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RE: [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill Question

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  • joseph Klapkowski
    Off topic but there is probably enough interest on this list. the building in Fonda next to the jail came down. Do not know if it was a fire or what. Also the
    Message 1 of 12 , Nov 4, 2007
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      Off topic but there is probably enough interest on this list. the building in Fonda next to the jail came down. Do not know if it was a fire or what. Also the Tannery down the street from the current Johnstown fire station has been completely demolished............just an empty lot with gravel now.......


      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      From: Gino.Dicarlo@...
      Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:55:56 -0600
      Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill Question

      Paul,
       
      I think you've got the tracks into Independent Leather correct.  Did you know that the path that says River Street is the old
      Trolley Line coming off of South Main Street?  Those A & B buildings are old and I'm sure they've been there a while.  Of
      course I don't know what they were or are today. 
       
      Gino


      From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FJGRailroad @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Paul Charland
      Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 7:59 AM
      To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill Question

      Hi All,

      I'm about to start Independent Leather and thought it would be a good
      time to ask about the Beaver Street Mill. I've uploaded a Google Earth
      shot of the mill, outlining the mill in solid yellow and what I think
      are the positions of the track in broken black lines and the twin coal
      towers in broken yellow. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure
      if the siding along side of the building might have gone into the
      building or if the siding serving the coal towers might have extended to
      the bit of a cove in the main building as it looks deep enough to have
      held a car.

      http://finance. groups.yahoo. com/group/ FJGRailroad/ files/FJ% 26G%20MSTS/ BeaverStMillQues tion.jpg

      Also, have no idea about the two other large structures in the shot
      labeled A? and B?, B? looks old enough to have been around in the late
      '50s, not sure about A? though. Did either of these have rail service?

      Paul :-)




      Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now!
    • Paul Larner
      Hello Paul, THe more I looked at your diagram the sooner I recognized that your track location is a ways south of where it should be. Where it is as inserted
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 4, 2007
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        Hello Paul,
         
        THe more I looked at your diagram the sooner I recognized that your track location is a ways south of where it should be.  Where it is as inserted it would be on the hillside south of the trolley yard.  On the east end of the trolley yard (Spanish American Leather) the only opening in the fence was where the track went through.  Thus the roadway you see in the aerial photo is the location of the track as it nears the Continental Mill property.  Once it hits the location of the gate the track will follow the base of the hillside till it moved to the north to join the former east bound main track and thence skirt the edge of the former carbarn.  I've attached here a couple map inserts that will assist in seeing what was there and where.  I also think the location of the silos is too far west and away from the building.
         
        I worked for the mills the three summers I was in college.  In July when the mill shut down some us kids were given the opportunity to work cleaning the boiler and stack with boiler house workers.  Of course we did the shoveling.
         
        I also put in a couple inserts to show where both the Lebenheim and Starr mills were located with reference to the tracks.  Also Are inserts of the Hill street area.
         
        Hope this clarifies things a bit.
         
        PKL




        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        From: p.charlie@...
        Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 07:58:58 -0500
        Subject: [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill Question

        Hi All,

        I'm about to start Independent Leather and thought it would be a good
        time to ask about the Beaver Street Mill. I've uploaded a Google Earth
        shot of the mill, outlining the mill in solid yellow and what I think
        are the positions of the track in broken black lines and the twin coal
        towers in broken yellow. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not sure
        if the siding along side of the building might have gone into the
        building or if the siding serving the coal towers might have extended to
        the bit of a cove in the main building as it looks deep enough to have
        held a car.

        http://finance. groups.yahoo. com/group/ FJGRailroad/ files/FJ% 26G%20MSTS/ BeaverStMillQues tion.jpg

        Also, have no idea about the two other large structures in the shot
        labeled A? and B?, B? looks old enough to have been around in the late
        '50s, not sure about A? though. Did either of these have rail service?

