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RE: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment

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  • Paul Larner
    I see the misunderstanding. The rails were not all removed before the flood arrived; that is correct. However the rails were removed from the north to the
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 10, 2009
      I see the misunderstanding.  The rails were not all removed before the flood arrived; that is correct. However the rails were removed from the north to the south.  All rails were required to be removed by March 23, an amazing week and two days after the last regular train ran.  An exension of thirty days was granted but was obviously not enough.  In ten days the wrecking crews had progressed south of the park but not yet to Cranberry Creek.  By April 8 the water had risen too quickly trapping a couple FJ&G flat cars on the wrong side of the lake.  These were hauled back by one of the gas cars because the steam locomotive fireboxes were too low not to be affected by the water.  More than a mile of track remained under the water in 1930.  This rail is located at the lowest portions of the Vlaie.  As the water rose the rate slowed as the area to be filled expanded rapidly this gave the wreckers "time" to complete removal of the bridges and the rail south ofthe inundated stretch.  Somewhere I believe there was an oportunity to go in and remove that rail; can't put my hand on it now.  I believe it was eventually all removed the next year.  On the other hand the estimated value of the lost salvage was stated to be between $1100 and $1500, hardly worth a purposeful lowering of the reservoir.
       
      The FJ&G retained rail from the junction toward the area that later became Mayfield Lake.  This is the piece where the old trolleys and passenger cars were taken for burning.  I have heard but not yet verified that the rails continued to the lake - perhaps to facilitate ice harvesting and transport.  This is before the Mayfield dam was completed. 
       
      PKL


      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      From: fjgbus@...
      Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:45:32 +0000
      Subject: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment


      ...tracks were left in for many years after abandonment.

      This is an interesting point we've never discussed. I've always assumed that the Northville line was taken up from Northville back to Broadalbin Jct. We've all seen the photos of the crew out in the water and assumed this was the case. What you are saying is that the company had to clear the line that would be under water after 1930 immediately and the northern part would be cleared later. Do you know the date when the north end of the line was torn up?
      Saul




      Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.
    • Aaron Keller
      I too have heard that all the rail is gone. Back in around 1993 the water was lowered substantially so as to allow for some type of work at Conklingville. The
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 10, 2009
        I too have heard that all the rail is gone.

        Back in around 1993 the water was lowered substantially so as to allow for some type of work at Conklingville.  The lowering of the water allowed many of us, myself included, to walk out on the reservoir using the old roads.  It is amazing how much junk is down there.  The roads all still exist as do the foundations.  It was possible to pick out where someone once had a well; or where someone had a sidewalk; the lattice brick work on someone's porch was visible; as were the pieces of china and glass that were just left behind by families that didn't care to have them any longer.  Of course all that I could find was broken by the demolition. 

        There are hundreds if not thousands of dead tree stumps that remain underwater on the north end of the Vly.

        What also interested me is that the original channels still exist for the streams that fed the Sacandaga; when the water went down, the old streams went right back into the confines of their original banks.

        For some reason I did not take many pictures of the low water.

        -Aaron

      • Dicarlo, Gino
        Bob Bedford told me that rail remained under the lake for a few years after the abandonment. It eventually was salvaged when the water level dropped
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 10, 2009
          Bob Bedford told me that rail remained under the lake for a few years after
          the abandonment.  It eventually was salvaged when the water  level dropped
          dramatically due to a drought.  I can't remember for sure, but it
          was either 1932 or 1933 when the remaining rail was grabbed.
           
          Gino


          From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Larner
          Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 4:05 PM
          To: FJGRailroad
          Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment

          I see the misunderstanding.  The rails were not all removed before the flood arrived; that is correct. However the rails were removed from the north to the south.  All rails were required to be removed by March 23, an amazing week and two days after the last regular train ran.  An exension of thirty days was granted but was obviously not enough.  In ten days the wrecking crews had progressed south of the park but not yet to Cranberry Creek.  By April 8 the water had risen too quickly trapping a couple FJ&G flat cars on the wrong side of the lake.  These were hauled back by one of the gas cars because the steam locomotive fireboxes were too low not to be affected by the water.  More than a mile of track remained under the water in 1930.  This rail is located at the lowest portions of the Vlaie.  As the water rose the rate slowed as the area to be filled expanded rapidly this gave the wreckers "time" to complete removal of the bridges and the rail south ofthe inundated stretch.  Somewhere I believe there was an oportunity to go in and remove that rail; can't put my hand on it now.  I believe it was eventually all removed the next year.  On the other hand the estimated value of the lost salvage was stated to be between $1100 and $1500, hardly worth a purposeful lowering of the reservoir.
           
          The FJ&G retained rail from the junction toward the area that later became Mayfield Lake.  This is the piece where the old trolleys and passenger cars were taken for burning.  I have heard but not yet verified that the rails continued to the lake - perhaps to facilitate ice harvesting and transport.  This is before the Mayfield dam was completed. 
           
