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RE: [FJGRailroad] North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path

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  • Erik Denny
    I d agree with all this stimulous stuff, but here s a slightly different look at it (and I have no affiliation here): There have been some grants and such
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 12, 2009
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      I'd agree with all this stimulous stuff, but here's a slightly different
      look at it (and I have no affiliation here):

      There have been some grants and such along the way, but after a few false
      starts dating back to before the 1980 Olympics, the current incarnation of
      the group has basically been funding expansion mostly on revenue and
      donations. Would I rather see some money benefit something like the
      Albany Port or the Ogdensburg, or name your shortline? You betcha!

      But if the plan was to complete the line in another 10 years is moved up,
      wouldn't there be a benefit to the region on a tourist (which is the
      predominant "industry" IN the Adirondacks) basis?

      Same thing with the UHRR. If Amtrak could get enough items straightened
      out, how many people would take an overnight train from NY to appear in
      Lake Placid or North Creek for a weekend of skiing?

      I think $700 weekend packages would change some locals tunes.

      I grew up outside the blue line, and while I love visiting, I don't envy
      those that do live there for all the issues there are.

      ...erik

      On Wed, 12 Aug 2009, Dicarlo, Gino wrote:

      > You said it Paul! I don't want the Adirondack Scenic to go anywhere,
      > but it can't be at the public's expense to achieve their goals. There's
      > got to be someway, other than the 'magic' stimulus money. I see another
      > article related to this that has a US Senator promising 12 million
      > dollars to get the ASRR running between Utica and Lake Placid. How
      > about throwing some funds to a revenue-short-line railroad that could
      > use some ties to keep the business going? Just my thought.
      >
      > p.s. I'd tell the people yelling for the snowmobile/bike trail route to
      > get their money somewhere else! I think there are plenty of State
      > trails in the Adirondacks now.....
      >
      > Gino
      >
    • Paul Larner
      The thing about Federal money vs. state funding is that state wide you have a better chance of restraining over exuberance whereas with federal dollars, while
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 12, 2009
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        The thing about Federal money vs. state funding is that state wide you have a better chance of restraining over exuberance whereas with federal dollars, while you don't have to vote for them. if they are authorized, they are going to be given away whether you like it or not and therefore should endeavor to get your share (or a little more).  Just the same, many of us are upset over earmarks and pork barrel spending, so we do our part with our votes.  Ron Paul was noted for that type of thinking.  He would say he never voted for earmarks or pork but when it passed (as he knew it would), he was nevertheless right there at the front of the line to get what he could for his district.

        We were riding the train that derailed at Hoel Pond; just came across the photos this week.
         
        PKL

        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        From: Gino.Dicarlo@...
        Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:55:25 -0500
        Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path

         

        You said it Paul!  I don't want the Adirondack Scenic to go anywhere, but it can't be at the public's expense to achieve their goals.  There's got to be someway, other than the 'magic' stimulus money.  I see another article related to this that has a US Senator promising 12 million dollars to get the ASRR running between Utica and Lake Placid.  How about throwing some funds to a revenue-short- line railroad that could use some ties to keep the business going?  Just my thought.

         

        p.s. I'd tell the people yelling for the snowmobile/bike trail route to get their money somewhere else!  I think there are plenty of State trails in the Adirondacks now.....

         

        Gino

         

        From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul Larner
        Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:03 AM
        To: FJGRailroad
        Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path

         

         

        Just what the taxpayers of NYState need, another handout (on top of the 2 billion plus deficit).  It seems to me the tourist economies of Lake Placid and Saranac Lake are together vigorous enough to support a tourist rail operation if done with personal investment and labor rather than handouts.  Certainly the impetus to make the road attractive and profitable would be rooted in the personal loss of wealth should it fail.  This is in my mind a situation analogous in so many ways with the Conway Scenic environment of forty years ago.
         
        Conway Scenic had private investment and an attitude from the investors that supported and encouraged volunteer assistance by a hugely loyal and dedicated group of rail enthusiasts.  The reward was the opportunity to actually participate in the operation and maintenance of a real railroad.  Those men (and women), with the exception of one principal investor, were experienced working and retired railroad men who were invaluable in the road's success.  That railroad has always been a friend to the railfan.
         
        A business plan for a tourist operation in the SL/LP region, based on individual investment and initiative with a heavy dose of volunteerism could be successful.  North Conway Scenic is much more of a package than just a ride for the tourist dollar.  To me therein lies the key to success.
         
        If, as one quoted in the LP newspaper article stated, the trains are running empty, then the problem is deeper than can be met with an influx of state money.  You need more than a train ride; you need the ambiance of a "real" railroad experience.
         
