.

              > Twin Cities Rancid Transit

              This was how residents of Minneapolis/St. Paul derisively referred to
              Twin Cities Rapid Transit. Their PCC cars were wider than most
              others, which was a deciding factor in their ending up in Newark.
              Most other cities (including Boston) couldn't use them because of
              their broad beam, but clearances on the City Subway line were wide
              enough.

              > LRV equipment

              LRV - Light Rail Vehicle, today's version of the trolley car. They
              have lots of modern features (which sometimes don't work),
              can be run in train-like configuration, and can be made handicap
              accessible, which is a must these days.

              > PCC's poles were replaced with small pantographs

              When NJ Transit upgraded the City Subway overhead wire, it was
              evidently of the style that wouldn't allow continued use of trolley
              poles. Thus, the trolley poles were removed from the rear of each
              car and a smallish pantograph placed toward the front of each car.

              Glenn
            • Richard A. Finn
              Sorry Gino, all gone. As I said the nearest one that I know of is in the Seaside Museum. Of course there are these motorized imitation tourist trolleys .
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                Sorry Gino, all gone.

                As I said the nearest one that I know of is in the Seaside Museum.  Of course there are these motorized imitation tourist "trolleys".  There are some electric busses running in North Cambridge from Harvard Square T station.  (Well now I am not sure they are still there either.  They were there 3 years ago before I retired from MIT, and on the way home I would race them up Mt Auburn St. and try not get caught behind one at a stop.)

                I just remembered that we will be in Naw Lens (New Orleans to us Yankees) at the end of the month.  People have suggested that I would enjoy riding the trolleys there.  Do any of you folks have any suggestions?  BTW, there is a N O street car named "Desire" on exhibit at the Seaside Museum.

                Rich
                 

                "Dicarlo, Gino" wrote:

                 When I said there were trolleys in Boston, I wasn't thinking the "T."  That
                is most
                definitely "light rail."  I thought there was a classic style, street level
                trolley operating around Boston somewhere!  I've been on the "T" and enjoyed
                it!

                Gino
                -----Original Message-----
                From: Richard A. Finn [mailto:ransjfinn@...]
                Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:41 PM
                To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago
                 
                 

              • dowens15228
                You sure are right about those Frisco cable cars Dick! They are a blast to ride up and down the hills, and then everybody gets to help turn the car on the
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                  You sure are right about those Frisco cable cars Dick! They are a
                  blast to ride up and down the hills, and then everybody gets to help
                  turn the car on the turntable at the end.

                  I was surprised how little they are though. They are not much longer
                  than the Incline cars ( Inclined Planes ) that we have going up Mt
                  Washington in Pittsburgh.

                  Dan Owens
                • Malcolm Horton
                  Everyone interested in railroads should make it a point to ride the Mt. Washington cog railroad. It is virtually the same as it was when it was built in 1868.
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                    Everyone interested in railroads should make it a point to ride the Mt. Washington cog railroad. It is virtually the same as it was when it was built in 1868. All the trains are steam powered (hand fired with coal). There is never more than one passenger car to a train and it is always on the uphill side of the locomotive. There is no coupling between the locomotive and the car. Gravity alone keeps them in touch. One has a horizontal steel roller and the other has a vertical steel roller at their point of contact, to allow for gross misalignment. The maximum grade is 35% (climb is 35 feet for 100 feet of track). There are no level sections. The locomotive boilers are short and large in diameter and are tilted forward with respect to the plane of the four wheels. This is necessary to prevent the water from uncovering the flue pipes when on the steep grades. When going upgrade, a hinged pawl on the underside of the car is let down and bounces along on the gear rack. This is to prevent the car from rolling backward in case the locomotive derails and leaves the scene. When going down hill, the pawl is fully raised and the brakeman on the lower end of the car constantly mans the brakes such that the car is just barely touching the locomotive. This is to prevent the car from running away if the locomotive derails. The fireman has to work very hard when going uphill for obvious reasons. When going downhill, the pistons are used as air compressors to hold the train back. Steam is only turned on to stop the locomotive. Obviously the fireman has very little to do when going downhill. The switches are very complicated and require several separate manual operations to switch both the running rails and the gear track.
                     