        Paul :-)



        Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks & Treats for You! Get 'em!
      • Paul Charland
        Hi Paul, I think we are talking about the same location, I ve uploaded another Google Earth shot of the same location I posted earlier, but zoomed out so you
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 4, 2007
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          Hi Paul,

          I think we are talking about the same location, I've uploaded another
          Google Earth shot of the same location I posted earlier, but zoomed out
          so you can get a better idea where it's location is.

          http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/FJGRailroad/files/FJ%26G%20MSTS/BeaverStMillQuestion2.jpg

          Orange track to the left is the mainline and to the right is the old
          electric line that the bottom would have ended up heading to Parkhurst
          and the top, well, pasted the carbarn, wye, and then to Beaver Street.

          Spanish American Mills... can you give me an idea where that was? I
          have a shot or two taken from the fence near the entrance but there's
          nothing in the background that would give me an idea where this was.
          Was Spanish American the old carbarn?

          The map showing Lebenheim and Sons is great, I see it in the background
          of the gas works shots but wasn't 100% sure exactly where it was. The
          Google shots show a patch of bare earth where the map shows the plant was.

          Foolish question but... is "Continental Mill" and "Beaver Street Mill"
          the same?

          Did receive your off list e-mail, do you receive my off list e-mail? I
          remember there was a filter problem years ago, just wondering if that
          ever got worked out.

          Paul :-)

          Paul Larner wrote:
          > Hello Paul,
          >
          > THe more I looked at your diagram the sooner I recognized that your
          > track location is a ways south of where it should be. Where it is as
          > inserted it would be on the hillside south of the trolley yard. On
          > the east end of the trolley yard (Spanish American Leather) the only
          > opening in the fence was where the track went through. Thus the
          > roadway you see in the aerial photo is the location of the track as
          > it nears the Continental Mill property. Once it hits the location of
          > the gate the track will follow the base of the hillside till it moved
          > to the north to join the former east bound main track and thence
          > skirt the edge of the former carbarn. I've attached here a couple
          > map inserts that will assist in seeing what was there and where. I
          > also think the location of the silos is too far west and away from
          > the building.
          >
          > I worked for the mills the three summers I was in college. In July
          > when the mill shut down some us kids were given the opportunity to
          > work cleaning the boiler and stack with boiler house workers. Of
          > course we did the shoveling.
          >
          > I also put in a couple inserts to show where both the Lebenheim and
          > Starr mills were located with reference to the tracks. Also Are
          > inserts of the Hill street area.
          >
          > Hope this clarifies things a bit.
          >
          > PKL
        • Paul Larner
          Yes, we are talking about the same locations. The further out map does give a broader reference and we can see more of the detail. The Spanish American Mill
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 4, 2007
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            Yes, we are talking about the same locations.  The further out map does give a broader reference and we can see more of the detail.  The Spanish American Mill was in the old car barn which seems to be visible either because it's still there when these shots were taken or it is the floor and foundation following the fire.  The mill on Beaver Street was the Gloversville Continental Mill which took raw cotton in and shipped out finished cloth.  While I was there they made velour and piled fabric to be used as boot linings, coat linings and bathrobes and other things I'm sure.  It was interesting because you knew what the colors for the next season would be.
             
            I suppose it doesn't really matter to knit pick the curvature and exact placement of the track, except at the buildings.  When you bring you track away from the main track toward the mill  follow more closely to the hill in a arc to the side of the former car barn.  There follow in a tangent the side of the car, then continue the arc in the same direction reversing the curve as you near the hill.
             
            In Dave Nestle's book on pages 48 and 49 you will find photos that will show some of this area you developing.  There is also a good picture of the buildings you were seeking on River street.  In the photo of the two trolleys sideswiped at the foot of p. 49  the car on the left "Gloversville Accommodation" is on the track that went to the mill, behind the photographer.  It was also the track off which the tracks into the car barn came.   The car on the right is on the east leg of the wye.  On p. 48 you see the connection of the track to the mill and the main track.  Only the middle track to the car barn remained until the barn burned a few years ago.
             