          PKL



          To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
          From: fjgbus@comcast. net
          Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:45:32 +0000
          Subject: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment


          ...tracks were left in for many years after abandonment.

          This is an interesting point we've never discussed. I've always assumed that the Northville line was taken up from Northville back to Broadalbin Jct. We've all seen the photos of the crew out in the water and assumed this was the case. What you are saying is that the company had to clear the line that would be under water after 1930 immediately and the northern part would be cleared later. Do you know the date when the north end of the line was torn up?
          Saul




          Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.

        • Dicarlo, Gino
          I walked around an area south of Cranberry Creek in 1985 when the water was REAL low. All I remember was a stone bridge (that is usually covered by water)
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 10, 2009
            I walked around an area south of Cranberry Creek in 1985 when the water was REAL low.  All I remember was
            a stone bridge (that is usually covered by water) that had an original creek-bed running under it.  I thought it was
            pretty neat.  At that time, I totally was in the wrong place looking for where the tracks came out of the water. 
             
            I wish I knew the right spot, I would have explored some more!
             
            Gino


            From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Keller
            Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 5:25 PM
            To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment

            I too have heard that all the rail is gone.

            Back in around 1993 the water was lowered substantially so as to allow for some type of work at Conklingville.  The lowering of the water allowed many of us, myself included, to walk out on the reservoir using the old roads.  It is amazing how much junk is down there.  The roads all still exist as do the foundations.  It was possible to pick out where someone once had a well; or where someone had a sidewalk; the lattice brick work on someone's porch was visible; as were the pieces of china and glass that were just left behind by families that didn't care to have them any longer.  Of course all that I could find was broken by the demolition. 

            There are hundreds if not thousands of dead tree stumps that remain underwater on the north end of the Vly.

            What also interested me is that the original channels still exist for the streams that fed the Sacandaga; when the water went down, the old streams went right back into the confines of their original banks.

            For some reason I did not take many pictures of the low water.

            -Aaron

          • Paul Larner
            I went through the records and while I share the information that the rails were taken out some time after, I couldn t find a positive confirmation. I wasn t
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 10, 2009
              I went through the records and while I share the information that the rails were taken out some time after, I couldn't find a positive confirmation.  I wasn't sure if it was later in 1930 after the water normally went down or a few years later in a dnother drought period as is suggested.  No results through 1933.  If they are there, it is most probable the area between Robert's Creek and Jackson Creek.  This several mile stretch was below 740 feet above sea level.  The reservoir reached 745 feet in mid April.  Times were challenging in those years with many in the cities at subsistence levels and less so it might have been profitable to salvage whatever and whenever possible.  The answer will turn up.
               
              Do we have any divers in our group that would enjoy a trip to the bottom?
               
              PKL

              To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              From: Gino.Dicarlo@...
              Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:52:02 -0500
              Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment

              Bob Bedford told me that rail remained under the lake for a few years after
              the abandonment.  It eventually was salvaged when the water  level dropped
              dramatically due to a drought.  I can't remember for sure, but it
              was either 1932 or 1933 when the remaining rail was grabbed.
               
              Gino


              From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul Larner
              Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 4:05 PM
              To: FJGRailroad
              Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment

              I see the misunderstanding.  The rails were not all removed before the flood arrived; that is correct. However the rails were removed from the north to the south.  All rails were required to be removed by March 23, an amazing week and two days after the last regular train ran.  An exension of thirty days was granted but was obviously not enough.  In ten days the wrecking crews had progressed south of the park but not yet to Cranberry Creek.  By April 8 the water had risen too quickly trapping a couple FJ&G flat cars on the wrong side of the lake.  These were hauled back by one of the gas cars because the steam locomotive fireboxes were too low not to be affected by the water.  More than a mile of track remained under the water in 1930.  This rail is located at the lowest portions of the Vlaie.  As the water rose the rate slowed as the area to be filled expanded rapidly this gave the wreckers "time" to complete removal of the bridges and the rail south ofthe inundated stretch.  Somewhere I believe there was an oportunity to go in and remove that rail; can't put my hand on it now.  I believe it was eventually all removed the next year.  On the other hand the estimated value of the lost salvage was stated to be between $1100 and $1500, hardly worth a purposeful lowering of the reservoir.
               
              The FJ&G retained rail from the junction toward the area that later became Mayfield Lake.  This is the piece where the old trolleys and passenger cars were taken for burning.  I have heard but not yet verified that the rails continued to the lake - perhaps to facilitate ice harvesting and transport.  This is before the Mayfield dam was completed. 
               
              PKL



              To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
              From: fjgbus@comcast. net
              Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:45:32 +0000
              Subject: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment


              ...tracks were left in for many years after abandonment.

