Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

FJG-NYSW-DO-Some More Thoughts

Expand Messages
  • John
    I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts. Walt was obviously a savy
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.

      Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections. If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.

      Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.

      Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.


      I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)

      The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.
    • Paul Larner
      The announcement of the passage of the Motor Carrier act of 1980 did indeed sound the deathknell for the FJ&G. Once the trucking industry deregulated any one
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        The announcement of the passage of the Motor Carrier act of 1980 did indeed sound the deathknell for the FJ&G.  Once the trucking industry deregulated any one who could afford a tractor and pass the driver's test could hook onto a trailer and deliver the goods at whatever price they needed.  The ground transportation ballgame changed forever.  Whether the shift of Coleco's traffic from rail delivery at the junction to a transload operation from Utica led or followed the decision to close the line, deregulation certainly contributed to its feasibility.  Dereg definitely impacted the transportation of raw skins.  Where previously skins would arrive at port to be transloaded into boxcars for shipment to Johnstown, it was now practicable to containerize them at initial point of shipment for same box delivery in Johnstown at rates and conditions unavailable in the previously regulated environment. 
         
        Neither of these business decisions however happened in a vacuum.  They are not exclusive events but participate in the downward trend of business activity in the Glove cities starting prior to World War 2.  The FJ&G directors and then Walter made astute buisiness decisions in getting out when became obvious.  One sign of a successful businessman is when he knows his enterprise is failing or going to fail, he gets out and quickly.  You leave the "what ifs" to some one else and move on.  The FJ&G management understood their railroad no longer served their bisiness interests.  Their decision to move on involved no government subsidies, guarantees or subsidiary companies performing maintenance and other business functions chargeable to the principle operating company, FJ&G.  The FJ&G board essentially paid the bills, turned out the light and locked the door behind them at the end of 1973.
         
        A need for transportation in the cities was real and accordingly the affected manufacturers joined together to secure state funding and an operator to fulfill meet their requirements.  This was an opportunity shared by young and financially able entrepreneurs throughout the country, taking advantage of a changed legal environment as "class ones" rationalized their operations.  DO was the right company to undertake the operation of the FJ&G.  The methodology was opportunistic and parasitic, as much as necessary for the continued success of the affected businesses.  The ownership accrued to the DO, who through a paper company merged the FJ&G with the Montrose Railway.  DO thereafter operated the former FJ&G property as their own for as long as it too could see a future. 
         
        Did DO invest in the FJ&G?  Well, I suppose you could say so, corporately.  DO took a measured risk in acquiring the property with a loan in the same way any investor capitalizes on his equity to purchase additional properties.  One secured by the equity in the other.  It was a smart move.  After the operation dissolved the debt was retired from the proceeds received from the sale of certain parts of the property to the municipalities (after more than ten years of subsidized appreciation).  In the meantime taxpayer money was expended to improve the infrastructure from which observation we shared a belief the FJ&G line was going to continue as "always" serving the Glove cities.
         
        The land on the cities line, where the Omnicology plant was constructed, had provided hope for industrial development for decades.  I recall in the early 60's the hope a plywood manufacturer would locate in there.  What a boon that would have been for the FJ&G, at least for a couple decades.  (I am reminded of this when I see the plywood plant on the east end of Whitehall.)  Omnicology was akin to the Feldspar plant at Cranberry Creek when the decision was made not to relocate the Northville line; their need for rail may have been perceived as essential but it was not sufficient.
         
        I take exception to the premise contained in the volumes titled "When the railroad left town..."  Businesses and towns did not die, or decline, because the railroads abandoned them.  On the contrary, the businesses and industries which supported the railroad either failed or chose alternative means of transporting their raw materials and products.  My analogy is to consider the railroad merely a tool in the means of production and distribution.  It is a service industry, an industry in which many of us have been able to provide well for ourselves and families.  A railroad produces nothing but labor, every bit of it dedicated to providing and improving its service.  But as a tool it must maintain its utility and economy or it will be replaced.  
         
        You do all you can, give all that you have or can get from the taxpayer and hope to make a profit.  Hasn't the latter become the American model?  When the money runs out you must move on. 
         
        Here's the story from a Leader-Herald story in April of 1984:
         
         

        DOT Specialist Tells Chamber Board - FJ&G Study Shows Line Not Needed.

         

                         Positive attitudes don't run a railroad.

         

                         That was the message Charles Kelefant, a rail transportation specialist with the state Department of Transportation (DOT), delivered to the Fulton County Area Chamber of Commerce and Industry at its board of directors meeting this morning.

         

                         Kelefant told board members he had completed a survey of 25 to 30 users and former users of the FJ&G Railroad and found "a positive attitude for keeping it, but no strong business sense a railroad is needed."

         

                         Inventories are not being built up and this precludes carload size orders, the DOT official explained.  Rail and truck rates are close, but for smaller loads, trucks are more convenient.

         

                         The Delaware Otsego System, which has operated the line over the past few years has indicated it will cease operations May 1 and pursue abandonment  procedures after that.

         

                         The rails and other hardware should stay in place for a year or more, Kelefant estimated.

         

                         The three industries hardest hit may be Omnicology, the Fultonville Agway and Commonwealth Laboratories.  The three combined cannot support the line however.

         

                         "Hides are a different situation," Kelefant added.

         

                         What Karg Brothers Inc., a heavy rail user in the past, does is typical of hide shippers, he observed.  When leather companies went to South America for their supply of hides, the means of transport shifted.

         

                         The hides were brought to the port of Albany by container ship and the container put on trucks to Fulton county. Even when some leather companies went back to the Midwest for hides, shipping by container stayed.

         

                         Shippers like Karg, Risedorph and Wood and Hyde had boosted rail shipping by 1,000 carloads per year during the lines peak periods.  This year only three car have come up from Fonda.

         

                         The state has money available for branch line projects and has had success with them in the past, Kelefant pointed out.  Money for new rails, ties and some operating losses could come from the state.

         

                         In the past the state has provided from $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to the tracks on the grade up from Fonda and another $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to crossings.

         

                         "From a profit point of view, a trucking interest would be a superior investment," board member Clayton Sitterly commented.

         

                         The loss of the railroad represents the loss of a potential tool in attracting new business to Fulton county, Chamber Executive Vice President Mrs. Beverly Harris countered.

         

                         John Warner suggested the loss of the railroad might be turned into the chamber's advantage if it's underplayed and Fulton county's nearness to one of the best highway systems in the country stressed.

         

                         Kelefant cited municipal takeover or another shortline operator moving in as the only means of saving the line.  The hardware will be in place, but more than a positive attitude will be needed.  (Gloversville Leader-Herald)

         

        That amount of "more" was estimated to be $448,000.  So there you have a fair summation of the "why" the railroad died.  The state reached the conclusion they had passed enough taxpayer money, 3 to 3.4 million dollars, to the DO.  But it wasn't DO that caused the line to close; it was a changing transportation environment combined with a withering industrial base capable and willing to provide sustainable revenue to the FJ&G.  DO provided the service.

         

        This is longer than I hoped to write, it will be greatly expanded at the appropriate time, Vol 3.  Does this answer any questions or merely opened the floodgates.

         

        PKL

         

         

         

         



        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        From: jsesonske@...
        Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:33:48 +0000
        Subject: [FJGRailroad] FJG-NYSW-DO-Some More Thoughts

         

        I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.

        Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections. If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.

        Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.

        Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.

        I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)

        The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.




        Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
      • Dicarlo, Gino
        John, I wouldn t say you have the minority opinion on Walter Rich. There are many people out there who think Walter made his living by ripping off taxpayers
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
        • 0 Attachment

          John,

           

          I wouldn't say you have the minority opinion on Walter Rich.  There are many people out there who

          think Walter made his living by ripping off taxpayers in NY, PA and NJ.  We all are sharing our opinions,

          don't hesitate if you think you're in the minority.

           

          As for the NYSW comment, I referenced you because you mentioned something about the newly

          acquired NYSW and it made me think of my question to Walt.  That's all.

           

          Comments and questions need to constructive here, they don't have to be the status-quo.   I enjoy

          your observations a lot John, please keep them coming!

           

          Gino

           

          From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
          Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 3:34 PM
          To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [FJGRailroad] FJG-NYSW-DO-Some More Thoughts

           

           

          I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.

          Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections. If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.

          Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.

          Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.

          I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)

          The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.

        • joseph Klapkowski
          Well I do not disagree with anything Paul has said, But I think if you look back into the mid 1960s, you will see that one event in particular was a tell tale
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Well I do not disagree with anything Paul has said, But I think if you look back into the mid 1960s, you will see that one event in particular was a tell tale sign that the transportation scene was changing. There were two companies that attempted containerization early on. One was the New York Central. They had the flexivan concept. It worked okay but was not wildly sucessful.
            The other was an operation called SeaTrain. They bet on the containerization concept but with a box that was not the size that eventually became the standard. The industry settled on 20 and 40 foot boxes. ALL the container cranes on the planet are equipped to handle 20 or 40 foot boxes. If you look closely at the JB Hunt and Schnieder 53 foot boxes, they have the container friendly corners located at the 40 foot positions.
             
            The other thing about containerization is that domestic boxes are not seaworthy, meaning that they are not designed to keep the salt air out.  They are also not strong enough to carry the same loads (I am sure someone will correct me here).
             
            I was very  much under the impression that the FJ&G was buying hides out of Texas and when they shifted to hides from South America, those hides came in sea boxes. Why transload when you can deliver the box directly to the customer without handling it again. 
             

            To: fjgrailroad@yahoogroups.com
            From: pklarner@...
            Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:57:39 -0400
            Subject: [FJGRailroad] The End of the Line

             
            The announcement of the passage of the Motor Carrier act of 1980 did indeed sound the deathknell for the FJ&G.  Once the trucking industry deregulated any one who could afford a tractor and pass the driver's test could hook onto a trailer and deliver the goods at whatever price they needed.  The ground transportation ballgame changed forever.  Whether the shift of Coleco's traffic from rail delivery at the junction to a transload operation from Utica led or followed the decision to close the line, deregulation certainly contributed to its feasibility.  Dereg definitely impacted the transportation of raw skins.  Where previously skins would arrive at port to be transloaded into boxcars for shipment to Johnstown, it was now practicable to containerize them at initial point of shipment for same box delivery in Johnstown at rates and conditions unavailable in the previously regulated environment. 
             
            Neither of these business decisions however happened in a vacuum.  They are not exclusive events but participate in the downward trend of business activity in the Glove cities starting prior to World War 2.  The FJ&G directors and then Walter made astute buisiness decisions in getting out when became obvious.  One sign of a successful businessman is when he knows his enterprise is failing or going to fail, he gets out and quickly.  You leave the "what ifs" to some one else and move on.  The FJ&G management understood their railroad no longer served their bisiness interests.  Their decision to move on involved no government subsidies, guarantees or subsidiary companies performing maintenance and other business functions chargeable to the principle operating company, FJ&G.  The FJ&G board essentially paid the bills, turned out the light and locked the door behind them at the end of 1973.
             
            A need for transportation in the cities was real and accordingly the affected manufacturers joined together to secure state funding and an operator to fulfill meet their requirements.  This was an opportunity shared by young and financially able entrepreneurs throughout the country, taking advantage of a changed legal environment as "class ones" rationalized their operations.  DO was the right company to undertake the operation of the FJ&G.  The methodology was opportunistic and parasitic, as much as necessary for the continued success of the affected businesses.  The ownership accrued to the DO, who through a paper company merged the FJ&G with the Montrose Railway.  DO thereafter operated the former FJ&G property as their own for as long as it too could see a future. 
             
            Did DO invest in the FJ&G?  Well, I suppose you could say so, corporately.  DO took a measured risk in acquiring the property with a loan in the same way any investor capitalizes on his equity to purchase additional properties.  One secured by the equity in the other.  It was a smart move.  After the operation dissolved the debt was retired from the proceeds received from the sale of certain parts of the property to the municipalities (after more than ten years of subsidized appreciation) .  In the meantime taxpayer money was expended to improve the infrastructure from which observation we shared a belief the FJ&G line was going to continue as "always" serving the Glove cities.
             
            The land on the cities line, where the Omnicology plant was constructed, had provided hope for industrial development for decades.  I recall in the early 60's the hope a plywood manufacturer would locate in there.  What a boon that would have been for the FJ&G, at least for a couple decades.  (I am reminded of this when I see the plywood plant on the east end of Whitehall.)  Omnicology was akin to the Feldspar plant at Cranberry Creek when the decision was made not to relocate the Northville line; their need for rail may have been perceived as essential but it was not sufficient.
             
