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Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803

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  • paul larner
    Good morning, No, I hadn t seen that particular one. I went to the Hojack line yahoo site, which knew nothing, talked to a couple different town historians
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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      Good morning,

      No, I hadn't seen that particular one. I went to the Hojack line yahoo
      site, which knew nothing, talked to a couple different town historians and
      others who had done articles in the area. The "Port Jervis" paper calling
      the wayfreight a Hojack fits with the connection I made with the speed of
      the trains and the use of the slow freights by the hobos. The connection to
      the hobos came from one of the historians up there, who asked his mother for
      her recollections of the line. She recalled the number of hobos and the
      hobo camps along the line as well as the migrants who picked the fruit.

      This is the first published use of the word Hojack that I have seen.
      Interestingly it is in the area of the Erie Ry. far from northern NY.
      Importantly the articles indicate such a word was part of the language.
      Could it be that "hojack was instead a term for a slow freight? From
      everything I have gathered, a "fast" freight never operated over the line;
      even their passenger trains ran on leisurely schedules.

      The rest of the Wikipedia information is in Hungerford's History of the
      RW&O. Never is the term hojack found.

      Good information; I can't buy the common explanations given for the term -
      my "reasonable" test.

      Paul





      >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
      >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
      >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:21:44 -0500
      >
      >Have you seen this page of the Wiki:
      >
      >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad
      >
      >Paul :-)
      >
      >joseph Klapkowski wrote:
      > > There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego.
      >According
      > > to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which
      >was
      > > somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that
      >of
      > > course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.
      > >
      > > Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
      > > Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
      > > line.
    • paul larner
      Location of tower 65. Today where the Amtrak trains come in from Toronto they stop for customs just as they come off the bridge. At that point can be seen
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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        Location of tower 65. Today where the Amtrak trains come in from Toronto
        they stop for customs just as they come off the bridge. At that point can
        be seen the remnants ofteh RW&O line which went north to Lewiston and
        further along the lake shore. This point where the lines crossed was the
        location of NYC tower 65 which seems to have controlled the junction. For
        reference I use NYC employee timetable No. 7, Buffalo division.

        Paul

        >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
        >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
        >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:21:44 -0500
        >
        >Have you seen this page of the Wiki:
        >
        >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad
        >
        >Paul :-)
        >
        >joseph Klapkowski wrote:
        > > There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego.
        >According
        > > to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which
        >was
        > > somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that
        >of
        > > course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.
        > >
        > > Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
        > > Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
        > > line.
      • Richard Finn
        Go to the Wikipedia home page and do a search on railroads, There is a link to defunct railroads. That link may even be on the Hojack pages, to railroads in
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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          Go to the Wikipedia home page and do a search on railroads,  There is a link to defunct railroads.  That link may even be on the Hojack pages, to railroads in New York State.  I think that is the process I used, but being unfamiliar with Wikipedia I really didn't keep track of where I went.

          Dick

          On Mar 4, 2006, at 12:14 PM, paul larner wrote:

          Good morning,

          No, I hadn't seen that particular one.  I went to the Hojack line yahoo
          site, which knew nothing, talked to a couple different town historians and
          others who had done articles in the area.  The "Port Jervis" paper calling
          the wayfreight a Hojack fits with the connection I made with the speed of
          the trains and the use of the slow freights by the hobos.  The connection to
          the hobos came from one of the historians up there, who asked his mother for
          her recollections of the line.  She recalled the number of hobos and the
          hobo camps along the line as well as the migrants who picked the fruit.

          This is the first published use of the word Hojack that I have seen. 
          Interestingly it is in the area of the Erie Ry. far from northern NY.  
          Importantly the articles indicate such a word was part of the language. 
          Could it be that "hojack was instead a term for a slow freight?  From
          everything I have gathered, a "fast" freight never operated over the line;
          even their passenger trains ran on leisurely schedules.

          The rest of the Wikipedia information is in Hungerford's History of the
          RW&O.  Never is the term hojack found.

          Good information; I can't buy the common explanations given for the term -
          my "reasonable" test.

          Paul





          >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
          >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:21:44 -0500
          >
          >Have you seen this page of the Wiki:
          >
          >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad
          >
          >Paul :-)
          >
          >joseph Klapkowski wrote:
          > > There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego.
          >According
          > > to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which
          >was
          > > somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that
          >of
          > > course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.
          > >
          > > Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
          > > Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
          > > line.