              This is an interesting point we've never discussed. I've always assumed that the Northville line was taken up from Northville back to Broadalbin Jct. We've all seen the photos of the crew out in the water and assumed this was the case. What you are saying is that the company had to clear the line that would be under water after 1930 immediately and the northern part would be cleared later. Do you know the date when the north end of the line was torn up?
              Saul





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            • Dicarlo, Gino
              Paul, I know people who have scuba dived the area around the Mayfield Curve. No rails there. They did find roadbed and said the line was easily traceable!
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 10, 2009
                Paul,
                 
                I know people who have scuba dived the area around the Mayfield Curve.  No rails there.  They
                did find roadbed and said the line was easily traceable!
                 
                Gino


                From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Larner
                Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:10 PM
                To: FJGRailroad
                Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment

                I went through the records and while I share the information that the rails were taken out some time after, I couldn't find a positive confirmation.  I wasn't sure if it was later in 1930 after the water normally went down or a few years later in a dnother drought period as is suggested.  No results through 1933.  If they are there, it is most probable the area between Robert's Creek and Jackson Creek.  This several mile stretch was below 740 feet above sea level.  The reservoir reached 745 feet in mid April.  Times were challenging in those years with many in the cities at subsistence levels and less so it might have been profitable to salvage whatever and whenever possible.  The answer will turn up.
                 
                Do we have any divers in our group that would enjoy a trip to the bottom?
                 
                PKL


                To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                From: Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.com
                Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:52:02 -0500
                Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment

                Bob Bedford told me that rail remained under the lake for a few years after
                the abandonment.  It eventually was salvaged when the water  level dropped
                dramatically due to a drought.  I can't remember for sure, but it
                was either 1932 or 1933 when the remaining rail was grabbed.
                 
                Gino


                From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul Larner
                Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 4:05 PM
                To: FJGRailroad
                Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment

                I see the misunderstanding.  The rails were not all removed before the flood arrived; that is correct. However the rails were removed from the north to the south.  All rails were required to be removed by March 23, an amazing week and two days after the last regular train ran.  An exension of thirty days was granted but was obviously not enough.  In ten days the wrecking crews had progressed south of the park but not yet to Cranberry Creek.  By April 8 the water had risen too quickly trapping a couple FJ&G flat cars on the wrong side of the lake.  These were hauled back by one of the gas cars because the steam locomotive fireboxes were too low not to be affected by the water.  More than a mile of track remained under the water in 1930.  This rail is located at the lowest portions of the Vlaie.  As the water rose the rate slowed as the area to be filled expanded rapidly this gave the wreckers "time" to complete removal of the bridges and the rail south ofthe inundated stretch.  Somewhere I believe there was an oportunity to go in and remove that rail; can't put my hand on it now.  I believe it was eventually all removed the next year.  On the other hand the estimated value of the lost salvage was stated to be between $1100 and $1500, hardly worth a purposeful lowering of the reservoir.
                 
                The FJ&G retained rail from the junction toward the area that later became Mayfield Lake.  This is the piece where the old trolleys and passenger cars were taken for burning.  I have heard but not yet verified that the rails continued to the lake - perhaps to facilitate ice harvesting and transport.  This is before the Mayfield dam was completed. 
                 
                PKL



                To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                From: fjgbus@comcast. net
                Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 14:45:32 +0000
                Subject: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment


                ...tracks were left in for many years after abandonment.

                This is an interesting point we've never discussed. I've always assumed that the Northville line was taken up from Northville back to Broadalbin Jct. We've all seen the photos of the crew out in the water and assumed this was the case. What you are saying is that the company had to clear the line that would be under water after 1930 immediately and the northern part would be cleared later. Do you know the date when the north end of the line was torn up?
                Saul





                Windows Live™: Keep your life in sync. Check it out.




                Hotmail® is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. Find out more.

              • Aaron Keller
                The lake is pretty murky most of the year. The roadbed near Cranberry Creek got really eroded so it s not as easy to trace in that section. Would anyone like
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 10, 2009
                  The lake is pretty murky most of the year.  The roadbed near Cranberry Creek got really eroded so it's not as easy to trace in that section. 

                  Would anyone like to see the few pictures I have available of what's on the bottom?

                  -Aaron

                • slamora1@nycap.rr.com
                  AARON YES PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STEVE LAMORA
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 10, 2009
                    AARON
                    YES PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                    STEVE LAMORA



                    Aaron Keller <akeller_1979@...> wrote:
                    > The lake is pretty murky most of the year. The roadbed near Cranberry Creek got really eroded so it's not as easy to trace in that section.
                    >
                    > Would anyone like to see the few pictures I have available of what's on the bottom?
                    >
                    > -Aaron
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Dicarlo, Gino
                    I d like to see them! Gino ________________________________ From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Keller
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 10, 2009
                      I'd like to see them!
                       
                      Gino


                      From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Keller
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 6:31 PM
                      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Northville Div. Abandonment

                      The lake is pretty murky most of the year.  The roadbed near Cranberry Creek got really eroded so it's not as easy to trace in that section. 

                      Would anyone like to see the few pictures I have available of what's on the bottom?

                      -Aaron

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