                    Don't put off going to see this mechanical marvel. Someday you may read that they have gone to diesel operation and then it will be too late.
                     
                    The ride is not very bumpy because the speed is always very slow. Because of the steep grades, you feel like you are lying on your back with your feet in the air.
                     
                    Malcolm Horton
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Richard A. Finn
                    Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 1:18 AM
                    To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Mt. Washington Cog Railway (Re: trolleys to Chicago)
                     
                    Gino

                    I have been told by a friend who did the trip on the Cog Railway that it is a very jarring ride and a once (only once) in a lifetime experience.  We did the auto road once in July.  Temperature was in the low 80s at the base, and 37 at the summit.  The wind chill is very severe.  The summit is about 6,300 feet.

                    Rich

                    glenn_j_williams wrote:

                     --- In FJGRailroad@y..., "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@q...> wrote:
                    > Isn't there a Mount Washington in New Hampshire that could be
                    > reached by some sort of a trolley or tram?
                    >
                    > Gino

                    Gino,

                    You're thinking of the Mount Washington Cog Railway, a truly unique

                    railroad.  It runs from the base to the summit, including a meet with
                    a train from the other direction.  Cog railway switches are something
                    to see.

                    Anyone going to visit it should bring warm clothes, as the summit
                    never gets above 65 degrees and is frequently in the clouds.  Be
                    warned, too: it's an expensive trip.

                         Glenn
                     


                    Visit Gino's F.J.G.R.R. Page at
                    http://www.capital.net/~dicarlos/

                    Visit The Greater Capital District Railfan Assocation At http://www.trainweb.com/gcdra/

                    Visit The Site For Existing Railroad Stations
                    in New York State at
                    http://ny.existingstations.com/

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                  • Dicarlo, Gino
                    Isn t there a Mount Washington in New Hampshire that could be reached by some sort of a trolley or tram? Gino ... From: dowens15228
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                      Isn't there a Mount Washington in New Hampshire that could be
                      reached by some sort of a trolley or tram?

                      Gino

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: dowens15228 [mailto:supportone@...]
                      Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago


                      You sure are right about those Frisco cable cars Dick! They are a
                      blast to ride up and down the hills, and then everybody gets to help
                      turn the car on the turntable at the end.

                      I was surprised how little they are though. They are not much longer
                      than the Incline cars ( Inclined Planes ) that we have going up Mt
                      Washington in Pittsburgh.

                      Dan Owens
                    • glenn_j_williams
                      ... Gino, You re thinking of the Mount Washington Cog Railway, a truly unique railroad. It runs from the base to the summit, including a meet with a train
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                        --- In FJGRailroad@y..., "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@q...> wrote:
                        > Isn't there a Mount Washington in New Hampshire that could be
                        > reached by some sort of a trolley or tram?
                        >
                        > Gino

                        Gino,

                        You're thinking of the Mount Washington Cog Railway, a truly unique
                        railroad. It runs from the base to the summit, including a meet with
                        a train from the other direction. Cog railway switches are something
                        to see.

                        Anyone going to visit it should bring warm clothes, as the summit
                        never gets above 65 degrees and is frequently in the clouds. Be
                        warned, too: it's an expensive trip.

