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Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803

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  • joseph Klapkowski
    There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego. According to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which was
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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      There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego. According
      to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which was
      somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that of
      course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.

      Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
      Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
      line.


      >From: Chris Brozek <chrisbrozek@...>
      >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
      >Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 13:21:50 -0800 (PST)
      >
      >Thanks so much for the explanation!! I always wondered why that line had
      >'hojack' as a nickname.
      >
      > I grew up in Webster and so have always been curious about the line
      >that ran through my town. I had the honor of riding in the cab of an OM
      >RS3 (in BN colors) leased from another company while it performed a
      >run-around move after it picked up a boxcar spotted at Page Packaging (in
      >the old RW&O freight building in the village) back in 1986. It was quite
      >a thrill!! The OM also had an RS11 (I think) that looked very nice in the
      >black/yellow colors of the parent company. Back in the 90's I took a
      >railfan trip with a friend on the OM from Webster down to Newark. It was
      >worth it just to negotiate around the curve of the old NYC/PRR crossing at
      >Wallington.
      >
      > I too read Hungerford's book on the RW&O and was dissapointed that it
      >didn't include much on the 'expansion' from Oswego to Niagara Falls.
      >
      > Thanks so much for the Sperry stories!
      >
      >
      > FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com wrote: There are 2 messages in this issue.
      >
      >Topics in this digest:
      >
      > 1. RE: From the Archives Sperry rail Service Part 5
      > From: "paul larner"
      >
      > 2. Re: From the Archives
      > From: Dave Brennan
      >
      >
      >________________________________________________________________________
      >________________________________________________________________________
      >
      >Message: 1
      > Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2006 00:49:45 -0500
      > From: "paul larner"
      >
      >Subject: RE: From the Archives Sperry rail Service Part 5
      >
      >Ho'jack = Hobo Laborer - referencing the annual influx and departure of
      >laborers to pick the fruit and vegetables along the old Lake Ontario Shore
      >RR.
      >
      >The Ho'jack line was noted for the hobos that used to ride it, probably
      >because of the leisurely pace at which the trains ran, compared to the main
      >line. While the name has been extended to the entire territory and tracks
      >of the former RW&O by some railfans and railroaders, the Hojack was the
      >line
      >along the south shore of Lake Ontario and its branches.
      >
      >I searched far and wide for the origin of the term and could not
      >rationalize the hokey explanations about mules named jack or engineers
      >named
      >jack. Anyone who's ever been in a cab of even a slow moving locomotive
      >knows no one there would ever hear, much less understand, something
      >hollered
      >to a mule or anyone from a crossing ahead, just too much noise.
      >Hungerford
      >never refers to the term in his history of the RW&O, published in 1922,
      >well
      >after the RW&O was absorbed into the NYC system. From that I deduce the
      >term is "line" related rather than "railroad" related.
      >
      >After conversations with folks in the region and hearing memories about the
      >hobos and their camps all along the line, and the need for temporary
      >laborers, I just happened to look in the dictionary. The first
      >definition
      >for "jack" given in the dictionary I used was "laborer." Hobo came up
      >"migrant worker." Slap!! Hobo laborer > Ho'jack; not unlike lumberjack,
      >bootjack, steeplejack etc. A word no longer in the lexicon, if ever. It
      >is
      >likely a colloquialism, a contraction, born among the towns along the
      >shore.
      >
      >That explanation isn't as cute as some of those quaint stories, but for a
      >nickname to apply over the entire breadth of the line, the meaning had to
      >originate from some definitive characteristic of that line.
      >
      >That's my story and I'm sticking to it; I offer it for what it is.
      >
      >PKL
      >
      >
      > >From: "joseph Klapkowski"
      > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: dandh@yahoogroups.com, HudsonRiverRailLines@...,
      > >FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, SperryRailService@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] From the Archives Sperry rail Service Part 5
      > >Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 04:11:56 +0000
      > >
      > >Okay where were we. Oh right we were starting down the Hojack which is
      >the
      > >nickname for parts of the Rome Watertown & Ogdensburg. Nobody seems to
      >know
      > >for sure what Hojack means. One story is that in the very early days of
      > >railroading, the engineer of a woodburning steam engine would come upon a
      > >farm and the farmer's son would race the train to the end of the field on
      > >the family donkey. the boy and the jack ass would stop and the engineer
      > >would yell out to the boy, HOOOO Jack!
      > >
      > >Another story i heard in the Oswego yard office was that the engineer
      >came
      > >upon a donkey or cow that regularly liked to wander about the gauge of
      >the
      > >track. The engineer and conductor would be obliged to get down and try to
      > >coax the four legged obstructionout of the way and in so doing they would
      > >call out whooooo Jack!
      > >
      > >Anyway we were heading south along the single track and I had finally
      > >gotten
      > >a little of the nervousness out of me. I learned the proper way to blow
      >for
      > >the crossings and somewhere along the line they explained that the red
      > >handled emergecy cord was to be pulled on your way out the door if a
      > >collision were imminent. I remember feeling pretty good about this job
      >and
      > >then Jimmy came up and said I should go get a sandwich then head back to
      > >the
      > >detector room. So off I went. I am pretty sure I did not eat anything but
      > >there was ALWAYS coffee brewing. It was like a Sperry thing to have
      >coffee
      > >AT ALL TIMES. So off to the detector room cigarette in one hand and
      >coffee
      > >in the other. It is a little tricky even at 13 MPH walking back through
      >the
