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Lumber and All Door Questions

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  • John
    I had 3 questions...... First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
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      I had 3 questions......

      First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.

      Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.

      Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the blue DO all doors?
    • Dicarlo, Gino
      John, Mark Wilbur, Aaron or Mark Jacob can fill in all the details, but offer what I know. I believe the lumber shipped out of Broadalbin came from Martin
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
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        John,

         

        Mark Wilbur, Aaron or Mark Jacob can fill in all the details, but offer what I know.  I believe the lumber shipped out of Broadalbin came from Martin Lumber near Lake George.  I guess they had a dispute with the D&H and decided to truck the wood to Broadalbin and ship from there.

         

        As for the D&H cars, there was a lumber mill in Portlandville on the DH/CACV that shipped. .  I think those cars  originally had D&H marks and DH Shields, but Cooperstown and Charlotte Valley lettering.  Of course, I may be wrong.

         

        I'll look up my Martin Lumber info.

         

        Gino

         

        From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
        Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:09 PM
        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [FJGRailroad] Lumber and All Door Questions

         

         

        I had 3 questions......

        First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.

        Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.

        Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the blue DO all doors?

      • Dicarlo, Gino
        Here s a great story of winter on the Broadalbin Line from Mark Wilbur. It mentions Martin Lumber... What saved Broadalbin in the late 70 s was Martin Lumber.
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 23, 2009
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          Here's a great story of winter on the Broadalbin Line from Mark Wilbur.  It mentions Martin Lumber...

           

          What saved Broadalbin in the late 70's was Martin Lumber. If it wasn't for

          them, they'd probably still would of shut down that line in the winter.

          Those winters up there were horrible.  Some days and nights all we would do

          was picking ice at the crossings. Minus 0 degrees at night was basically a

          every night thing for us to work in. I'll never forget Super bowl Sunday in

          1980. Hauling up the tracks with about 10 empty lumber cars going by Coleco

          at Patch. Ice had accumulated on top of the tracks. We found ourselves

          fishtailing, then sliding down the tracks at 90 degrees.  Then slid off and

          down a small bank. What a mess. That was with #20. Next day, just happen #21

          was inside Coleco. We went in to get that to help out the re-railing job.

          We derailed that at the switch. After 3 or 4 days everything was back

          on. 

           

          Mark

           

          From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
          Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:09 PM
          To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [FJGRailroad] Lumber and All Door Questions

           

           

          I had 3 questions......

          First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.

          Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.

          Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the blue DO all doors?

        • stevefjg30
          If I remember correctly Martin Lumber company is the company that shipped the lumber from Broadalbin.They were located near Lake George NY.They were supposed
          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 24, 2009
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            If I remember correctly Martin Lumber company is the company that shipped the lumber from Broadalbin.They were located near Lake George NY.They were supposed to ship with the D&H out of FT.Edward but dissagread on a shipping cost,they intern went to Broadalbin and the FJ&G.They started shipping I belive in 1976 the shed went up around 79 I think.They shipped lumber to a furniture company in High point North Carolina . Hope this helps.

            Steve Lamora


            --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...> wrote:
            >
            > Here's a great story of winter on the Broadalbin Line from Mark Wilbur. It mentions Martin Lumber...
            >
            > What saved Broadalbin in the late 70's was Martin Lumber. If it wasn't for
            > them, they'd probably still would of shut down that line in the winter.
            > Those winters up there were horrible. Some days and nights all we would do
            > was picking ice at the crossings. Minus 0 degrees at night was basically a
            > every night thing for us to work in. I'll never forget Super bowl Sunday in
            > 1980. Hauling up the tracks with about 10 empty lumber cars going by Coleco
            > at Patch. Ice had accumulated on top of the tracks. We found ourselves
            > fishtailing, then sliding down the tracks at 90 degrees. Then slid off and
            > down a small bank. What a mess. That was with #20. Next day, just happen #21
            > was inside Coleco. We went in to get that to help out the re-railing job.
            > We derailed that at the switch. After 3 or 4 days everything was back
            > on.
            >
            > Mark
            >
            > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
            > Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:09 PM
            > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [FJGRailroad] Lumber and All Door Questions
            >
            >
            >
            > I had 3 questions......
            >
            > First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.
            >
            > Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.
            >
            > Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the blue DO all doors?
            >
          • Mark Wilber
            The black CACV All Door Cars were first used by a lumber company in Portlandville on the CACV. Matter of fact, there were postcards circulating of a CACV
            Message 5 of 10 , Dec 24, 2009
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              The black CACV All Door Cars were first used by a lumber company in Portlandville on the CACV. Matter of fact, there were postcards circulating of a CACV All-Door car being loaded in Portlandville.