                        Glenn
                      • glenn_j_williams
                        ... Rich, To me, the best part of my New Orleans trips was riding the Charles Street trolleys. There are several downtown boarding locations adjacent to Canal
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                          --- In FJGRailroad@y..., "Richard A. Finn" <ransjfinn@r...> wrote:
                          >
                          > [snip]
                          >
                          > I just remembered that we will be in Naw Lens (New Orleans to us
                          > Yankees) at the end of the month. People have suggested that I
                          > would enjoy riding the trolleys there. Do any of you folks have any
                          > suggestions?
                          > [snip]
                          >
                          > Rich

                          Rich,

                          To me, the best part of my New Orleans trips was riding the Charles
                          Street trolleys. There are several downtown boarding locations
                          adjacent to Canal Street.

                          Also, the Canal Street line is being reactivated out to Cemeteries.
                          New trolleys, similar in style to the existing ones, are being
                          constructed. Don't know if it is still there, but an ulta-sleek
                          Czech trolley was running up and down the Canal Street line and onto
                          the Riverside line when I was last there 18 months ago.

                          And you *must* go to Cafe Du Monde for coffee and beignets. Wicked
                          good!

                          Otherwise, the Bourbon Street area is grossly overrated, particularly
                          at night. Unless you don't mind drunks and unintentional 'business
                          meetings' with representatives from Our Lady of the Evening, that is.

                          Glenn
                        • Richard A. Finn
                          Gino I have been told by a friend who did the trip on the Cog Railway that it is a very jarring ride and a once (only once) in a lifetime experience. We did
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                            Gino

                            I have been told by a friend who did the trip on the Cog Railway that it is a very jarring ride and a once (only once) in a lifetime experience.  We did the auto road once in July.  Temperature was in the low 80s at the base, and 37 at the summit.  The wind chill is very severe.  The summit is about 6,300 feet.

                            Rich

                            glenn_j_williams wrote:

                             --- In FJGRailroad@y..., "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@q...> wrote:
                            > Isn't there a Mount Washington in New Hampshire that could be
                            > reached by some sort of a trolley or tram?
                            >
                            > Gino

                            Gino,

                            You're thinking of the Mount Washington Cog Railway, a truly unique
                            railroad.  It runs from the base to the summit, including a meet with
                            a train from the other direction.  Cog railway switches are something
                            to see.

                            Anyone going to visit it should bring warm clothes, as the summit
                            never gets above 65 degrees and is frequently in the clouds.  Be
                            warned, too: it's an expensive trip.

                                 Glenn
                             


                            Visit Gino's F.J.G.R.R. Page at
                            http://www.capital.net/~dicarlos/

                            Visit The Greater Capital District Railfan Assocation At http://www.trainweb.com/gcdra/

                            Visit The Site For Existing Railroad Stations
                            in New York State at
                            http://ny.existingstations.com/

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                          • psefton@crosslink.net
                            My wife and I rode the trolleys when we visited there in March. they are a staple method of transportation, as it is very difficult to park or make reasonable
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                              My wife and I rode the trolleys when we visited there in March. they are a
                              staple method of transportation, as it is very difficult to park or make
                              reasonable progress by car through the French Quarter.

                              They get very crowded when people start to go out for the evening around
                              dinner time.


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: glenn_j_williams <103424.2304@...>
                              To: <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 7:23 PM
                              Subject: [FJGRailroad] New Orleans (Re: trolleys to Chicago)