      > >engineroom and into the detector room. But I made it just fine and
      >watched
      > >all that was going on.
      > >
      > >Then whoever was at the table gave a single buzz for the engineeman to
      > >stop.
      > >Then the operator stood up and guess who was in the way? Well they told
      >me
      > >where to stand while we were testing but not what to do once we stopped.
      >I
      > >stepped out of the way and the operator went to the steps and backed up
      >the
      > >car. Once stopped the chief stood up and got out. I did not know what to
      > >do.
      > >The chief came back to the steps and that is when I heard it, "Junior,
      >get
      > >out here". Well down the steps I went and watched the process of running
      > >the
      > >rail with the wand which actually has a technical term in Sperry Speak
      >that
      > >I have long forgotten.
      > >
      > >We repeated this process a couple of times and then suddenly the chief
      > >motioned for the operator to get up. Junior sit down he ordered! I had
      > >absolutely no idea what the heck was going on. I am not sure if ivan was
      > >playing with me (he was) but I finally said "What do I do?" "Coun"t Ivan
      > >replied. Now here was a man who could spot a defect with his own eyes
      >just
      > >by looking at the rust streak along the rail. He KNEW EVERYTHING there
      >was
      > >to know about defective rails.
      > >
      > >Once again I have to stop and explain where we were. The hojack was a
      > >fairly
      > >well maintained branchline. It had 105 jointed Dudley a signature of New
      > >York Central branches. so every 39 feet there was a joint. "There." Ivan
      > >said, :"there is the joint on the right here is the joint on the left.
      >Here
      > >is your next joint and then this one here." Now what is this?" he asked
      > >pointing to the sqwiggly line on the main paper. "A joint" I replied. It
      > >seemed kind of funny. Remember I had just completed my Freshman year at
      > >SUNY
      > >Oswego. Joint had a very different meaning back then.
      > >
      > >"No junior!", "There are six joints on the paper but only five on the
      > >rails"
      > >"Back em up!" by now we were an easy 12 rails from the offending spot. I
      > >gave one buzzer to stop and three to back up and then Ivan stopped him
      >with
      > >the buzzer and I stood on the top step while I watched him motion for the
      > >car to stop. Then we went through the ritual and I learned how to sqwirt
      > >the
      > >soapy water and then use the hand wand to find the defect. Nothing really
      > >just some surface running and pitting of the rail.
      > >
      > >we repeated the process for maybe an hour and then I was banished to the
      > >engineman's position for the rest of the afternoon. As I am sitting up
      > >there
      > >now really alone for the first time my mind begins to wander. there are
      >the
      > >trees that encroach on the right of way. An occassional deer or muskrat
      >but
      > >the steady drone of the Cat (1407) beside me and the warm summer sun can
      > >really lull you into a trance. there is no deadman on the Sperry car so I
      > >decide to stand up and stretch. Cup of coffee would be great right about
      > >now.
      > >
      > >BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. I stop
      > >
      > >I look into the rear view mirror and everyone is getting out. No one is
      > >signaling. Then Ivan looks up at me from the ground and gets back on the
      > >car. The phone rings. I pick up. Junior, get back here. I stood up and
      >open
      > >the door to the kitchen, walk back through the dinning room and past the
      > >bedrooms then oper the door to the engineroom, past the open sliding
      > >baggage
      > >door and open the door to the detector room. The railroad guy is milling
      > >about talking on the radio, Ivan is standing there hands on hips, the
      >other
      > >operator is on the groung. "Junior ! Did you see that?" I looked over the
      > >edge of the detector table about twenty feet away and there was an
      > >enourmous
      > >hole in the ground under the tracks. A sink hole! "Where did that come
      > >from?
      > >I asked"
      > >
      > >I did not know Ivan hardly at all but he did not look pleased. We had a
      > >discussion about whether it was there before I went over the track and I
      > >assured everyone that it was not. You just could not have missed a twenty
      > >foot hole under the tracks.
      > >This put the Sperry car into the hole for the afternoon. Of course the
      >end
      > >of testing because the railroad didn't want you to did not mean the end
      >of
      > >the Sperry man's day. We ALWAYS had the detector room swept, mopped and
      > >closed up before we tied the car down. How much else we could do depended
      > >upon whether or not we were moving.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >And that my friends is another installment of From The
      > >Archives.......................... stay tuned. I promise that in the next
      > >installment we will hear about the creamery track, invasion of the bushes
      > >and the 36 inch pounding. Hopefully we will make it as far as Woodard and
      >I
      > >can tell you how we kept that Sperry Car shiny and clean............
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >________________________________________________________________________
      >________________________________________________________________________
      >
      >Message: 2
      > Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2006 05:46:02 -0800 (PST)
      > From: Dave Brennan
      >Subject: Re: From the Archives
      >
      > I enjoy it ! I worked on the NYC tracks for 2 weeks once.
      > Dave
      >joseph Klapkowski wrote: I can not keep this up nigth after
      >night.........the Pinewood derby is
      >coming and I have a work project and a couple of evening engagements coming
      >up. Several of you have offered encouragement with this "project". Is there
      >anyone else out there who wants to hear more ?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Visit The FJ&G Store At http://www.cafepress.com/fjgrr
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      >http://www.lostlandmarks.org
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      >http://ny.existingstations.com/
      >
      >
      >
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      >________________________________________________________________________
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      >http://www.lostlandmarks.org
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      >http://ny.existingstations.com/
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      >Chris Brozek
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    • Paul Charland
      Have you seen this page of the Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad Paul :-)
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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        Have you seen this page of the Wiki:

