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Amsterdam, NY

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  • Paul Charland
    Hi All, I m working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I was going to do a 70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
    Message 1 of 14 , Feb 4, 2011
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      Hi All,

      I'm working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I
      was going to do a '70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
      backdating what I have to the late 30s when the line used an 0-8-0 for
      power, the Kellogg and Miller linseed oil plant was still active and the
      FJ&G was still running the electric division through Amsterdam.

      I'm looking for any maps or photos that would show the line, I've been
      able to download a 1931 map that appears to show a double track mainline
      coming off East Main Street, turning southeast before it starts to
      parallel the NYC yard... might even be where the eastbound lanes of
      (new) Route 5 are now. If this is so, how did the NYC's Kellogg Branch
      and the FJ&G trackage cross, at grade, or did the NYC have the ramp and
      overpass they have now back then?

      Any help would be appreciated.

      Paul :-)
    • Jim Kelly's Heros
      Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download? Don t forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave. Gino
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 4, 2011
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        Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download? Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.

        Gino

        --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Charland <p.charlie@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > I'm working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I
        > was going to do a '70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
        > backdating what I have to the late 30s when the line used an 0-8-0 for
        > power, the Kellogg and Miller linseed oil plant was still active and the
        > FJ&G was still running the electric division through Amsterdam.
        >
        > I'm looking for any maps or photos that would show the line, I've been
        > able to download a 1931 map that appears to show a double track mainline
        > coming off East Main Street, turning southeast before it starts to
        > parallel the NYC yard... might even be where the eastbound lanes of
        > (new) Route 5 are now. If this is so, how did the NYC's Kellogg Branch
        > and the FJ&G trackage cross, at grade, or did the NYC have the ramp and
        > overpass they have now back then?
        >
        > Any help would be appreciated.
        >
        > Paul :-)
        >
      • Paul Charland
        Hi Gino, US Geological Survey, Historical Maps, northwest quadrant of the 1931 Amsterdam map set. Don t forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 4, 2011
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          Hi Gino,

          US Geological Survey, Historical Maps, northwest quadrant of the 1931
          Amsterdam map set.

          "Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman
          Ave."... Can't forget what I don't know! Guess I need a map that covers
          that too!

          Paul :-)

          On 04/02/2011 7:37 PM, Jim Kelly's Heros wrote:
          > Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download?
          > Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.
          >
          > Gino
        • Gino's Railpage
          I ll see what I have. I pre-1940 s version of the ACN would be sweet. Business at the Carpet Mills and the Linseed factory would be neat... ... --
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 4, 2011
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            I'll see what I have.  I pre-1940's version of the ACN would be sweet.  Business at the Carpet Mills and the Linseed factory would be neat...

            On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Paul Charland <p.charlie@...> wrote:
             

            Hi Gino,

            US Geological Survey, Historical Maps, northwest quadrant of the 1931
            Amsterdam map set.



            "Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman
            Ave."... Can't forget what I don't know! Guess I need a map that covers
            that too!

            Paul :-)


            On 04/02/2011 7:37 PM, Jim Kelly's Heros wrote:
            > Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download?
            > Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.
            >
            > Gino




            --
            http://fjgrr.org
            http://ginosrailpage.com
            http://ginostrolleypage.com
            http://ginosmusicservice.com
          • Paul Larner
            Paul, The AC&N crossed over the FJ&G interurban line at the same location it passes over Rte 5. With regard to the Vrooman Avenue segment of the belt line, it
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 4, 2011
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              Paul, 
               
              The AC&N crossed over the FJ&G interurban line at the same location it passes over Rte 5.  With regard to the Vrooman Avenue segment of the belt line, it was abandoned in 1928.  I don't have any schematics or vals. of the AC&N.  Doing the line in the teens or twenties would certainly show it at its busiest.
               
              Paul 

              To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              From: fjgrailroad@...
              Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 20:06:03 -0500
              Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY

               
              I'll see what I have.  I pre-1940's version of the ACN would be sweet.  Business at the Carpet Mills and the Linseed factory would be neat...

              On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Paul Charland <p.charlie@...> wrote:
               

              Hi Gino,

              US Geological Survey, Historical Maps, northwest quadrant of the 1931
              Amsterdam map set.