            I have photos taken in the thirties with few trees on Burr Hill.  It amazing how fast nature reclaims itself.
             
            I believe I'm receiving everything now???
             
            Paul




            To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            From: p.charlie@...
            Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 17:07:06 -0500
            Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill Question

            Hi Paul,

            I think we are talking about the same location, I've uploaded another
            Google Earth shot of the same location I posted earlier, but zoomed out
            so you can get a better idea where it's location is.

            http://finance. groups.yahoo. com/group/ FJGRailroad/ files/FJ% 26G%20MSTS/ BeaverStMillQues tion2.jpg

            Orange track to the left is the mainline and to the right is the old
            electric line that the bottom would have ended up heading to Parkhurst
            and the top, well, pasted the carbarn, wye, and then to Beaver Street.

            Spanish American Mills... can you give me an idea where that was? I
            have a shot or two taken from the fence near the entrance but there's
            nothing in the background that would give me an idea where this was.
            Was Spanish American the old carbarn?

            The map showing Lebenheim and Sons is great, I see it in the background
            of the gas works shots but wasn't 100% sure exactly where it was. The
            Google shots show a patch of bare earth where the map shows the plant was.

            Foolish question but... is "Continental Mill" and "Beaver Street Mill"
            the same?

            Did receive your off list e-mail, do you receive my off list e-mail? I
            remember there was a filter problem years ago, just wondering if that
            ever got worked out.

            Paul :-)

            Paul Larner wrote:
            > Hello Paul,
            >
            > THe more I looked at your diagram the sooner I recognized that your
            > track location is a ways south of where it should be. Where it is as
            > inserted it would be on the hillside south of the trolley yard. On
            > the east end of the trolley yard (Spanish American Leather) the only
            > opening in the fence was where the track went through. Thus the
            > roadway you see in the aerial photo is the location of the track as
            > it nears the Continental Mill property. Once it hits the location of
            > the gate the track will follow the base of the hillside till it moved
            > to the north to join the former east bound main track and thence
            > skirt the edge of the former carbarn. I've attached here a couple
            > map inserts that will assist in seeing what was there and where. I
            > also think the location of the silos is too far west and away from
            > the building.
            >
            > I worked for the mills the three summers I was in college. In July
            > when the mill shut down some us kids were given the opportunity to
            > work cleaning the boiler and stack with boiler house workers. Of
            > course we did the shoveling.
            >
            > I also put in a couple inserts to show where both the Lebenheim and
            > Starr mills were located with reference to the tracks. Also Are
            > inserts of the Hill street area.
            >
            > Hope this clarifies things a bit.
            >
            > PKL



            Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today!
          • Paul Charland
            Hi Paul, Now, if I only had a copy of Dave Nestle s book! Knowing what I m seeing will make it a lot easier to draw. I have to use 1995 black and white
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 4, 2007
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              Hi Paul,

              Now, if I only had a copy of Dave Nestle's book!

              Knowing what I'm seeing will make it a lot easier to draw. I have to
              use 1995 black and white satellite shots in one program to place markers
              that I can then bring into MS Train-sim and use to lay track or roads
              with. The problem with these satellite shots are it's not obvious at
              times what if track and when is shadow. I missed this area completely
              but now I know where to look for what it should be easy to correct.

              Thanks for your help and everyone else's too.

