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Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

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  • Aaron Keller
    I guess the best way to describe the situation right now is to say that the NYS&W is taking the leftovers of what CSX and NS do not care to handle. They run
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 26, 2009
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      I guess the best way to describe the situation right now is to say that the NYS&W is taking the leftovers of what CSX and NS do not care to handle.  They run road trains roughly three times a week or so up the old Southern Tier to Binghamton; these are well reported on one of the three NYS&W groups, depending on who cares to say what, and when, and to whom.  Usually some of those trains run to Syracuse --- I think.

      The primary traffic on the Syracuse line right now appears to be to and from Cortland.  Someone is going to town down there with new industrial developments all over the place.  Frequent switching is required and a job is based out of there.  Oftentimes the trains run with borrowed CSX SD40s, GP38s, or GP40s.

      The Utica Branch is nearly dead.  The GP40, 3040, holds down the duties there once in a great while.  UT-1 is said to go on duty four times a week but many days they apparently taxi to another spot on the railroad for duty.  One time I went up there with hopes of catching the train and I wound up hearing that the engine had not moved in more than a week.  The Utica Branch only operates from Utica to Sherburne at present; with cars stored further south.  Most of what little traffic is left is in the Utica area or between Utica and Sangerfield.  Smurfit-Stone used to require frequent switching in New Hartford but they are in very bad financial shape right now.  One of their primary mills on the E&LS in Upper Michigan has shut down; the E&LS is nearly dead, too, because of it.

      The NYS&W does have a fleet of road power that still operates in the famous yellow scheme... I saw some of it a few weeks ago in Binghamton.  But many of the older engines are in a dead line down there and are apparently for sale. 

      A few recent examples:

      http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=293021

      http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=265839

      http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=246286

      http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=224451

      Note that in a few of those examples the trains are just sitting there waiting for a recrew.  That seems to be the general story of all Northeastern railroading right now. 

      -Aaron






      From: joseph Klapkowski <riverlinejoe@...>
      To: Fonda Johnstown <fjgrailroad@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 1:45:26 PM
      Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2



      What is going on at DO now? Once upoon a time they were an aggressive transportation company. Although I do not subscribe to the NYSW list, I do not hear much about them anymore. Are they still in the bulk delivery business? Do they operate into Staten Island? mIs there any stack business left for them?
       

      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      From: fjgrailroad@...
      Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:13:43 +0000
      Subject: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

       
      Hi guys,

      Mark Wilbur, former FJ&G/DO Conductor, now NYS&W passed some photos along to me. They're of former DO-Line, CACV #2 being placed on a flatbed for removal from the DO Corp. Property. It was sold to someone in Maryland. I've posted them to my webpage, here is the link: http://www.fjgrr. org/ginospage/ CACV_DOS2/ DOCCACV2. html

      The photos were taken by NYS&W Dispatcher Tom Ross.

      Gino




      Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!


    • Mark Wilber
      I dont think all hell is breaking loose. I think we are holding our ground pretty good.Suit-Kote in Cortland keeps everyone busy.Possibility we may take over
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 26, 2009
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        I dont think all hell is breaking loose. I think we are holding our ground pretty good.Suit-Kote in Cortland keeps everyone busy.Possibility we may take over the Campbell Hall work from the NS,along with the Hudson Secondary from CP-HJ to Warwick.If we are all working at 50hrs per week,Id say the work and the money must be there. And with the pictures with the trains are just sitting may have a reason. Some of these trains cant head north until the southbound arrives in Binghamton,due to having single track from Binghamton to Syracuse. Some of these northbounds are no rush to run. Company doesnt want a crew to go north,interchange than have a crew sit and wait for hours on the inbound drop by the CSX. They'd rather time it right to have the crew get up there,interchange the outbounds,have the inbounds already there,then switch the southbound train,then start heading south,until relieved.


        From: Fjgrailroad <fjgrailroad@...>
        To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 1:48:19 PM
        Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

         

        I think they're having a going out of business sale!
        Walter died and all hell is breaking loose!!!

        Sent from my iPhone

        On Oct 26, 2009, at 1:45 PM, joseph Klapkowski <riverlinejoe@ hotmail.com> wrote:

         

        What is going on at DO now? Once upoon a time they were an aggressive transportation company. Although I do not subscribe to the NYSW list, I do not hear much about them anymore. Are they still in the bulk delivery business? Do they operate into Staten Island? mIs there any stack business left for them?
         


        To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
        From: fjgrailroad@gmail.com
        Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:13:43 +0000
        Subject: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

         
        Hi guys,

        Mark Wilbur, former FJ&G/DO Conductor, now NYS&W passed some photos along to me. They're of former DO-Line, CACV #2 being placed on a flatbed for removal from the DO Corp. Property. It was sold to someone in Maryland. I've posted them to my webpage, here is the link: http://www.fjgrr. org/ginospage/ CACV_DOS2/ DOCCACV2. html

        The photos were taken by NYS&W Dispatcher Tom Ross.

        Gino




        Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!


      • John
        I have always liked the DO and then NYSW because of their connection to the FJG and their always interesting power. But I have always been frustrated by the
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 26, 2009
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          I have always liked the DO and then NYSW because of their connection to the FJG and their always interesting power. But I have always been frustrated by the fact that it always appeared as though Walt got a new toy, played with it, got bored and discarded it. And that they only did stuff with public money (although that might just be survival in the Northeast economy).

          FJG, CACV, CNY--bought and discarded when the NYSW became the new toy.
          You could argue all these lines outlived their usefulness but I am not sure how hard DO tried to keep them alive. They could have set up a tourist line on the CACV instead of letting it die and the FJG had more life if they cut it back to Coleco and hung on a little longer.

          LASB-tossed aside

          Auto Train domes--played with and tossed

          Steam--played with and tossed

          RDC and Syracuse commuter--played with and tossed

          E's--played with beat up and tossed

          Utica Branch tossed (I know it flooded but??)--does Matts Brewery still get cars?

          Not sure why they got the new 6 axle SD70's or why they got rid of the 4 B40's that seemed to work well.

          I thought NS still owned the tracks from Port Jervis to CP BD. Does NYSW dispatch this line or does NS and are the signals still turned on. This section of the old EL has always been one of my favorite sections of scenic track. After seeing all the CR and NYSW stacks in the 90's its depressing to see it today but with the siding expansions on CSX River Line and the withering of Northeast industry the line seems to have limited potential.

          Its kind of funny that in the EL days the EL shifted several times (for various reasons) from favoring the Delaware Division to favoring the Pocono route via Scranton and now, in the 80's and 90's the Pocono route was nearly dead while the old Erie was busy and now in the 2000's the old Erie is nearly dead and the Pocono route is busy with a potentially brighter future. Just seems funny how history can repeat for completely different reasons.


          --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Fjgrailroad <fjgrailroad@...> wrote:
          >
          > I think they're having a going out of business sale!
          > Walter died and all hell is breaking loose!!!
          >
          > Sent from my iPhone
          >
          > On Oct 26, 2009, at 1:45 PM, joseph Klapkowski
          > <riverlinejoe@...> wrote:
          >
          > > What is going on at DO now? Once upoon a time they were an
          > > aggressive transportation company. Although I do not subscribe to
          > > the NYSW list, I do not hear much about them anymore. Are they still
          > > in the bulk delivery business? Do they operate into Staten Island?
          > > mIs there any stack business left for them?
          > >
          > > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > From: fjgrailroad@...
          > > Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:13:43 +0000
          > > Subject: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi guys,
          > >
          > > Mark Wilbur, former FJ&G/DO Conductor, now NYS&W passed some photos
          > > along to me. They're of former DO-Line, CACV #2 being placed on a
          > > flatbed for removal from the DO Corp. Property. It was sold to
          > > someone in Maryland. I've posted them to my webpage, here is the
          > > link: http://www.fjgrr.org/ginospage/CACV_DOS2/DOCCACV2.html
          > >
          > > The photos were taken by NYS&W Dispatcher Tom Ross.
          > >
          > > Gino
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!
          > >
          >
        • joseph Klapkowski
          In all fairness, Walter was once cornered by a Leader Herald reporter when DO held a meeting to discuss the possible discontinuance of service on the FJ&G.
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 26, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            In all fairness, Walter was once cornered by a Leader Herald reporter when DO held a meeting to discuss the possible discontinuance of service on the FJ&G. Walter responded that the LH had stopped shipping newsprint by rail, how could he continue to serve the county if there was no business.........
             