              "Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman
              Ave."... Can't forget what I don't know! Guess I need a map that covers
              that too!

              Paul :-)


              On 04/02/2011 7:37 PM, Jim Kelly's Heros wrote:
              > Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download?
              > Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.
              >
              > Gino






              --
              http://fjgrr.org
              http://ginosrailpage.com
              http://ginostrolleypage.com
              http://ginosmusicservice.com

            • Paul Charland
              Hi Paul and Gino, The twenties might be a bit of a stretch as far as what s available for rolling stock and NYC steam that s available, but I ll have a look.
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 5, 2011
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                Hi Paul and Gino,

                The twenties might be a bit of a stretch as far as what's available for
                rolling stock and NYC steam that's available, but I'll have a look.
                Just checked ETT 100 and there is a full Electric Schedule there, geez
                they ran quite a few passenger runs on the electric line back then!

                Any idea what the NYC's bridge would have looked like, I take it the one
                that's there now was a replacement when they built the new Route 5.

                Paul :-)

                On 04/02/2011 11:03 PM, Paul Larner wrote:
                >
                > Paul,
                >
                > The AC&N crossed over the FJ&G interurban line at the same location
                > it passes over Rte 5. With regard to the Vrooman Avenue segment of
                > the belt line, it was abandoned in 1928. I don't have any schematics
                > or vals. of the AC&N. Doing the line in the teens or twenties would
                > certainly show it at its busiest.
                >
                > Paul
                >

                > I'll see what I have. I pre-1940's version of the ACN would be
                > sweet. Business at the Carpet Mills and the Linseed factory would be
                > neat...
              • handyman756
                Gino, The Amsterdam Belt Linn didn t cross the ACN on Vrooman Ave. The Belt Line turned off of Vrooman and went west on Edward Street before it got far enough
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 5, 2011
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                  Gino,
                  The Amsterdam Belt Linn didn't cross the ACN on Vrooman Ave. The Belt Line turned off of Vrooman and went west on Edward Street before it got far enough north to hit the ACN. Depending on which map you believe, the Belt Line either crossed the ACN on James Street right where Kellogg Street joined James, or it ran diagonally from the intersection of Edward and James into that wonderful intersection we Amsterdamians call the "5 Corners". If that was the route it would have had to cross the ACN twice, once on the line going to Kellogg & Millers and the Sanford complex and again on the line running up to Smellie & Vorhees paper mill and the Upper Mohawk Mills. So far I haven't been able to pin down the exact route in that area.
                  Jerry

                  --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kelly's Heros" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download? Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.
                  >
                  > Gino
                  >
                  > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Charland <p.charlie@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi All,
                  > >
                  > > I'm working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I
                  > > was going to do a '70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
                  > > backdating what I have to the late 30s when the line used an 0-8-0 for
                  > > power, the Kellogg and Miller linseed oil plant was still active and the
                  > > FJ&G was still running the electric division through Amsterdam.
                  > >
                  > > I'm looking for any maps or photos that would show the line, I've been
                  > > able to download a 1931 map that appears to show a double track mainline
                  > > coming off East Main Street, turning southeast before it starts to
                  > > parallel the NYC yard... might even be where the eastbound lanes of
                  > > (new) Route 5 are now. If this is so, how did the NYC's Kellogg Branch
                  > > and the FJ&G trackage cross, at grade, or did the NYC have the ramp and
                  > > overpass they have now back then?
                  > >
                  > > Any help would be appreciated.
                  > >
                  > > Paul :-)
                  > >
                  >
                • Paul Larner
                  The Belt line crossed the AC&N once. After ascending Vrooman Ave. the line went left on Edward St. to a point that would be Pulaski St. today, where it turned
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 6, 2011
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                    The Belt line crossed the AC&N once. 
                     
                    After ascending Vrooman Ave. the line went left on Edward St. to a point that would be Pulaski St. today, where it turned right. Between there and Teller St. the AC&N was crossed at grade.  Turning left into Teller St. (laid out, but not an improved street at this time period) the line proceeded to James where it went right to Edson St. then left in Edson and across Church St.  After crossing Church the line went onto private right of way turning north and running several hundred feet parallel to Forest Avenue.  At this time, late twenties, Forest Avenue, like Teller Street, does not appear to be an improved street. After passing under the high tension wires, the belt line moves into the center of Forest Ave.  At Clarke St. the line follows the north side of Clarke to Sloane Ave., then to Clizbe and onto Rockton Jct.   Intermediate turnouts were on Teller St. and Forest Ave. shortly before the turn onto Clarke.
                     