            I take exception to the premise contained in the volumes titled "When the railroad left town..."  Businesses and towns did not die, or decline, because the railroads abandoned them.  On the contrary, the businesses and industries which supported the railroad either failed or chose alternative means of transporting their raw materials and products.  My analogy is to consider the railroad merely a tool in the means of production and distribution.  It is a service industry, an industry in which many of us have been able to provide well for ourselves and families.  A railroad produces nothing but labor, every bit of it dedicated to providing and improving its service.  But as a tool it must maintain its utility and economy or it will be replaced.  
             
            You do all you can, give all that you have or can get from the taxpayer and hope to make a profit.  Hasn't the latter become the American model?  When the money runs out you must move on. 
             
            Here's the story from a Leader-Herald story in April of 1984:
             
             

            DOT Specialist Tells Chamber Board - FJ&G Study Shows Line Not Needed.

             

                             Positive attitudes don't run a railroad.

             

                             That was the message Charles Kelefant, a rail transportation specialist with the state Department of Transportation (DOT), delivered to the Fulton County Area Chamber of Commerce and Industry at its board of directors meeting this morning.

             

                             Kelefant told board members he had completed a survey of 25 to 30 users and former users of the FJ&G Railroad and found "a positive attitude for keeping it, but no strong business sense a railroad is needed."

             

                             Inventories are not being built up and this precludes carload size orders, the DOT official explained.  Rail and truck rates are close, but for smaller loads, trucks are more convenient.

             

                             The Delaware Otsego System, which has operated the line over the past few years has indicated it will cease operations May 1 and pursue abandonment  procedures after that.

             

                             The rails and other hardware should stay in place for a year or more, Kelefant estimated.

             

                             The three industries hardest hit may be Omnicology, the Fultonville Agway and Commonwealth Laboratories.  The three combined cannot support the line however.

             

                             "Hides are a different situation," Kelefant added.

             

                             What Karg Brothers Inc., a heavy rail user in the past, does is typical of hide shippers, he observed.  When leather companies went to South America for their supply of hides, the means of transport shifted.

             

                             The hides were brought to the port of Albany by container ship and the container put on trucks to Fulton county. Even when some leather companies went back to the Midwest for hides, shipping by container stayed.

             

                             Shippers like Karg, Risedorph and Wood and Hyde had boosted rail shipping by 1,000 carloads per year during the lines peak periods.  This year only three car have come up from Fonda.

             

                             The state has money available for branch line projects and has had success with them in the past, Kelefant pointed out.  Money for new rails, ties and some operating losses could come from the state.

             

                             In the past the state has provided from $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to the tracks on the grade up from Fonda and another $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to crossings.

             

                             "From a profit point of view, a trucking interest would be a superior investment," board member Clayton Sitterly commented.

             

                             The loss of the railroad represents the loss of a potential tool in attracting new business to Fulton county, Chamber Executive Vice President Mrs. Beverly Harris countered.

             

                             John Warner suggested the loss of the railroad might be turned into the chamber's advantage if it's underplayed and Fulton county's nearness to one of the best highway systems in the country stressed.

             

                             Kelefant cited municipal takeover or another shortline operator moving in as the only means of saving the line.  The hardware will be in place, but more than a positive attitude will be needed.  (Gloversville Leader-Herald)

             

            That amount of "more" was estimated to be $448,000.  So there you have a fair summation of the "why" the railroad died.  The state reached the conclusion they had passed enough taxpayer money, 3 to 3.4 million dollars, to the DO.  But it wasn't DO that caused the line to close; it was a changing transportation environment combined with a withering industrial base capable and willing to provide sustainable revenue to the FJ&G.  DO provided the service.

             

            This is longer than I hoped to write, it will be greatly expanded at the appropriate time, Vol 3.  Does this answer any questions or merely opened the floodgates.

             

            PKL

             

             

             

             



            To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
            From: jsesonske@aol. com
            Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:33:48 +0000
            Subject: [FJGRailroad] FJG-NYSW-DO- Some More Thoughts

             

            I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.

            Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections. If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.

            Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.

            Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.

            I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)

            The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.





            Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.



            Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
          • Dicarlo, Gino
            My uncle owns Perrone Leather in Gloversville. They took a hard hit when the hides business switched from American hides to like Joe said, South America and
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
            • 0 Attachment

              My uncle owns Perrone Leather in Gloversville.  They took a hard hit when the hides business switched

              from American hides to like Joe said, South America and also the Philippines.  They transformed their

              leather business to a specialty leather business and are still in business.  A lot of the smaller shops are

              not.

               

              Gino

               

              From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of joseph Klapkowski
              Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:02 PM
              To: Fonda Johnstown
              Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] The End of the Line

               

               

              Well I do not disagree with anything Paul has said, But I think if you look back into the mid 1960s, you will see that one event in particular was a tell tale sign that the transportation scene was changing. There were two companies that attempted containerization early on. One was the New York Central. They had the flexivan concept. It worked okay but was not wildly sucessful.
              The other was an operation called SeaTrain. They bet on the containerization concept but with a box that was not the size that eventually became the standard. The industry settled on 20 and 40 foot boxes. ALL the container cranes on the planet are equipped to handle 20 or 40 foot boxes. If you look closely at the JB Hunt and Schnieder 53 foot boxes, they have the container friendly corners located at the 40 foot positions.
               
              The other thing about containerization is that domestic boxes are not seaworthy, meaning that they are not designed to keep the salt air out.  They are also not strong enough to carry the same loads (I am sure someone will correct me here).
               
              I was very  much under the impression that the FJ&G was buying hides out of Texas and when they shifted to hides from South America, those hides came in sea boxes. Why transload when you can deliver the box directly to the customer without handling it again. 
               


              To: fjgrailroad@yahoogroups.com
              From: pklarner@...
              Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:57:39 -0400
              Subject: [FJGRailroad] The End of the Line

               

              The announcement of the passage of the Motor Carrier act of 1980 did indeed sound the deathknell for the FJ&G.  Once the trucking industry deregulated any one who could afford a tractor and pass the driver's test could hook onto a trailer and deliver the goods at whatever price they needed.  The ground transportation ballgame changed forever.  Whether the shift of Coleco's traffic from rail delivery at the junction to a transload operation from Utica led or followed the decision to close the line, deregulation certainly contributed to its feasibility.  Dereg definitely impacted the transportation of raw skins.  Where previously skins would arrive at port to be transloaded into boxcars for shipment to Johnstown, it was now practicable to containerize them at initial point of shipment for same box delivery in Johnstown at rates and conditions unavailable in the previously regulated environment. 
               
              Neither of these business decisions however happened in a vacuum.  They are not exclusive events but participate in the downward trend of business activity in the Glove cities starting prior to World War 2.  The FJ&G directors and then Walter made astute buisiness decisions in getting out when became obvious.  One sign of a successful businessman is when he knows his enterprise is failing or going to fail, he gets out and quickly.  You leave the "what ifs" to some one else and move on.  The FJ&G management understood their railroad no longer served their bisiness interests.  Their decision to move on involved no government subsidies, guarantees or subsidiary companies performing maintenance and other business functions chargeable to the principle operating company, FJ&G.  The FJ&G board essentially paid the bills, turned out the light and locked the door behind them at the end of 1973.
               
              A need for transportation in the cities was real and accordingly the affected manufacturers joined together to secure state funding and an operator to fulfill meet their requirements.  This was an opportunity shared by young and financially able entrepreneurs throughout the country, taking advantage of a changed legal environment as "class ones" rationalized their operations.  DO was the right company to undertake the operation of the FJ&G.  The methodology was opportunistic and parasitic, as much as necessary for the continued success of the affected businesses.  The ownership accrued to the DO, who through a paper company merged the FJ&G with the Montrose Railway.  DO thereafter operated the former FJ&G property as their own for as long as it too could see a future. 
               
              Did DO invest in the FJ&G?  Well, I suppose you could say so, corporately.  DO took a measured risk in acquiring the property with a loan in the same way any investor capitalizes on his equity to purchase additional properties.  One secured by the equity in the other.  It was a smart move.  After the operation dissolved the debt was retired from the proceeds received from the sale of certain parts of the property to the municipalities (after more than ten years of subsidized appreciation).  In the meantime taxpayer money was expended to improve the infrastructure from which observation we shared a belief the FJ&G line was going to continue as "always" serving the Glove cities.
               
              The land on the cities line, where the Omnicology plant was constructed, had provided hope for industrial development for decades.  I recall in the early 60's the hope a plywood manufacturer would locate in there.  What a boon that would have been for the FJ&G, at least for a couple decades.  (I am reminded of this when I see the plywood plant on the east end of Whitehall.)  Omnicology was akin to the Feldspar plant at Cranberry Creek when the decision was made not to relocate the Northville line; their need for rail may have been perceived as essential but it was not sufficient.
               
              I take exception to the premise contained in the volumes titled "When the railroad left town..."  Businesses and towns did not die, or decline, because the railroads abandoned them.  On the contrary, the businesses and industries which supported the railroad either failed or chose alternative means of transporting their raw materials and products.  My analogy is to consider the railroad merely a tool in the means of production and distribution.  It is a service industry, an industry in which many of us have been able to provide well for ourselves and families.  A railroad produces nothing but labor, every bit of it dedicated to providing and improving its service.  But as a tool it must maintain its utility and economy or it will be replaced.  
               
              You do all you can, give all that you have or can get from the taxpayer and hope to make a profit.  Hasn't the latter become the American model?  When the money runs out you must move on. 
               
              Here's the story from a Leader-Herald story in April of 1984:
               
               

              DOT Specialist Tells Chamber Board - FJ&G Study Shows Line Not Needed.

               

                               Positive attitudes don't run a railroad.

               

                               That was the message Charles Kelefant, a rail transportation specialist with the state Department of Transportation (DOT), delivered to the Fulton County Area Chamber of Commerce and Industry at its board of directors meeting this morning.

               

                               Kelefant told board members he had completed a survey of 25 to 30 users and former users of the FJ&G Railroad and found "a positive attitude for keeping it, but no strong business sense a railroad is needed."

               

                               Inventories are not being built up and this precludes carload size orders, the DOT official explained.  Rail and truck rates are close, but for smaller loads, trucks are more convenient.

               

                               The Delaware Otsego System, which has operated the line over the past few years has indicated it will cease operations May 1 and pursue abandonment  procedures after that.

               

                               The rails and other hardware should stay in place for a year or more, Kelefant estimated.

               

                               The three industries hardest hit may be Omnicology, the Fultonville Agway and Commonwealth Laboratories.  The three combined cannot support the line however.

               

                               "Hides are a different situation," Kelefant added.

               

                               What Karg Brothers Inc., a heavy rail user in the past, does is typical of hide shippers, he observed.  When leather companies went to South America for their supply of hides, the means of transport shifted.

               

                               The hides were brought to the port of Albany by container ship and the container put on trucks to Fulton county. Even when some leather companies went back to the Midwest for hides, shipping by container stayed.

               

                               Shippers like Karg, Risedorph and Wood and Hyde had boosted rail shipping by 1,000 carloads per year during the lines peak periods.  This year only three car have come up from Fonda.

               

                               The state has money available for branch line projects and has had success with them in the past, Kelefant pointed out.  Money for new rails, ties and some operating losses could come from the state.

               

                               In the past the state has provided from $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to the tracks on the grade up from Fonda and another $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to crossings.

               

                               "From a profit point of view, a trucking interest would be a superior investment," board member Clayton Sitterly commented.

               

                               The loss of the railroad represents the loss of a potential tool in attracting new business to Fulton county, Chamber Executive Vice President Mrs. Beverly Harris countered.

               

                               John Warner suggested the loss of the railroad might be turned into the chamber's advantage if it's underplayed and Fulton county's nearness to one of the best highway systems in the country stressed.

               

                               Kelefant cited municipal takeover or another shortline operator moving in as the only means of saving the line.  The hardware will be in place, but more than a positive attitude will be needed.  (Gloversville Leader-Herald)

               

              That amount of "more" was estimated to be $448,000.  So there you have a fair summation of the "why" the railroad died.  The state reached the conclusion they had passed enough taxpayer money, 3 to 3.4 million dollars, to the DO.  But it wasn't DO that caused the line to close; it was a changing transportation environment combined with a withering industrial base capable and willing to provide sustainable revenue to the FJ&G.  DO provided the service.