            To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            From: jsesonske@...
            Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 02:23:59 +0000
            Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

             


            I have always liked the DO and then NYSW because of their connection to the FJG and their always interesting power. But I have always been frustrated by the fact that it always appeared as though Walt got a new toy, played with it, got bored and discarded it. And that they only did stuff with public money (although that might just be survival in the Northeast economy).

            FJG, CACV, CNY--bought and discarded when the NYSW became the new toy.
            You could argue all these lines outlived their usefulness but I am not sure how hard DO tried to keep them alive. They could have set up a tourist line on the CACV instead of letting it die and the FJG had more life if they cut it back to Coleco and hung on a little longer.

            LASB-tossed aside

            Auto Train domes--played with and tossed

            Steam--played with and tossed

            RDC and Syracuse commuter--played with and tossed

            E's--played with beat up and tossed

            Utica Branch tossed (I know it flooded but??)--does Matts Brewery still get cars?

            Not sure why they got the new 6 axle SD70's or why they got rid of the 4 B40's that seemed to work well.

            I thought NS still owned the tracks from Port Jervis to CP BD. Does NYSW dispatch this line or does NS and are the signals still turned on. This section of the old EL has always been one of my favorite sections of scenic track. After seeing all the CR and NYSW stacks in the 90's its depressing to see it today but with the siding expansions on CSX River Line and the withering of Northeast industry the line seems to have limited potential.

            Its kind of funny that in the EL days the EL shifted several times (for various reasons) from favoring the Delaware Division to favoring the Pocono route via Scranton and now, in the 80's and 90's the Pocono route was nearly dead while the old Erie was busy and now in the 2000's the old Erie is nearly dead and the Pocono route is busy with a potentially brighter future. Just seems funny how history can repeat for completely different reasons.

            --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Fjgrailroad <fjgrailroad@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > I think they're having a going out of business sale!
            > Walter died and all hell is breaking loose!!!
            >
            > Sent from my iPhone
            >
            > On Oct 26, 2009, at 1:45 PM, joseph Klapkowski
            > <riverlinejoe@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > > What is going on at DO now? Once upoon a time they were an
            > > aggressive transportation company. Although I do not subscribe to
            > > the NYSW list, I do not hear much about them anymore. Are they still
            > > in the bulk delivery business? Do they operate into Staten Island?
            > > mIs there any stack business left for them?
            > >
            > > To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
            > > From: fjgrailroad@ ...
            > > Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:13:43 +0000
            > > Subject: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi guys,
            > >
            > > Mark Wilbur, former FJ&G/DO Conductor, now NYS&W passed some photos
            > > along to me. They're of former DO-Line, CACV #2 being placed on a
            > > flatbed for removal from the DO Corp. Property. It was sold to
            > > someone in Maryland. I've posted them to my webpage, here is the
            > > link: http://www.fjgrr. org/ginospage/ CACV_DOS2/ DOCCACV2. html
            > >
            > > The photos were taken by NYS&W Dispatcher Tom Ross.
            > >
            > > Gino
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!
            > >
            >




            Windows 7: It helps you do more. Explore Windows 7.
          • Dicarlo, Gino
            Mark, Do you still service the Utica area? Someone told me NYSW sold their Utica Shops. Gino From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 26, 2009
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              Mark,

               

              Do you still service the Utica area?  Someone told me NYSW sold their Utica Shops.

               

              Gino

               

              From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Wilber
              Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 9:30 PM
              To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

               

               

              I dont think all hell is breaking loose. I think we are holding our ground pretty good.Suit-Kote in Cortland keeps everyone busy.Possibility we may take over the Campbell Hall work from the NS,along with the Hudson Secondary from CP-HJ to Warwick.If we are all working at 50hrs per week,Id say the work and the money must be there. And with the pictures with the trains are just sitting may have a reason. Some of these trains cant head north until the southbound arrives in Binghamton,due to having single track from Binghamton to Syracuse. Some of these northbounds are no rush to run. Company doesnt want a crew to go north,interchange than have a crew sit and wait for hours on the inbound drop by the CSX. They'd rather time it right to have the crew get up there,interchange the outbounds,have the inbounds already there,then switch the southbound train,then start heading south,until relieved.

               


              From: Fjgrailroad <fjgrailroad@...>
              To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 1:48:19 PM
              Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

               

              I think they're having a going out of business sale!

              Walter died and all hell is breaking loose!!!

              Sent from my iPhone


              On Oct 26, 2009, at 1:45 PM, joseph Klapkowski <riverlinejoe@ hotmail.com> wrote:

               

              What is going on at DO now? Once upoon a time they were an aggressive transportation company. Although I do not subscribe to the NYSW list, I do not hear much about them anymore. Are they still in the bulk delivery business? Do they operate into Staten Island? mIs there any stack business left for them?
               


              To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
              From: fjgrailroad@gmail.com
              Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:13:43 +0000
              Subject: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

               

              Hi guys,

              Mark Wilbur, former FJ&G/DO Conductor, now NYS&W passed some photos along to me. They're of former DO-Line, CACV #2 being placed on a flatbed for removal from the DO Corp. Property. It was sold to someone in Maryland. I've posted them to my webpage, here is the link: http://www.fjgrr. org/ginospage/ CACV_DOS2/ DOCCACV2. html

              The photos were taken by NYS&W Dispatcher Tom Ross.

              Gino

               


              Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!

               

            • Aaron Keller
              Mark, Good to hear things are staying busy on your end. -Aaron
              Message 6 of 30 , Oct 26, 2009
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                Mark,

                Good to hear things are staying busy on your end.

                -Aaron

              • Mark Wilber
                They just hired two more people for NJ.This Campbell Hall thing can create more work for us. As long as it keeps putting money in my pockets for the next 4
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 27, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  They just hired two more people for NJ.This Campbell Hall thing can create more work for us. As long as it keeps putting money in my pockets for the next 4 years,I'll be happy-Mark


                  From: Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@...>
                  To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tue, October 27, 2009 1:47:24 AM
                  Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                   

                  Mark,

                  Good to hear things are staying busy on your end.

                  -Aaron


                • Mark Wilber
                  The Utica shops are now owned by R.D.I. (Ron Delavan Inc.).He does locomotive repairs. We lease a small area from him. We still serve the Utica area and to
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 27, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The Utica shops are now owned by R.D.I. (Ron Delavan Inc.).He does locomotive repairs. We lease a small area from him. We still serve the Utica area and to Sangerfield and sometimes south to Sherburne.I havent been up there in years. Mark


                    From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                    To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 11:56:23 PM
                    Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                     

                    Mark,

                     

                    Do you still service the Utica area?  Someone told me NYSW sold their Utica Shops.

                     

                    Gino

                     

                    From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Mark Wilber
                    Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 9:30 PM
                    To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                    Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                     

                     

                    I dont think all hell is breaking loose. I think we are holding our ground pretty good.Suit-Kote in Cortland keeps everyone busy.Possibility we may take over the Campbell Hall work from the NS,along with the Hudson Secondary from CP-HJ to Warwick.If we are all working at 50hrs per week,Id say the work and the money must be there. And with the pictures with the trains are just sitting may have a reason. Some of these trains cant head north until the southbound arrives in Binghamton,due to having single track from Binghamton to Syracuse. Some of these northbounds are no rush to run. Company doesnt want a crew to go north,interchange than have a crew sit and wait for hours on the inbound drop by the CSX. They'd rather time it right to have the crew get up there,interchange the outbounds,have the inbounds already there,then switch the southbound train,then start heading south,until relieved.

                     


                    From: Fjgrailroad <fjgrailroad@ gmail.com>
                    To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                    Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 1:48:19 PM
                    Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                     

                    I think they're having a going out of business sale!

                    Walter died and all hell is breaking loose!!!

                    Sent from my iPhone


                    On Oct 26, 2009, at 1:45 PM, joseph Klapkowski <riverlinejoe@ hotmail.com> wrote:

                     

                    What is going on at DO now? Once upoon a time they were an aggressive transportation company. Although I do not subscribe to the NYSW list, I do not hear much about them anymore. Are they still in the bulk delivery business? Do they operate into Staten Island? mIs there any stack business left for them?
                     


                    To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                    From: fjgrailroad@gmail.com
                    Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:13:43 +0000
                    Subject: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                     

                    Hi guys,

                    Mark Wilbur, former FJ&G/DO Conductor, now NYS&W passed some photos along to me. They're of former DO-Line, CACV #2 being placed on a flatbed for removal from the DO Corp. Property. It was sold to someone in Maryland. I've posted them to my webpage, here is the link: http://www.fjgrr. org/ginospage/ CACV_DOS2/ DOCCACV2. html

                    The photos were taken by NYS&W Dispatcher Tom Ross.