                    PKL
                     

                    To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    From: handyman756@...
                    Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 06:28:53 +0000
                    Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY

                     
                    Gino,
                    The Amsterdam Belt Linn didn't cross the ACN on Vrooman Ave. The Belt Line turned off of Vrooman and went west on Edward Street before it got far enough north to hit the ACN. Depending on which map you believe, the Belt Line either crossed the ACN on James Street right where Kellogg Street joined James, or it ran diagonally from the intersection of Edward and James into that wonderful intersection we Amsterdamians call the "5 Corners". If that was the route it would have had to cross the ACN twice, once on the line going to Kellogg & Millers and the Sanford complex and again on the line running up to Smellie & Vorhees paper mill and the Upper Mohawk Mills. So far I haven't been able to pin down the exact route in that area.
                    Jerry

                    --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kelly's Heros" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download? Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.
                    >
                    > Gino
                    >
                    > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Charland <p.charlie@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hi All,
                    > >
                    > > I'm working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I
                    > > was going to do a '70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
                    > > backdating what I have to the late 30s when the line used an 0-8-0 for
                    > > power, the Kellogg and Miller linseed oil plant was still active and the
                    > > FJ&G was still running the electric division through Amsterdam.
                    > >
                    > > I'm looking for any maps or photos that would show the line, I've been
                    > > able to download a 1931 map that appears to show a double track mainline
                    > > coming off East Main Street, turning southeast before it starts to
                    > > parallel the NYC yard... might even be where the eastbound lanes of
                    > > (new) Route 5 are now. If this is so, how did the NYC's Kellogg Branch
                    > > and the FJ&G trackage cross, at grade, or did the NYC have the ramp and
                    > > overpass they have now back then?
                    > >
                    > > Any help would be appreciated.
                    > >
                    > > Paul :-)
                    > >
                    >


                  • Jerry Snyder
                    Paul, Your description is very close to the alternate I mentioned with the line running up James Street.  The rest of that one had it following the path you
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 6, 2011
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                      Paul,
                      Your description is very close to the alternate I mentioned with the line running up James Street.  The rest of that one had it following the path you describe with Edson St. and Forest Ave.  That would make more sense than running it through the 5 corners, but that is the only map of the line that I have.  I've never been able to find a map showing it laid out as you describe, just the text description.  The map I sent Paul isn't dated but as it mentions Mohawk Mills Park it must be post 1934 when the name changed from Jollyland.  I know the Belt Line was shut down by then so maybe my map isn't accurate.  Given that the area where the lines crossed wasn't really very developed at the time, it would explain why none of the city directories note a street crossing.
                      Jerry

                      --- On Sun, 2/6/11, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:

                      From: Paul Larner <pklarner@...>
                      Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY
                      To: "FJGRailroad" <fjgrailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 10:31 AM

                       

                      The Belt line crossed the AC&N once. 
                       
                      After ascending Vrooman Ave. the line went left on Edward St. to a point that would be Pulaski St. today, where it turned right. Between there and Teller St. the AC&N was crossed at grade.  Turning left into Teller St. (laid out, but not an improved street at this time period) the line proceeded to James where it went right to Edson St. then left in Edson and across Church St.  After crossing Church the line went onto private right of way turning north and running several hundred feet parallel to Forest Avenue.  At this time, late twenties, Forest Avenue, like Teller Street, does not appear to be an improved street. After passing under the high tension wires, the belt line moves into the center of Forest Ave.  At Clarke St. the line follows the north side of Clarke to Sloane Ave., then to Clizbe and onto Rockton Jct.   Intermediate turnouts were on Teller St. and Forest Ave. shortly before the turn onto Clarke.
                       