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad

        Paul :-)

        joseph Klapkowski wrote:
        > There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego. According
        > to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which was
        > somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that of
        > course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.
        >
        > Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
        > Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
        > line.
      • paul larner
        Good morning, No, I hadn t seen that particular one. I went to the Hojack line yahoo site, which knew nothing, talked to a couple different town historians
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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          Good morning,

          No, I hadn't seen that particular one. I went to the Hojack line yahoo
          site, which knew nothing, talked to a couple different town historians and
          others who had done articles in the area. The "Port Jervis" paper calling
          the wayfreight a Hojack fits with the connection I made with the speed of
          the trains and the use of the slow freights by the hobos. The connection to
          the hobos came from one of the historians up there, who asked his mother for
          her recollections of the line. She recalled the number of hobos and the
          hobo camps along the line as well as the migrants who picked the fruit.

          This is the first published use of the word Hojack that I have seen.
          Interestingly it is in the area of the Erie Ry. far from northern NY.
          Importantly the articles indicate such a word was part of the language.
          Could it be that "hojack was instead a term for a slow freight? From
          everything I have gathered, a "fast" freight never operated over the line;
          even their passenger trains ran on leisurely schedules.

          The rest of the Wikipedia information is in Hungerford's History of the
          RW&O. Never is the term hojack found.

          Good information; I can't buy the common explanations given for the term -
          my "reasonable" test.

          Paul





          >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
          >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:21:44 -0500
          >
          >Have you seen this page of the Wiki:
          >
          >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad
          >
          >Paul :-)
          >
          >joseph Klapkowski wrote:
          > > There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego.
          >According
          > > to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which
          >was
          > > somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that
          >of
          > > course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.
          > >
          > > Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
          > > Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
          > > line.
        • paul larner
          Location of tower 65. Today where the Amtrak trains come in from Toronto they stop for customs just as they come off the bridge. At that point can be seen
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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            Location of tower 65. Today where the Amtrak trains come in from Toronto
            they stop for customs just as they come off the bridge. At that point can
            be seen the remnants ofteh RW&O line which went north to Lewiston and
            further along the lake shore. This point where the lines crossed was the
            location of NYC tower 65 which seems to have controlled the junction. For
            reference I use NYC employee timetable No. 7, Buffalo division.