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        • Paul Charland
          Hi Paul, If you type Hojack into Google a number of sites turn up including this one with their explanation of the origins of the Hojack nickname for the line:
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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            Hi Paul,

            If you type Hojack into Google a number of sites turn up including this
            one with their explanation of the origins of the Hojack nickname for the
            line:

            http://www.webstertrails.org/hojack/hojack.htm

            Paul :-)

            paul larner wrote:
            > Good morning,
            >
            > No, I hadn't seen that particular one. I went to the Hojack line yahoo
            > site, which knew nothing, talked to a couple different town historians and
            > others who had done articles in the area. The "Port Jervis" paper calling
            > the wayfreight a Hojack fits with the connection I made with the speed of
            > the trains and the use of the slow freights by the hobos. The connection to
            > the hobos came from one of the historians up there, who asked his mother for
            > her recollections of the line. She recalled the number of hobos and the
            > hobo camps along the line as well as the migrants who picked the fruit.
            >
            > This is the first published use of the word Hojack that I have seen.
            > Interestingly it is in the area of the Erie Ry. far from northern NY.
            > Importantly the articles indicate such a word was part of the language.
            > Could it be that "hojack was instead a term for a slow freight? From
            > everything I have gathered, a "fast" freight never operated over the line;
            > even their passenger trains ran on leisurely schedules.
            >
            > The rest of the Wikipedia information is in Hungerford's History of the
            > RW&O. Never is the term hojack found.
            >
            > Good information; I can't buy the common explanations given for the term -
            > my "reasonable" test.
            >
            > Paul
          • joseph Klapkowski
            Well I would bet that I have heard one of those stories before. The story about the farmer s so n and the jack ass racing the train is my favorite because of
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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              Well I would bet that I have heard one of those stories before. The story
              about the farmer's so n and the jack ass racing the train is my favorite
              because of wjhere i heard it. In the Yard Office in Oswego one night just
              before I got a ride to Dewitt and back on the head end.


              >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
              >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
              >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:21:44 -0500
              >
              >Have you seen this page of the Wiki:
              >
              >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad
              >
              >Paul :-)
              >
              >joseph Klapkowski wrote:
              > > There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego.
              >According
              > > to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which
              >was
              > > somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that
              >of
              > > course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.
              > >
              > > Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
              > > Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
              > > line.
            • Paul Charland
              Hi Paul, Here s a site with a ton of NYC files, scroll down and you will find NYC timetables from as far back as the mid-teens:
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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                Hi Paul,

                Here's a site with a ton of NYC files, scroll down and you will find NYC
                timetables from as far back as the mid-teens:

                http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc.html

                Scroll down a bit more and you will find this 1954 NYC map that includes
                the RW&O line:

                http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-map54.gif

                This is a nice historic map page that includes this 1883 New York map
                that still has the line labeled RW&O. You'll need to select a zoom, and
                then click on the map in the area of the railroad, but then you can
                either zoom in more, or simply click on the map and follow the line to
                where you want to go:

                http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?gmd:13:./temp/~ammem_7v16::

                Af for "Tower 65", I have a Conrail ETT from '78 that still shows the
                remains of the RW&O line on the Buffalo map but it's only dots like it's
                abandon. There is no reference in the ETT to this line, and no such
                animal as tower in the area. I suspect Conrail refers to towers as
                "CP"s or Control Points and if this is the case I can find CP 61 but no
                CP 65. CP 61 is on a line between Buffalo station and Suspension Bridge
                on what Conrail called the "Niagara Falls Secondary Track". It would
                look like one of the other rail lines that formed Conrail had a parallel
                line which Conrail calls the "Niagara Branch" and this is the line
                Conrail chose over the Niagara Falls Secondary what looks like it would
                have contained CP 65... this line is mentioned in a couple of other
                schedules as connecting to them, just not listed in the ETT.

                Paul :-)

                paul larner wrote:

                > Location of tower 65. Today where the Amtrak trains come in from Toronto
                > they stop for customs just as they come off the bridge. At that point can
                > be seen the remnants ofteh RW&O line which went north to Lewiston and
                > further along the lake shore. This point where the lines crossed was the
                > location of NYC tower 65 which seems to have controlled the junction. For
                > reference I use NYC employee timetable No. 7, Buffalo division.
                >
                > Paul
              • paul larner
                Paul, Thanks for the references. I neglected to give you the date of the timetable I used. It was from April 1960. Sometime after the consolidations,
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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                  Paul,

                  Thanks for the references. I neglected to give you the date of the
                  timetable I used. It was from April 1960. Sometime after the
                  consolidations, rationalizations and installation of TCS or CTC the term
                  control point (CP) came into use. There were a number of railroads serving
                  Niagara Falls in the 60's and earlier. Most remaining consolidated into Con
                  Rail, obviously an apt road name. Going up there today you can see the
                  ramnants and road beds of various different routes that converged on the
                  Falls. The present main track between CP 8, near Black Rock, and the Falls
                  is a combination of a couple former routes and a bit of relocation too.

                  Today there is nothing left downtown where once there was station and
                  support yards. (I haven't been there in a couple of years; there was a
                  convention center on part of the former site, now maybe a Casino.) As an
                  aside an interesting facet of the Falls is the generation of power for the
                  industries that once huddled along the chasms edge. To accomplish this
                  tunnels were dug beneath the central city from above the falls to below to
                  service first the individual industries and then the large tunnel for the
                  power plant that collapsed some years ago. The tunnels are still there and
                  today I believe have an impact on how and where the city builds.