               

              This is longer than I hoped to write, it will be greatly expanded at the appropriate time, Vol 3.  Does this answer any questions or merely opened the floodgates.

               

              PKL

               

               

               

               



              To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              From: jsesonske@...
              Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:33:48 +0000
              Subject: [FJGRailroad] FJG-NYSW-DO-Some More Thoughts

               

              I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.

              Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections. If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.

              Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.

              Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.

              I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)

              The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.


               


              Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.

               

               


              Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.

            • John
              Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge Paul. Its good to have a book writer in the group. The LH article was pretty interesting and I had never
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge Paul. Its good to have a book writer in the group. The LH article was pretty interesting and I had never seen that before.

                Looking at Fulton County today it seems clear the demise of the FJG was inevitable. The events of the last 20 some odd years-----Coleco's failure, the end of tanning and the supporting chemical companies,the growth of bulk transfer facilities (look at West Albany yard today)and containerization---all show Mr. Kelefant was correct.

                I just hate to see a rail asset lost since it is so hard to ever bring back. I wish the county (as impractical as that may have been)purchased the tracks since they were an asset for the county and there would have always been a chance they could have lead to industrial development. Because the CACV was never taken up there is a nice operation there today. Not that the CACV has freight (not that they ever had much)and I doubt a tourist op could have made it in Gloversville.

                --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > The announcement of the passage of the Motor Carrier act of 1980 did indeed sound the deathknell for the FJ&G. Once the trucking industry deregulated any one who could afford a tractor and pass the driver's test could hook onto a trailer and deliver the goods at whatever price they needed. The ground transportation ballgame changed forever. Whether the shift of Coleco's traffic from rail delivery at the junction to a transload operation from Utica led or followed the decision to close the line, deregulation certainly contributed to its feasibility. Dereg definitely impacted the transportation of raw skins. Where previously skins would arrive at port to be transloaded into boxcars for shipment to Johnstown, it was now practicable to containerize them at initial point of shipment for same box delivery in Johnstown at rates and conditions unavailable in the previously regulated environment.
                >
                >
                >
                > Neither of these business decisions however happened in a vacuum. They are not exclusive events but participate in the downward trend of business activity in the Glove cities starting prior to World War 2. The FJ&G directors and then Walter made astute buisiness decisions in getting out when became obvious. One sign of a successful businessman is when he knows his enterprise is failing or going to fail, he gets out and quickly. You leave the "what ifs" to some one else and move on. The FJ&G management understood their railroad no longer served their bisiness interests. Their decision to move on involved no government subsidies, guarantees or subsidiary companies performing maintenance and other business functions chargeable to the principle operating company, FJ&G. The FJ&G board essentially paid the bills, turned out the light and locked the door behind them at the end of 1973.
                >
                >
                >
                > A need for transportation in the cities was real and accordingly the affected manufacturers joined together to secure state funding and an operator to fulfill meet their requirements. This was an opportunity shared by young and financially able entrepreneurs throughout the country, taking advantage of a changed legal environment as "class ones" rationalized their operations. DO was the right company to undertake the operation of the FJ&G. The methodology was opportunistic and parasitic, as much as necessary for the continued success of the affected businesses. The ownership accrued to the DO, who through a paper company merged the FJ&G with the Montrose Railway. DO thereafter operated the former FJ&G property as their own for as long as it too could see a future.
                >
                >
                >
                > Did DO invest in the FJ&G? Well, I suppose you could say so, corporately. DO took a measured risk in acquiring the property with a loan in the same way any investor capitalizes on his equity to purchase additional properties. One secured by the equity in the other. It was a smart move. After the operation dissolved the debt was retired from the proceeds received from the sale of certain parts of the property to the municipalities (after more than ten years of subsidized appreciation). In the meantime taxpayer money was expended to improve the infrastructure from which observation we shared a belief the FJ&G line was going to continue as "always" serving the Glove cities.
                >
                >
                >
                > The land on the cities line, where the Omnicology plant was constructed, had provided hope for industrial development for decades. I recall in the early 60's the hope a plywood manufacturer would locate in there. What a boon that would have been for the FJ&G, at least for a couple decades. (I am reminded of this when I see the plywood plant on the east end of Whitehall.) Omnicology was akin to the Feldspar plant at Cranberry Creek when the decision was made not to relocate the Northville line; their need for rail may have been perceived as essential but it was not sufficient.
                >
                >
                >
                > I take exception to the premise contained in the volumes titled "When the railroad left town..." Businesses and towns did not die, or decline, because the railroads abandoned them. On the contrary, the businesses and industries which supported the railroad either failed or chose alternative means of transporting their raw materials and products. My analogy is to consider the railroad merely a tool in the means of production and distribution. It is a service industry, an industry in which many of us have been able to provide well for ourselves and families. A railroad produces nothing but labor, every bit of it dedicated to providing and improving its service. But as a tool it must maintain its utility and economy or it will be replaced.
                >
                >
                >
                > You do all you can, give all that you have or can get from the taxpayer and hope to make a profit. Hasn't the latter become the American model? When the money runs out you must move on.
                >
                >
                >
                > Here's the story from a Leader-Herald story in April of 1984:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > DOT Specialist Tells Chamber Board - FJ&G Study Shows Line Not Needed.
                >
                > Positive attitudes don't run a railroad.
                >
                > That was the message Charles Kelefant, a rail transportation specialist with the state Department of Transportation (DOT), delivered to the Fulton County Area Chamber of Commerce and Industry at its board of directors meeting this morning.
                >
                > Kelefant told board members he had completed a survey of 25 to 30 users and former users of the FJ&G Railroad and found "a positive attitude for keeping it, but no strong business sense a railroad is needed."
                >
                > Inventories are not being built up and this precludes carload size orders, the DOT official explained. Rail and truck rates are close, but for smaller loads, trucks are more convenient.
                >
                > The Delaware Otsego System, which has operated the line over the past few years has indicated it will cease operations May 1 and pursue abandonment procedures after that.
                >
                > The rails and other hardware should stay in place for a year or more, Kelefant estimated.
                >
                > The three industries hardest hit may be Omnicology, the Fultonville Agway and Commonwealth Laboratories. The three combined cannot support the line however.
                >
                > "Hides are a different situation," Kelefant added.
                >
                > What Karg Brothers Inc., a heavy rail user in the past, does is typical of hide shippers, he observed. When leather companies went to South America for their supply of hides, the means of transport shifted.
                >
                > The hides were brought to the port of Albany by container ship and the container put on trucks to Fulton county. Even when some leather companies went back to the Midwest for hides, shipping by container stayed.
                >
                > Shippers like Karg, Risedorph and Wood and Hyde had boosted rail shipping by 1,000 carloads per year during the lines peak periods. This year only three car have come up from Fonda.
                >
                > The state has money available for branch line projects and has had success with them in the past, Kelefant pointed out. Money for new rails, ties and some operating losses could come from the state.
                >
                > In the past the state has provided from $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to the tracks on the grade up from Fonda and another $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to crossings.
                >
                > "From a profit point of view, a trucking interest would be a superior investment," board member Clayton Sitterly commented.
                >
                > The loss of the railroad represents the loss of a potential tool in attracting new business to Fulton county, Chamber Executive Vice President Mrs. Beverly Harris countered.
                >
                > John Warner suggested the loss of the railroad might be turned into the chamber's advantage if it's underplayed and Fulton county's nearness to one of the best highway systems in the country stressed.
                >
                > Kelefant cited municipal takeover or another shortline operator moving in as the only means of saving the line. The hardware will be in place, but more than a positive attitude will be needed. (Gloversville Leader-Herald)
                >
                > That amount of "more" was estimated to be $448,000. So there you have a fair summation of the "why" the railroad died. The state reached the conclusion they had passed enough taxpayer money, 3 to 3.4 million dollars, to the DO. But it wasn't DO that caused the line to close; it was a changing transportation environment combined with a withering industrial base capable and willing to provide sustainable revenue to the FJ&G. DO provided the service.
                >
                > This is longer than I hoped to write, it will be greatly expanded at the appropriate time, Vol 3. Does this answer any questions or merely opened the floodgates.
                >
                > PKL
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > From: jsesonske@...
                > Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:33:48 +0000
                > Subject: [FJGRailroad] FJG-NYSW-DO-Some More Thoughts
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.
                >
                > Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections. If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.
                >
                > Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.
                >
                > Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.
                >
                > I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)
                >
                > The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
                > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009
                >
              • Dicarlo, Gino
                John, More of my questions to Walter Rich. I asked him why they never tried the Tourist route. This must be the only place where Walter didn t try without a
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
                • 0 Attachment

                  John,

                   

                  More of my questions to Walter Rich.  I asked him why they never tried the Tourist route.  This must be the only place where Walter didn't try without a study.  He told me they looked deeply into it and just didn't see anything from point A to point B that would attract tourist to a train ride.  There is a tourist industry on Route 30 and north, but they didn't think a 'train ride' would have stopped people from continuing on to Sacandaga Lake, Speculator, Blue Mtn. Lake and on.

                   

                  As for saving the ROW, there were efforts to attract a buyer for the FJG.  I remember one or two parties looking into it and they both felt there wasn't any traffic in the future.  The mayor of Johnstown asked for state money to keep the ROW intact from Fonda to Johnstown, but no money was available.  Fulton County was an economic dead-end in the 1980's.  Slowly, the talk of creating a bike trail grew louder and the idea of saving the ROW got quieter.  The rest is history.  The County did eventually get the money to purchase the ROW south of Johnstown, but that was to build a sewer line.

                   

                  That's all she wrote....

                   

                  Gino

                   

                  From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
                  Sent: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:38 PM
                  To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line

                   

                   

                  Thanks for taking the time to share your knowledge Paul. Its good to have a book writer in the group. The LH article was pretty interesting and I had never seen that before.

                  Looking at Fulton County today it seems clear the demise of the FJG was inevitable. The events of the last 20 some odd years-----Coleco's failure, the end of tanning and the supporting chemical companies,the growth of bulk transfer facilities (look at West Albany yard today)and containerization---all show Mr. Kelefant was correct.

                  I just hate to see a rail asset lost since it is so hard to ever bring back. I wish the county (as impractical as that may have been)purchased the tracks since they were an asset for the county and there would have always been a chance they could have lead to industrial development. Because the CACV was never taken up there is a nice operation there today. Not that the CACV has freight (not that they ever had much)and I doubt a tourist op could have made it in Gloversville.