            Paul

            >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
            >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
            >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:21:44 -0500
            >
            >Have you seen this page of the Wiki:
            >
            >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad
            >
            >Paul :-)
            >
            >joseph Klapkowski wrote:
            > > There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego.
            >According
            > > to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which
            >was
            > > somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that
            >of
            > > course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.
            > >
            > > Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
            > > Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
            > > line.
          • Richard Finn
            Go to the Wikipedia home page and do a search on railroads, There is a link to defunct railroads. That link may even be on the Hojack pages, to railroads in
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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              Go to the Wikipedia home page and do a search on railroads,  There is a link to defunct railroads.  That link may even be on the Hojack pages, to railroads in New York State.  I think that is the process I used, but being unfamiliar with Wikipedia I really didn't keep track of where I went.

              Dick

              On Mar 4, 2006, at 12:14 PM, paul larner wrote:

              Good morning,

              No, I hadn't seen that particular one.  I went to the Hojack line yahoo
              site, which knew nothing, talked to a couple different town historians and
              others who had done articles in the area.  The "Port Jervis" paper calling
              the wayfreight a Hojack fits with the connection I made with the speed of
              the trains and the use of the slow freights by the hobos.  The connection to
              the hobos came from one of the historians up there, who asked his mother for
              her recollections of the line.  She recalled the number of hobos and the
              hobo camps along the line as well as the migrants who picked the fruit.

              This is the first published use of the word Hojack that I have seen. 
              Interestingly it is in the area of the Erie Ry. far from northern NY.  
              Importantly the articles indicate such a word was part of the language. 
              Could it be that "hojack was instead a term for a slow freight?  From
              everything I have gathered, a "fast" freight never operated over the line;
              even their passenger trains ran on leisurely schedules.

              The rest of the Wikipedia information is in Hungerford's History of the
              RW&O.  Never is the term hojack found.

              Good information; I can't buy the common explanations given for the term -
              my "reasonable" test.

              Paul





              >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
              >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
              >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:21:44 -0500
              >
              >Have you seen this page of the Wiki:
              >
              >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad
              >
              >Paul :-)
              >
              >joseph Klapkowski wrote:
              > > There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego.
              >According
              > > to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which
              >was
              > > somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that
              >of
              > > course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.
              > >
              > > Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
              > > Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
              > > line.




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            • Paul Charland
              Hi Paul, If you type Hojack into Google a number of sites turn up including this one with their explanation of the origins of the Hojack nickname for the line:
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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                Hi Paul,

                If you type Hojack into Google a number of sites turn up including this
                one with their explanation of the origins of the Hojack nickname for the
                line:

                http://www.webstertrails.org/hojack/hojack.htm

                Paul :-)

                paul larner wrote:
                > Good morning,
                >
                > No, I hadn't seen that particular one. I went to the Hojack line yahoo
                > site, which knew nothing, talked to a couple different town historians and
                > others who had done articles in the area. The "Port Jervis" paper calling
                > the wayfreight a Hojack fits with the connection I made with the speed of
                > the trains and the use of the slow freights by the hobos. The connection to
                > the hobos came from one of the historians up there, who asked his mother for
                > her recollections of the line. She recalled the number of hobos and the
                > hobo camps along the line as well as the migrants who picked the fruit.
                >
                > This is the first published use of the word Hojack that I have seen.
                > Interestingly it is in the area of the Erie Ry. far from northern NY.
                > Importantly the articles indicate such a word was part of the language.
                > Could it be that "hojack was instead a term for a slow freight? From
                > everything I have gathered, a "fast" freight never operated over the line;
                > even their passenger trains ran on leisurely schedules.
                >
                > The rest of the Wikipedia information is in Hungerford's History of the
                > RW&O. Never is the term hojack found.
                >
                > Good information; I can't buy the common explanations given for the term -
                > my "reasonable" test.
                >
                > Paul
              • joseph Klapkowski
                Well I would bet that I have heard one of those stories before. The story about the farmer s so n and the jack ass racing the train is my favorite because of
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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                  Well I would bet that I have heard one of those stories before. The story
                  about the farmer's so n and the jack ass racing the train is my favorite
                  because of wjhere i heard it. In the Yard Office in Oswego one night just
                  before I got a ride to Dewitt and back on the head end.