        Sorry, but I have an inherent distaste for anyone or group looking for a taxpayer handout, without a proven public benefit or return, especially when such a handout is largely a means of self enrichment.
         
        Are there enough of us with the proper experience close enough to the region to provide a revolving, but dependable cadre of volunteer labor.  It takes heart to make a tourist road successful but most importantly it takes an established draw, which the region has.  History has demonstrated a railroad alone is generally not sufficient to draw enough riders to pay the bills.  If this was so East Broad Top would be rolling in cash; the Battenkill operation would have thrived; and I am sure we can all think of others.  SL/LP has the crowd; what it needs is heart and soul and personal risk to make the railroad profitable (and a good business plan).  Then you can get a loan from a real bank.
         
        If not; well, sometimes you just have to close the door and move on to the next opportunity.
         
        Just a thought.
         
        PKL
         

        To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
        From: fjgrailroad@ gmail.com
        Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:05:23 -0400
        Subject: [FJGRailroad] North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path

         

        North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path
        By CHRIS KNIGHT, Enterprise Senior Staff Writer POSTED: August 12, 2009
        Email: "North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path"
        LAKE PLACID - Bill Branson and Ed Kennedy of the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society came to the North Elba Town Board meeting Tuesday night to try and learn why the town has refused to support an extension of the Adirondack Scenic Railroad.
        They got their answer.
        During a 40-minute discussion, town leaders said they felt the existing railroad service has had little to no economic impact on Lake Placid and that the railroad corridor between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could be better used as a recreational path for bicycles and snowmobiles.
        "It's fair to say there are mixed feelings about the railroad in Lake Placid," said town Supervisor Roby Politi. "I think the people feel it's a nice attraction, but a financial boondoggle."
        Town Councilman Bob Miller said the train doesn't bring anyone to Lake Placid.
        "When I see the train go by, I don't see people on the train," he said. "I have to wonder if it would not be a better use of that corridor to have it as a recreational pathway for people that live here and for visitors."
        "I have nothing against the railroad," added Councilman Jay Rand. "I'm just not quite convinced that for us, economically, it's going to have that much of an impact."
        Town residents have voiced much stronger support for a bike path, according to Councilman Jack Favro.
        "The bike path is very important to us," he said. "We believe, economically, the bike path is the way to go."
        Branson, president of the railroad group's board of directors, and Kennedy, a board member, had asked for the meeting to discuss ways to foster a better partnership with the town.
        The Adirondack Railway Preservation Society, which administers the Adirondack Scenic Railroad, is trying to build support for an extension of its tourist trains, and to possibly provide freight service.
        Currently, the railroad only operates between Utica and Old Forge and between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid. The group is looking for as much as $13 million in state and federal funding to restore end to end operations between Utica and Lake Placid, which Branson said would bring more tourists to the area.
        "There are people very interested in making a train ride up here," he said.
        Kennedy said they could have service running between Tupper Lake and Lake Placid within the next year. If all goes according to plan, the entire line could be operational by 2012.
        Both men said their plans have been well received by political leaders and residents in the other towns along the route, but not the town of North Elba.
        "Is there a specific problem you folks have with the railroad in your town?" Kennedy asked.
        Councilman Chuck Damp said the mixed feelings about the railroad may stem from a 1998 meeting where the idea of a bike path running along the railroad tracks was first discussed.
        "Representatives of your group were very emphatically against sharing the corridor," Damp said. "That, in essence, formed camps, and it was quite clear we weren't going to get anywhere with the current leadership."
        Branson said the organization has changed over the last five years.
        "We're trying to morph to make this outfit a successful part of the tourist trade and make a proper business out of it," Branson said. "We've been morphing our structure, our board members, our volunteers and our employees to a different way of thinking."
        Kennedy asked why the railroad and a bike path couldn't co-exist.
        "There's plenty of room to create a bike path there," he said. "If we could have both the bike path and the railroad side-by-side, then it's a win-win for everybody."
        But town officials said the costs of engineering a bike path next to the railroad tracks were "formidable," even with $2 million in grant funding. That's why the board shelved the project indefinitely last year.
        "To go around the wetlands cost us a lot more money," Favro said. "But if we were up on the railroad bed, it would be a different story."
        Town officials also said removing the railroad tracks would extend the snowmobiling season on the corridor, which is owned by the state Department of Transportation. To slide over the tracks without hitting them, snowmobiles need a lot more snow.
        But Branson argued that it would take the town years to try and get the railroad tracks removed because they're part of a historic corridor.
        Politi had talked with a DOT representative recently and learned the state has no plans to remove the tracks.
        As the meeting drew to a close, Branson and Kennedy offered to support the town's efforts to get more funding for a bike path if the town would endorse the extension of the railroad.
        Town leaders made no commitments but said they were open to continuing a dialogue.
        "We are interested, provided you get what you want and we get what we want," Politi said.
        ---
        Contact Chris Knight at 891-2600 ext. 24 or cknight@adirondackd ailyenterprise. com.