                  --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > The announcement of the passage of the Motor Carrier act of 1980 did
                  indeed sound the deathknell for the FJ&G. Once the trucking industry deregulated any one who could afford a tractor and pass the driver's test could hook onto a trailer and deliver the goods at whatever price they needed. The ground transportation ballgame changed forever. Whether the shift of Coleco's traffic from rail delivery at the junction to a transload operation from Utica led or followed the decision to close the line, deregulation certainly contributed to its feasibility. Dereg definitely impacted the transportation of raw skins. Where previously skins would arrive at port to be transloaded into boxcars for shipment to Johnstown, it was now practicable to containerize them at initial point of shipment for same box delivery in Johnstown at rates and conditions unavailable in the previously regulated environment.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Neither of these business decisions however happened in a vacuum. They are
                  not exclusive events but participate in the downward trend of business activity in the Glove cities starting prior to World War 2. The FJ&G directors and then Walter made astute buisiness decisions in getting out when became obvious. One sign of a successful businessman is when he knows his enterprise is failing or going to fail, he gets out and quickly. You leave the "what ifs" to some one else and move on. The FJ&G management understood their railroad no longer served their bisiness interests. Their decision to move on involved no government subsidies, guarantees or subsidiary companies performing maintenance and other business functions chargeable to the principle operating company, FJ&G. The FJ&G board essentially paid the bills, turned out the light and locked the door behind them at the end of 1973.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > A need for transportation in the cities was real and accordingly the
                  affected manufacturers joined together to secure state funding and an operator to fulfill meet their requirements. This was an opportunity shared by young and financially able entrepreneurs throughout the country, taking advantage of a changed legal environment as "class ones" rationalized their operations. DO was the right company to undertake the operation of the FJ&G. The methodology was opportunistic and parasitic, as much as necessary for the continued success of the affected businesses. The ownership accrued to the DO, who through a paper company merged the FJ&G with the Montrose Railway. DO thereafter operated the former FJ&G property as their own for as long as it too could see a future.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Did DO invest in the FJ&G? Well, I suppose you could say so,
                  corporately. DO took a measured risk in acquiring the property with a loan in the same way any investor capitalizes on his equity to purchase additional properties. One secured by the equity in the other. It was a smart move. After the operation dissolved the debt was retired from the proceeds received from the sale of certain parts of the property to the municipalities (after more than ten years of subsidized appreciation). In the meantime taxpayer money was expended to improve the infrastructure from which observation we shared a belief the FJ&G line was going to continue as "always" serving the Glove cities.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The land on the cities line, where the Omnicology plant was constructed,
                  had provided hope for industrial development for decades. I recall in the early 60's the hope a plywood manufacturer would locate in there. What a boon that would have been for the FJ&G, at least for a couple decades. (I am reminded of this when I see the plywood plant on the east end of Whitehall.) Omnicology was akin to the Feldspar plant at Cranberry Creek when the decision was made not to relocate the Northville line; their need for rail may have been perceived as essential but it was not sufficient.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I take exception to the premise contained in the volumes titled "When
                  the railroad left town..." Businesses and towns did not die, or decline, because the railroads abandoned them. On the contrary, the businesses and industries which supported the railroad either failed or chose alternative means of transporting their raw materials and products. My analogy is to consider the railroad merely a tool in the means of production and distribution. It is a service industry, an industry in which many of us have been able to provide well for ourselves and families. A railroad produces nothing but labor, every bit of it dedicated to providing and improving its service. But as a tool it must maintain its utility and economy or it will be replaced.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You do all you can, give all that you have or can get from the taxpayer
                  and hope to make a profit. Hasn't the latter become the American model? When the money runs out you must move on.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Here's the story from a Leader-Herald story in April of 1984:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > DOT Specialist Tells Chamber Board - FJ&G Study Shows Line Not Needed.
                  >
                  > Positive attitudes don't run a railroad.
                  >
                  > That was the message Charles Kelefant, a rail transportation specialist
                  with the state Department of Transportation (DOT), delivered to the Fulton County Area Chamber of Commerce and Industry at its board of directors meeting this morning.
                  >
                  > Kelefant told board members he had completed a survey of 25 to 30 users
                  and former users of the FJ&G Railroad and found "a positive attitude for keeping it, but no strong business sense a railroad is needed."
                  >
                  > Inventories are not being built up and this precludes carload size orders,
                  the DOT official explained. Rail and truck rates are close, but for smaller loads, trucks are more convenient.
                  >
                  > The Delaware Otsego System, which has operated the line over the past few
                  years has indicated it will cease operations May 1 and pursue abandonment procedures after that.
                  >
                  > The rails and other hardware should stay in place for a year or more,
                  Kelefant estimated.
                  >
                  > The three industries hardest hit may be Omnicology, the Fultonville Agway
                  and Commonwealth Laboratories. The three combined cannot support the line however.
                  >
                  > "Hides are a different situation," Kelefant added.
                  >
                  > What Karg Brothers Inc., a heavy rail user in the past, does is typical of
                  hide shippers, he observed. When leather companies went to South America for their supply of hides, the means of transport shifted.
                  >
                  > The hides were brought to the port of Albany by container ship and the
                  container put on trucks to Fulton county. Even when some leather companies went back to the Midwest for hides, shipping by container stayed.
                  >
                  > Shippers like Karg, Risedorph and Wood and Hyde had boosted rail shipping
                  by 1,000 carloads per year during the lines peak periods. This year only three car have come up from Fonda.
                  >
                  > The state has money available for branch line projects and has had success
                  with them in the past, Kelefant pointed out. Money for new rails, ties and some operating losses could come from the state.
                  >
                  > In the past the state has provided from $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements
                  to the tracks on the grade up from Fonda and another $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to crossings.
                  >
                  > "From a profit point of view, a trucking interest would be a superior
                  investment," board member Clayton Sitterly commented.
                  >
                  > The loss of the railroad represents the loss of a potential tool in
                  attracting new business to Fulton county, Chamber Executive Vice President Mrs. Beverly Harris countered.
                  >
                  > John Warner suggested the loss of the railroad might be turned into the
                  chamber's advantage if it's underplayed and Fulton county's nearness to one of the best highway systems in the country stressed.
                  >
                  > Kelefant cited municipal takeover or another shortline operator moving in
                  as the only means of saving the line. The hardware will be in place, but more than a positive attitude will be needed. (Gloversville Leader-Herald)
                  >
                  > That amount of "more" was estimated to be $448,000. So there you
                  have a fair summation of the "why" the railroad died. The state reached the conclusion they had passed enough taxpayer money, 3 to 3.4 million dollars, to the DO. But it wasn't DO that caused the line to close; it was a changing transportation environment combined with a withering industrial base capable and willing to provide sustainable revenue to the FJ&G. DO provided the service.
                  >
                  > This is longer than I hoped to write, it will be greatly expanded at the
                  appropriate time, Vol 3. Does this answer any questions or merely opened the floodgates.
                  >
                  > PKL
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: jsesonske@...
                  > Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:33:48 +0000
                  > Subject: [FJGRailroad] FJG-NYSW-DO-Some More Thoughts
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my
                  thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.
                  >
                  > Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections.
                  If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.
                  >
                  > Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got
                  NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.
                  >
                  > Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business
                  decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.
                  >
                  > I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This
                  probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)
                  >
                  > The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In
                  the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________________
                  > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
                  >
                  href="http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009">http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009
                  >

                • Aaron Keller
                  I think, to Walter s credit, that he kept the line down as long as possible in order to see what would happen. Of course, as we know, nothing did. The last
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 29, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I think, to Walter's credit, that he kept the line down as long as possible in order to see what would happen.  Of course, as we know, nothing did.  The last train ran in 1984 and the tracks came out six years later... in the Fall of 1990.  That was a long time for any other group to make up its mind on whether or not it would use the railroad.

                    Perhaps hindsight now being 20/20, the only venture that would have created any eventual fruit would have been to leave the tracks down to roughly milepost F5, the northern end of the Johnstown Industrial Park.

                    Anybody know what scrap steel was going for in 1990?  Could the price for scrap have gone up, hastening the reason for the line's removal?  Likewise, were scrap prices low in the 1980s, lengthening the amount of time the tracks stayed down? 

                    -Aaron

                  • John
                    Paul, I had 2 questions. First, what did Kelefant mean by Fultonville Agway. Did they own Fairbanks Feed at that point? I know Fairbanks was still getting
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 30, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Paul, I had 2 questions.

                      First, what did Kelefant mean by Fultonville Agway. Did they own Fairbanks Feed at that point? I know Fairbanks was still getting loaded hoppers right up to near the end.

                      Second, along the lines of that plywood plant, I have this extremely vague recollection of Gloversville being considered for that huge Miller Brewery that went to Fulton NY (in the early 70's I think). It was something to do with the good water supply in Gloversville that kept them in consideration. Do you recall? Anyways, that place in Fulton produced huge outbound trains for Conrail until it closed in the early 90's at a relatively young age.

                      --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > The announcement of the passage of the Motor Carrier act of 1980 did indeed sound the deathknell for the FJ&G. Once the trucking industry deregulated any one who could afford a tractor and pass the driver's test could hook onto a trailer and deliver the goods at whatever price they needed. The ground transportation ballgame changed forever. Whether the shift of Coleco's traffic from rail delivery at the junction to a transload operation from Utica led or followed the decision to close the line, deregulation certainly contributed to its feasibility. Dereg definitely impacted the transportation of raw skins. Where previously skins would arrive at port to be transloaded into boxcars for shipment to Johnstown, it was now practicable to containerize them at initial point of shipment for same box delivery in Johnstown at rates and conditions unavailable in the previously regulated environment.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Neither of these business decisions however happened in a vacuum. They are not exclusive events but participate in the downward trend of business activity in the Glove cities starting prior to World War 2. The FJ&G directors and then Walter made astute buisiness decisions in getting out when became obvious. One sign of a successful businessman is when he knows his enterprise is failing or going to fail, he gets out and quickly. You leave the "what ifs" to some one else and move on. The FJ&G management understood their railroad no longer served their bisiness interests. Their decision to move on involved no government subsidies, guarantees or subsidiary companies performing maintenance and other business functions chargeable to the principle operating company, FJ&G. The FJ&G board essentially paid the bills, turned out the light and locked the door behind them at the end of 1973.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > A need for transportation in the cities was real and accordingly the affected manufacturers joined together to secure state funding and an operator to fulfill meet their requirements. This was an opportunity shared by young and financially able entrepreneurs throughout the country, taking advantage of a changed legal environment as "class ones" rationalized their operations. DO was the right company to undertake the operation of the FJ&G. The methodology was opportunistic and parasitic, as much as necessary for the continued success of the affected businesses. The ownership accrued to the DO, who through a paper company merged the FJ&G with the Montrose Railway. DO thereafter operated the former FJ&G property as their own for as long as it too could see a future.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Did DO invest in the FJ&G? Well, I suppose you could say so, corporately. DO took a measured risk in acquiring the property with a loan in the same way any investor capitalizes on his equity to purchase additional properties. One secured by the equity in the other. It was a smart move. After the operation dissolved the debt was retired from the proceeds received from the sale of certain parts of the property to the municipalities (after more than ten years of subsidized appreciation). In the meantime taxpayer money was expended to improve the infrastructure from which observation we shared a belief the FJ&G line was going to continue as "always" serving the Glove cities.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > The land on the cities line, where the Omnicology plant was constructed, had provided hope for industrial development for decades. I recall in the early 60's the hope a plywood manufacturer would locate in there. What a boon that would have been for the FJ&G, at least for a couple decades. (I am reminded of this when I see the plywood plant on the east end of Whitehall.) Omnicology was akin to the Feldspar plant at Cranberry Creek when the decision was made not to relocate the Northville line; their need for rail may have been perceived as essential but it was not sufficient.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I take exception to the premise contained in the volumes titled "When the railroad left town..." Businesses and towns did not die, or decline, because the railroads abandoned them. On the contrary, the businesses and industries which supported the railroad either failed or chose alternative means of transporting their raw materials and products. My analogy is to consider the railroad merely a tool in the means of production and distribution. It is a service industry, an industry in which many of us have been able to provide well for ourselves and families. A railroad produces nothing but labor, every bit of it dedicated to providing and improving its service. But as a tool it must maintain its utility and economy or it will be replaced.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You do all you can, give all that you have or can get from the taxpayer and hope to make a profit. Hasn't the latter become the American model? When the money runs out you must move on.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Here's the story from a Leader-Herald story in April of 1984:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > DOT Specialist Tells Chamber Board - FJ&G Study Shows Line Not Needed.
                      >
                      > Positive attitudes don't run a railroad.
                      >
                      > That was the message Charles Kelefant, a rail transportation specialist with the state Department of Transportation (DOT), delivered to the Fulton County Area Chamber of Commerce and Industry at its board of directors meeting this morning.
                      >
                      > Kelefant told board members he had completed a survey of 25 to 30 users and former users of the FJ&G Railroad and found "a positive attitude for keeping it, but no strong business sense a railroad is needed."
                      >
                      > Inventories are not being built up and this precludes carload size orders, the DOT official explained. Rail and truck rates are close, but for smaller loads, trucks are more convenient.
                      >
                      > The Delaware Otsego System, which has operated the line over the past few years has indicated it will cease operations May 1 and pursue abandonment procedures after that.
                      >
                      > The rails and other hardware should stay in place for a year or more, Kelefant estimated.
                      >
                      > The three industries hardest hit may be Omnicology, the Fultonville Agway and Commonwealth Laboratories. The three combined cannot support the line however.
                      >
                      > "Hides are a different situation," Kelefant added.
                      >
                      > What Karg Brothers Inc., a heavy rail user in the past, does is typical of hide shippers, he observed. When leather companies went to South America for their supply of hides, the means of transport shifted.
                      >
                      > The hides were brought to the port of Albany by container ship and the container put on trucks to Fulton county. Even when some leather companies went back to the Midwest for hides, shipping by container stayed.
                      >
                      > Shippers like Karg, Risedorph and Wood and Hyde had boosted rail shipping by 1,000 carloads per year during the lines peak periods. This year only three car have come up from Fonda.
                      >
                      > The state has money available for branch line projects and has had success with them in the past, Kelefant pointed out. Money for new rails, ties and some operating losses could come from the state.
                      >
                      > In the past the state has provided from $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to the tracks on the grade up from Fonda and another $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to crossings.
                      >
                      > "From a profit point of view, a trucking interest would be a superior investment," board member Clayton Sitterly commented.
                      >
                      > The loss of the railroad represents the loss of a potential tool in attracting new business to Fulton county, Chamber Executive Vice President Mrs. Beverly Harris countered.
                      >
                      > John Warner suggested the loss of the railroad might be turned into the chamber's advantage if it's underplayed and Fulton county's nearness to one of the best highway systems in the country stressed.
                      >
                      > Kelefant cited municipal takeover or another shortline operator moving in as the only means of saving the line. The hardware will be in place, but more than a positive attitude will be needed. (Gloversville Leader-Herald)
                      >
                      > That amount of "more" was estimated to be $448,000. So there you have a fair summation of the "why" the railroad died. The state reached the conclusion they had passed enough taxpayer money, 3 to 3.4 million dollars, to the DO. But it wasn't DO that caused the line to close; it was a changing transportation environment combined with a withering industrial base capable and willing to provide sustainable revenue to the FJ&G. DO provided the service.
                      >
                      > This is longer than I hoped to write, it will be greatly expanded at the appropriate time, Vol 3. Does this answer any questions or merely opened the floodgates.
                      >
                      > PKL
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: jsesonske@...
                      > Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:33:48 +0000
                      > Subject: [FJGRailroad] FJG-NYSW-DO-Some More Thoughts
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.
                      >
                      > Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections. If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.
                      >
                      > Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.
                      >
                      > Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.
                      >
                      > I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)
                      >
                      > The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > _________________________________________________________________
                      > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
                      > http://www.microsoft.com/Windows/windows-7/default.aspx?ocid=PID24727::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WWL_WIN_evergreen2:102009
                      >
                    • Gino's Railpage
                      After the West Shore branch went out in 1981, didn t a car for Fultonville Agway get dropped off on FJ&G trackage in Fonda? I thought I remembered something
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 30, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment

                        After the West Shore branch went out in 1981, didn't a car for Fultonville Agway get dropped off on FJ&G trackage in Fonda?  I thought I remembered something like that.

                         

                        Gino



                        On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 1:58 PM, John <jsesonske@...> wrote:
                         

                        Paul, I had 2 questions.

                        First, what did Kelefant mean by Fultonville Agway. Did they own Fairbanks Feed at that point? I know Fairbanks was still getting loaded hoppers right up to near the end.

                        Second, along the lines of that plywood plant, I have this extremely vague recollection of Gloversville being considered for that huge Miller Brewery that went to Fulton NY (in the early 70's I think). It was something to do with the good water supply in Gloversville that kept them in consideration. Do you recall? Anyways, that place in Fulton produced huge outbound trains for Conrail until it closed in the early 90's at a relatively young age.



                        --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > The announcement of the passage of the Motor Carrier act of 1980 did indeed sound the deathknell for the FJ&G. Once the trucking industry deregulated any one who could afford a tractor and pass the driver's test could hook onto a trailer and deliver the goods at whatever price they needed. The ground transportation ballgame changed forever. Whether the shift of Coleco's traffic from rail delivery at the junction to a transload operation from Utica led or followed the decision to close the line, deregulation certainly contributed to its feasibility. Dereg definitely impacted the transportation of raw skins. Where previously skins would arrive at port to be transloaded into boxcars for shipment to Johnstown, it was now practicable to containerize them at initial point of shipment for same box delivery in Johnstown at rates and conditions unavailable in the previously regulated environment.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Neither of these business decisions however happened in a vacuum. They are not exclusive events but participate in the downward trend of business activity in the Glove cities starting prior to World War 2. The FJ&G directors and then Walter made astute buisiness decisions in getting out when became obvious. One sign of a successful businessman is when he knows his enterprise is failing or going to fail, he gets out and quickly. You leave the "what ifs" to some one else and move on. The FJ&G management understood their railroad no longer served their bisiness interests. Their decision to move on involved no government subsidies, guarantees or subsidiary companies performing maintenance and other business functions chargeable to the principle operating company, FJ&G. The FJ&G board essentially paid the bills, turned out the light and locked the door behind them at the end of 1973.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > A need for transportation in the cities was real and accordingly the affected manufacturers joined together to secure state funding and an operator to fulfill meet their requirements. This was an opportunity shared by young and financially able entrepreneurs throughout the country, taking advantage of a changed legal environment as "class ones" rationalized their operations. DO was the right company to undertake the operation of the FJ&G. The methodology was opportunistic and parasitic, as much as necessary for the continued success of the affected businesses. The ownership accrued to the DO, who through a paper company merged the FJ&G with the Montrose Railway. DO thereafter operated the former FJ&G property as their own for as long as it too could see a future.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Did DO invest in the FJ&G? Well, I suppose you could say so, corporately. DO took a measured risk in acquiring the property with a loan in the same way any investor capitalizes on his equity to purchase additional properties. One secured by the equity in the other. It was a smart move. After the operation dissolved the debt was retired from the proceeds received from the sale of certain parts of the property to the municipalities (after more than ten years of subsidized appreciation). In the meantime taxpayer money was expended to improve the infrastructure from which observation we shared a belief the FJ&G line was going to continue as "always" serving the Glove cities.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > The land on the cities line, where the Omnicology plant was constructed, had provided hope for industrial development for decades. I recall in the early 60's the hope a plywood manufacturer would locate in there. What a boon that would have been for the FJ&G, at least for a couple decades. (I am reminded of this when I see the plywood plant on the east end of Whitehall.) Omnicology was akin to the Feldspar plant at Cranberry Creek when the decision was made not to relocate the Northville line; their need for rail may have been perceived as essential but it was not sufficient.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I take exception to the premise contained in the volumes titled "When the railroad left town..." Businesses and towns did not die, or decline, because the railroads abandoned them. On the contrary, the businesses and industries which supported the railroad either failed or chose alternative means of transporting their raw materials and products. My analogy is to consider the railroad merely a tool in the means of production and distribution. It is a service industry, an industry in which many of us have been able to provide well for ourselves and families. A railroad produces nothing but labor, every bit of it dedicated to providing and improving its service. But as a tool it must maintain its utility and economy or it will be replaced.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > You do all you can, give all that you have or can get from the taxpayer and hope to make a profit. Hasn't the latter become the American model? When the money runs out you must move on.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Here's the story from a Leader-Herald story in April of 1984:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > DOT Specialist Tells Chamber Board - FJ&G Study Shows Line Not Needed.
                        >
                        > Positive attitudes don't run a railroad.
                        >
                        > That was the message Charles Kelefant, a rail transportation specialist with the state Department of Transportation (DOT), delivered to the Fulton County Area Chamber of Commerce and Industry at its board of directors meeting this morning.
                        >
                        > Kelefant told board members he had completed a survey of 25 to 30 users and former users of the FJ&G Railroad and found "a positive attitude for keeping it, but no strong business sense a railroad is needed."
                        >
                        > Inventories are not being built up and this precludes carload size orders, the DOT official explained. Rail and truck rates are close, but for smaller loads, trucks are more convenient.
                        >
                        > The Delaware Otsego System, which has operated the line over the past few years has indicated it will cease operations May 1 and pursue abandonment procedures after that.
                        >
                        > The rails and other hardware should stay in place for a year or more, Kelefant estimated.
                        >
                        > The three industries hardest hit may be Omnicology, the Fultonville Agway and Commonwealth Laboratories. The three combined cannot support the line however.
                        >
                        > "Hides are a different situation," Kelefant added.
                        >
                        > What Karg Brothers Inc., a heavy rail user in the past, does is typical of hide shippers, he observed. When leather companies went to South America for their supply of hides, the means of transport shifted.
                        >
                        > The hides were brought to the port of Albany by container ship and the container put on trucks to Fulton county. Even when some leather companies went back to the Midwest for hides, shipping by container stayed.
                        >
                        > Shippers like Karg, Risedorph and Wood and Hyde had boosted rail shipping by 1,000 carloads per year during the lines peak periods. This year only three car have come up from Fonda.
                        >
                        > The state has money available for branch line projects and has had success with them in the past, Kelefant pointed out. Money for new rails, ties and some operating losses could come from the state.
                        >
                        > In the past the state has provided from $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to the tracks on the grade up from Fonda and another $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to crossings.
                        >
                        > "From a profit point of view, a trucking interest would be a superior investment," board member Clayton Sitterly commented.
                        >
                        > The loss of the railroad represents the loss of a potential tool in attracting new business to Fulton county, Chamber Executive Vice President Mrs. Beverly Harris countered.
                        >
                        > John Warner suggested the loss of the railroad might be turned into the chamber's advantage if it's underplayed and Fulton county's nearness to one of the best highway systems in the country stressed.
                        >
                        > Kelefant cited municipal takeover or another shortline operator moving in as the only means of saving the line. The hardware will be in place, but more than a positive attitude will be needed. (Gloversville Leader-Herald)
                        >
                        > That amount of "more" was estimated to be $448,000. So there you have a fair summation of the "why" the railroad died. The state reached the conclusion they had passed enough taxpayer money, 3 to 3.4 million dollars, to the DO. But it wasn't DO that caused the line to close; it was a changing transportation environment combined with a withering industrial base capable and willing to provide sustainable revenue to the FJ&G. DO provided the service.
                        >
                        > This is longer than I hoped to write, it will be greatly expanded at the appropriate time, Vol 3. Does this answer any questions or merely opened the floodgates.
                        >
                        > PKL
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: jsesonske@...

                        > Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:33:48 +0000
                        > Subject: [FJGRailroad] FJG-NYSW-DO-Some More Thoughts
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.
                        >
                        > Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections. If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.
                        >
                        > Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.
                        >
                        > Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.
                        >
                        > I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)
                        >
                        > The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________________
                        > Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.




                        --
                        http://fjgrr.org
                        http://ginosrailpage.com
                        http://ginostrolleypage.com
                        http://ginosmusicservice.com
                      • Gino's Railpage
                        I remember that article coming out and how much it made me mad that they said the RR wasn t needed. Barbara Harris, mentioned in the article was the wife of
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 30, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I remember that article coming out and how much it made me mad that they
                          said the RR wasn't needed.  Barbara Harris, mentioned in the article was the wife
                          of Glenn Harris, a state Assemblyman at the time.  I think the two of them started
                          avoiding the supermarket I worked at, because they knew I'd hound them to save
                          the FJ&G.  It started with answers like, "we're trying to save her," to "there may
                          not be money to do it."
                           
                          Aaron mentioned Ron Crowd from the Battenkill and interest in the FJ&G.  Dave Nestle
                          told me Ron was shutout of looking at the line for estimates, but Ron told me a
                          different story.  Ron said he did look into it and it looked like 3 cars a month which
                          wasn't worth it to anyone.
                           
                          The same thing happened with the West Shore.  He looked into running the line from
                          Rotterdam Jct. to Fort Plain and there was even some money to help him.  Heck, the
                          state had spent money in 1979 to replace ties.  I was told once again that Ron was
                          shut out of those negotiations, but he told me no and that he was promised 1 car-load
                          a month by Beech Nut.  That was it.
                           
                          He went to the D&H's Washington Branch and the rest is history.  I remember an
                          article in the Leader about a Mohawk and Hudson Transportation Co. looking into
                          the FJ&G, but that was Ron Crowd's new company...
                           
                          Gino

                          On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Paul Larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                           

                          The announcement of the passage of the Motor Carrier act of 1980 did indeed sound the deathknell for the FJ&G.  Once the trucking industry deregulated any one who could afford a tractor and pass the driver's test could hook onto a trailer and deliver the goods at whatever price they needed.  The ground transportation ballgame changed forever.  Whether the shift of Coleco's traffic from rail delivery at the junction to a transload operation from Utica led or followed the decision to close the line, deregulation certainly contributed to its feasibility.  Dereg definitely impacted the transportation of raw skins.  Where previously skins would arrive at port to be transloaded into boxcars for shipment to Johnstown, it was now practicable to containerize them at initial point of shipment for same box delivery in Johnstown at rates and conditions unavailable in the previously regulated environment. 
                           