                      PKL
                       


                      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      From: handyman756@...
                      Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 06:28:53 +0000
                      Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY

                       
                      Gino,
                      The Amsterdam Belt Linn didn't cross the ACN on Vrooman Ave. The Belt Line turned off of Vrooman and went west on Edward Street before it got far enough north to hit the ACN. Depending on which map you believe, the Belt Line either crossed the ACN on James Street right where Kellogg Street joined James, or it ran diagonally from the intersection of Edward and James into that wonderful intersection we Amsterdamians call the "5 Corners". If that was the route it would have had to cross the ACN twice, once on the line going to Kellogg & Millers and the Sanford complex and again on the line running up to Smellie & Vorhees paper mill and the Upper Mohawk Mills. So far I haven't been able to pin down the exact route in that area.
                      Jerry

                      --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kelly's Heros" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download? Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.
                      >
                      > Gino
                      >
                      > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Charland <p.charlie@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi All,
                      > >
                      > > I'm working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I
                      > > was going to do a '70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
                      > > backdating what I have to the late 30s when the line used an 0-8-0 for
                      > > power, the Kellogg and Miller linseed oil plant was still active and the
                      > > FJ&G was still running the electric division through Amsterdam.
                      > >
                      > > I'm looking for any maps or photos that would show the line, I've been
                      > > able to download a 1931 map that appears to show a double track mainline
                      > > coming off East Main Street, turning southeast before it starts to
                      > > parallel the NYC yard... might even be where the eastbound lanes of
                      > > (new) Route 5 are now. If this is so, how did the NYC's Kellogg Branch
                      > > and the FJ&G trackage cross, at grade, or did the NYC have the ramp and
                      > > overpass they have now back then?
                      > >
                      > > Any help would be appreciated.
                      > >
                      > > Paul :-)
                      > >
                      >



                    • Gino's Railpage
                      I thought the belt line went down Vrooman Street Hill. I figured it had to cross the ACN right at the top of the hill. Aren t there stories about heavy duty
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 8, 2011
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                        I thought the belt line went down Vrooman Street Hill.  I figured it had to cross the ACN right at the top of the hill.  Aren't there stories about heavy duty breaks being used because of Vrooman?  Maybe the busses went down Vrooman and I'm confusing a story?

                        Gino

                        On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Jerry Snyder <handyman756@...> wrote:
                         

                        Paul,
                        Your description is very close to the alternate I mentioned with the line running up James Street.  The rest of that one had it following the path you describe with Edson St. and Forest Ave.  That would make more sense than running it through the 5 corners, but that is the only map of the line that I have.  I've never been able to find a map showing it laid out as you describe, just the text description.  The map I sent Paul isn't dated but as it mentions Mohawk Mills Park it must be post 1934 when the name changed from Jollyland.  I know the Belt Line was shut down by then so maybe my map isn't accurate.  Given that the area where the lines crossed wasn't really very developed at the time, it would explain why none of the city directories note a street crossing.
                        Jerry

                        --- On Sun, 2/6/11, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:

                        From: Paul Larner <pklarner@...>
                        Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY
                        To: "FJGRailroad" <fjgrailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 10:31 AM


                         

                        The Belt line crossed the AC&N once. 
                         
                        After ascending Vrooman Ave. the line went left on Edward St. to a point that would be Pulaski St. today, where it turned right. Between there and Teller St. the AC&N was crossed at grade.  Turning left into Teller St. (laid out, but not an improved street at this time period) the line proceeded to James where it went right to Edson St. then left in Edson and across Church St.  After crossing Church the line went onto private right of way turning north and running several hundred feet parallel to Forest Avenue.  At this time, late twenties, Forest Avenue, like Teller Street, does not appear to be an improved street. After passing under the high tension wires, the belt line moves into the center of Forest Ave.  At Clarke St. the line follows the north side of Clarke to Sloane Ave., then to Clizbe and onto Rockton Jct.   Intermediate turnouts were on Teller St. and Forest Ave. shortly before the turn onto Clarke.
                         