                  PKL

                  >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
                  >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
                  >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:10:54 -0500
                  >
                  >Hi Paul,
                  >
                  >Here's a site with a ton of NYC files, scroll down and you will find NYC
                  >timetables from as far back as the mid-teens:
                  >
                  >http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc.html
                  >
                  >Scroll down a bit more and you will find this 1954 NYC map that includes
                  >the RW&O line:
                  >
                  >http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-map54.gif
                  >
                  >This is a nice historic map page that includes this 1883 New York map
                  >that still has the line labeled RW&O. You'll need to select a zoom, and
                  >then click on the map in the area of the railroad, but then you can
                  >either zoom in more, or simply click on the map and follow the line to
                  >where you want to go:
                  >
                  >http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?gmd:13:./temp/~ammem_7v16::
                  >
                  >Af for "Tower 65", I have a Conrail ETT from '78 that still shows the
                  >remains of the RW&O line on the Buffalo map but it's only dots like it's
                  >abandon. There is no reference in the ETT to this line, and no such
                  >animal as tower in the area. I suspect Conrail refers to towers as
                  >"CP"s or Control Points and if this is the case I can find CP 61 but no
                  >CP 65. CP 61 is on a line between Buffalo station and Suspension Bridge
                  >on what Conrail called the "Niagara Falls Secondary Track". It would
                  >look like one of the other rail lines that formed Conrail had a parallel
                  >line which Conrail calls the "Niagara Branch" and this is the line
                  >Conrail chose over the Niagara Falls Secondary what looks like it would
                  >have contained CP 65... this line is mentioned in a couple of other
                  >schedules as connecting to them, just not listed in the ETT.
                  >
                  >Paul :-)
                  >
                  >paul larner wrote:
                  >
                  > > Location of tower 65. Today where the Amtrak trains come in from
                  >Toronto
                  > > they stop for customs just as they come off the bridge. At that point
                  >can
                  > > be seen the remnants ofteh RW&O line which went north to Lewiston and
                  > > further along the lake shore. This point where the lines crossed was
                  >the
                  > > location of NYC tower 65 which seems to have controlled the junction.
                  >For
                  > > reference I use NYC employee timetable No. 7, Buffalo division.
                  > >
                  > > Paul
                  >
                • Paul Charland
                  Hi Paul, I have a Buffalo article from March 76 Trains Magazine with a map of all the rail lines in the area including the abandoned RW&O line but the
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 5, 2006
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                    Hi Paul,

                    I have a "Buffalo" article from March '76 Trains Magazine with a map of
                    all the rail lines in the area including the abandoned RW&O line but the
                    article is written as an Erie Lackawanna article and only labels EL
                    yards, towers, and points of interest, along with showing what mainlines
                    in the area belong to who at the time (think this was one of the many
                    'day before Conrail' articles that appeared at the time).

                    There has been talk of Niagara Mohawk drilling four more tunnels for
                    more turbines at the original site.

                    paul larner wrote:

                    > Paul,
                    >
                    > Thanks for the references. I neglected to give you the date of the
                    > timetable I used. It was from April 1960. Sometime after the
                    > consolidations, rationalizations and installation of TCS or CTC the term
                    > control point (CP) came into use. There were a number of railroads serving
                    > Niagara Falls in the 60's and earlier. Most remaining consolidated into Con
                    > Rail, obviously an apt road name. Going up there today you can see the
                    > ramnants and road beds of various different routes that converged on the
                    > Falls. The present main track between CP 8, near Black Rock, and the Falls
                    > is a combination of a couple former routes and a bit of relocation too.
                    >
                    > Today there is nothing left downtown where once there was station and
                    > support yards. (I haven't been there in a couple of years; there was a
                    > convention center on part of the former site, now maybe a Casino.) As an
                    > aside an interesting facet of the Falls is the generation of power for the
                    > industries that once huddled along the chasms edge. To accomplish this
                    > tunnels were dug beneath the central city from above the falls to below to
                    > service first the individual industries and then the large tunnel for the
                    > power plant that collapsed some years ago. The tunnels are still there and
                    > today I believe have an impact on how and where the city builds.
                    >
                    > PKL
                  • Paul Charland
                    NYC Tower 65 still existed on Conrail in the 1978 ETT I have, it s the former Boston and Albany tower across from the station in Chatham, NY!
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 5, 2006
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                      NYC Tower 65 still existed on Conrail in the 1978 ETT I have, it's the
                      former Boston and Albany tower across from the station in Chatham, NY!

                      http://www.trainweb.org/rshs/GRS%20-%20Chatham,%20NY.htm

                      Paul :-)
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