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      • Paul Larner
        Erik you are right. There are more worthy rail projects in the state, whether passenger corrider improvements or essential shortline services. Not easy to
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 12, 2009
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          Erik you are right.  There are more worthy rail projects in the state, whether passenger corrider improvements or essential shortline services.  Not easy to create a market inside the blue line where the industries which formerly supported the railroads have vanished.
           
          Unfortunately for the passenger railroad model, tourists are no longer inclined to spend for a rail trip they can drive in less than six hours and have the convenience of the automobile after they aarrive for their week or longer stay.  Those days existed before good roads.  I remember long trips in a crowded car to a family camp on the Upper Saranac in the fifties; the road today is like a turnpike in comparison.  A tavern in Indian Lake was our break point.  Even then the road proved more expeditious than the rail trip from Fonda to Utica to Saranac Inn.  Couldn't go to the drive-in if we took the train.
           
          I maintain the solution is in capitalizing on the existing tourist base within its' focus SL/LP, and possibly for an extended day roundtrip, to Faust and their new depot.  Whats the status of the hotel business in the Tupper Lake area?  How many rooms occupancy rate and time parameters?  On the Utica end my impression has been that things are working okay, if not very well. 
           
          PKL

          To: fjgrailroad@yahoogroups.com
          From: pklarner@...
          Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 01:52:55 -0400
          Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path

           
          The thing about Federal money vs. state funding is that state wide you have a better chance of restraining over exuberance whereas with federal dollars, while you don't have to vote for them. if they are authorized, they are going to be given away whether you like it or not and therefore should endeavor to get your share (or a little more).  Just the same, many of us are upset over earmarks and pork barrel spending, so we do our part with our votes.  Ron Paul was noted for that type of thinking.  He would say he never voted for earmarks or pork but when it passed (as he knew it would), he was nevertheless right there at the front of the line to get what he could for his district.

          We were riding the train that derailed at Hoel Pond; just came across the photos this week.
           
          PKL

          To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
          From: Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com
          Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 23:55:25 -0500
          Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path

           

          You said it Paul!  I don't want the Adirondack Scenic to go anywhere, but it can't be at the public's expense to achieve their goals.  There's got to be someway, other than the 'magic' stimulus money.  I see another article related to this that has a US Senator promising 12 million dollars to get the ASRR running between Utica and Lake Placid.  How about throwing some funds to a revenue-short- line railroad that could use some ties to keep the business going?  Just my thought.

           

          p.s. I'd tell the people yelling for the snowmobile/bike trail route to get their money somewhere else!  I think there are plenty of State trails in the Adirondacks now.....

           

          Gino

           

          From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul Larner
          Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2009 12:03 AM
          To: FJGRailroad
          Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path

           

           

          Just what the taxpayers of NYState need, another handout (on top of the 2 billion plus deficit).  It seems to me the tourist economies of Lake Placid and Saranac Lake are together vigorous enough to support a tourist rail operation if done with personal investment and labor rather than handouts.  Certainly the impetus to make the road attractive and profitable would be rooted in the personal loss of wealth should it fail.  This is in my mind a situation analogous in so many ways with the Conway Scenic environment of forty years ago.
           
          Conway Scenic had private investment and an attitude from the investors that supported and encouraged volunteer assistance by a hugely loyal and dedicated group of rail enthusiasts.  The reward was the opportunity to actually participate in the operation and maintenance of a real railroad.  Those men (and women), with the exception of one principal investor, were experienced working and retired railroad men who were invaluable in the road's success.  That railroad has always been a friend to the railfan.
           
          A business plan for a tourist operation in the SL/LP region, based on individual investment and initiative with a heavy dose of volunteerism could be successful.  North Conway Scenic is much more of a package than just a ride for the tourist dollar.  To me therein lies the key to success.
           
          If, as one quoted in the LP newspaper article stated, the trains are running empty, then the problem is deeper than can be met with an influx of state money.  You need more than a train ride; you need the ambiance of a "real" railroad experience.
           
          Sorry, but I have an inherent distaste for anyone or group looking for a taxpayer handout, without a proven public benefit or return, especially when such a handout is largely a means of self enrichment.
           
          Are there enough of us with the proper experience close enough to the region to provide a revolving, but dependable cadre of volunteer labor.  It takes heart to make a tourist road successful but most importantly it takes an established draw, which the region has.  History has demonstrated a railroad alone is generally not sufficient to draw enough riders to pay the bills.  If this was so East Broad Top would be rolling in cash; the Battenkill operation would have thrived; and I am sure we can all think of others.  SL/LP has the crowd; what it needs is heart and soul and personal risk to make the railroad profitable (and a good business plan).  Then you can get a loan from a real bank.
           