              Paul :-)

              Paul Larner wrote:
              > Yes, we are talking about the same locations. The further out map
              > does give a broader reference and we can see more of the detail. The
              > Spanish American Mill was in the old car barn which seems to be
              > visible either because it's still there when these shots were taken
              > or it is the floor and foundation following the fire. The mill on
              > Beaver Street was the Gloversville Continental Mill which took raw
              > cotton in and shipped out finished cloth. While I was there they
              > made velour and piled fabric to be used as boot linings, coat linings
              > and bathrobes and other things I'm sure. It was interesting because
              > you knew what the colors for the next season would be.
              >
              > I suppose it doesn't really matter to knit pick the curvature and
              > exact placement of the track, except at the buildings. When you
              > bring you track away from the main track toward the mill follow more
              > closely to the hill in a arc to the side of the former car barn.
              > There follow in a tangent the side of the car, then continue the arc
              > in the same direction reversing the curve as you near the hill.
              >
              > In Dave Nestle's book on pages 48 and 49 you will find photos that
              > will show some of this area you developing. There is also a good
              > picture of the buildings you were seeking on River street. In the
              > photo of the two trolleys sideswiped at the foot of p. 49 the car on
              > the left "Gloversville Accommodation" is on the track that went to
              > the mill, behind the photographer. It was also the track off which
              > the tracks into the car barn came. The car on the right is on the
              > east leg of the wye. On p. 48 you see the connection of the track to
              > the mill and the main track. Only the middle track to the car barn
              > remained until the barn burned a few years ago.
              >
              > I have photos taken in the thirties with few trees on Burr Hill. It
              > amazing how fast nature reclaims itself.
              >
              > I believe I'm receiving everything now???
              >
              > Paul
            • Paul Larner
              Golly I wish I had known you didn t have Steam and Trolley Days last July. I let a couple go at the meeting, I believe to the museum because no one that
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 4, 2007
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                Golly I wish I had known you didn't have "Steam and Trolley Days" last July.  I let a couple go at the meeting, I believe to the museum because no one that attended needed one.  How about Bill Gordon's later reprint of Dave's work titled "Trolleys Down the Mohawk Valley" ?  That has all the same material.  These turn up regularly on eBay and may be one or the other on there now, if not in the bid area below in the store area.  Search "Fonda" under Transportation-Railroadiana.
                 
                Randy Decker's Arcadia series book on the FJ&G has some photos of interest too.  This one is still in print I believe.
                 
                Paul





                To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                From: p.charlie@...
                Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:35:26 -0500
                Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill Question

                Hi Paul,

                Now, if I only had a copy of Dave Nestle's book!

                Knowing what I'm seeing will make it a lot easier to draw. I have to
                use 1995 black and white satellite shots in one program to place markers
                that I can then bring into MS Train-sim and use to lay track or roads
                with. The problem with these satellite shots are it's not obvious at
                times what if track and when is shadow. I missed this area completely
                but now I know where to look for what it should be easy to correct.

                Thanks for your help and everyone else's too.

                Paul :-)

                Paul Larner wrote:
                > Yes, we are talking about the same locations. The further out map
                > does give a broader reference and we can see more of the detail. The
                > Spanish American Mill was in the old car barn which seems to be
                > visible either because it's still there when these shots were taken
                > or it is the floor and foundation following the fire. The mill on
                > Beaver Street was the Gloversville Continental Mill which took raw
                > cotton in and shipped out finished cloth. While I was there they
                > made velour and piled fabric to be used as boot linings, coat linings
                > and bathrobes and other things I'm sure. It was interesting because
                > you knew what the colors for the next season would be.
                >
                > I suppose it doesn't really matter to knit pick the curvature and
                > exact placement of the track, except at the buildings. When you
                > bring you track away from the main track toward the mill follow more
                > closely to the hill in a arc to the side of the former car barn.
                > There follow in a tangent the side of the car, then continue the arc
                > in the same direction reversing the curve as you near the hill.
                >
                > In Dave Nestle's book on pages 48 and 49 you will find photos that
                > will show some of this area you developing. There is also a good
                > picture of the buildings you were seeking on River street. In the
                > photo of the two trolleys sideswiped at the foot of p. 49 the car on
                > the left "Gloversville Accommodation" is on the track that went to
                > the mill, behind the photographer. It was also the track off which
                > the tracks into the car barn came. The car on the right is on the
                > east leg of the wye. On p. 48 you see the connection of the track to
                > the mill and the main track. Only the middle track to the car barn
                > remained until the barn burned a few years ago.
                >
                > I have photos taken in the thirties with few trees on Burr Hill. It
                > amazing how fast nature reclaims itself.
                >
                > I believe I'm receiving everything now???
                >
                > Paul