                          Neither of these business decisions however happened in a vacuum.  They are not exclusive events but participate in the downward trend of business activity in the Glove cities starting prior to World War 2.  The FJ&G directors and then Walter made astute buisiness decisions in getting out when became obvious.  One sign of a successful businessman is when he knows his enterprise is failing or going to fail, he gets out and quickly.  You leave the "what ifs" to some one else and move on.  The FJ&G management understood their railroad no longer served their bisiness interests.  Their decision to move on involved no government subsidies, guarantees or subsidiary companies performing maintenance and other business functions chargeable to the principle operating company, FJ&G.  The FJ&G board essentially paid the bills, turned out the light and locked the door behind them at the end of 1973.
                           
                          A need for transportation in the cities was real and accordingly the affected manufacturers joined together to secure state funding and an operator to fulfill meet their requirements.  This was an opportunity shared by young and financially able entrepreneurs throughout the country, taking advantage of a changed legal environment as "class ones" rationalized their operations.  DO was the right company to undertake the operation of the FJ&G.  The methodology was opportunistic and parasitic, as much as necessary for the continued success of the affected businesses.  The ownership accrued to the DO, who through a paper company merged the FJ&G with the Montrose Railway.  DO thereafter operated the former FJ&G property as their own for as long as it too could see a future. 
                           
                          Did DO invest in the FJ&G?  Well, I suppose you could say so, corporately.  DO took a measured risk in acquiring the property with a loan in the same way any investor capitalizes on his equity to purchase additional properties.  One secured by the equity in the other.  It was a smart move.  After the operation dissolved the debt was retired from the proceeds received from the sale of certain parts of the property to the municipalities (after more than ten years of subsidized appreciation).  In the meantime taxpayer money was expended to improve the infrastructure from which observation we shared a belief the FJ&G line was going to continue as "always" serving the Glove cities.
                           
                          The land on the cities line, where the Omnicology plant was constructed, had provided hope for industrial development for decades.  I recall in the early 60's the hope a plywood manufacturer would locate in there.  What a boon that would have been for the FJ&G, at least for a couple decades.  (I am reminded of this when I see the plywood plant on the east end of Whitehall.)  Omnicology was akin to the Feldspar plant at Cranberry Creek when the decision was made not to relocate the Northville line; their need for rail may have been perceived as essential but it was not sufficient.
                           
                          I take exception to the premise contained in the volumes titled "When the railroad left town..."  Businesses and towns did not die, or decline, because the railroads abandoned them.  On the contrary, the businesses and industries which supported the railroad either failed or chose alternative means of transporting their raw materials and products.  My analogy is to consider the railroad merely a tool in the means of production and distribution.  It is a service industry, an industry in which many of us have been able to provide well for ourselves and families.  A railroad produces nothing but labor, every bit of it dedicated to providing and improving its service.  But as a tool it must maintain its utility and economy or it will be replaced.  
                           
                          You do all you can, give all that you have or can get from the taxpayer and hope to make a profit.  Hasn't the latter become the American model?  When the money runs out you must move on. 
                           
                          Here's the story from a Leader-Herald story in April of 1984:
                           
                           

                          DOT Specialist Tells Chamber Board - FJ&G Study Shows Line Not Needed.

                           

                                           Positive attitudes don't run a railroad.

                           

                                           That was the message Charles Kelefant, a rail transportation specialist with the state Department of Transportation (DOT), delivered to the Fulton County Area Chamber of Commerce and Industry at its board of directors meeting this morning.

                           

                                           Kelefant told board members he had completed a survey of 25 to 30 users and former users of the FJ&G Railroad and found "a positive attitude for keeping it, but no strong business sense a railroad is needed."

                           

                                           Inventories are not being built up and this precludes carload size orders, the DOT official explained.  Rail and truck rates are close, but for smaller loads, trucks are more convenient.

                           

                                           The Delaware Otsego System, which has operated the line over the past few years has indicated it will cease operations May 1 and pursue abandonment  procedures after that.

                           

                                           The rails and other hardware should stay in place for a year or more, Kelefant estimated.

                           

                                           The three industries hardest hit may be Omnicology, the Fultonville Agway and Commonwealth Laboratories.  The three combined cannot support the line however.

                           

                                           "Hides are a different situation," Kelefant added.

                           

                                           What Karg Brothers Inc., a heavy rail user in the past, does is typical of hide shippers, he observed.  When leather companies went to South America for their supply of hides, the means of transport shifted.

                           

                                           The hides were brought to the port of Albany by container ship and the container put on trucks to Fulton county. Even when some leather companies went back to the Midwest for hides, shipping by container stayed.

                           

                                           Shippers like Karg, Risedorph and Wood and Hyde had boosted rail shipping by 1,000 carloads per year during the lines peak periods.  This year only three car have come up from Fonda.

                           

                                           The state has money available for branch line projects and has had success with them in the past, Kelefant pointed out.  Money for new rails, ties and some operating losses could come from the state.

                           

                                           In the past the state has provided from $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to the tracks on the grade up from Fonda and another $1.5 to $1.7 million for improvements to crossings.

                           

                                           "From a profit point of view, a trucking interest would be a superior investment," board member Clayton Sitterly commented.

                           

                                           The loss of the railroad represents the loss of a potential tool in attracting new business to Fulton county, Chamber Executive Vice President Mrs. Beverly Harris countered.

                           

                                           John Warner suggested the loss of the railroad might be turned into the chamber's advantage if it's underplayed and Fulton county's nearness to one of the best highway systems in the country stressed.

                           

                                           Kelefant cited municipal takeover or another shortline operator moving in as the only means of saving the line.  The hardware will be in place, but more than a positive attitude will be needed.  (Gloversville Leader-Herald)

                           

                          That amount of "more" was estimated to be $448,000.  So there you have a fair summation of the "why" the railroad died.  The state reached the conclusion they had passed enough taxpayer money, 3 to 3.4 million dollars, to the DO.  But it wasn't DO that caused the line to close; it was a changing transportation environment combined with a withering industrial base capable and willing to provide sustainable revenue to the FJ&G.  DO provided the service.

                           

                          This is longer than I hoped to write, it will be greatly expanded at the appropriate time, Vol 3.  Does this answer any questions or merely opened the floodgates.

                           

                          PKL

                           

                           

                           

                           



                          To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          From: jsesonske@...
                          Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 19:33:48 +0000
                          Subject: [FJGRailroad] FJG-NYSW-DO-Some More Thoughts

                           

                          I clearly have the minority opinion here and I am reconsidering my thoughts after everyones comments but I offer a few more thoughts.

                          Walt was obviously a savy business person with good political connections. If he had decided to cut the FJG back to Coleco Patch Road, pound on the door of every industry in Fulton County and tough it out for a few more years who knows what might have happened. Maybe if rail was in place the Harrison Street or Johnstown industrial parks might have attracted a large rail shipper---probably not but maybe. If someone said stacks over Sparta Mountain in the 1970's (they actually would have said containers)they would have been seriously laughed at. I think some of the track was even missing back then. So you never know what could have been. The Battenkill could have gotten the PCB sludge business---imagine that one.

                          Second, I never said Walt stopped investing in the FJG the minute he got NYSW. It took a little time for the NYSW thing to really get going. I do not have the dates but the FJG did the major rebuild with ties, rail and ballast all at once and very little was done after that (not that it needed to be). I also thought that the rebuild was Fed or State money. I assume the Harrison St Industrial Park wye was not done with DO money or was it? This was the only major investment I remember being done after the main rebuild.

                          Companies make choices. I am just speculating that Walt made a business decision to focus on NYSW at the expense of the original DO family of lines. I might be right or wrong but it is a possibility. And if he did that was obviously the correct choice based on how the stock did. I hear your comments on that interview Gino but Walt might have been just pushing the company line.

                          I agree the Motor Carrier Act of 1980 probably killed the FJG. This probably accounts for Hussmann, newsprint and city salt going to trucks. The FJG was probably just one too many railroads in the rate split to make it work since Conrail continued to haul Salt to Schenectady and Utica even after truck dereg (all this salt either came from Lansing or Retsof)(CSX still hauls salt from Hampton Corners to Troy today)

                          The "boom" years of 80 and 81 were really just spot business. In the spring of 1980 the FJG started storing around 150 St Lawrence cars after incentive per diem ended. This was not long term business. And the Kargs business was just a quick burst. Started in the spring of 1981 and was over by end of October 1981. Does anyone on the list know why Kargs had that burst of business bringing over 200 cars in so quick. There is no way that was business stolen from trucks. They had the line north of Coleco completely plugged and I remember when they had to go get lumber in Broadalbin it took them 2 days to pull the cars and put them back. It was great to watch but probably no fun for the crew.




                          Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.




                          --
                          http://fjgrr.org
                          http://ginosrailpage.com
                          http://ginostrolleypage.com
                          http://ginosmusicservice.com
                        • John
                          State or Fed money actually completely rebuilt the West Shore to Fort Plain. They did ties rail ballast and everything. The line looked great and then like a
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 30, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            State or Fed money actually completely rebuilt the West Shore to Fort Plain. They did ties rail ballast and everything. The line looked great and then like a year or so later Conrail didn't want to run it anymore and the tracks were torn up. I think that is when Conrail did their downsize and may have been the same time the DO got the Syracuse and Utica lines. It really amazed me how that money was wasted on the West Shore. I remember the articles on Ron's Mohawk and Hudson looking at the West Shore. I also remember that oddly the B&M was interested in the West Shore but Conrail refused them the short trackage rights at Rotterdam Jct--at least that is what was in the newspaper articles. Beech Nut was looking at converting to coal at the time and stated loss of the line would prohibit that. Beech Nut ended up trucking to DUI in South Schenectady and loading boxcars there and they were still doing it in the late 90's as I remember being at DUI and seeing boxcars getting loaded. Wouldn't Ron have gotten the stone business with the line or was Conrail keeping that no matter what?

                            --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Gino's Railpage" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I remember that article coming out and how much it made me mad that they
                            > said the RR wasn't needed. Barbara Harris, mentioned in the article was the
                            > wife
                            > of Glenn Harris, a state Assemblyman at the time. I think the two of them
                            > started
                            > avoiding the supermarket I worked at, because they knew I'd hound them to
                            > save
                            > the FJ&G. It started with answers like, "we're trying to save her," to
                            > "there may
                            > not be money to do it."
                            >
                            > Aaron mentioned Ron Crowd from the Battenkill and interest in the FJ&G.
                            > Dave Nestle
                            > told me Ron was shutout of looking at the line for estimates, but Ron told
                            > me a
                            > different story. Ron said he did look into it and it looked like 3 cars a
                            > month which
                            > wasn't worth it to anyone.
                            >
                            > The same thing happened with the West Shore. He looked into running the
                            > line from
                            > Rotterdam Jct. to Fort Plain and there was even some money to help him.
                            > Heck, the
                            > state had spent money in 1979 to replace ties. I was told once again that
                            > Ron was
                            > shut out of those negotiations, but he told me no and that he was promised 1
                            > car-load
                            > a month by Beech Nut. That was it.
                            >
                            > He went to the D&H's Washington Branch and the rest is history. I remember
                            > an
                            > article in the Leader about a Mohawk and Hudson Transportation Co. looking
                            > into
                            > the FJ&G, but that was Ron Crowd's new company...
                            >
                            > Gino
                            >
                            >
                          • Gino's Railpage
                            Conrail used to get it s stone from Cushing, so I figure that they would have wanted that end intact. Where the M&H would have set up shop I don t know. I
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 31, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Conrail used to get it's stone from Cushing, so I figure that they would have wanted
                              that end intact.  Where the M&H would have set up shop I don't know.
                               
                              I asked Ron Crowd about interchanging the West Shore with the B&M at RJ, but he
                              said it wasn't a problem at all.  One car a month from Beechnut was the biggest
                              problem.  He also said that Beechnut would get a good rate from trucking if it still
                              had the rail option to switch to.  After it was gone, they didn't have the bargaining
                              chip.
                               
                              I've got numbers somewhere of the Government looking at that line before the creation
                              of Conrail.  It was recommended by the DOT that the branch from Amsterdam to
                              Fort Plain be abandoned and be included in Conrail due to the small amount of cars
                              moved between the points.  It was Beechnut that begged to keep the line intact with
                              a promise of more cars.
                               