                    Gino

                     


                    Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!

                     


                  • Mark Wilber
                    People can ridicule of Walts ways of running the show,but the way I look at it,he put money in my pockets for 33 years.Of course Ive seen some things done or
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 27, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      People can ridicule of Walts ways of running the show,but the way I look at it,he put money in my pockets for 33 years.Of course Ive seen some things done or bought that I frown on.A lot of stuff that was done was alot of experimental to succeed. If it made money,he stucked to it, if it didn't make money,then he got rid of it (common sense).
                        We do dispatch between Port Jervis and Binghamton,with most of the signals are still there. Its all single track from Lanesboro (over the mountain) to Deposit.Mark


                      From: John <jsesonske@...>
                      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 9:23:59 PM
                      Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                       



                      I have always liked the DO and then NYSW because of their connection to the FJG and their always interesting power. But I have always been frustrated by the fact that it always appeared as though Walt got a new toy, played with it, got bored and discarded it. And that they only did stuff with public money (although that might just be survival in the Northeast economy).

                      FJG, CACV, CNY--bought and discarded when the NYSW became the new toy.
                      You could argue all these lines outlived their usefulness but I am not sure how hard DO tried to keep them alive. They could have set up a tourist line on the CACV instead of letting it die and the FJG had more life if they cut it back to Coleco and hung on a little longer.

                      LASB-tossed aside

                      Auto Train domes--played with and tossed

                      Steam--played with and tossed

                      RDC and Syracuse commuter--played with and tossed

                      E's--played with beat up and tossed

                      Utica Branch tossed (I know it flooded but??)--does Matts Brewery still get cars?

                      Not sure why they got the new 6 axle SD70's or why they got rid of the 4 B40's that seemed to work well.

                      I thought NS still owned the tracks from Port Jervis to CP BD. Does NYSW dispatch this line or does NS and are the signals still turned on. This section of the old EL has always been one of my favorite sections of scenic track. After seeing all the CR and NYSW stacks in the 90's its depressing to see it today but with the siding expansions on CSX River Line and the withering of Northeast industry the line seems to have limited potential.

                      Its kind of funny that in the EL days the EL shifted several times (for various reasons) from favoring the Delaware Division to favoring the Pocono route via Scranton and now, in the 80's and 90's the Pocono route was nearly dead while the old Erie was busy and now in the 2000's the old Erie is nearly dead and the Pocono route is busy with a potentially brighter future. Just seems funny how history can repeat for completely different reasons.

                      --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Fjgrailroad <fjgrailroad@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I think they're having a going out of business sale!
                      > Walter died and all hell is breaking loose!!!
                      >
                      > Sent from my iPhone
                      >
                      > On Oct 26, 2009, at 1:45 PM, joseph Klapkowski
                      > <riverlinejoe@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > What is going on at DO now? Once upoon a time they were an
                      > > aggressive transportation company. Although I do not subscribe to
                      > > the NYSW list, I do not hear much about them anymore. Are they still
                      > > in the bulk delivery business? Do they operate into Staten Island?
                      > > mIs there any stack business left for them?
                      > >
                      > > To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                      > > From: fjgrailroad@ ...
                      > > Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:13:43 +0000
                      > > Subject: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi guys,
                      > >
                      > > Mark Wilbur, former FJ&G/DO Conductor, now NYS&W passed some photos
                      > > along to me. They're of former DO-Line, CACV #2 being placed on a
                      > > flatbed for removal from the DO Corp. Property. It was sold to
                      > > someone in Maryland. I've posted them to my webpage, here is the
                      > > link: http://www.fjgrr. org/ginospage/ CACV_DOS2/ DOCCACV2. html
                      > >
                      > > The photos were taken by NYS&W Dispatcher Tom Ross.
                      > >
                      > > Gino
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!
                      > >
                      >


                    • Dicarlo, Gino
                      They ve got to run from Syracuse all the way to Utica, right? Have the ripped the main out between Bingo and Norwich? Gino From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 27, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment

                        They've got to run from Syracuse all the way to Utica, right?  Have the ripped the main out

                        between Bingo and Norwich?

                         

                        Gino

                         

                        From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Wilber
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 9:52 PM
                        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                         

                         

                        The Utica shops are now owned by R.D.I. (Ron Delavan Inc.).He does locomotive repairs. We lease a small area from him. We still serve the Utica area and to Sangerfield and sometimes south to Sherburne.I havent been up there in years. Mark

                         


                        From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                        To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 11:56:23 PM
                        Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                         

                        Mark,

                         

                        Do you still service the Utica area?  Someone told me NYSW sold their Utica Shops.

                         

                        Gino

                         

                        From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Mark Wilber
                        Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 9:30 PM
                        To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                         

                         

                        I dont think all hell is breaking loose. I think we are holding our ground pretty good.Suit-Kote in Cortland keeps everyone busy.Possibility we may take over the Campbell Hall work from the NS,along with the Hudson Secondary from CP-HJ to Warwick.If we are all working at 50hrs per week,Id say the work and the money must be there. And with the pictures with the trains are just sitting may have a reason. Some of these trains cant head north until the southbound arrives in Binghamton,due to having single track from Binghamton to Syracuse. Some of these northbounds are no rush to run. Company doesnt want a crew to go north,interchange than have a crew sit and wait for hours on the inbound drop by the CSX. They'd rather time it right to have the crew get up there,interchange the outbounds,have the inbounds already there,then switch the southbound train,then start heading south,until relieved.

                         


                        From: Fjgrailroad <fjgrailroad@ gmail.com>
                        To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                        Sent: Mon, October 26, 2009 1:48:19 PM
                        Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                         

                        I think they're having a going out of business sale!

                        Walter died and all hell is breaking loose!!!

                        Sent from my iPhone


                        On Oct 26, 2009, at 1:45 PM, joseph Klapkowski <riverlinejoe@ hotmail.com> wrote:

                         

                        What is going on at DO now? Once upoon a time they were an aggressive transportation company. Although I do not subscribe to the NYSW list, I do not hear much about them anymore. Are they still in the bulk delivery business? Do they operate into Staten Island? mIs there any stack business left for them?
                         


                        To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                        From: fjgrailroad@gmail.com
                        Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 16:13:43 +0000
                        Subject: [FJGRailroad] DO-Line/CACV #2

                         

                        Hi guys,

                        Mark Wilbur, former FJ&G/DO Conductor, now NYS&W passed some photos along to me. They're of former DO-Line, CACV #2 being placed on a flatbed for removal from the DO Corp. Property. It was sold to someone in Maryland. I've posted them to my webpage, here is the link: http://www.fjgrr. org/ginospage/ CACV_DOS2/ DOCCACV2. html

                        The photos were taken by NYS&W Dispatcher Tom Ross.

                        Gino

                         


                        Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!

                         

                         

                      • Aaron Keller
                        Mark, I will second your opinions on DO s way of business. People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has been to suggest that
                        Message 11 of 30 , Oct 27, 2009
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                          Mark,

                          I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.

                          People have criticized it for years.  My response back to those critics has been to suggest that they buy stock.  DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money.  Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets.  Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well. 

                          I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s right up until the end.  He told me that Walter made him a lot of money.  The equation was simple:  government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends.  All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far. 

                          The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through my three and a half years at Syracuse University.  They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them.  They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work.  So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it.  It worked for nearly a decade.

                          I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years.  They've spent a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run.  I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars.  Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.

                          -Aaron

                        • joseph Klapkowski
                          What happened to ON Track? Can anyone provide a brief history of the operation? To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com From: akeller_1979@yahoo.com Date: Tue, 27 Oct
                          Message 12 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            What happened to ON Track?
                             Can anyone provide a brief history of the operation?

                            To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                            From: akeller_1979@...
                            Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:11:56 -0700
                            Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                             
                            Mark,

                            I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.

                            People have criticized it for years.  My response back to those critics has been to suggest that they buy stock.  DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money.  Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets.  Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well. 

                            I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s right up until the end.  He told me that Walter made him a lot of money.  The equation was simple:  government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends.  All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far. 

                            The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through my three and a half years at Syracuse University.  They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them.  They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work.  So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it.  It worked for nearly a decade.

                            I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years.  They've spent a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run.  I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars.  Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.

                            -Aaron




                            Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!
                          • John
                            Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real
                            Message 13 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                              Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                              To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                              However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                              Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                              I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                              The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                              Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.