                Boo! Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! Try now!
              • Paul Charland
                Hi Paul, I have Randy s book a foot and a half away but neither Dave s or Bill s book. I ll Google both and see what turns up. Paul :-)
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 4, 2007
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                  Hi Paul,

                  I have Randy's book a foot and a half away but neither Dave's or Bill's
                  book. I'll Google both and see what turns up.

                  Paul :-)

                  Paul Larner wrote:
                  > Golly I wish I had known you didn't have "Steam and Trolley Days"
                  > last July. I let a couple go at the meeting, I believe to the museum
                  > because no one that attended needed one. How about Bill Gordon's
                  > later reprint of Dave's work titled "Trolleys Down the Mohawk Valley"
                  > ? That has all the same material. These turn up regularly on eBay
                  > and may be one or the other on there now, if not in the bid area
                  > below in the store area. Search "Fonda" under
                  > Transportation-Railroadiana.
                  >
                  > Randy Decker's Arcadia series book on the FJ&G has some photos of
                  > interest too. This one is still in print I believe.
                  >
                  > Paul
                • Gerald Snyder
                  Actually it was the jail itself and the sheriff s residence and they were taken down. The jail had begun to collapse (large sections of the brick facing had
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 5, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Actually it was the jail itself and the sheriff's
                    residence and they were taken down. The jail had
                    begun to collapse (large sections of the brick facing
                    had fallen away) and the entire building was in bad
                    shape from neglect. Last year's floods didn't help
                    either. They were in the process of doing asbestos
                    abatement prior to a planned demolition by the county
                    itself next year but when it started to come down by
                    itself they had to bring in the professionals and have
                    it taken down NOW. I have pictures throughout the
                    demolition if anyone is interested. They saved all of
                    the scrap metal which is in a huge pile there now -
                    the county is going to dispose of it themselves and
                    use the proceeds to defer some of the demolition cost.
                    The solid masonry is being crushed to use for fill of
                    the site which will be graded, covered over with dirt,
                    and seeded to create a park area pending possible
                    future development.
                    Jerry
                    --- joseph Klapkowski <riverlinejoe@...>
                    wrote:

                    >
                    > Off topic but there is probably enough interest on
                    > this list. the building in Fonda next to the jail
                    > came down. Do not know if it was a fire or what.
                    > Also the Tannery down the street from the current
                    > Johnstown fire station has been completely
                    > demolished............just an empty lot with gravel
                    > now.......
                    >
                    >
                    > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.comFrom:
                    > Gino.Dicarlo@...: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:55:56
                    > -0600Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill
                    > Question
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Paul,
                    >
                    > I think you've got the tracks into Independent
                    > Leather correct. Did you know that the path that
                    > says River Street is the old
                    > Trolley Line coming off of South Main Street? Those
                    > A & B buildings are old and I'm sure they've been
                    > there a while. Of
                    > course I don't know what they were or are today.
                    >
                    > Gino
                    >
                    >
                    > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    > Paul CharlandSent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 7:59
                    > AMTo: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.comSubject:
                    > [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill Question
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi All,I'm about to start Independent Leather and
                    > thought it would be a good time to ask about the
                    > Beaver Street Mill. I've uploaded a Google Earth
                    > shot of the mill, outlining the mill in solid yellow
                    > and what I think are the positions of the track in
                    > broken black lines and the twin coal towers in
                    > broken yellow. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm
                    > not sure if the siding along side of the building
                    > might have gone into the building or if the siding
                    > serving the coal towers might have extended to the
                    > bit of a cove in the main building as it looks deep
                    > enough to have held a
                    >
                    car.http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/FJGRailroad/files/FJ%26G%20MSTS/BeaverStMillQuestion.jpgAlso,
                    > have no idea about the two other large structures in
                    > the shot labeled A? and B?, B? looks old enough to
                    > have been around in the late '50s, not sure about A?
                    > though. Did either of these have rail service?Paul
                    > :-)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    _________________________________________________________________
                    > Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook –
                    > together at last.  Get it now.
                    >
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                  • Paul Larner
                    Jerry thanks for the info. PKL To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.comFrom: handyman756@yahoo.comDate: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:36:37 -0800Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Beaver
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 6, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Jerry thanks for the info.
                       