                              Gino

                              On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 10:13 PM, John <jsesonske@...> wrote:
                               

                              State or Fed money actually completely rebuilt the West Shore to Fort Plain. They did ties rail ballast and everything. The line looked great and then like a year or so later Conrail didn't want to run it anymore and the tracks were torn up. I think that is when Conrail did their downsize and may have been the same time the DO got the Syracuse and Utica lines. It really amazed me how that money was wasted on the West Shore. I remember the articles on Ron's Mohawk and Hudson looking at the West Shore. I also remember that oddly the B&M was interested in the West Shore but Conrail refused them the short trackage rights at Rotterdam Jct--at least that is what was in the newspaper articles. Beech Nut was looking at converting to coal at the time and stated loss of the line would prohibit that. Beech Nut ended up trucking to DUI in South Schenectady and loading boxcars there and they were still doing it in the late 90's as I remember being at DUI and seeing boxcars getting loaded. Wouldn't Ron have gotten the stone business with the line or was Conrail keeping that no matter what?

                              --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Gino's Railpage" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I remember that article coming out and how much it made me mad that they
                              > said the RR wasn't needed. Barbara Harris, mentioned in the article was the
                              > wife
                              > of Glenn Harris, a state Assemblyman at the time. I think the two of them
                              > started
                              > avoiding the supermarket I worked at, because they knew I'd hound them to
                              > save
                              > the FJ&G. It started with answers like, "we're trying to save her," to
                              > "there may
                              > not be money to do it."
                              >
                              > Aaron mentioned Ron Crowd from the Battenkill and interest in the FJ&G.
                              > Dave Nestle
                              > told me Ron was shutout of looking at the line for estimates, but Ron told
                              > me a
                              > different story. Ron said he did look into it and it looked like 3 cars a
                              > month which
                              > wasn't worth it to anyone.
                              >
                              > The same thing happened with the West Shore. He looked into running the
                              > line from
                              > Rotterdam Jct. to Fort Plain and there was even some money to help him.
                              > Heck, the
                              > state had spent money in 1979 to replace ties. I was told once again that
                              > Ron was
                              > shut out of those negotiations, but he told me no and that he was promised 1
                              > car-load
                              > a month by Beech Nut. That was it.
                              >
                              > He went to the D&H's Washington Branch and the rest is history. I remember
                              > an
                              > article in the Leader about a Mohawk and Hudson Transportation Co. looking
                              > into
                              > the FJ&G, but that was Ron Crowd's new company...
                              >
                              > Gino
                              >
                              >




                              --
                              http://fjgrr.org
                              http://ginosrailpage.com
                              http://ginostrolleypage.com
                              http://ginosmusicservice.com
                            • Aaron Keller
                              Yeah, and it was amazing that about five years ago, Schumer came up with a scheme to build a railroad bridge from Palatine Bridge to Ft. Plain to serve
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 31, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Yeah, and it was amazing that about five years ago, Schumer came up with a scheme to build a railroad bridge from Palatine Bridge to Ft. Plain to serve Beech-Nut.  Federal dollars, of course.  And obviously the bridge never materialized.

                                -Aaron


                                From: Gino's Railpage <fjgrailroad@...>
                                To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 1:03:44 PM
                                Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line-West Shore



                                Conrail used to get it's stone from Cushing, so I figure that they would have wanted
                                that end intact.  Where the M&H would have set up shop I don't know.
                                 
                                I asked Ron Crowd about interchanging the West Shore with the B&M at RJ, but he
                                said it wasn't a problem at all.  One car a month from Beechnut was the biggest
                                problem.  He also said that Beechnut would get a good rate from trucking if it still
                                had the rail option to switch to.  After it was gone, they didn't have the bargaining
                                chip.
                                 
                                I've got numbers somewhere of the Government looking at that line before the creation
                                of Conrail.  It was recommended by the DOT that the branch from Amsterdam to
                                Fort Plain be abandoned and be included in Conrail due to the small amount of cars
                                moved between the points.  It was Beechnut that begged to keep the line intact with
                                a promise of more cars.
                                 
                                Gino

                                On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 10:13 PM, John <jsesonske@...> wrote:
                                 

                                State or Fed money actually completely rebuilt the West Shore to Fort Plain. They did ties rail ballast and everything. The line looked great and then like a year or so later Conrail didn't want to run it anymore and the tracks were torn up. I think that is when Conrail did their downsize and may have been the same time the DO got the Syracuse and Utica lines. It really amazed me how that money was wasted on the West Shore. I remember the articles on Ron's Mohawk and Hudson looking at the West Shore. I also remember that oddly the B&M was interested in the West Shore but Conrail refused them the short trackage rights at Rotterdam Jct--at least that is what was in the newspaper articles. Beech Nut was looking at converting to coal at the time and stated loss of the line would prohibit that. Beech Nut ended up trucking to DUI in South Schenectady and loading boxcars there and they were still doing it in the late 90's as I remember being at DUI and seeing boxcars getting loaded. Wouldn't Ron have gotten the stone business with the line or was Conrail keeping that no matter what?

                                --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Gino's Railpage" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I remember that article coming out and how much it made me mad that they
                                > said the RR wasn't needed. Barbara Harris, mentioned in the article was the
                                > wife
                                > of Glenn Harris, a state Assemblyman at the time. I think the two of them
                                > started
                                > avoiding the supermarket I worked at, because they knew I'd hound them to
                                > save
                                > the FJ&G. It started with answers like, "we're trying to save her," to
                                > "there may
                                > not be money to do it."
                                >
                                > Aaron mentioned Ron Crowd from the Battenkill and interest in the FJ&G.
                                > Dave Nestle
                                > told me Ron was shutout of looking at the line for estimates, but Ron told
                                > me a
                                > different story. Ron said he did look into it and it looked like 3 cars a
                                > month which
                                > wasn't worth it to anyone.
                                >
                                > The same thing happened with the West Shore. He looked into running the
                                > line from
                                > Rotterdam Jct. to Fort Plain and there was even some money to help him.
                                > Heck, the
                                > state had spent money in 1979 to replace ties. I was told once again that
                                > Ron was
                                > shut out of those negotiations, but he told me no and that he was promised 1
                                > car-load
                                > a month by Beech Nut. That was it.
                                >
                                > He went to the D&H's Washington Branch and the rest is history. I remember
                                > an
                                > article in the Leader about a Mohawk and Hudson Transportation Co. looking
                                > into
                                > the FJ&G, but that was Ron Crowd's new company...
                                >
                                > Gino
                                >
                                >




                                --
                                http://fjgrr.org
                                http://ginosrailpage.com
                                http://ginostrolleypage.com
                                http://ginosmusicservice.com



                              • Dicarlo, Gino
                                I loved that one! Before the bridge idea, Chucky baby suggested reconnecting the line to Cushing since it was still there. The bridge was a cheaper option.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 31, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  I loved that one!  Before the bridge idea, Chucky baby suggested reconnecting the line to Cushing

                                  since it was still there.  The bridge was a cheaper option.  All for naught now, Beechnut is moving!

                                   

                                  Gino

                                   

                                  From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Keller
                                  Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 1:26 PM
                                  To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line-West Shore

                                   

                                   

                                  Yeah, and it was amazing that about five years ago, Schumer came up with a scheme to build a railroad bridge from Palatine Bridge to Ft. Plain to serve Beech-Nut.  Federal dollars, of course.  And obviously the bridge never materialized.

                                  -Aaron

                                   


                                  From: Gino's Railpage <fjgrailroad@...>
                                  To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 1:03:44 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line-West Shore


                                  Conrail used to get it's stone from Cushing, so I figure that they would have wanted

                                  that end intact.  Where the M&H would have set up shop I don't know.

                                   

                                  I asked Ron Crowd about interchanging the West Shore with the B&M at RJ, but he

                                  said it wasn't a problem at all.  One car a month from Beechnut was the biggest

                                  problem.  He also said that Beechnut would get a good rate from trucking if it still

                                  had the rail option to switch to.  After it was gone, they didn't have the bargaining

                                  chip.

                                   

                                  I've got numbers somewhere of the Government looking at that line before the creation

                                  of Conrail.  It was recommended by the DOT that the branch from Amsterdam to

                                  Fort Plain be abandoned and be included in Conrail due to the small amount of cars

                                  moved between the points.  It was Beechnut that begged to keep the line intact with

                                  a promise of more cars.

                                   

                                  Gino

                                  On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 10:13 PM, John <jsesonske@...> wrote:

                                   

                                  State or Fed money actually completely rebuilt the West Shore to Fort Plain. They did ties rail ballast and everything. The line looked great and then like a year or so later Conrail didn't want to run it anymore and the tracks were torn up. I think that is when Conrail did their downsize and may have been the same time the DO got the Syracuse and Utica lines. It really amazed me how that money was wasted on the West Shore. I remember the articles on Ron's Mohawk and Hudson looking at the West Shore. I also remember that oddly the B&M was interested in the West Shore but Conrail refused them the short trackage rights at Rotterdam Jct--at least that is what was in the newspaper articles. Beech Nut was looking at converting to coal at the time and stated loss of the line would prohibit that. Beech Nut ended up trucking to DUI in South Schenectady and loading boxcars there and they were still doing it in the late 90's as I remember being at DUI and seeing boxcars getting loaded. Wouldn't Ron have gotten the stone business with the line or was Conrail keeping that no matter what?

                                  --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Gino's Railpage" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > I remember that article coming out and how much it made me mad that they
                                  > said the RR wasn't needed. Barbara Harris, mentioned in the article was
                                  the
                                  > wife
                                  > of Glenn Harris, a state Assemblyman at the time. I think the two of them
                                  > started
                                  > avoiding the supermarket I worked at, because they knew I'd hound them to
                                  > save
                                  > the FJ&G. It started with answers like, "we're trying to save
                                  her," to
                                  > "there may
                                  > not be money to do it."
                                  >
                                  > Aaron mentioned Ron Crowd from the Battenkill and interest in the
                                  FJ&G.
                                  > Dave Nestle
                                  > told me Ron was shutout of looking at the line for estimates, but Ron told
                                  > me a
                                  > different story. Ron said he did look into it and it looked like 3 cars a
                                  > month which
                                  > wasn't worth it to anyone.
                                  >
                                  > The same thing happened with the West Shore. He looked into running the
                                  > line from
                                  > Rotterdam Jct. to Fort Plain and there was even some money to help him.
                                  > Heck, the
                                  > state had spent money in 1979 to replace ties. I was told once again that
                                  > Ron was
                                  > shut out of those negotiations, but he told me no and that he was promised
                                  1
                                  > car-load
                                  > a month by Beech Nut. That was it.
                                  >
                                  > He went to the D&H's Washington Branch and the rest is history. I
                                  remember
                                  > an
                                  > article in the Leader about a Mohawk and Hudson Transportation Co. looking
                                  > into
                                  > the FJ&G, but that was Ron Crowd's new company...
                                  >
                                  > Gino
                                  >
                                  >




                                  --
                                  http://fjgrr.org
                                  http://ginosrailpage.com
                                  http://ginostrolleypage.com
                                  http://ginosmusicservice.com

                                   

                                • Gordon Davis
                                  Chucky never saw a microphone he didn t like. Gordon ... From: Aaron Keller To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 1:25 PM Subject:
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 31, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Chucky never saw a microphone he didn't like.
                                    Gordon
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 1:25 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line-West Shore

                                     

                                    Yeah, and it was amazing that about five years ago, Schumer came up with a scheme to build a railroad bridge from Palatine Bridge to Ft. Plain to serve Beech-Nut.  Federal dollars, of course.  And obviously the bridge never materialized.

                                    -Aaron


                                    From: Gino's Railpage <fjgrailroad@ gmail.com>
                                    To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                    Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 1:03:44 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line-West Shore



                                    Conrail used to get it's stone from Cushing, so I figure that they would have wanted
                                    that end intact.  Where the M&H would have set up shop I don't know.
                                     
                                    I asked Ron Crowd about interchanging the West Shore with the B&M at RJ, but he
                                    said it wasn't a problem at all.  One car a month from Beechnut was the biggest
                                    problem.  He also said that Beechnut would get a good rate from trucking if it still
                                    had the rail option to switch to.  After it was gone, they didn't have the bargaining
                                    chip.
                                     
                                    I've got numbers somewhere of the Government looking at that line before the creation
                                    of Conrail.  It was recommended by the DOT that the branch from Amsterdam to
                                    Fort Plain be abandoned and be included in Conrail due to the small amount of cars
                                    moved between the points.  It was Beechnut that begged to keep the line intact with
                                    a promise of more cars.
                                     