              From: stevefjg30 <slamora1@...>
              To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, December 24, 2009 6:34:04 AM
              Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: Lumber and All Door Questions

               

              If I remember correctly Martin Lumber company is the company that shipped the lumber from Broadalbin.They were located near Lake George NY.They were supposed to ship with the D&H out of FT.Edward but dissagread on a shipping cost,they intern went to Broadalbin and the FJ&G.They started shipping I belive in 1976 the shed went up around 79 I think.They shipped lumber to a furniture company in High point North Carolina . Hope this helps.

              Steve Lamora


              --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ ...> wrote:
              >
              > Here's a great story of winter on the Broadalbin Line from Mark Wilbur. It mentions Martin Lumber...
              >
              > What saved Broadalbin in the late 70's was Martin Lumber. If it wasn't for
              > them, they'd probably still would of shut down that line in the winter.
              > Those winters up there were horrible. Some days and nights all we would do
              > was picking ice at the crossings. Minus 0 degrees at night was basically a
              > every night thing for us to work in. I'll never forget Super bowl Sunday in
              > 1980. Hauling up the tracks with about 10 empty lumber cars going by Coleco
              > at Patch. Ice had accumulated on top of the tracks. We found ourselves
              > fishtailing, then sliding down the tracks at 90 degrees. Then slid off and
              > down a small bank. What a mess. That was with #20. Next day, just happen #21
              > was inside Coleco. We went in to get that to help out the re-railing job.
              > We derailed that at the switch. After 3 or 4 days everything was back
              > on.
              >
              > Mark
              >
              > From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:09 PM
              > To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
              > Subject: [FJGRailroad] Lumber and All Door Questions
              >
              >
              >
              > I had 3 questions... ...
              >
              > First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.
              >
              > Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.
              >
              > Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the blue DO all doors?
              >


            • Mark Wilber
              Couldnt happen on a better day. Because of the derailment,we were home by the 2nd half of the game. ________________________________ From: Dicarlo, Gino
              Message 6 of 10 , Dec 24, 2009
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                Couldnt happen on a better day. Because of the derailment,we were home by the 2nd half of the game.


                From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 10:48:23 PM
                Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Lumber and All Door Questions

                 

                Here's a great story of winter on the Broadalbin Line from Mark Wilbur.  It mentions Martin Lumber...

                 

                What saved Broadalbin in the late 70's was Martin Lumber. If it wasn't for

                them, they'd probably still would of shut down that line in the winter.

                Those winters up there were horrible.  Some days and nights all we would do

                was picking ice at the crossings. Minus 0 degrees at night was basically a

                every night thing for us to work in. I'll never forget Super bowl Sunday in

                1980. Hauling up the tracks with about 10 empty lumber cars going by Coleco

                at Patch. Ice had accumulated on top of the tracks. We found ourselves

                fishtailing, then sliding down the tracks at 90 degrees.  Then slid off and

                down a small bank. What a mess. That was with #20. Next day, just happen #21

                was inside Coleco. We went in to get that to help out the re-railing job.

                We derailed that at the switch. After 3 or 4 days everything was back

                on. 

                 

                Mark

                 

                From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
                Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:09 PM
                To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: [FJGRailroad] Lumber and All Door Questions

                 

                 

                I had 3 questions... ...

                First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.

                Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.

                Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the blue DO all doors?


              • John
                As a follow up to my original questions.... Gino, thanks for posting the LH alldoor article. Joe, can you post those 3 articles in the files section or does
                Message 7 of 10 , Dec 30, 2009
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                  As a follow up to my original questions....

                  Gino, thanks for posting the LH alldoor article. Joe, can you post those 3 articles in the files section or does copyright not allow that? After reading the alldoor article (and reading the responses to my original post) I was wondering why they decided to put the lumber load facility in Broadalbin. While Broadalbin is closer to Lake George then Gville it would have been logistically easier for the FJG if they trucked the lumber to the G'ville yard for transload--or for that matter, why not just load direct on Conrail at Fonda (siding west of village that Keymark used occassionally) or Conrail West Albany transload? Maybe it had something to do with number of roundtrips a driver could make per shift to get the lumber to the railhead?

                  Regarding those CACV black alldoors, I am still curious why they were originally painted with DH reporting marks and shields but Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley heralds. If they were originally DH cars why not have D&H spelled out on the cars. Just seems like an odd mix and can't recall other examples of cars being jointly painted for a class one and shortline. I realize they soon became pure CACV boxcars. The D&H Color Guide has a picture of the car in as delivered lettering.



                  --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jsesonske@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I had 3 questions......
                  >
                  > First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.
                  >
                  > Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.
                  >
                  > Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the blue DO all doors?
                  >
                • Dicarlo, Gino
                  My guess is the D&H used Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley a lot like they used G&J on their equipment used on the G&J. Even though they owned the CACV from
                  Message 8 of 10 , Dec 30, 2009
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                    My guess is the D&H used 'Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley' a lot like they used G&J on their equipment used

                    on the G&J.  Even though they owned the CACV from around 1901 to 1972, they still put Cooperstown and

                    blah, blah, blah on things.  In that same thread, I don't know if they ever put "Cherry Valley" on anything!

                     

                    Gino

                     

                    From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
                    Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 4:12 PM
                    To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: Lumber and All Door Questions

                     

                     

                    As a follow up to my original questions....

                    Gino, thanks for posting the LH alldoor article. Joe, can you post those 3 articles in the files section or does copyright not allow that? After reading the alldoor article (and reading the responses to my original post) I was wondering why they decided to put the lumber load facility in Broadalbin. While Broadalbin is closer to Lake George then Gville it would have been logistically easier for the FJG if they trucked the lumber to the G'ville yard for transload--or for that matter, why not just load direct on Conrail at Fonda (siding west of village that Keymark used occassionally) or Conrail West Albany transload? Maybe it had something to do with number of roundtrips a driver could make per shift to get the lumber to the railhead?

                    Regarding those CACV black alldoors, I am still curious why they were originally painted with DH reporting marks and shields but Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley heralds. If they were originally DH cars why not have D&H spelled out on the cars. Just seems like an odd mix and can't recall other examples of cars being jointly painted for a class one and shortline. I realize they soon became pure CACV boxcars. The D&H Color Guide has a picture of the car in as delivered lettering.

                    --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jsesonske@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > I had 3 questions......
                    >
                    > First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why
                    did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.
                    >
                    > Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open
                    shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.
                    >
                    > Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the
                    blue DO all doors?
                    >

                  • slamora1@nycap.rr.com
                    John I would say the reason for shipping with the FJ&G is they gave Martin Lumber the best shipping rate.Conrail was probebly higher on shipping charges than
                    Message 9 of 10 , Dec 30, 2009
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                      John I would say the reason for shipping with the FJ&G is they gave Martin Lumber the best shipping rate.Conrail was probebly higher on shipping charges than the D&H,The reason for Broadalbin as a shipping point could have been the FJ&G looking for longer ship rate as well?They could have loaded them in the west yard there was plenty of room or over by the Daniel Hayes Glove company.