                      PKL



                      To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      From: handyman756@...
                      Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 20:36:37 -0800
                      Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill Question

                      Actually it was the jail itself and the sheriff's
                      residence and they were taken down. The jail had
                      begun to collapse (large sections of the brick facing
                      had fallen away) and the entire building was in bad
                      shape from neglect. Last year's floods didn't help
                      either. They were in the process of doing asbestos
                      abatement prior to a planned demolition by the county
                      itself next year but when it started to come down by
                      itself they had to bring in the professionals and have
                      it taken down NOW. I have pictures throughout the
                      demolition if anyone is interested. They saved all of
                      the scrap metal which is in a huge pile there now -
                      the county is going to dispose of it themselves and
                      use the proceeds to defer some of the demolition cost.
                      The solid masonry is being crushed to use for fill of
                      the site which will be graded, covered over with dirt,
                      and seeded to create a park area pending possible
                      future development.
                      Jerry
                      --- joseph Klapkowski <riverlinejoe@ hotmail.com>
                      wrote:

                      >
                      > Off topic but there is probably enough interest on
                      > this list. the building in Fonda next to the jail
                      > came down. Do not know if it was a fire or what.
                      > Also the Tannery down the street from the current
                      > Johnstown fire station has been completely
                      > demolished.. ......... .just an empty lot with gravel
                      > now.......
                      >
                      >
                      > To: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. comFrom:
                      > Gino.Dicarlo@ qg.comDate: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 10:55:56
                      > -0600Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill
                      > Question
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Paul,
                      >
                      > I think you've got the tracks into Independent
                      > Leather correct. Did you know that the path that
                      > says River Street is the old
                      > Trolley Line coming off of South Main Street? Those
                      > A & B buildings are old and I'm sure they've been
                      > there a while. Of
                      > course I don't know what they were or are today.
                      >
                      > Gino
                      >
                      >
                      > From: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com
                      > [mailto:FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of
                      > Paul CharlandSent: Sunday, November 04, 2007 7:59
                      > AMTo: FJGRailroad@ yahoogroups. comSubject:
                      > [FJGRailroad] Beaver Street Mill Question
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi All,I'm about to start Independent Leather and
                      > thought it would be a good time to ask about the
                      > Beaver Street Mill. I've uploaded a Google Earth
                      > shot of the mill, outlining the mill in solid yellow
                      > and what I think are the positions of the track in
                      > broken black lines and the twin coal towers in
                      > broken yellow. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm
                      > not sure if the siding along side of the building
                      > might have gone into the building or if the siding
                      > serving the coal towers might have extended to the
                      > bit of a cove in the main building as it looks deep
                      > enough to have held a
                      >
                      car.http://finance. groups.yahoo. com/group/ FJGRailroad/ files/FJ% 26G%20MSTS/ BeaverStMillQues tion.jpgAlso,
                      > have no idea about the two other large structures in
                      > the shot labeled A? and B?, B? looks old enough to
                      > have been around in the late '50s, not sure about A?
                      > though. Did either of these have rail service?Paul
                      > :-)
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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