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Brill Bullet Design

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  • Saul Kalbfeld
    At our NCR Division 8 meeting last night our speaker talked about the traction lines around Philly and he mentioned that the bullet cars in service there and
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 17, 2006
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      At our NCR Division 8 meeting last night our speaker talked about the traction lines around Philly and he mentioned that the bullet cars in service there and on the FJ&G were aerodynamically designed at the University of Michigan using their new large wind tunnel. They must have had some kind of mockup, or just a model. Anyone know more about this. The Philly cars ran in regular service until a few years ago.
      Regards,
      Saul 
    • Dicarlo, Gino
      I can t believe there was a wind-tunnel used for testing back in 1931. I didn t think that form of testing came around until the 1950 s. I m guessing the
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 17, 2006
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        Message
        I can't believe there was a wind-tunnel used for testing back in 1931.  I didn't think that form of testing came
        around until the 1950's.  I'm guessing the automakers were using this?  Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic
        coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?
         
        Gino
        -----Original Message-----
        From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saul Kalbfeld
        Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 3:48 PM
        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design

        At our NCR Division 8 meeting last night our speaker talked about the traction lines around Philly and he mentioned that the bullet cars in service there and on the FJ&G were aerodynamically designed at the University of Michigan using their new large wind tunnel. They must have had some kind of mockup, or just a model. Anyone know more about this. The Philly cars ran in regular service until a few years ago.
        Regards,
        Saul 
      • Paul Charland
        OMG! The first wind tunnel (as we know them) was built in 1871! Sticking a scale model of something on a four foot string and whipping it around your head to
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 17, 2006
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          OMG! The first wind tunnel (as we know them) was built in 1871!
          Sticking a scale model of something on a four foot string and whipping
          it around your head to check wind resistance has been out there since
          the 1700s!

          http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/WindTunnel/history.html

          Paul :-)

          Dicarlo, Gino wrote:
          > I can't believe there was a wind-tunnel used for testing back in 1931.
          > I didn't think that form of testing came
          > around until the 1950's. I'm guessing the automakers were using this?
          > Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic
          > coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?
          >
          > Gino
        • Dicarlo, Gino
          I m not talking about sticking your hand out the car window to test resistance, I m talking about in the sense today where large fans are employed and the
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 17, 2006
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            I'm not talking about sticking your hand out the car window to test
            resistance, I'm talking about in the sense today where large fans are
            employed and the object is kept stationary.

            Gino

            -----Original Message-----
            From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of Paul Charland
            Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:10 PM
            To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design


            OMG! The first wind tunnel (as we know them) was built in 1871!
            Sticking a scale model of something on a four foot string and whipping
            it around your head to check wind resistance has been out there since
            the 1700s!

            http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/WindTunnel/history.html

            Paul :-)

            Dicarlo, Gino wrote:
            > I can't believe there was a wind-tunnel used for testing back in 1931.

            > I didn't think that form of testing came around until the 1950's. I'm

            > guessing the automakers were using this? Jeesh, was there anything
            > aerodynamic coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?
            >
            > Gino


            Visit The FJ&G Store At http://www.cafepress.com/fjgrr
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          • Gerald Snyder
            Wind tunnel testing goes back a ways. The Wright brothers built their own wind tunnel in 1901 and tested several hundred models of wings to get a workable
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 17, 2006
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              Wind tunnel testing goes back a ways. The Wright
              brothers built their own wind tunnel in 1901 and
              tested several hundred models of wings to get a
              workable design for the Flyer. Their wind was
              supplied by an old fan powered by a one-cylinder gas
              engine also used to run some of the tools in their
              bicycle shop. They also designed their own
              instrumentation to measure the lift being generated by
              the various models.
              Jerry
              --- "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...> wrote:

              > I can't believe there was a wind-tunnel used for
              > testing back in 1931.
              > I didn't think that form of testing came
              > around until the 1950's. I'm guessing the
              > automakers were using this?
              > Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic
              > coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?
              >
              > Gino
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              > Saul Kalbfeld
              > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 3:48 PM
              > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design
              >
              >
              > At our NCR Division 8 meeting last night our
              > speaker talked
              > about the traction lines around Philly and he
              > mentioned that the bullet
              > cars in service there and on the FJ&G were
              > aerodynamically designed at
              > the University of Michigan using their new large
              > wind tunnel. They must
              > have had some kind of mockup, or just a model.
              > Anyone know more about
              > this. The Philly cars ran in regular service until a
              > few years ago.
              > Regards,
              > Saul
              >
              >
              > Visit The FJ&G Store At
              > http://www.cafepress.com/fjgrr
              > Visit Pete Seftons Lost Landmark Page
              > http://www.lostlandmarks.org
              > Visit Charles P. Woolever's Existing Railroad
              > Stations in New
              > York State at
              > http://ny.existingstations.com/
              >
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            • Malcolm Horton
              MessageThe Wright brothers built a wind tunnel while they were developing the first heavier than air airplane. They were the first to do so and were first to
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 17, 2006
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                Message
                The Wright brothers built a wind tunnel while they were developing the first heavier than air airplane. They were the first to do so and were first to make a successful airplane. They experimented with different wing designs and measured their lift and drag forces, the objective being to get the most lift with the least drag. They were successful where others had failed.
                 
                Being operators of a bicycle shop, they also realized that one has to learn how to ride a bicycle. We are not born with that skill. Hence they practiced controlling large tethered kites before they tried to fly their first plane. Again we are not born with the skills required to fly a plane. These must be learned by practice.
                 
                Large wind tunnels were built later (circa. 1930) in which full size airplanes of the day could be flown and perfected.
                 
                I have been the systems design engineer for the large electric motor systems which dive the fans in many of the largest wind tunnels in the world, one of the largest had 300,000 horsepower of motors.
                 
                Malcolm D. Horton
                971 St. David's Lane
                Niskayuna, NY 12309-5512
                Phone (518)374-5092
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:02 PM
                Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design

                I can't believe there was a wind-tunnel used for testing back in 1931.  I didn't think that form of testing came
                around until the 1950's.  I'm guessing the automakers were using this?  Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic
                coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?
                 
                Gino
                -----Original Message-----
                From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saul Kalbfeld
                Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 3:48 PM
                To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design

                At our NCR Division 8 meeting last night our speaker talked about the traction lines around Philly and he mentioned that the bullet cars in service there and on the FJ&G were aerodynamically designed at the University of Michigan using their new large wind tunnel. They must have had some kind of mockup, or just a model. Anyone know more about this. The Philly cars ran in regular service until a few years ago.
                Regards,
                Saul 
              • paul larner
                Does the Cord ring a bell. PKL
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 17, 2006
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                  Does the Cord ring a bell.

                  PKL


                  >From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                  >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design
                  >Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 19:02:07 -0600
                  >
                  >I can't believe there was a wind-tunnel used for testing back in 1931.
                  >I didn't think that form of testing came
                  >around until the 1950's. I'm guessing the automakers were using this?
                  >Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic
                  >coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?
                  >
                  >Gino
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >[mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saul Kalbfeld
                  > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 3:48 PM
                  > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design
                  >
                  >
                  > At our NCR Division 8 meeting last night our speaker talked
                  >about the traction lines around Philly and he mentioned that the bullet
                  >cars in service there and on the FJ&G were aerodynamically designed at
                  >the University of Michigan using their new large wind tunnel. They must
                  >have had some kind of mockup, or just a model. Anyone know more about
                  >this. The Philly cars ran in regular service until a few years ago.
                  > Regards,
                  > Saul
                  >
                  >
                  > Visit The FJ&G Store At http://www.cafepress.com/fjgrr
                  > Visit Pete Seftons Lost Landmark Page
                  > http://www.lostlandmarks.org
                  > Visit Charles P. Woolever's Existing Railroad Stations in New
                  >York State at
                  > http://ny.existingstations.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SPONSORED LINKS
                  >Business finance course
                  ><http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Business+finance+course&w1=Business
                  >+finance+course&w2=Business+to+business+finance&w3=Small+business+financ
                  >e&w4=Business+finance+consultant&w5=Business+finance+magazine&w6=Busines
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                • Dicarlo, Gino
                  You are right Mal. My cousin used to have a two seat, pontoon sea-plane. What a neat machine. He took me for a ride over the Great Sacandaga Lake once. Of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 18, 2006
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                    Message
                    You are right Mal.  My cousin used to have a two seat, pontoon sea-plane.  What a neat machine.
                    He took me for a ride over the Great Sacandaga Lake once.  Of course I was looking for the FJ&G ROW.  This plane had a throttle in both seats.  He let me take the throttle so I could see what it felt like to fly a plane.  It wasn't easy.  It took a little bit to steady her.  I thought we were going to loop-de-loop
                    while I was attempting to gain control.
                     