                              --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Mark,
                              >
                              > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                              >
                              > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                              >
                              > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                              >
                              > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                              >
                              > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                              >
                              > -Aaron
                              >
                            • joseph Klapkowski
                              Just to clarify a point, and I have mentioned it here before, The DO did not give up the plastic business, they moved it from Utica by truck. If you got the
                              Message 14 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
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                                Just to clarify a point, and I have mentioned it here before, The DO did not give up the plastic business, they moved it from Utica by truck. If you got the same rate for moving the plastic but did not have to maintain track, pay insurance etc....
                                 

                                To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                From: jsesonske@...
                                Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 22:08:56 +0000
                                Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                 
                                Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Mark,
                                >
                                > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                >
                                > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                >
                                > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                >
                                > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                >
                                > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                >
                                > -Aaron
                                >




                                Windows 7: It works the way you want. Learn more.
                              • Mark Wilber
                                A few years before the Delaware & Otsego was out of the picture, shares of stock were given to their employees ( amount of shares depended on length of
                                Message 15 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  A few years before the Delaware & Otsego was out of the picture, shares of stock were given to their employees ( amount of shares depended on length of service),so when the buy came,most of us did ok.  Years ago when Walt was getting the DO line to Cooperstown,shares were selling at $10. At one time it was selling at around $3 a share. As time went by, shares split by two, then split by 4,then split again by 10. So 1 share became 80 shares. The buy out came at the final price at about $25.  So every share you bought at $3,you'd could of cashed it in for $2,000.  If you decided to buy 100 shares at $300, you could of made $200,000. Id say it was a good investment. Mark


                                  From: John <jsesonske@...>
                                  To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 5:08:56 PM
                                  Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                   

                                  Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                  Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                  To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                  However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                  Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                  I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                  The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                  Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                  --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Mark,
                                  >
                                  > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                  >
                                  > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                  >
                                  > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                  >
                                  > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                  >
                                  > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                  >
                                  > -Aaron
                                  >


                                • Dicarlo, Gino
                                  One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines! I love the lines of the DO System. Of course the FJ&G is my favorite. I called Walter
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
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                                    One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines!  I love the lines of

                                    the DO System.  Of course the FJ&G is my favorite.  I called Walter once to ask him about

                                    the DO System and he actually called me back.  I had a ton of questions, but I kept it quick.

                                    I asked him one question and to this day  I wish I could take it back.

                                     

                                    Listen to this John........I asked Walter if the FJ&G, CACV and CNYK were neglected and left

                                    to die due to the acquisition of the NYSW.  Let me tell you, he didn't like that question and

                                    in hindsight I don't blame him.  He basically told me that the business dried up and that's

                                    that.  He also told me how they put money into the FJ&G after the NYSW purchase to

                                    improve the line.  1980 and 81 were big business for the line and he wanted to grow it!

                                     

                                    It all went down hill, not long after. Coleco started focusing their attention on electronic

                                    games, which did require plastic, but not the boat loads like swimming pools and other

                                    recreational equipment did. The Salt businesses in Gville and Jtown switched to trucks, the

                                    Leader Herald switched to trucks, no more sawdust and wood shipped from Broadalbin,

                                    Hussman switched to trucks and the biggest nail in the coffin, Kargs stopped shipping hides

                                    by rail.  Even the Per-Diem business of storing 'foreign' cars on the back-line dried up.

                                     

                                    Basically, there was one business left and that was the fertilizer plant in Johnstown.  They wanted

                                    someone to run a train to them whenever needed and Walter wasn't interested.  I guess they were

                                    sending one car out a month.  That's all, not enough to keep the line open to Johnstown.  There

                                    was also talk of an industrial park in Johnstown, but by the time the line was scrapped in

                                    1990, it wasn't anything interested in rail.

                                     

                                    So, I get the feeling that Walt wanted to keep the line going.  He told me he would have done

                                    anything necessary to keep the line intact for a new operator.  

                                     

                                    Read what you want, I love the FJ&G and was very sad to see her close.  Unlike the Battenkill

                                    with a few dedicated employees sacrificing with no money to keep that line open, Walter

                                    wasn't going to do that!

                                     

                                    Oh, one more question I asked him....I had the nerve to ask him if he was hiding the Adirondack

                                    engines on the FJ&G to keep them from creditors.  He told me no,  he was keeping them there

                                    until they were painted.  Again, I would take that one back too...

                                     

                                    Gino

                                     

                                    From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
                                    Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:09 PM
                                    To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                     

                                     

                                    Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                    Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                    To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                    However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                    Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                    I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                    The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                    Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                    --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Mark,
                                    >
                                    > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                    >
                                    > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has
                                    been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                    >
                                    > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s
                                    right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                    >
                                    > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through
                                    my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                    >
                                    > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent
                                    a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                    >
                                    > -Aaron
                                    >

                                  • Dean Splittgerber
                                    Gino, Did you ever ask him why he scrapped the #20 and #21 when he left other equipment that was derelict alone? Dean ________________________________ From:
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Gino, Did you ever ask him why he scrapped the #20 and #21 when he left other equipment that was derelict alone? Dean


                                      From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                                      To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:54:14 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                       

                                      One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines!  I love the lines of

                                      the DO System.  Of course the FJ&G is my favorite.  I called Walter once to ask him about

                                      the DO System and he actually called me back.  I had a ton of questions, but I kept it quick.

                                      I asked him one question and to this day  I wish I could take it back.

                                       

                                      Listen to this John........ I asked Walter if the FJ&G, CACV and CNYK were neglected and left

                                      to die due to the acquisition of the NYSW.  Let me tell you, he didn't like that question and

                                      in hindsight I don't blame him.  He basically told me that the business dried up and that's

                                      that.  He also told me how they put money into the FJ&G after the NYSW purchase to

                                      improve the line.  1980 and 81 were big business for the line and he wanted to grow it!

                                       

                                      It all went down hill, not long after. Coleco started focusing their attention on electronic

                                      games, which did require plastic, but not the boat loads like swimming pools and other

                                      recreational equipment did. The Salt businesses in Gville and Jtown switched to trucks, the

                                      Leader Herald switched to trucks, no more sawdust and wood shipped from Broadalbin,

                                      Hussman switched to trucks and the biggest nail in the coffin, Kargs stopped shipping hides

                                      by rail.  Even the Per-Diem business of storing 'foreign' cars on the back-line dried up.

                                       

                                      Basically, there was one business left and that was the fertilizer plant in Johnstown.  They wanted

                                      someone to run a train to them whenever needed and Walter wasn't interested.  I guess they were

                                      sending one car out a month.  That's all, not enough to keep the line open to Johnstown.  There

                                      was also talk of an industrial park in Johnstown, but by the time the line was scrapped in

                                      1990, it wasn't anything interested in rail.

                                       

                                      So, I get the feeling that Walt wanted to keep the line going.  He told me he would have done

                                      anything necessary to keep the line intact for a new operator.  

                                       

                                      Read what you want, I love the FJ&G and was very sad to see her close.  Unlike the Battenkill

                                      with a few dedicated employees sacrificing with no money to keep that line open, Walter

                                      wasn't going to do that!

                                       

                                      Oh, one more question I asked him....I had the nerve to ask him if he was hiding the Adirondack

                                      engines on the FJ&G to keep them from creditors.  He told me no,  he was keeping them there

                                      until they were painted.  Again, I would take that one back too...

                                       

                                      Gino

                                       

                                      From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
                                      Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:09 PM
                                      To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                      Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                       

                                       

                                      Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                      Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                      To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                      However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                      Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                      I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                      The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                      Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                      --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > Mark,
                                      >
                                      > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                      >
                                      > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has
                                      been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                      >
                                      > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s
                                      right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                      >
                                      > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through
                                      my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                      >
                                      > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent
                                      a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                      >
                                      > -Aaron
                                      >


                                    • Dicarlo, Gino
                                      I did ask him that. He said it was his intention to have those engines fixed, not scrapped (They didn t get scrapped until the late 80 s) , but they had more
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment

                                        I did ask him that.  He said it was his intention to have those engines fixed, not scrapped  (They didn't

                                        get scrapped until the late 80's) , but they had more problems than he thought.  Heck, the 100 and

                                        103 came to Gloversville to work until those engines were fixed, but they ended up replacing them...

                                         

                                        Gino

                                         

                                        From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:11 PM
                                        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                         

                                         

                                        Gino, Did you ever ask him why he scrapped the #20 and #21 when he left other equipment that was derelict alone? Dean

                                         


                                        From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                                        To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:54:14 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                         

                                        One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines!  I love the lines of

                                        the DO System.  Of course the FJ&G is my favorite.  I called Walter once to ask him about

                                        the DO System and he actually called me back.  I had a ton of questions, but I kept it quick.