          If not; well, sometimes you just have to close the door and move on to the next opportunity.
           
          Just a thought.
           
          PKL
           

          To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
          From: fjgrailroad@ gmail.com
          Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 18:05:23 -0400
          Subject: [FJGRailroad] North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path

           

          North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path
          By CHRIS KNIGHT, Enterprise Senior Staff Writer POSTED: August 12, 2009
          Email: "North Elba board says railroad would be better used as recreation path"
          LAKE PLACID - Bill Branson and Ed Kennedy of the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society came to the North Elba Town Board meeting Tuesday night to try and learn why the town has refused to support an extension of the Adirondack Scenic Railroad.
          They got their answer.
          During a 40-minute discussion, town leaders said they felt the existing railroad service has had little to no economic impact on Lake Placid and that the railroad corridor between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could be better used as a recreational path for bicycles and snowmobiles.
          "It's fair to say there are mixed feelings about the railroad in Lake Placid," said town Supervisor Roby Politi. "I think the people feel it's a nice attraction, but a financial boondoggle."
          Town Councilman Bob Miller said the train doesn't bring anyone to Lake Placid.
          "When I see the train go by, I don't see people on the train," he said. "I have to wonder if it would not be a better use of that corridor to have it as a recreational pathway for people that live here and for visitors."
          "I have nothing against the railroad," added Councilman Jay Rand. "I'm just not quite convinced that for us, economically, it's going to have that much of an impact."
          Town residents have voiced much stronger support for a bike path, according to Councilman Jack Favro.
          "The bike path is very important to us," he said. "We believe, economically, the bike path is the way to go."
          Branson, president of the railroad group's board of directors, and Kennedy, a board member, had asked for the meeting to discuss ways to foster a better partnership with the town.
          The Adirondack Railway Preservation Society, which administers the Adirondack Scenic Railroad, is trying to build support for an extension of its tourist trains, and to possibly provide freight service.
          Currently, the railroad only operates between Utica and Old Forge and between Saranac Lake and Lake Placid. The group is looking for as much as $13 million in state and federal funding to restore end to end operations between Utica and Lake Placid, which Branson said would bring more tourists to the area.
          "There are people very interested in making a train ride up here," he said.
          Kennedy said they could have service running between Tupper Lake and Lake Placid within the next year. If all goes according to plan, the entire line could be operational by 2012.
          Both men said their plans have been well received by political leaders and residents in the other towns along the route, but not the town of North Elba.
          "Is there a specific problem you folks have with the railroad in your town?" Kennedy asked.
          Councilman Chuck Damp said the mixed feelings about the railroad may stem from a 1998 meeting where the idea of a bike path running along the railroad tracks was first discussed.
          "Representatives of your group were very emphatically against sharing the corridor," Damp said. "That, in essence, formed camps, and it was quite clear we weren't going to get anywhere with the current leadership."
          Branson said the organization has changed over the last five years.
          "We're trying to morph to make this outfit a successful part of the tourist trade and make a proper business out of it," Branson said. "We've been morphing our structure, our board members, our volunteers and our employees to a different way of thinking."
          Kennedy asked why the railroad and a bike path couldn't co-exist.
          "There's plenty of room to create a bike path there," he said. "If we could have both the bike path and the railroad side-by-side, then it's a win-win for everybody."
          But town officials said the costs of engineering a bike path next to the railroad tracks were "formidable, " even with $2 million in grant funding. That's why the board shelved the project indefinitely last year.
          "To go around the wetlands cost us a lot more money," Favro said. "But if we were up on the railroad bed, it would be a different story."
          Town officials also said removing the railroad tracks would extend the snowmobiling season on the corridor, which is owned by the state Department of Transportation. To slide over the tracks without hitting them, snowmobiles need a lot more snow.
          But Branson argued that it would take the town years to try and get the railroad tracks removed because they're part of a historic corridor.
          Politi had talked with a DOT representative recently and learned the state has no plans to remove the tracks.
          As the meeting drew to a close, Branson and Kennedy offered to support the town's efforts to get more funding for a bike path if the town would endorse the extension of the railroad.
          Town leaders made no commitments but said they were open to continuing a dialogue.
          "We are interested, provided you get what you want and we get what we want," Politi said.
          ---
          Contact Chris Knight at 891-2600 ext. 24 or cknight@adirondackd ailyenterprise. com.


          --
          http://fjgrr. org
          http://ginosrailpag e.com
          http://ginostrolley page.com
          http://ginosmusicse rvice.com

           


          Get free photo software from Windows Live Click here.




          Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®. Try it now.



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