                      Steve Lamora

                      --- John <jsesonske@...> wrote:
                      > As a follow up to my original questions....
                      >
                      > Gino, thanks for posting the LH alldoor article. Joe, can you post those 3 articles in the files section or does copyright not allow that? After reading the alldoor article (and reading the responses to my original post) I was wondering why they decided to put the lumber load facility in Broadalbin. While Broadalbin is closer to Lake George then Gville it would have been logistically easier for the FJG if they trucked the lumber to the G'ville yard for transload--or for that matter, why not just load direct on Conrail at Fonda (siding west of village that Keymark used occassionally) or Conrail West Albany transload? Maybe it had something to do with number of roundtrips a driver could make per shift to get the lumber to the railhead?
                      >
                      > Regarding those CACV black alldoors, I am still curious why they were originally painted with DH reporting marks and shields but Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley heralds. If they were originally DH cars why not have D&H spelled out on the cars. Just seems like an odd mix and can't recall other examples of cars being jointly painted for a class one and shortline. I realize they soon became pure CACV boxcars. The D&H Color Guide has a picture of the car in as delivered lettering.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jsesonske@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I had 3 questions......
                      > >
                      > > First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.
                      > >
                      > > Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.
                      > >
                      > > Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the blue DO all doors?
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • John
                      It must have been something like that unless it was car availability since Conrail had no all doors. Of course the D&H did not have any either. I have no idea
                      Message 10 of 10 , Dec 30, 2009
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                        It must have been something like that unless it was car availability since Conrail had no all doors. Of course the D&H did not have any either. I have no idea how rates worked back in the late 70's before rate deregulation. I know that after deregulation it should have been cheaper to avoid the FJG since Conrail still wants their cut once they got the cars in Fonda. In theory the FJG just adds another railroad looking for a portion of the rate or a larger rate to cover the extra railroad.

                        --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, <slamora1@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > John I would say the reason for shipping with the FJ&G is they gave Martin Lumber the best shipping rate.Conrail was probebly higher on shipping charges than the D&H,The reason for Broadalbin as a shipping point could have been the FJ&G looking for longer ship rate as well?They could have loaded them in the west yard there was plenty of room or over by the Daniel Hayes Glove company.
                        >
                        > Steve Lamora
                        >
                        > --- John <jsesonske@...> wrote:
                        > > As a follow up to my original questions....
                        > >
                        > > Gino, thanks for posting the LH alldoor article. Joe, can you post those 3 articles in the files section or does copyright not allow that? After reading the alldoor article (and reading the responses to my original post) I was wondering why they decided to put the lumber load facility in Broadalbin. While Broadalbin is closer to Lake George then Gville it would have been logistically easier for the FJG if they trucked the lumber to the G'ville yard for transload--or for that matter, why not just load direct on Conrail at Fonda (siding west of village that Keymark used occassionally) or Conrail West Albany transload? Maybe it had something to do with number of roundtrips a driver could make per shift to get the lumber to the railhead?
                        > >
                        > > Regarding those CACV black alldoors, I am still curious why they were originally painted with DH reporting marks and shields but Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley heralds. If they were originally DH cars why not have D&H spelled out on the cars. Just seems like an odd mix and can't recall other examples of cars being jointly painted for a class one and shortline. I realize they soon became pure CACV boxcars. The D&H Color Guide has a picture of the car in as delivered lettering.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "John" <jsesonske@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I had 3 questions......
                        > > >
                        > > > First, does anyone know the story behind the black CACV All Door cars. Why did they initially have DH reporting marks but CACV heralds and why did CACV need them. Were they just per diem cars? I do not believe they were for originating loads on the CACV or were they. I think I initially remember them bringing some loads onto the FJG and then they ended up in the Broadalbin pool.
                        > > >
                        > > > Second, regarding the Broadalbin lumber business, this was just an open shed south of the station. Where was the lumber cut and who was doing it. Seemed like this operation just sprung up with little publicity and then disappeared just as quickly and quietly (at least as much as I remember). They did load a lot of cars while they were in business.
                        > > >
                        > > > Finally, does anyone know of any lettering diagrams in existence for the blue DO all doors?
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
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