                                        I asked him one question and to this day  I wish I could take it back.

                                         

                                        Listen to this John........ I asked Walter if the FJ&G, CACV and CNYK were neglected and left

                                        to die due to the acquisition of the NYSW.  Let me tell you, he didn't like that question and

                                        in hindsight I don't blame him.  He basically told me that the business dried up and that's

                                        that.  He also told me how they put money into the FJ&G after the NYSW purchase to

                                        improve the line.  1980 and 81 were big business for the line and he wanted to grow it!

                                         

                                        It all went down hill, not long after. Coleco started focusing their attention on electronic

                                        games, which did require plastic, but not the boat loads like swimming pools and other

                                        recreational equipment did. The Salt businesses in Gville and Jtown switched to trucks, the

                                        Leader Herald switched to trucks, no more sawdust and wood shipped from Broadalbin,

                                        Hussman switched to trucks and the biggest nail in the coffin, Kargs stopped shipping hides

                                        by rail.  Even the Per-Diem business of storing 'foreign' cars on the back-line dried up.

                                         

                                        Basically, there was one business left and that was the fertilizer plant in Johnstown.  They wanted

                                        someone to run a train to them whenever needed and Walter wasn't interested.  I guess they were

                                        sending one car out a month.  That's all, not enough to keep the line open to Johnstown.  There

                                        was also talk of an industrial park in Johnstown, but by the time the line was scrapped in

                                        1990, it wasn't anything interested in rail.

                                         

                                        So, I get the feeling that Walt wanted to keep the line going.  He told me he would have done

                                        anything necessary to keep the line intact for a new operator.  

                                         

                                        Read what you want, I love the FJ&G and was very sad to see her close.  Unlike the Battenkill

                                        with a few dedicated employees sacrificing with no money to keep that line open, Walter

                                        wasn't going to do that!

                                         

                                        Oh, one more question I asked him....I had the nerve to ask him if he was hiding the Adirondack

                                        engines on the FJ&G to keep them from creditors.  He told me no,  he was keeping them there

                                        until they were painted.  Again, I would take that one back too...

                                         

                                        Gino

                                         

                                        From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:09 PM
                                        To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                        Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                         

                                         

                                        Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                        Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                        To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                        However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                        Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                        I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                        The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                        Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                        --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        > Mark,
                                        >
                                        > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                        >
                                        > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has
                                        been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                        >
                                        > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s
                                        right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                        >
                                        > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through
                                        my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                        >
                                        > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent
                                        a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                        >
                                        > -Aaron
                                        >

                                         

                                      • Dean Splittgerber
                                        Thanks, Regardless if they were junkers they should have been saved. It wasn t like there was 20 of them laying around. Oh well!
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Thanks, Regardless if they were junkers they should have been saved. It wasn't like there was 20 of them laying around. Oh well!


                                          From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                                          To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:13:54 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                           

                                          I did ask him that.  He said it was his intention to have those engines fixed, not scrapped  (They didn't

                                          get scrapped until the late 80's) , but they had more problems than he thought.  Heck, the 100 and

                                          103 came to Gloversville to work until those engines were fixed, but they ended up replacing them...

                                           

                                          Gino

                                           

                                          From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                          Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:11 PM
                                          To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                           

                                           

                                          Gino, Did you ever ask him why he scrapped the #20 and #21 when he left other equipment that was derelict alone? Dean

                                           


                                          From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                          To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                          Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:54:14 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                           

                                          One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines!  I love the lines of

                                          the DO System.  Of course the FJ&G is my favorite.  I called Walter once to ask him about

                                          the DO System and he actually called me back.  I had a ton of questions, but I kept it quick.

                                          I asked him one question and to this day  I wish I could take it back.

                                           

                                          Listen to this John........ I asked Walter if the FJ&G, CACV and CNYK were neglected and left

                                          to die due to the acquisition of the NYSW.  Let me tell you, he didn't like that question and

                                          in hindsight I don't blame him.  He basically told me that the business dried up and that's

                                          that.  He also told me how they put money into the FJ&G after the NYSW purchase to

                                          improve the line.  1980 and 81 were big business for the line and he wanted to grow it!

                                           

                                          It all went down hill, not long after. Coleco started focusing their attention on electronic

                                          games, which did require plastic, but not the boat loads like swimming pools and other

                                          recreational equipment did. The Salt businesses in Gville and Jtown switched to trucks, the

                                          Leader Herald switched to trucks, no more sawdust and wood shipped from Broadalbin,

                                          Hussman switched to trucks and the biggest nail in the coffin, Kargs stopped shipping hides

                                          by rail.  Even the Per-Diem business of storing 'foreign' cars on the back-line dried up.

                                           

                                          Basically, there was one business left and that was the fertilizer plant in Johnstown.  They wanted

                                          someone to run a train to them whenever needed and Walter wasn't interested.  I guess they were

                                          sending one car out a month.  That's all, not enough to keep the line open to Johnstown.  There

                                          was also talk of an industrial park in Johnstown, but by the time the line was scrapped in

                                          1990, it wasn't anything interested in rail.

                                           

                                          So, I get the feeling that Walt wanted to keep the line going.  He told me he would have done

                                          anything necessary to keep the line intact for a new operator.  

                                           

                                          Read what you want, I love the FJ&G and was very sad to see her close.  Unlike the Battenkill

                                          with a few dedicated employees sacrificing with no money to keep that line open, Walter

                                          wasn't going to do that!

                                           

                                          Oh, one more question I asked him....I had the nerve to ask him if he was hiding the Adirondack

                                          engines on the FJ&G to keep them from creditors.  He told me no,  he was keeping them there

                                          until they were painted.  Again, I would take that one back too...

                                           

                                          Gino

                                           

                                          From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
                                          Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:09 PM
                                          To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                          Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                           

                                           

                                          Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                          Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                          To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                          However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                          Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                          I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                          The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                          Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                          --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > Mark,
                                          >
                                          > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                          >
                                          > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has
                                          been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                          >
                                          > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s
                                          right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                          >
                                          > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through
                                          my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                          >
                                          > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent
                                          a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                          >
                                          > -Aaron
                                          >

                                           


                                        • Dicarlo, Gino
                                          I d love to have those engines around, but it is a business. Scrap value was good and I believe some parts were salvaged and used on NYSW equipment. There s
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment

                                            I'd love to have those engines around, but it is a business.  Scrap value was good and I believe

                                            some parts were salvaged and used on NYSW equipment.  There's a lot of stuff that remains out there,

                                            missing the scrap drives of the 40's and 50's and you wondered how that happened.  The 20 and 21

                                            weren't lucky enough.  It seems to me S2's were scrapped faster than other ALCO engines, am I

                                            correct?

                                             

                                            Gino

                                             

                                            From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                            Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:19 PM
                                            To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                             

                                             

                                            Thanks, Regardless if they were junkers they should have been saved. It wasn't like there was 20 of them laying around. Oh well!

                                             


                                            From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                                            To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:13:54 PM
                                            Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                             

                                            I did ask him that.  He said it was his intention to have those engines fixed, not scrapped  (They didn't

                                            get scrapped until the late 80's) , but they had more problems than he thought.  Heck, the 100 and

                                            103 came to Gloversville to work until those engines were fixed, but they ended up replacing them...

                                             

                                            Gino

                                             

                                            From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                            Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:11 PM
                                            To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                            Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                             

                                             

                                            Gino, Did you ever ask him why he scrapped the #20 and #21 when he left other equipment that was derelict alone? Dean

                                             


                                            From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                            To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                            Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:54:14 PM
                                            Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                             

                                            One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines!  I love the lines of

                                            the DO System.  Of course the FJ&G is my favorite.  I called Walter once to ask him about

                                            the DO System and he actually called me back.  I had a ton of questions, but I kept it quick.

                                            I asked him one question and to this day  I wish I could take it back.

                                             

                                            Listen to this John........ I asked Walter if the FJ&G, CACV and CNYK were neglected and left

                                            to die due to the acquisition of the NYSW.  Let me tell you, he didn't like that question and

                                            in hindsight I don't blame him.  He basically told me that the business dried up and that's

                                            that.  He also told me how they put money into the FJ&G after the NYSW purchase to

                                            improve the line.  1980 and 81 were big business for the line and he wanted to grow it!

                                             

                                            It all went down hill, not long after. Coleco started focusing their attention on electronic

                                            games, which did require plastic, but not the boat loads like swimming pools and other

                                            recreational equipment did. The Salt businesses in Gville and Jtown switched to trucks, the

                                            Leader Herald switched to trucks, no more sawdust and wood shipped from Broadalbin,

                                            Hussman switched to trucks and the biggest nail in the coffin, Kargs stopped shipping hides

                                            by rail.  Even the Per-Diem business of storing 'foreign' cars on the back-line dried up.