                              > --- In FJGRailroad@y..., "Richard A. Finn" <ransjfinn@r...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > [snip]
                              > >
                              > > I just remembered that we will be in Naw Lens (New Orleans to us
                              > > Yankees) at the end of the month. People have suggested that I
                              > > would enjoy riding the trolleys there. Do any of you folks have any
                              > > suggestions?
                              > > [snip]
                              > >
                              > > Rich
                              >
                              > Rich,
                              >
                              > To me, the best part of my New Orleans trips was riding the Charles
                              > Street trolleys. There are several downtown boarding locations
                              > adjacent to Canal Street.
                              >
                              > Also, the Canal Street line is being reactivated out to Cemeteries.
                              > New trolleys, similar in style to the existing ones, are being
                              > constructed. Don't know if it is still there, but an ulta-sleek
                              > Czech trolley was running up and down the Canal Street line and onto
                              > the Riverside line when I was last there 18 months ago.
                              >
                              > And you *must* go to Cafe Du Monde for coffee and beignets. Wicked
                              > good!
                              >
                              > Otherwise, the Bourbon Street area is grossly overrated, particularly
                              > at night. Unless you don't mind drunks and unintentional 'business
                              > meetings' with representatives from Our Lady of the Evening, that is.
                              >
                              > Glenn
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Visit Gino's F.J.G.R.R. Page at
                              > http://www.capital.net/~dicarlos/
                              >
                              > Visit The Greater Capital District Railfan Assocation At
                              http://www.trainweb.com/gcdra/
                              >
                              > Visit The Site For Existing Railroad Stations
                              > in New York State at
                              > http://ny.existingstations.com/
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • Dick Ryall
                              Rjight on cable cars, San Francisco also has real trollys too.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                                Rjight on cable cars, San Francisco also has real trollys too.

                                dowens15228 wrote:
                                >
                                > You sure are right about those Frisco cable cars Dick! They are a
                                > blast to ride up and down the hills, and then everybody gets to help
                                > turn the car on the turntable at the end.
                                >
                                > I was surprised how little they are though. They are not much longer
                                > than the Incline cars ( Inclined Planes ) that we have going up Mt
                                > Washington in Pittsburgh.
                                >
                                > Dan Owens
                                >
                                >
                                > Visit Gino's F.J.G.R.R. Page at
                                > http://www.capital.net/~dicarlos/
                                >
                                > Visit The Greater Capital District Railfan Assocation At http://www.trainweb.com/gcdra/
                                >
                                > Visit The Site For Existing Railroad Stations
                                > in New York State at
                                > http://ny.existingstations.com/
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • paul larner
                                CDTA will be heavy rail. There aren t enough people working in central capitol area, 1 square mile, to support new construction for light rail according to
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 3, 2002
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                                  CDTA will be heavy rail. There aren't enough people working in central
                                  capitol area, 1 square mile, to support new construction for light rail
                                  according to studies I had seen several years ago. When dreams run faster
                                  than realities you must be prepared to spend a lot of someone's money. One
                                  thing the trolley systems of the early twentieth century did was help to
                                  create a market by making it possible for people to move away from the
                                  central city. Not only did new home construction fund the investors who
                                  promoted the systems but also owned the developing land but it created a
                                  market for that new fangled electricity which Edison (read General
                                  Electric), along with Westinghouse and Sprague so wanted to sell. The early
                                  systems supported their investors in more ways than merely from the movement
                                  of people. Simplified, the electric power industry grew with the expansion
                                  of the urban areas and industry followed cheap electricity. The trolley
                                  systems were a vehicle for a developing America.

                                  The new lines are primarily to serve the government, or people if you will,
                                  by spending tax dollars one way to save other dollars for highways. Now add
                                  in the environmental effects and the cost of time spent on the highways
                                  commuting at 0 mph and you have the new purpose for mass trainsit. The fast
                                  thinkers have to convince the taxpaying public that you build before the
                                  need but there is a downside in that as a system goes into service and
                                  people begin to use it, the highways become more desireable. Until the
                                  Northway comes to a standstill every morning and evening for hours at a time
                                  the public won't be ready to invest. The inconvenience today doesn't
                                  justify the cost.

                                  PKL


                                  >From: Knixrule1@...
                                  >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                  >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                  >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago
                                  >Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:44:56 -0500
                                  >
                                  >I always hoped they would restore a section of trolley track in Schdy or
                                  >Albany. I never considered the T in Boston a trolley, but yes, Ive
                                  >ridden it. Your cities have a use for mass transport rail systems but
                                  >Youll never see another FJ&G trolley system. If and when they start the
                                  >Saratoga to Albany CDTA train, it will be great to see another train, but
                                  >I expect it to be like canal square, a lot of tax dollars and then close
                                  >it after two years of trials.
                                  >
                                  >SM
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                                • Richard A. Finn
                                  Paul, very astute observations. Regards Rich
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                    Paul, very astute observations.