                  >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
                  >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
                  >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 11:21:44 -0500
                  >
                  >Have you seen this page of the Wiki:
                  >
                  >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome,_Watertown_and_Ogdensburg_Railroad
                  >
                  >Paul :-)
                  >
                  >joseph Klapkowski wrote:
                  > > There is precious little written about the Hojack west of Oswego.
                  >According
                  > > to my NYC ETT the hojack actuall ended at a place called Tower 65 which
                  >was
                  > > somewhere near Niagara Falls. I have an old RW&O public timetable that
                  >of
                  > > course shows the destination as Suspension Bridge.
                  > >
                  > > Anyone know where tower 65 was. Better yet anyone belong to the NYC
                  > > Historical society ? Maybe some member there would have some info on the
                  > > line.
                • Paul Charland
                  Hi Paul, Here s a site with a ton of NYC files, scroll down and you will find NYC timetables from as far back as the mid-teens:
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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                    Hi Paul,

                    Here's a site with a ton of NYC files, scroll down and you will find NYC
                    timetables from as far back as the mid-teens:

                    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc.html

                    Scroll down a bit more and you will find this 1954 NYC map that includes
                    the RW&O line:

                    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-map54.gif

                    This is a nice historic map page that includes this 1883 New York map
                    that still has the line labeled RW&O. You'll need to select a zoom, and
                    then click on the map in the area of the railroad, but then you can
                    either zoom in more, or simply click on the map and follow the line to
                    where you want to go:

                    http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?gmd:13:./temp/~ammem_7v16::

                    Af for "Tower 65", I have a Conrail ETT from '78 that still shows the
                    remains of the RW&O line on the Buffalo map but it's only dots like it's
                    abandon. There is no reference in the ETT to this line, and no such
                    animal as tower in the area. I suspect Conrail refers to towers as
                    "CP"s or Control Points and if this is the case I can find CP 61 but no
                    CP 65. CP 61 is on a line between Buffalo station and Suspension Bridge
                    on what Conrail called the "Niagara Falls Secondary Track". It would
                    look like one of the other rail lines that formed Conrail had a parallel
                    line which Conrail calls the "Niagara Branch" and this is the line
                    Conrail chose over the Niagara Falls Secondary what looks like it would
                    have contained CP 65... this line is mentioned in a couple of other
                    schedules as connecting to them, just not listed in the ETT.

                    Paul :-)

                    paul larner wrote:

                    > Location of tower 65. Today where the Amtrak trains come in from Toronto
                    > they stop for customs just as they come off the bridge. At that point can
                    > be seen the remnants ofteh RW&O line which went north to Lewiston and
                    > further along the lake shore. This point where the lines crossed was the
                    > location of NYC tower 65 which seems to have controlled the junction. For
                    > reference I use NYC employee timetable No. 7, Buffalo division.
                    >
                    > Paul
                  • paul larner
                    Paul, Thanks for the references. I neglected to give you the date of the timetable I used. It was from April 1960. Sometime after the consolidations,
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 4, 2006
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                      Paul,

                      Thanks for the references. I neglected to give you the date of the
                      timetable I used. It was from April 1960. Sometime after the
                      consolidations, rationalizations and installation of TCS or CTC the term
                      control point (CP) came into use. There were a number of railroads serving
                      Niagara Falls in the 60's and earlier. Most remaining consolidated into Con
                      Rail, obviously an apt road name. Going up there today you can see the
                      ramnants and road beds of various different routes that converged on the
                      Falls. The present main track between CP 8, near Black Rock, and the Falls
                      is a combination of a couple former routes and a bit of relocation too.

                      Today there is nothing left downtown where once there was station and
                      support yards. (I haven't been there in a couple of years; there was a
                      convention center on part of the former site, now maybe a Casino.) As an
                      aside an interesting facet of the Falls is the generation of power for the
                      industries that once huddled along the chasms edge. To accomplish this
                      tunnels were dug beneath the central city from above the falls to below to
                      service first the individual industries and then the large tunnel for the
                      power plant that collapsed some years ago. The tunnels are still there and
                      today I believe have an impact on how and where the city builds.