                                             

                                            Basically, there was one business left and that was the fertilizer plant in Johnstown.  They wanted

                                            someone to run a train to them whenever needed and Walter wasn't interested.  I guess they were

                                            sending one car out a month.  That's all, not enough to keep the line open to Johnstown.  There

                                            was also talk of an industrial park in Johnstown, but by the time the line was scrapped in

                                            1990, it wasn't anything interested in rail.

                                             

                                            So, I get the feeling that Walt wanted to keep the line going.  He told me he would have done

                                            anything necessary to keep the line intact for a new operator.  

                                             

                                            Read what you want, I love the FJ&G and was very sad to see her close.  Unlike the Battenkill

                                            with a few dedicated employees sacrificing with no money to keep that line open, Walter

                                            wasn't going to do that!

                                             

                                            Oh, one more question I asked him....I had the nerve to ask him if he was hiding the Adirondack

                                            engines on the FJ&G to keep them from creditors.  He told me no,  he was keeping them there

                                            until they were painted.  Again, I would take that one back too...

                                             

                                            Gino

                                             

                                            From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
                                            Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:09 PM
                                            To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                            Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                             

                                             

                                            Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                            Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                            To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                            However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                            Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                            I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                            The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                            Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                            --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:

                                            >
                                            > Mark,
                                            >
                                            > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                            >
                                            > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has
                                            been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                            >
                                            > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s
                                            right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                            >
                                            > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through
                                            my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                            >
                                            > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent
                                            a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                            >
                                            > -Aaron
                                            >

                                             

                                             

                                          • Dean Splittgerber
                                            How much you want to bet somewhere in Jersey in back of somebody s yard is the Long Hoods and Cabs.....Now that would be cool! ________________________________
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              How much you want to bet somewhere in Jersey in back of somebody's yard is the Long Hoods and Cabs.....Now that would be cool!


                                              From: Dean Splittgerber <deano12056@...>
                                              To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:18:35 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                               

                                              Thanks, Regardless if they were junkers they should have been saved. It wasn't like there was 20 of them laying around. Oh well!


                                              From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                              To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                              Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:13:54 PM
                                              Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                               

                                              I did ask him that.  He said it was his intention to have those engines fixed, not scrapped  (They didn't

                                              get scrapped until the late 80's) , but they had more problems than he thought.  Heck, the 100 and

                                              103 came to Gloversville to work until those engines were fixed, but they ended up replacing them...

                                               

                                              Gino

                                               

                                              From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                              Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:11 PM
                                              To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                              Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                               

                                               

                                              Gino, Did you ever ask him why he scrapped the #20 and #21 when he left other equipment that was derelict alone? Dean

                                               


                                              From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                              To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                              Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:54:14 PM
                                              Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                               

                                              One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines!  I love the lines of

                                              the DO System.  Of course the FJ&G is my favorite.  I called Walter once to ask him about

                                              the DO System and he actually called me back.  I had a ton of questions, but I kept it quick.

                                              I asked him one question and to this day  I wish I could take it back.

                                               

                                              Listen to this John........ I asked Walter if the FJ&G, CACV and CNYK were neglected and left

                                              to die due to the acquisition of the NYSW.  Let me tell you, he didn't like that question and

                                              in hindsight I don't blame him.  He basically told me that the business dried up and that's

                                              that.  He also told me how they put money into the FJ&G after the NYSW purchase to

                                              improve the line.  1980 and 81 were big business for the line and he wanted to grow it!

                                               

                                              It all went down hill, not long after. Coleco started focusing their attention on electronic

                                              games, which did require plastic, but not the boat loads like swimming pools and other

                                              recreational equipment did. The Salt businesses in Gville and Jtown switched to trucks, the

                                              Leader Herald switched to trucks, no more sawdust and wood shipped from Broadalbin,

                                              Hussman switched to trucks and the biggest nail in the coffin, Kargs stopped shipping hides

                                              by rail.  Even the Per-Diem business of storing 'foreign' cars on the back-line dried up.

                                               

                                              Basically, there was one business left and that was the fertilizer plant in Johnstown.  They wanted

                                              someone to run a train to them whenever needed and Walter wasn't interested.  I guess they were

                                              sending one car out a month.  That's all, not enough to keep the line open to Johnstown.  There

                                              was also talk of an industrial park in Johnstown, but by the time the line was scrapped in

                                              1990, it wasn't anything interested in rail.

                                               

                                              So, I get the feeling that Walt wanted to keep the line going.  He told me he would have done

                                              anything necessary to keep the line intact for a new operator.  

                                               

                                              Read what you want, I love the FJ&G and was very sad to see her close.  Unlike the Battenkill

                                              with a few dedicated employees sacrificing with no money to keep that line open, Walter

                                              wasn't going to do that!

                                               

                                              Oh, one more question I asked him....I had the nerve to ask him if he was hiding the Adirondack

                                              engines on the FJ&G to keep them from creditors.  He told me no,  he was keeping them there

                                              until they were painted.  Again, I would take that one back too...

                                               

                                              Gino

                                               

                                              From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
                                              Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:09 PM
                                              To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                              Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                               

                                               

                                              Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                              Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                              To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                              However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                              Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                              I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                              The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                              Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                              --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:

                                              >
                                              > Mark,
                                              >
                                              > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                              >
                                              > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has
                                              been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                              >
                                              > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s
                                              right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                              >
                                              > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through
                                              my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                              >
                                              > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent
                                              a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                              >
                                              > -Aaron
                                              >

                                               



                                            • Dean Splittgerber
                                              I can t fault them for doing it. Your correct business is business but it was a shame that they were cut up. Nothing we can do now. Deano
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I can't fault them for doing it. Your correct business is business but it was a shame that they were cut up. Nothing we can do now. Deano


                                                From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                                                To: "FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com" <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:21:57 PM
                                                Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                 

                                                I'd love to have those engines around, but it is a business.  Scrap value was good and I believe

                                                some parts were salvaged and used on NYSW equipment.  There's a lot of stuff that remains out there,

                                                missing the scrap drives of the 40's and 50's and you wondered how that happened.  The 20 and 21

                                                weren't lucky enough.  It seems to me S2's were scrapped faster than other ALCO engines, am I

                                                correct?

                                                 

                                                Gino

                                                 

                                                From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:19 PM
                                                To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                                Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Thanks, Regardless if they were junkers they should have been saved. It wasn't like there was 20 of them laying around. Oh well!

                                                 


                                                From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                                To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                                Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:13:54 PM
                                                Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                 

                                                I did ask him that.  He said it was his intention to have those engines fixed, not scrapped  (They didn't

                                                get scrapped until the late 80's) , but they had more problems than he thought.  Heck, the 100 and

                                                103 came to Gloversville to work until those engines were fixed, but they ended up replacing them...

                                                 

                                                Gino

                                                 

                                                From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:11 PM
                                                To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                                Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Gino, Did you ever ask him why he scrapped the #20 and #21 when he left other equipment that was derelict alone? Dean

                                                 


                                                From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                                To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                                Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:54:14 PM
                                                Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                 

                                                One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines!  I love the lines of

                                                the DO System.  Of course the FJ&G is my favorite.  I called Walter once to ask him about

                                                the DO System and he actually called me back.  I had a ton of questions, but I kept it quick.

                                                I asked him one question and to this day  I wish I could take it back.

                                                 

                                                Listen to this John........ I asked Walter if the FJ&G, CACV and CNYK were neglected and left

                                                to die due to the acquisition of the NYSW.  Let me tell you, he didn't like that question and

                                                in hindsight I don't blame him.  He basically told me that the business dried up and that's

                                                that.  He also told me how they put money into the FJ&G after the NYSW purchase to

                                                improve the line.  1980 and 81 were big business for the line and he wanted to grow it!

                                                 

                                                It all went down hill, not long after. Coleco started focusing their attention on electronic

                                                games, which did require plastic, but not the boat loads like swimming pools and other

                                                recreational equipment did. The Salt businesses in Gville and Jtown switched to trucks, the

                                                Leader Herald switched to trucks, no more sawdust and wood shipped from Broadalbin,

                                                Hussman switched to trucks and the biggest nail in the coffin, Kargs stopped shipping hides

                                                by rail.  Even the Per-Diem business of storing 'foreign' cars on the back-line dried up.