                        PKL
                         


                        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        From: handyman756@...
                        Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 06:28:53 +0000
                        Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY

                         
                        Gino,
                        The Amsterdam Belt Linn didn't cross the ACN on Vrooman Ave. The Belt Line turned off of Vrooman and went west on Edward Street before it got far enough north to hit the ACN. Depending on which map you believe, the Belt Line either crossed the ACN on James Street right where Kellogg Street joined James, or it ran diagonally from the intersection of Edward and James into that wonderful intersection we Amsterdamians call the "5 Corners". If that was the route it would have had to cross the ACN twice, once on the line going to Kellogg & Millers and the Sanford complex and again on the line running up to Smellie & Vorhees paper mill and the Upper Mohawk Mills. So far I haven't been able to pin down the exact route in that area.
                        Jerry

                        --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kelly's Heros" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download? Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.
                        >
                        > Gino
                        >
                        > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Charland <p.charlie@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hi All,
                        > >
                        > > I'm working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I
                        > > was going to do a '70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
                        > > backdating what I have to the late 30s when the line used an 0-8-0 for
                        > > power, the Kellogg and Miller linseed oil plant was still active and the
                        > > FJ&G was still running the electric division through Amsterdam.
                        > >
                        > > I'm looking for any maps or photos that would show the line, I've been
                        > > able to download a 1931 map that appears to show a double track mainline
                        > > coming off East Main Street, turning southeast before it starts to
                        > > parallel the NYC yard... might even be where the eastbound lanes of
                        > > (new) Route 5 are now. If this is so, how did the NYC's Kellogg Branch
                        > > and the FJ&G trackage cross, at grade, or did the NYC have the ramp and
                        > > overpass they have now back then?
                        > >
                        > > Any help would be appreciated.
                        > >
                        > > Paul :-)
                        > >
                        >






                        --
                        http://fjgrr.org
                        http://ginosrailpage.com
                        http://ginostrolleypage.com
                        http://ginosmusicservice.com
                      • Paul Larner
                        What ascends can also descends; my mind was riding one of the east bound trips to Rockton Jct. The line went both up and down Vrooman. The magnetic brakes
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 8, 2011
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                          What ascends can also descends; my mind was riding one of the east bound trips to Rockton Jct.  The line went both up and down Vrooman.  The magnetic brakes used in Amsterdam were originally required because of the Market Street hill.  All Amsterdam "city" cars were equipped with the magnetic brakes.  Vrooman Ave line wasn't constructed until 1911.  Shortly after, can't recall off the top of my head, the line was relocated to use Forbes and Lark Sts., thereby avoiding the lower part of the grade.  IIRC, you can see lclearly where the tracks made the turn into or from Forbes onto Vrooman.  Men were employed to apply sand to the rails ahead of the trolleys climbing the hill.
                           
                          I have heard or read that the line was none too popular because of the hill.  When folks had a choice, they chose to go down Market St.
                           
                          PKL
                           

                           

                          To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          From: fjgrailroad@...
                          Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:01:36 -0500
                          Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY

                           
                          I thought the belt line went down Vrooman Street Hill.  I figured it had to cross the ACN right at the top of the hill.  Aren't there stories about heavy duty breaks being used because of Vrooman?  Maybe the busses went down Vrooman and I'm confusing a story?

                          Gino

                          On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Jerry Snyder <handyman756@...> wrote:
                           


                          Paul,
                          Your description is very close to the alternate I mentioned with the line running up James Street.  The rest of that one had it following the path you describe with Edson St. and Forest Ave.  That would make more sense than running it through the 5 corners, but that is the only map of the line that I have.  I've never been able to find a map showing it laid out as you describe, just the text description.  The map I sent Paul isn't dated but as it mentions Mohawk Mills Park it must be post 1934 when the name changed from Jollyland.  I know the Belt Line was shut down by then so maybe my map isn't accurate.  Given that the area where the lines crossed wasn't really very developed at the time, it would explain why none of the city directories note a street crossing.
                          Jerry

                          --- On Sun, 2/6/11, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:

                          From: Paul Larner <pklarner@...>
                          Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY
                          To: "FJGRailroad" <fjgrailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 10:31 AM


                           
                          The Belt line crossed the AC&N once. 
                           