                      PKL

                      >From: Paul Charland <p.charlie@...>
                      >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: Re: [FJGRailroad] Digest Number 1803
                      >Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:10:54 -0500
                      >
                      >Hi Paul,
                      >
                      >Here's a site with a ton of NYC files, scroll down and you will find NYC
                      >timetables from as far back as the mid-teens:
                      >
                      >http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc.html
                      >
                      >Scroll down a bit more and you will find this 1954 NYC map that includes
                      >the RW&O line:
                      >
                      >http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-map54.gif
                      >
                      >This is a nice historic map page that includes this 1883 New York map
                      >that still has the line labeled RW&O. You'll need to select a zoom, and
                      >then click on the map in the area of the railroad, but then you can
                      >either zoom in more, or simply click on the map and follow the line to
                      >where you want to go:
                      >
                      >http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?gmd:13:./temp/~ammem_7v16::
                      >
                      >Af for "Tower 65", I have a Conrail ETT from '78 that still shows the
                      >remains of the RW&O line on the Buffalo map but it's only dots like it's
                      >abandon. There is no reference in the ETT to this line, and no such
                      >animal as tower in the area. I suspect Conrail refers to towers as
                      >"CP"s or Control Points and if this is the case I can find CP 61 but no
                      >CP 65. CP 61 is on a line between Buffalo station and Suspension Bridge
                      >on what Conrail called the "Niagara Falls Secondary Track". It would
                      >look like one of the other rail lines that formed Conrail had a parallel
                      >line which Conrail calls the "Niagara Branch" and this is the line
                      >Conrail chose over the Niagara Falls Secondary what looks like it would
                      >have contained CP 65... this line is mentioned in a couple of other
                      >schedules as connecting to them, just not listed in the ETT.
                      >
                      >Paul :-)
                      >
                      >paul larner wrote:
                      >
                      > > Location of tower 65. Today where the Amtrak trains come in from
                      >Toronto
                      > > they stop for customs just as they come off the bridge. At that point
                      >can
                      > > be seen the remnants ofteh RW&O line which went north to Lewiston and
                      > > further along the lake shore. This point where the lines crossed was
                      >the
                      > > location of NYC tower 65 which seems to have controlled the junction.
                      >For
                      > > reference I use NYC employee timetable No. 7, Buffalo division.
                      > >
                      > > Paul
                      >
                    • Paul Charland
                      Hi Paul, I have a Buffalo article from March 76 Trains Magazine with a map of all the rail lines in the area including the abandoned RW&O line but the
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 5, 2006
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                        Hi Paul,

                        I have a "Buffalo" article from March '76 Trains Magazine with a map of
                        all the rail lines in the area including the abandoned RW&O line but the
                        article is written as an Erie Lackawanna article and only labels EL
                        yards, towers, and points of interest, along with showing what mainlines
                        in the area belong to who at the time (think this was one of the many
                        'day before Conrail' articles that appeared at the time).

                        There has been talk of Niagara Mohawk drilling four more tunnels for
                        more turbines at the original site.

                        paul larner wrote:

                        > Paul,
                        >
                        > Thanks for the references. I neglected to give you the date of the
                        > timetable I used. It was from April 1960. Sometime after the
                        > consolidations, rationalizations and installation of TCS or CTC the term
                        > control point (CP) came into use. There were a number of railroads serving
                        > Niagara Falls in the 60's and earlier. Most remaining consolidated into Con
                        > Rail, obviously an apt road name. Going up there today you can see the
                        > ramnants and road beds of various different routes that converged on the
                        > Falls. The present main track between CP 8, near Black Rock, and the Falls
                        > is a combination of a couple former routes and a bit of relocation too.
                        >
                        > Today there is nothing left downtown where once there was station and
                        > support yards. (I haven't been there in a couple of years; there was a
                        > convention center on part of the former site, now maybe a Casino.) As an
                        > aside an interesting facet of the Falls is the generation of power for the
                        > industries that once huddled along the chasms edge. To accomplish this
                        > tunnels were dug beneath the central city from above the falls to below to
                        > service first the individual industries and then the large tunnel for the
                        > power plant that collapsed some years ago. The tunnels are still there and
                        > today I believe have an impact on how and where the city builds.
                        >
                        > PKL
                      • Paul Charland
                        NYC Tower 65 still existed on Conrail in the 1978 ETT I have, it s the former Boston and Albany tower across from the station in Chatham, NY!
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 5, 2006
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                          NYC Tower 65 still existed on Conrail in the 1978 ETT I have, it's the
                          former Boston and Albany tower across from the station in Chatham, NY!

                          http://www.trainweb.org/rshs/GRS%20-%20Chatham,%20NY.htm

                          Paul :-)
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