                    In my opinion, it's easier learning to ride a bike.  Softer landing too fallin' from a bicycle...
                     
                    Gino
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Malcolm Horton
                    Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 12:02 AM
                    To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design

                    The Wright brothers built a wind tunnel while they were developing the first heavier than air airplane. They were the first to do so and were first to make a successful airplane. They experimented with different wing designs and measured their lift and drag forces, the objective being to get the most lift with the least drag. They were successful where others had failed.
                     
                    Being operators of a bicycle shop, they also realized that one has to learn how to ride a bicycle. We are not born with that skill. Hence they practiced controlling large tethered kites before they tried to fly their first plane. Again we are not born with the skills required to fly a plane. These must be learned by practice.
                     
                    Large wind tunnels were built later (circa. 1930) in which full size airplanes of the day could be flown and perfected.
                     
                    I have been the systems design engineer for the large electric motor systems which dive the fans in many of the largest wind tunnels in the world, one of the largest had 300,000 horsepower of motors.
                     
                    Malcolm D. Horton
                    971 St. David's Lane
                    Niskayuna, NY 12309-5512
                    Phone (518)374-5092
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 8:02 PM
                    Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design

                    I can't believe there was a wind-tunnel used for testing back in 1931.  I didn't think that form of testing came
                    around until the 1950's.  I'm guessing the automakers were using this?  Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic
                    coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?
                     
                    Gino
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Saul Kalbfeld
                    Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 3:48 PM
                    To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design

                    At our NCR Division 8 meeting last night our speaker talked about the traction lines around Philly and he mentioned that the bullet cars in service there and on the FJ&G were aerodynamically designed at the University of Michigan using their new large wind tunnel. They must have had some kind of mockup, or just a model. Anyone know more about this. The Philly cars ran in regular service until a few years ago.
                    Regards,
                    Saul 
                  • Paul Charland
                    ...near the bottom of this page: They began with a comprehensive series of experiments with a wide variety of airfoils. In the short span of 3 months these
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 18, 2006
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                      ...near the bottom of this page:

                      "They began with a comprehensive series of experiments with a wide
                      variety of airfoils. In the short span of 3 months these tests produced
                      the basic data needed for building their 1902 glider and the powered
                      aircraft to follow. During this short span of time, the Wrights
                      leapfrogged other aerodynamicists the world over.

                      The first tests were exploratory and utilized an unconventional testing
                      machine: a bicycle with a third wheel mounted horizontally on the front
                      of the frame. Two test shapes were mounted on the wheel, and the bicycle
                      was pedaled rapidly (up to 15 mph) up and down the streets of Dayton.
                      The airfoil being tested would produce a torque in one direction, but
                      this was counterbalanced by an opposite torque from a reference shape.
                      The rotating balance was brought into equilibrium by changing the
                      airfoil's angle of attack. Data from the impromptu rig were crude, but
                      they reinforced the Wrights' decision to reject existing handbook data.
                      They had to write their own handbook, and for that they needed a wind
                      tunnel.

                      The first tunnel consisted of a square tube for channeling the air, a
                      driving fan, and a two-element balance mounted in the airstream. One
                      balance element was a calibrated plane surface; the other was a cambered
                      test surface inclined at the same angle but in the opposite direction.
                      When the wind tunnel was brought up to speed, the vane-type balance
                      turned one way or the other, thereby indicating the relative lifting
                      forces. The preliminary results from the makeshift tunnel were so
                      encouraging that the Wrights immediately built a larger and more
                      sophisticated facility with a 16-inch-square test section. Here they
                      obtained the critical data they needed for their first manned, powered
                      aircraft.