                          After ascending Vrooman Ave. the line went left on Edward St. to a point that would be Pulaski St. today, where it turned right. Between there and Teller St. the AC&N was crossed at grade.  Turning left into Teller St. (laid out, but not an improved street at this time period) the line proceeded to James where it went right to Edson St. then left in Edson and across Church St.  After crossing Church the line went onto private right of way turning north and running several hundred feet parallel to Forest Avenue.  At this time, late twenties, Forest Avenue, like Teller Street, does not appear to be an improved street. After passing under the high tension wires, the belt line moves into the center of Forest Ave.  At Clarke St. the line follows the north side of Clarke to Sloane Ave., then to Clizbe and onto Rockton Jct.   Intermediate turnouts were on Teller St. and Forest Ave. shortly before the turn onto Clarke.
                           
                          PKL
                           


                          To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          From: handyman756@...
                          Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 06:28:53 +0000
                          Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY

                           
                          Gino,
                          The Amsterdam Belt Linn didn't cross the ACN on Vrooman Ave. The Belt Line turned off of Vrooman and went west on Edward Street before it got far enough north to hit the ACN. Depending on which map you believe, the Belt Line either crossed the ACN on James Street right where Kellogg Street joined James, or it ran diagonally from the intersection of Edward and James into that wonderful intersection we Amsterdamians call the "5 Corners". If that was the route it would have had to cross the ACN twice, once on the line going to Kellogg & Millers and the Sanford complex and again on the line running up to Smellie & Vorhees paper mill and the Upper Mohawk Mills. So far I haven't been able to pin down the exact route in that area.
                          Jerry

                          --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kelly's Heros" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download? Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.
                          >
                          > Gino
                          >
                          > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Charland <p.charlie@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi All,
                          > >
                          > > I'm working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I
                          > > was going to do a '70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
                          > > backdating what I have to the late 30s when the line used an 0-8-0 for
                          > > power, the Kellogg and Miller linseed oil plant was still active and the
                          > > FJ&G was still running the electric division through Amsterdam.
                          > >
                          > > I'm looking for any maps or photos that would show the line, I've been
                          > > able to download a 1931 map that appears to show a double track mainline
                          > > coming off East Main Street, turning southeast before it starts to
                          > > parallel the NYC yard... might even be where the eastbound lanes of
                          > > (new) Route 5 are now. If this is so, how did the NYC's Kellogg Branch
                          > > and the FJ&G trackage cross, at grade, or did the NYC have the ramp and
                          > > overpass they have now back then?
                          > >
                          > > Any help would be appreciated.
                          > >
                          > > Paul :-)
                          > >
                          >







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                          http://fjgrr.org
                          http://ginosrailpage.com
                          http://ginostrolleypage.com
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                        • Gino's Railpage
                          OK, I thought it went down the hill at one time or another and couldn t believe the grade they had to manage... ... -- http://fjgrr.org
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 8, 2011
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                            OK, I thought it went down the hill at one time or another and couldn't believe the grade they had
                            to manage...

                            On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                             

                            What ascends can also descends; my mind was riding one of the east bound trips to Rockton Jct.  The line went both up and down Vrooman.  The magnetic brakes used in Amsterdam were originally required because of the Market Street hill.  All Amsterdam "city" cars were equipped with the magnetic brakes.  Vrooman Ave line wasn't constructed until 1911.  Shortly after, can't recall off the top of my head, the line was relocated to use Forbes and Lark Sts., thereby avoiding the lower part of the grade.  IIRC, you can see lclearly where the tracks made the turn into or from Forbes onto Vrooman.  Men were employed to apply sand to the rails ahead of the trolleys climbing the hill.
                             
                            I have heard or read that the line was none too popular because of the hill.  When folks had a choice, they chose to go down Market St.


                             
                            PKL
                             

                             

                            To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            From: fjgrailroad@...
                            Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:01:36 -0500

                            Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY

                             
                            I thought the belt line went down Vrooman Street Hill.  I figured it had to cross the ACN right at the top of the hill.  Aren't there stories about heavy duty breaks being used because of Vrooman?  Maybe the busses went down Vrooman and I'm confusing a story?