                                    Regards

                                    Rich

                                    paul larner wrote:

                                     CDTA will be heavy rail.  There aren't enough people working in central
                                    capitol area, 1 square mile, to support new construction for light rail
                                    according to studies I had seen several years ago.  When dreams run faster
                                    than realities you must be prepared to spend a lot of someone's money.  One
                                    thing the trolley systems of the early twentieth century did was help to
                                    create a market by making it possible for people to move away from the
                                    central city.  Not only did new home construction fund the investors who
                                    promoted the systems but also owned the developing land but it created a
                                    market for that new fangled electricity which Edison (read General
                                    Electric), along with Westinghouse and Sprague so wanted to sell.  The early
                                    systems supported their investors in more ways than merely from the movement
                                    of people. Simplified, the electric power industry grew with the expansion
                                    of the urban areas and industry followed cheap electricity.  The trolley
                                    systems were a vehicle for a developing America.

                                    The new lines are primarily to serve the government, or people if you will,
                                    by spending tax dollars one way to save other dollars for highways.  Now add
                                    in the environmental effects and the cost of time spent on the highways
                                    commuting at 0 mph and you have the new purpose for mass trainsit.  The fast
                                    thinkers have to convince the taxpaying public that you build before the
                                    need but there is a downside in that as a system goes into service and
                                    people begin to use it, the highways become more desireable.  Until the
                                    Northway comes to a standstill every morning and evening for hours at a time
                                    the public won't be ready to invest.  The inconvenience today doesn't
                                    justify the cost.

                                    PKL
                                     

                                    >From: Knixrule1@...
                                    >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                    >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: trolleys to Chicago
                                    >Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:44:56 -0500
                                    >
                                    >I always hoped they would restore a section of trolley track in Schdy or
                                    >Albany.  I never considered the T in Boston a trolley, but yes, Ive
                                    >ridden it.  Your cities have a use for mass transport rail systems but
                                    >Youll never see another FJ&G trolley system.  If and when they start the
                                    >Saratoga to Albany CDTA train, it will be great to see another train, but
                                    >I expect it to be like canal square, a lot of tax dollars and then close
                                    >it after two years of trials.
                                    >
                                    >SM

                                  • Knixrule1@juno.com
                                    When I was in Luxemborg, I rode LRV s that where like the ones in Boston. When I rode the train to Buffalo in 1980 and slept with the rats in Buffalo Central
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                      When I was in Luxemborg, I rode LRV's that where like the ones in Boston.
                                      When I rode the train to Buffalo in 1980 and slept with the rats in
                                      Buffalo Central Terminal, there was no subway or trolley. I love the old
                                      Buffalo Building, what a station !



                                      Steve Myers
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                                    • Knixrule1@juno.com
                                      The Cog railroad was owned by the Boston and Maine Railroad for a while. There is also a cog on Pikes Peak in Colorado. Steve Myers
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                        The Cog railroad was owned by the Boston and Maine Railroad for a while.
                                        There is also a cog on Pikes Peak in Colorado.



                                        Steve Myers
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                                        GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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                                        Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
                                        http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
                                      • dowens15228
                                        Gino: Yeah, Mt Washington in New Hampshire is a real mountain. Ours in Pittsburgh looks high because it s next to the river, and the angle is steep, but the
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 4, 2002
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                                          Gino:

                                          Yeah, Mt Washington in New Hampshire is a real mountain. Ours in
                                          Pittsburgh looks high because it's next to the river, and the angle
                                          is steep, but the US Steel Building (64 stories high) is higher.

                                          As a joke, some people have bumper stickers that say "This car
                                          climbed Mount Washington".

                                          Dan Owens
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