                      They did make one mistake-they installed the tunnel's two-bladed fan
                      upstream. Shields, screens, and a honeycomb grid did cut down the
                      turbulence, but it was a curious lapse for the detail-conscious Wrights.
                      Recognizing that their laboratory itself was the return path for the air
                      rushing out of the tunnel test section at 25-35 mph, they forbade the
                      moving of objects and people while taking data."

                      ...so, 1902 for a "tube" type wind tunnel.

                      Paul

                      Dicarlo, Gino wrote:
                      > I'm not talking about sticking your hand out the car window to test
                      > resistance, I'm talking about in the sense today where large fans are
                      > employed and the object is kept stationary.
                      >
                      > Gino
                    • peter sefton
                      Think of the Chrysler & DeSoto Airflows of 1935 Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic coming out of Detroit in the early 1930 s? Gino ... _____
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 18, 2006
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                        Message

                         

                        Think of the Chrysler & DeSoto Airflows of 1935

                        Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic

                        coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?

                         

                        Gino

                        -----Original Message-----

                         


                      • Gerald Snyder
                        Beautiful car. Front wheel drive, retractable headlights, way ahead of it s time. If I never find that Dusenburgh in an old barn I ll settle for a 1936 Model
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 18, 2006
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                          Beautiful car. Front wheel drive, retractable
                          headlights, way ahead of it's time. If I never find
                          that Dusenburgh in an old barn I'll settle for a 1936
                          Model 812 convertible.
                          Jerry

                          --- paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:

                          > Does the Cord ring a bell.
                          >
                          > PKL
                          >
                          >
                          > >From: "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...>
                          > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > >To: <FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com>
                          > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design
                          > >Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 19:02:07 -0600
                          > >
                          > >I can't believe there was a wind-tunnel used for
                          > testing back in 1931.
                          > >I didn't think that form of testing came
                          > >around until the 1950's. I'm guessing the
                          > automakers were using this?
                          > >Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic
                          > >coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?
                          > >
                          > >Gino
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > >[mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          > Saul Kalbfeld
                          > > Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 3:48 PM
                          > > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > At our NCR Division 8 meeting last night our
                          > speaker talked
                          > >about the traction lines around Philly and he
                          > mentioned that the bullet
                          > >cars in service there and on the FJ&G were
                          > aerodynamically designed at
                          > >the University of Michigan using their new large
                          > wind tunnel. They must
                          > >have had some kind of mockup, or just a model.
                          > Anyone know more about
                          > >this. The Philly cars ran in regular service until
                          > a few years ago.
                          > > Regards,
                          > > Saul
                          > >
                          > >
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                        • Stephen G. Myers
                          Think of the B&M Flying Yankee tin fish. Steve On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 09:11:13 -0500 peter sefton writes: Think of the Chrysler & DeSoto
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 18, 2006
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                            Message
                            Think of the B&M Flying Yankee tin fish.
                             
                            Steve
                             
                            On Sat, 18 Mar 2006 09:11:13 -0500 "peter sefton" <psefton@...> writes:

                             

                            Think of the Chrysler & DeSoto Airflows of 1935

                            Jeesh, was there anything aerodynamic

                            coming out of Detroit in the early 1930's?

                             

                            Gino

                            -----Original Message-----

                             



                             
                          • Dave Brennan
                            paul larner wrote: Does the Cord ring a bell. PKL Is it the clapper or the man pulling the cord that rings the bell???? ... Yahoo!
                            Message 13 of 14 , Mar 18, 2006
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                              paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                              Does the Cord ring a bell.

                              PKL

                                Is it the clapper or the man pulling the cord that rings the bell????


                              Yahoo! Travel
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                            • paul larner
                              I guess that would depend on how the wind was blowing??
                              Message 14 of 14 , Mar 20, 2006
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                                I guess that would depend on how the wind was blowing??


                                >From: Dave Brennan <oldcrab62@...>
                                >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                                >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Brill Bullet Design
                                >Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 08:04:05 -0800 (PST)
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote: Does the Cord ring a bell.
                                >
                                >PKL
                                >
                                > Is it the clapper or the man pulling the cord that rings the bell????
                                >
                                >---------------------------------
                                >Yahoo! Travel
                                > Find great deals to the top 10 hottest destinations!
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