                            Gino

                            On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Jerry Snyder <handyman756@...> wrote:
                             


                            Paul,
                            Your description is very close to the alternate I mentioned with the line running up James Street.  The rest of that one had it following the path you describe with Edson St. and Forest Ave.  That would make more sense than running it through the 5 corners, but that is the only map of the line that I have.  I've never been able to find a map showing it laid out as you describe, just the text description.  The map I sent Paul isn't dated but as it mentions Mohawk Mills Park it must be post 1934 when the name changed from Jollyland.  I know the Belt Line was shut down by then so maybe my map isn't accurate.  Given that the area where the lines crossed wasn't really very developed at the time, it would explain why none of the city directories note a street crossing.
                            Jerry

                            --- On Sun, 2/6/11, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:

                            From: Paul Larner <pklarner@...>
                            Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY
                            To: "FJGRailroad" <fjgrailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011, 10:31 AM


                             
                            The Belt line crossed the AC&N once. 
                             
                            After ascending Vrooman Ave. the line went left on Edward St. to a point that would be Pulaski St. today, where it turned right. Between there and Teller St. the AC&N was crossed at grade.  Turning left into Teller St. (laid out, but not an improved street at this time period) the line proceeded to James where it went right to Edson St. then left in Edson and across Church St.  After crossing Church the line went onto private right of way turning north and running several hundred feet parallel to Forest Avenue.  At this time, late twenties, Forest Avenue, like Teller Street, does not appear to be an improved street. After passing under the high tension wires, the belt line moves into the center of Forest Ave.  At Clarke St. the line follows the north side of Clarke to Sloane Ave., then to Clizbe and onto Rockton Jct.   Intermediate turnouts were on Teller St. and Forest Ave. shortly before the turn onto Clarke.
                             
                            PKL
                             


                            To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            From: handyman756@...
                            Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 06:28:53 +0000
                            Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: Amsterdam, NY

                             
                            Gino,
                            The Amsterdam Belt Linn didn't cross the ACN on Vrooman Ave. The Belt Line turned off of Vrooman and went west on Edward Street before it got far enough north to hit the ACN. Depending on which map you believe, the Belt Line either crossed the ACN on James Street right where Kellogg Street joined James, or it ran diagonally from the intersection of Edward and James into that wonderful intersection we Amsterdamians call the "5 Corners". If that was the route it would have had to cross the ACN twice, once on the line going to Kellogg & Millers and the Sanford complex and again on the line running up to Smellie & Vorhees paper mill and the Upper Mohawk Mills. So far I haven't been able to pin down the exact route in that area.
                            Jerry

                            --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Kelly's Heros" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Paul Larner knows these answers for sure! What map did you download? Don't forget, the Amsterdam BeltLine crossed the ACN on Vrooman Ave.
                            >
                            > Gino
                            >
                            > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Charland <p.charlie@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi All,
                            > >
                            > > I'm working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I
                            > > was going to do a '70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
                            > > backdating what I have to the late 30s when the line used an 0-8-0 for
                            > > power, the Kellogg and Miller linseed oil plant was still active and the
                            > > FJ&G was still running the electric division through Amsterdam.
                            > >
                            > > I'm looking for any maps or photos that would show the line, I've been
                            > > able to download a 1931 map that appears to show a double track mainline
                            > > coming off East Main Street, turning southeast before it starts to
                            > > parallel the NYC yard... might even be where the eastbound lanes of
                            > > (new) Route 5 are now. If this is so, how did the NYC's Kellogg Branch
                            > > and the FJ&G trackage cross, at grade, or did the NYC have the ramp and
                            > > overpass they have now back then?
                            > >
                            > > Any help would be appreciated.
                            > >
                            > > Paul :-)
                            > >
                            >











                            --
                            http://fjgrr.org
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                          • John
                            I ll add a few miscellaneous thoughts on this topic. 1..Selkirk Yard has been around for a long time. There was some sort of yard there back in the early
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 10, 2011
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                              I'll add a few miscellaneous thoughts on this topic.

                              1..Selkirk Yard has been around for a long time. There was some sort of yard there back in the early 1900's to serve freights using the Hoffmans connection built between the West Shore and Water Level to take freight off West Albany Hill. I think this link was put in around 1900 but not sure. Selkirk in its present state came about in the mid 60's under the NYC Perlman reign when the yard was fully rebuilt.