                                                 

                                                Basically, there was one business left and that was the fertilizer plant in Johnstown.  They wanted

                                                someone to run a train to them whenever needed and Walter wasn't interested.  I guess they were

                                                sending one car out a month.  That's all, not enough to keep the line open to Johnstown.  There

                                                was also talk of an industrial park in Johnstown, but by the time the line was scrapped in

                                                1990, it wasn't anything interested in rail.

                                                 

                                                So, I get the feeling that Walt wanted to keep the line going.  He told me he would have done

                                                anything necessary to keep the line intact for a new operator.  

                                                 

                                                Read what you want, I love the FJ&G and was very sad to see her close.  Unlike the Battenkill

                                                with a few dedicated employees sacrificing with no money to keep that line open, Walter

                                                wasn't going to do that!

                                                 

                                                Oh, one more question I asked him....I had the nerve to ask him if he was hiding the Adirondack

                                                engines on the FJ&G to keep them from creditors.  He told me no,  he was keeping them there

                                                until they were painted.  Again, I would take that one back too...

                                                 

                                                Gino

                                                 

                                                From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:09 PM
                                                To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                                Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                                Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                                To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                                However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                                Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                                I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                                The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                                Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                                --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:

                                                >
                                                > Mark,
                                                >
                                                > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                                >
                                                > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has
                                                been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                                >
                                                > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s
                                                right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                                >
                                                > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through
                                                my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                                >
                                                > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent
                                                a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                                >
                                                > -Aaron
                                                >

                                                 

                                                 


                                              • Dicarlo, Gino
                                                Have you seen any scrap pictures of the S-2s? I don t think there s a cab sitting around anywhere... Gino From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment

                                                  Have you seen any scrap pictures of the S-2s?  I don't think there's a cab sitting around anywhere...

                                                   

                                                  Gino

                                                   

                                                  From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:23 PM
                                                  To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  How much you want to bet somewhere in Jersey in back of somebody's yard is the Long Hoods and Cabs.....Now that would be cool!

                                                   


                                                  From: Dean Splittgerber <deano12056@...>
                                                  To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:18:35 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                   

                                                  Thanks, Regardless if they were junkers they should have been saved. It wasn't like there was 20 of them laying around. Oh well!

                                                   


                                                  From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                                  To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                                  Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:13:54 PM
                                                  Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                   

                                                  I did ask him that.  He said it was his intention to have those engines fixed, not scrapped  (They didn't

                                                  get scrapped until the late 80's) , but they had more problems than he thought.  Heck, the 100 and

                                                  103 came to Gloversville to work until those engines were fixed, but they ended up replacing them...

                                                   

                                                  Gino

                                                   

                                                  From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:11 PM
                                                  To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Gino, Did you ever ask him why he scrapped the #20 and #21 when he left other equipment that was derelict alone? Dean

                                                   


                                                  From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                                  To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                                  Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:54:14 PM
                                                  Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                   

                                                  One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines!  I love the lines of

                                                  the DO System.  Of course the FJ&G is my favorite.  I called Walter once to ask him about

                                                  the DO System and he actually called me back.  I had a ton of questions, but I kept it quick.

                                                  I asked him one question and to this day  I wish I could take it back.

                                                   

                                                  Listen to this John........ I asked Walter if the FJ&G, CACV and CNYK were neglected and left

                                                  to die due to the acquisition of the NYSW.  Let me tell you, he didn't like that question and

                                                  in hindsight I don't blame him.  He basically told me that the business dried up and that's

                                                  that.  He also told me how they put money into the FJ&G after the NYSW purchase to

                                                  improve the line.  1980 and 81 were big business for the line and he wanted to grow it!

                                                   

                                                  It all went down hill, not long after. Coleco started focusing their attention on electronic

                                                  games, which did require plastic, but not the boat loads like swimming pools and other

                                                  recreational equipment did. The Salt businesses in Gville and Jtown switched to trucks, the

                                                  Leader Herald switched to trucks, no more sawdust and wood shipped from Broadalbin,

                                                  Hussman switched to trucks and the biggest nail in the coffin, Kargs stopped shipping hides

                                                  by rail.  Even the Per-Diem business of storing 'foreign' cars on the back-line dried up.

                                                   

                                                  Basically, there was one business left and that was the fertilizer plant in Johnstown.  They wanted

                                                  someone to run a train to them whenever needed and Walter wasn't interested.  I guess they were

                                                  sending one car out a month.  That's all, not enough to keep the line open to Johnstown.  There

                                                  was also talk of an industrial park in Johnstown, but by the time the line was scrapped in

                                                  1990, it wasn't anything interested in rail.

                                                   

                                                  So, I get the feeling that Walt wanted to keep the line going.  He told me he would have done

                                                  anything necessary to keep the line intact for a new operator.  

                                                   

                                                  Read what you want, I love the FJ&G and was very sad to see her close.  Unlike the Battenkill

                                                  with a few dedicated employees sacrificing with no money to keep that line open, Walter

                                                  wasn't going to do that!

                                                   

                                                  Oh, one more question I asked him....I had the nerve to ask him if he was hiding the Adirondack

                                                  engines on the FJ&G to keep them from creditors.  He told me no,  he was keeping them there

                                                  until they were painted.  Again, I would take that one back too...

                                                   

                                                  Gino

                                                   

                                                  From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:09 PM
                                                  To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                                  Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                                  Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                                  To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                                  However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                                  Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                                  I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                                  The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                                  Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                                  --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:

                                                  >
                                                  > Mark,
                                                  >
                                                  > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                                  >
                                                  > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has
                                                  been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                                  >
                                                  > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s
                                                  right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                                  >
                                                  > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through
                                                  my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                                  >
                                                  > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent
                                                  a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                                  >
                                                  > -Aaron
                                                  >

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                • Gino's Railpage
                                                  Joe, I ve got a couple articles from the Post Standard talking about the OnTrack service. Basically, it didn t make money. It wasn t typical public
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Joe,
                                                     
                                                    I've got a couple articles from the Post Standard talking about the OnTrack service.  Basically,
                                                    it didn't make money.  It wasn't typical public transportation bleeding state and local money,
                                                    it was losing a ton of money.  I guess the commuter service never took off, but the shuttles they
                                                    put on for SU Basketball and Football was very successful.  Not enough to sustain the rest
                                                    of the operations.  Local officials debated that no more money should be spent on it.
                                                     
                                                    I think they sold most of those RDCs...
                                                     
                                                    Gino

                                                    On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 9:30 AM, joseph Klapkowski <riverlinejoe@...> wrote:
                                                     

                                                    What happened to ON Track?
                                                     Can anyone provide a brief history of the operation?


                                                    To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                                    From: akeller_1979@...
                                                    Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:11:56 -0700
                                                    Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                     
                                                    Mark,

                                                    I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.

                                                    People have criticized it for years.  My response back to those critics has been to suggest that they buy stock.  DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money.  Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets.  Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well. 

                                                    I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s right up until the end.  He told me that Walter made him a lot of money.  The equation was simple:  government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends.  All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far. 

                                                    The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through my three and a half years at Syracuse University.  They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them.  They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work.  So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it.  It worked for nearly a decade.

                                                    I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years.  They've spent a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run.  I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars.  Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.

                                                    -Aaron




                                                    Windows 7: I wanted more reliable, now it's more reliable. Wow!




                                                    --
                                                    http://fjgrr.org
                                                    http://ginosrailpage.com
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                                                  • joseph Klapkowski
                                                    I would have to look around, but I remember the #20 in Little Ferry and if I can find the right book, I ll bet I could nail down the date I last saw her To:
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Oct 28, 2009
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I would have to look around, but I remember the #20 in Little Ferry and if I can find the right book, I'll bet I could nail down the date I last saw her
                                                       

                                                      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                                      From: Gino.Dicarlo@...
                                                      Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:46:34 -0500
                                                      Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                       

                                                      Have you seen any scrap pictures of the S-2s?  I don't think there's a cab sitting around anywhere...

                                                       

                                                      Gino

                                                       

                                                      From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:23 PM
                                                      To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                                      Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      How much you want to bet somewhere in Jersey in back of somebody's yard is the Long Hoods and Cabs.....Now that would be cool!

                                                       


                                                      From: Dean Splittgerber <deano12056@yahoo. com>
                                                      To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                                      Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:18:35 PM
                                                      Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                       

                                                      Thanks, Regardless if they were junkers they should have been saved. It wasn't like there was 20 of them laying around. Oh well!

                                                       


                                                      From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                                      To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                                      Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 8:13:54 PM
                                                      Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                       

                                                      I did ask him that.  He said it was his intention to have those engines fixed, not scrapped  (They didn't

                                                      get scrapped until the late 80's) , but they had more problems than he thought.  Heck, the 100 and

                                                      103 came to Gloversville to work until those engines were fixed, but they ended up replacing them...