                                    Gino

                                    On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 10:13 PM, John <jsesonske@aol. com> wrote:
                                     

                                    State or Fed money actually completely rebuilt the West Shore to Fort Plain. They did ties rail ballast and everything. The line looked great and then like a year or so later Conrail didn't want to run it anymore and the tracks were torn up. I think that is when Conrail did their downsize and may have been the same time the DO got the Syracuse and Utica lines. It really amazed me how that money was wasted on the West Shore. I remember the articles on Ron's Mohawk and Hudson looking at the West Shore. I also remember that oddly the B&M was interested in the West Shore but Conrail refused them the short trackage rights at Rotterdam Jct--at least that is what was in the newspaper articles. Beech Nut was looking at converting to coal at the time and stated loss of the line would prohibit that. Beech Nut ended up trucking to DUI in South Schenectady and loading boxcars there and they were still doing it in the late 90's as I remember being at DUI and seeing boxcars getting loaded. Wouldn't Ron have gotten the stone business with the line or was Conrail keeping that no matter what?

                                    --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, "Gino's Railpage" <fjgrailroad@ ...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I remember that article coming out and how much it made me mad that they
                                    > said the RR wasn't needed. Barbara Harris, mentioned in the article was the
                                    > wife
                                    > of Glenn Harris, a state Assemblyman at the time. I think the two of them
                                    > started
                                    > avoiding the supermarket I worked at, because they knew I'd hound them to
                                    > save
                                    > the FJ&G. It started with answers like, "we're trying to save her," to
                                    > "there may
                                    > not be money to do it."
                                    >
                                    > Aaron mentioned Ron Crowd from the Battenkill and interest in the FJ&G.
                                    > Dave Nestle
                                    > told me Ron was shutout of looking at the line for estimates, but Ron told
                                    > me a
                                    > different story. Ron said he did look into it and it looked like 3 cars a
                                    > month which
                                    > wasn't worth it to anyone.
                                    >
                                    > The same thing happened with the West Shore. He looked into running the
                                    > line from
                                    > Rotterdam Jct. to Fort Plain and there was even some money to help him.
                                    > Heck, the
                                    > state had spent money in 1979 to replace ties. I was told once again that
                                    > Ron was
                                    > shut out of those negotiations, but he told me no and that he was promised 1
                                    > car-load
                                    > a month by Beech Nut. That was it.
                                    >
                                    > He went to the D&H's Washington Branch and the rest is history. I remember
                                    > an
                                    > article in the Leader about a Mohawk and Hudson Transportation Co. looking
                                    > into
                                    > the FJ&G, but that was Ron Crowd's new company...
                                    >
                                    > Gino
                                    >
                                    >




                                    --
                                    http://fjgrr. org
                                    http://ginosrailpag e.com
                                    http://ginostrolley page.com
                                    http://ginosmusicse rvice.com



                                  • Dicarlo, Gino
                                    That s for sure!!! From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Davis Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 1:56 PM
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 31, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      That's for sure!!!

                                       

                                      From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Davis
                                      Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 1:56 PM
                                      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line-West Shore

                                       

                                       

                                      Chucky never saw a microphone he didn't like.

                                      Gordon

                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                      Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 1:25 PM

                                      Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line-West Shore

                                       

                                       

                                      Yeah, and it was amazing that about five years ago, Schumer came up with a scheme to build a railroad bridge from Palatine Bridge to Ft. Plain to serve Beech-Nut.  Federal dollars, of course.  And obviously the bridge never materialized.

                                      -Aaron

                                       


                                      From: Gino's Railpage <fjgrailroad@...>
                                      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Sat, October 31, 2009 1:03:44 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line-West Shore


                                      Conrail used to get it's stone from Cushing, so I figure that they would have wanted

                                      that end intact.  Where the M&H would have set up shop I don't know.

                                       

                                      I asked Ron Crowd about interchanging the West Shore with the B&M at RJ, but he

                                      said it wasn't a problem at all.  One car a month from Beechnut was the biggest

                                      problem.  He also said that Beechnut would get a good rate from trucking if it still

                                      had the rail option to switch to.  After it was gone, they didn't have the bargaining

                                      chip.

                                       

                                      I've got numbers somewhere of the Government looking at that line before the creation

                                      of Conrail.  It was recommended by the DOT that the branch from Amsterdam to

                                      Fort Plain be abandoned and be included in Conrail due to the small amount of cars

                                      moved between the points.  It was Beechnut that begged to keep the line intact with

                                      a promise of more cars.

                                       

                                      Gino

                                      On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 10:13 PM, John <jsesonske@...> wrote:

                                       

                                      State or Fed money actually completely rebuilt the West Shore to Fort Plain. They did ties rail ballast and everything. The line looked great and then like a year or so later Conrail didn't want to run it anymore and the tracks were torn up. I think that is when Conrail did their downsize and may have been the same time the DO got the Syracuse and Utica lines. It really amazed me how that money was wasted on the West Shore. I remember the articles on Ron's Mohawk and Hudson looking at the West Shore. I also remember that oddly the B&M was interested in the West Shore but Conrail refused them the short trackage rights at Rotterdam Jct--at least that is what was in the newspaper articles. Beech Nut was looking at converting to coal at the time and stated loss of the line would prohibit that. Beech Nut ended up trucking to DUI in South Schenectady and loading boxcars there and they were still doing it in the late 90's as I remember being at DUI and seeing boxcars getting loaded. Wouldn't Ron have gotten the stone business with the line or was Conrail keeping that no matter what?

                                      --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "Gino's Railpage" <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I remember that article coming out and how much it made me mad that they
                                      > said the RR wasn't needed. Barbara Harris, mentioned in the article was the
                                      > wife
                                      > of Glenn Harris, a state Assemblyman at the time. I think the two of them
                                      > started
                                      > avoiding the supermarket I worked at, because they knew I'd hound them to
                                      > save
                                      > the FJ&G. It started with answers like, "we're trying to save her," to
                                      > "there may
                                      > not be money to do it."
                                      >
                                      > Aaron mentioned Ron Crowd from the Battenkill and interest in the FJ&G.
                                      > Dave Nestle
                                      > told me Ron was shutout of looking at the line for estimates, but Ron told
                                      > me a
                                      > different story. Ron said he did look into it and it looked like 3 cars a
                                      > month which
                                      > wasn't worth it to anyone.
                                      >
                                      > The same thing happened with the West Shore. He looked into running the
                                      > line from
                                      > Rotterdam Jct. to Fort Plain and there was even some money to help him.
                                      > Heck, the
                                      > state had spent money in 1979 to replace ties. I was told once again that
                                      > Ron was
                                      > shut out of those negotiations, but he told me no and that he was promised 1
                                      > car-load
                                      > a month by Beech Nut. That was it.
                                      >
                                      > He went to the D&H's Washington Branch and the rest is history. I remember
                                      > an
                                      > article in the Leader about a Mohawk and Hudson Transportation Co. looking
                                      > into
                                      > the FJ&G, but that was Ron Crowd's new company...
                                      >
                                      > Gino
                                      >
                                      >




                                      --
                                      http://fjgrr.org
                                      http://ginosrailpage.com
                                      http://ginostrolleypage.com
                                      http://ginosmusicservice.com

                                       

                                    • Charles Vosburgh
                                      Gino; Ed Czeski, the salesman for Cushing at that time, told me that Conrail did buy stone from them but not like the New York Central. He would travel to
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Oct 31, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Gino;  Ed Czeski,  the salesman for Cushing at that time, told me that Conrail did buy stone from them but not like the New York Central.  He would travel to Utica and wine and dine the bosses to get their business and it paid off.  Penn Central also but not as much,  defered maintance a better practice for them.  When CSX came along, sales were reduced to a dump truck load as needed.  They got their stone from down south for less money,  maybe their own quarries.  So even if the line was still open,  very little business would have come of it.  Charlie
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2009 1:03 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: The End of the Line-West Shore

                                         

                                        Conrail used to get it's stone from Cushing, so I figure that they would have wanted
                                        that end intact.  Where the M&H would have set up shop I don't know.
                                         
                                        I asked Ron Crowd about interchanging the West Shore with the B&M at RJ, but he
                                        said it wasn't a problem at all.  One car a month from Beechnut was the biggest
                                        problem.  He also said that Beechnut would get a good rate from trucking if it still
                                        had the rail option to switch to.  After it was gone, they didn't have the bargaining
                                        chip.
                                         
                                        I've got numbers somewhere of the Government looking at that line before the creation
                                        of Conrail.  It was recommended by the DOT that the branch from Amsterdam to
                                        Fort Plain be abandoned and be included in Conrail due to the small amount of cars
                                        moved between the points.  It was Beechnut that begged to keep the line intact with
                                        a promise of more cars.
                                         
                                        Gino

                                        On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 10:13 PM, John <jsesonske@aol. com> wrote:
                                         

                                        State or Fed money actually completely rebuilt the West Shore to Fort Plain. They did ties rail ballast and everything. The line looked great and then like a year or so later Conrail didn't want to run it anymore and the tracks were torn up. I think that is when Conrail did their downsize and may have been the same time the DO got the Syracuse and Utica lines. It really amazed me how that money was wasted on the West Shore. I remember the articles on Ron's Mohawk and Hudson looking at the West Shore. I also remember that oddly the B&M was interested in the West Shore but Conrail refused them the short trackage rights at Rotterdam Jct--at least that is what was in the newspaper articles. Beech Nut was looking at converting to coal at the time and stated loss of the line would prohibit that. Beech Nut ended up trucking to DUI in South Schenectady and loading boxcars there and they were still doing it in the late 90's as I remember being at DUI and seeing boxcars getting loaded. Wouldn't Ron have gotten the stone business with the line or was Conrail keeping that no matter what?

                                        --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, "Gino's Railpage" <fjgrailroad@ ...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I remember that article coming out and how much it made me mad that they
                                        > said the RR wasn't needed. Barbara Harris, mentioned in the article was the
                                        > wife
                                        > of Glenn Harris, a state Assemblyman at the time. I think the two of them
                                        > started
                                        > avoiding the supermarket I worked at, because they knew I'd hound them to
                                        > save
                                        > the FJ&G. It started with answers like, "we're trying to save her," to
                                        > "there may
                                        > not be money to do it."
                                        >
                                        > Aaron mentioned Ron Crowd from the Battenkill and interest in the FJ&G.
                                        > Dave Nestle
                                        > told me Ron was shutout of looking at the line for estimates, but Ron told
                                        > me a
                                        > different story. Ron said he did look into it and it looked like 3 cars a
                                        > month which
                                        > wasn't worth it to anyone.
                                        >
                                        > The same thing happened with the West Shore. He looked into running the
                                        > line from
                                        > Rotterdam Jct. to Fort Plain and there was even some money to help him.
                                        > Heck, the
                                        > state had spent money in 1979 to replace ties. I was told once again that
                                        > Ron was
                                        > shut out of those negotiations, but he told me no and that he was promised 1
                                        > car-load
                                        > a month by Beech Nut. That was it.
                                        >
                                        > He went to the D&H's Washington Branch and the rest is history. I remember
                                        > an
                                        > article in the Leader about a Mohawk and Hudson Transportation Co. looking
                                        > into
                                        > the FJ&G, but that was Ron Crowd's new company...
                                        >
                                        > Gino
                                        >
                                        >




                                        --
                                        http://fjgrr. org
                                        http://ginosrailpag e.com
                                        http://ginostrolley page.com
                                        http://ginosmusicse rvice.com

                                      • Aaron Keller
                                        Joe Klapkowski s article in Railpace more than a decade ago mentioned that the abrasive quality of rock at Cushing was no longer good for mainline ballast.
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Oct 31, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Joe Klapkowski's article in Railpace more than a decade ago mentioned that the abrasive quality of rock at Cushing was no longer good for mainline ballast. 

                                          Mainline ballast needs to have a specific abrasive quality to get it to hold together.  Picture using smooth stones from a river bed as ballast.  That obviously wouldn't work.

                                          Re:  Schumer.  At least he stands and tells us what he's doing; whether we like his policies or not.  There can't be as many secrets when a politician regularly makes himself available for independent questioning by the press.

                                          -Aaron

                                          __________________________________________________
                                          Do You Yahoo!?
                                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                          http://mail.yahoo.com
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.