                              2..In the 1970's and until the FJG shut down (I don't know what went on before the 1970's but I assume it was the same)there was a local based out of Amsterdam Yard (along the main). It was an SW1 plus standard PC transfer Caboose until Conrail replaced with a GP15 or other GP's. The power and caboose would always park on the siding on the north side of the yard up against the crossing on the west end of Amsterdam Yard. There were a few times in the early 80's when the FJG was booming that this local was assigned to Fonda with the power parked on the Agway siding. Once the FJG basically shut down the local was moved to South Schenectady (more or less on the timing). During the late 70's and aerly 80's I saw road freights service the FJG interchange as well as the Amsterdam local. Not sure what rhyme or reason was used to decide how cars were delivered to the FJG but I often saw FJG cars in Amsterdam yard.

                              3..Regarding where the Amsterdam local steam power was serviced in that era, I am just guessing but I would assume it went to West Albany for major service unless there were servicing facilities in Sand Bank Yard.

                              John

                              --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Charland <p.charlie@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi All,
                              >
                              > I'm working on the Kellogg Branch in Microsoft Train Sim. Originally I
                              > was going to do a '70s version of the branch but have been thinking of
                              > backdating what I have to the late 30s when the line used an 0-8-0 for
                              > power, the Kellogg and Miller linseed oil plant was still active and the
                              > FJ&G was still running the electric division through Amsterdam.
                              >
                              > I'm looking for any maps or photos that would show the line, I've been
                              > able to download a 1931 map that appears to show a double track mainline
                              > coming off East Main Street, turning southeast before it starts to
                              > parallel the NYC yard... might even be where the eastbound lanes of
                              > (new) Route 5 are now. If this is so, how did the NYC's Kellogg Branch
                              > and the FJ&G trackage cross, at grade, or did the NYC have the ramp and
                              > overpass they have now back then?
                              >
                              > Any help would be appreciated.
                              >
                              > Paul :-)
                              >
                            • Paul Charland
                              Hi John, I have a few hundred Conrail consists from late 78 to early 79 that a friend dug out of the garbage from the office at DeWitt yard. A few have
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 11, 2011
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                                Hi John,

                                I have a few hundred Conrail consists from late '78 to early '79 that a
                                friend "dug out of the garbage" from the office at DeWitt yard. A few
                                have cars destined for Fonda and the FJ&G, these were otherwise through
                                freights making the odd stop here and there. I also noticed FJ&G cars
                                heading to Amsterdam, pretty much all were for Coleco and I wondered if
                                they originated at one of the Coleco facilities on the FJ&G and were
                                "inter-plant" shipments.

                                Paul :-)

                                On 10/02/2011 9:28 PM, John wrote:
                                > I'll add a few miscellaneous thoughts on this topic.
                                >
                                > 1..Selkirk Yard has been around for a long time. There was some sort
                                > of yard there back in the early 1900's to serve freights using the
                                > Hoffmans connection built between the West Shore and Water Level to
                                > take freight off West Albany Hill. I think this link was put in
                                > around 1900 but not sure. Selkirk in its present state came about in
                                > the mid 60's under the NYC Perlman reign when the yard was fully
                                > rebuilt.
                                >
                                > 2..In the 1970's and until the FJG shut down (I don't know what went
                                > on before the 1970's but I assume it was the same)there was a local
                                > based out of Amsterdam Yard (along the main). It was an SW1 plus
                                > standard PC transfer Caboose until Conrail replaced with a GP15 or
                                > other GP's. The power and caboose would always park on the siding on
                                > the north side of the yard up against the crossing on the west end of
                                > Amsterdam Yard. There were a few times in the early 80's when the FJG
                                > was booming that this local was assigned to Fonda with the power
                                > parked on the Agway siding. Once the FJG basically shut down the
                                > local was moved to South Schenectady (more or less on the timing).
                                > During the late 70's and aerly 80's I saw road freights service the
                                > FJG interchange as well as the Amsterdam local. Not sure what rhyme
                                > or reason was used to decide how cars were delivered to the FJG but I
                                > often saw FJG cars in Amsterdam yard.
                                >
                                > 3..Regarding where the Amsterdam local steam power was serviced in
                                > that era, I am just guessing but I would assume it went to West
                                > Albany for major service unless there were servicing facilities in
                                > Sand Bank Yard.
                                >
                                > John
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