                                                       

                                                      Gino

                                                       

                                                      From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Dean Splittgerber
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 8:11 PM
                                                      To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                                      Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Gino, Did you ever ask him why he scrapped the #20 and #21 when he left other equipment that was derelict alone? Dean

                                                       


                                                      From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com>
                                                      To: "FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com" <FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com>
                                                      Sent: Wed, October 28, 2009 7:54:14 PM
                                                      Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                       

                                                      One thing I know about Walter is, he controlled some great shortlines!  I love the lines of

                                                      the DO System.  Of course the FJ&G is my favorite.  I called Walter once to ask him about

                                                      the DO System and he actually called me back.  I had a ton of questions, but I kept it quick.

                                                      I asked him one question and to this day  I wish I could take it back.

                                                       

                                                      Listen to this John........ I asked Walter if the FJ&G, CACV and CNYK were neglected and left

                                                      to die due to the acquisition of the NYSW.  Let me tell you, he didn't like that question and

                                                      in hindsight I don't blame him.  He basically told me that the business dried up and that's

                                                      that.  He also told me how they put money into the FJ&G after the NYSW purchase to

                                                      improve the line.  1980 and 81 were big business for the line and he wanted to grow it!

                                                       

                                                      It all went down hill, not long after. Coleco started focusing their attention on electronic

                                                      games, which did require plastic, but not the boat loads like swimming pools and other

                                                      recreational equipment did. The Salt businesses in Gville and Jtown switched to trucks, the

                                                      Leader Herald switched to trucks, no more sawdust and wood shipped from Broadalbin,

                                                      Hussman switched to trucks and the biggest nail in the coffin, Kargs stopped shipping hides

                                                      by rail.  Even the Per-Diem business of storing 'foreign' cars on the back-line dried up.

                                                       

                                                      Basically, there was one business left and that was the fertilizer plant in Johnstown.  They wanted

                                                      someone to run a train to them whenever needed and Walter wasn't interested.  I guess they were

                                                      sending one car out a month.  That's all, not enough to keep the line open to Johnstown.  There

                                                      was also talk of an industrial park in Johnstown, but by the time the line was scrapped in

                                                      1990, it wasn't anything interested in rail.

                                                       

                                                      So, I get the feeling that Walt wanted to keep the line going.  He told me he would have done

                                                      anything necessary to keep the line intact for a new operator.  

                                                       

                                                      Read what you want, I love the FJ&G and was very sad to see her close.  Unlike the Battenkill

                                                      with a few dedicated employees sacrificing with no money to keep that line open, Walter

                                                      wasn't going to do that!

                                                       

                                                      Oh, one more question I asked him....I had the nerve to ask him if he was hiding the Adirondack

                                                      engines on the FJ&G to keep them from creditors.  He told me no,  he was keeping them there

                                                      until they were painted.  Again, I would take that one back too...

                                                       

                                                      Gino

                                                       

                                                      From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of John
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:09 PM
                                                      To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                                                      Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: DO-Line/CACV #2

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Those are great points Aaron. To clarify my earlier post, I will agree Walt was a good business man with respect to shareholder value and employees. Its a real testament to hear Mark saying he has worked for the same company 33 years in the Northeast. So that says something very positive about DO-NYSW.

                                                      Also, Walt did take a bunch of tired, down and out assets (FJG, CNY, CACV, NYSW, DLW branches) and do wonderful things with them. The stack deal was an incredible piece of business while it lasted and its not his fault it went away.

                                                      To your next point, in our economic system, maximizing shareholder value is the name of the game. That is the ultimate measure so to speak.

                                                      However, there is more to the big picture then maximizing shareholder value. Pan Am leadership is criticized frequently for how they do business but in reality they are just tough business guys in a tough business climate trying to squeeze every penny with minimal investment. In other words, maximize shareholder value (in this case a small group of private investors). If Pan Am ran the railroad different maybe they could move more cars but that does not mean they would make more money.

                                                      Back to DO-NYSW, my points were, that from a taxpayer and railfan perspective, Walt seemed to have a short attention span for stuff. I hear the arguement on spend instead of study but there is a happy medium on that one, especially when taxpayer dollars are involved. But hey, Walt did not steal the money, elected officials gave it to him.

                                                      I lived in Gloversville when the FJG shutdown and I might be wrong but I think the railroad had more life in it. I think Walt got the NYSW thing going and said "I don't have time to waste my resources on the FJG" In other words, his human capital could get better returns on the NYSW. That's business---but it doesn't mean I have to like it. And the eventual death of the FJG was probably inevitable looking at the economy of Fulton County today. And of course no one else stepped in to buy it when Walt pulled out. That newsprint quote was a good response by Walt but the real question is what prompted the LH to start bringing in Newsprint by truck. Wasn't Coleco, Hussmann, city salt, Fairbanks Feed and that fertilizer business all viable shippers when the FJG shutdown? I thought the NYSW continued to haul plastic pellets by truck from Fonda to Coleco after the line shutdown. I remember seeing the NYSW bulk transfer trucks in Gloversville.

                                                      The Battenkill is a great example of plugging along and not giving up, granted that private shareholder value might be in the toilet. The Vermont Railway is probably the best example in my opinion of the shortline model I like.

                                                      Just to make it clear, I am a big fan of the NYSW and really hope they can get even more traffic flowing. That Campbell Hall deal sounds great. By all accounts, if you look at the history of NYSW they should be long gone based on the point they were at BEFORE DO purchased them. And I am also glad somebody still runs trains on the old Erie Delaware Division.

                                                      --- In FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com, Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@ ...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Mark,
                                                      >
                                                      > I will second your opinions on DO's way of business.
                                                      >
                                                      > People have criticized it for years. My response back to those critics has been to suggest that they buy stock. DO paid frequent dividends (probably every year) after recycling our tax money. Any one of us could easily have recycled it right back into our own pockets. Similarly, the state, which invests its own money, could have purchased a block of the stock as well.
                                                      >
                                                      > I personally know a DO investor who held Company stock from the 1960s right up until the end. He told me that Walter made him a lot of money. The equation was simple: government money spurred economic growth which spurred higher dividends. All of it appears to be legal and those who have challenged it have not gotten very far.
                                                      >
                                                      > The people who ran OnTrack in Syracuse were acquaintances of mine through my three and a half years at Syracuse University. They explained to me that Walter preferred to try things rather than to study them. They said that for the amount of money the company and/or the state would normally spend on consultants --- oftentimes who use a bunch of money and then say "it won't work" --- Walter preferred to try it and see if it would work. So, rather than some think tank eating up a quarter-million dollars or even more to "study" light rail in Syracuse, he spent money to try it. It worked for nearly a decade.
                                                      >
                                                      > I recently lived in Kansas City, Mo., for nearly two years. They've spent a boatload of money and held numerous elections studying and voting on a light rail system... and nary a train has run. I would bet the spending on that issue has gone well over a million dollars, if not into the multi-millions of dollars. Walter would have just spent the million bucks testing it in real life, not arguing about it and debating it to death.
                                                      >
                                                      > -Aaron
                                                      >

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       




                                                      New Windows 7: Find the right PC for you. Learn more.
                                                    • Aaron Keller
                                                      Lots of discussion tonight; very good. Re: the NYS&W. The FJ&G saw substantial investment even after the NYS&W was running. The annual reports detail this.
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Oct 29, 2009
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Lots of discussion tonight; very good.

                                                        Re:  the NYS&W.  The FJ&G saw substantial investment even after the NYS&W was running.  The annual reports detail this.

                                                        Re:  the economic status of the FJ&G.  We also need to remember that Karg stopped shipping.  Paul Larner can jump in here, but keep in mind that the Reagan administration deregulated the trucking industry in the 80s and that opened the door for many smaller businesses to start trucking and henceforth to stop moving products by rail.  That was the death knell for many lines in the 80s.

                                                        Re:  the FJ&G shutting down.  Ron Crowd told me that he examined the FJ&G and determined very quickly that the line would not stay afloat.  If Ron couldn't make it work, as frugal as he was... then, I'm sorry, but no one could have made it work.  The Batten Kill survives on more than just the hard work of a few dedicated employees.  It also survives because it has a steady customer that orders between three and 15 cars a week.  The FJ&G couldn't have survived on one or two cars every two months.

                                                        Re:  the plastics continuing on to Coleco.  Gino is correct; not enough traffic there to warrant a 15-mile railroad. 

                                                        -Aaron
                                                        __,

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