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RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?

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  • joseph Klapkowski
    I missed something. What was the GF&M and the NYP&E?
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 11, 2005
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      I missed something. What was the GF&M and the NYP&E?

      >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
      >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
      >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:34:04 -0400
      >
      >Between the Commissioner reports and the newspaper accounts there is no
      >indication that the company acquired any new locomotives between 1876 and
      >1887. In the commissioner reports you can find the number of freight and
      >passenger locomotives, generally a distinction between a six drivered and
      >four drivered respectively, and the capital acount amount.Both Dave's and
      >Gordon's rosters are incomplete and in some measure incorrect. Locomotives
      >were acquired in 1870 (Pioneer and Cayadutta, both 4-4-0), 1871 (Willard J.
      >heacock 4-6-0), 1874 (No. 4, the Dummy 2-4-2T), 1876 (No. 5 described as a
      >4-6-0 when delivered). The next acquisitions were three second hand
      >locomotives acquired for a Pennsylvania road in September 1887. In 1888
      >the
      >company acquired four more second hand locomotives. After that we get into
      >the ara wher records are better available starting with purchased from
      >Schenectady, No. 7, 10, Oregon No 8 (1893), 3 (1894), 6 (1899), 9, 12
      >(1900), 8 (1901). The Mamie was a Cayadutta engine and maintained for
      >several years likely using the No. 11 though it was never owned by the
      >FJ&G.
      >
      >It took a lot of digging to understand the numbering logic between 1892 and
      >1901. Those PA. engines were numberd up to 9, however, except for 1,4,6,7
      >which were put into service for relatively long periods of time there are
      >no
      >pictures (so far), only newspaper references. Some of these remained in
      >the
      >account of the Machine Shop company, a private company owned by the
      >railroad's directors, being leased to the railroad as needed. They seem to
      >have been bought on spec to take advantage of Putman's abilities to rebuild
      >locomotives. Those not needed were resold and eventually led to the
      >contract with NYP&E Co, for whom the company rebuilt around 25 locomotives.
      >During the period of the Foundry and Machine Company, Putman and his shop
      >employees were not on the railroad payroll, but the GF&M Co.
      >
      >There is a reference to another tank engine in 1877, called the "Pony" vis
      >a
      >vis the "Dummy." Because the crisis was resolved almost as soon as the
      >engine appeared on the property it must have been sold or scrapped. There
      >is nothing known other than it was there and had to be rebuilt (Maybe this
      >is the engine in Jerry's picture). It was not capitalized.
      >
      >Someday I'll get this book finished where you can read the whole story.
      >$$$$
      >
      >Paul
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
      > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
      > >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:03:26 +0000
      > >
      > >So Paul, you are saying that the RR Comm reports do not show anything
      >about
      > >engines being acquired between '76 and '87?
      > >
      > > >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
      > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
      > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:09:43 -0400
      > > >
      > > >This may indeed be a picture of the first No. 5 while being delivered.
      >I
      > > >believe locomotive No. 5 came as a 4-6-0, at least the newspaper
      >accounts
      > > >of
      > > >the locomotive delivered January 27, 1876 was a ten wheeler and the
      >fifth
      > > >engine known to have been actually owned by the road. My thinking is
      > >that
      > > >Putman rebuilt the engine into a 2-6-0 in the company shops. Match the
      > > >picture to one of the No 5 to see if the cab, drivers or domes match;
      > > >Putman
      > > >rebuilt everything that needed to be done but more often his rebuilding
      > > >involved the smokeboxes, cylinder cradles and smoke stacks (front end
      > > >work).
      > > >
      > > >While there is reference to a sixth locomotive owned by the road, if
      >not
      > >a
      > > >typo, this may be a reference counting a second hand construction
      > > >locomotive
      > > >whose boiler provided the power and heat supply for the first machine
      > >shop
      > > >and is only referenced in the "sixth locomotive" quote and on the
      >Sanborn
      > > >map done of the shop area immediately after the big fire. An "old
      > > >locomotive" boiler is shown. It is not from one of the known "owned"
      > > >locomotives - Pioneer (David A. Wells, 1st No. 1), Cayadutta, (No. 2),
      >W.
      > > >J.
      > > >Heacock (1st No. 3), No. 4 (the Dummy engine). When the fire occurred
      > > >Putman had done rebuildings of his own engines but there is not record
      > > >either from the commissioner reports or the newspapers of acquisitions
      > > >between 1876 and 1887.
      > > >
      > > >What makes certainty difficult during 1876 is that the Gloversville
      > >papers
      > > >have not been found for the entire year and the Johnstown paper is
      >still
      > > >(five years now) at the State Library waiting, or maybe I'm the only
      >one
      > > >waiting, to be put on microfilm.
      > > >
      > > >Walter McQueen was involved with John Ellis and later became a partner
      >in
      > > >what became the Schenectady Locomotive Works. I think McQueen came
      >from
      > > >the
      > > >Norris Brothers Works who put up the money for the original works at
      > > >Schenectady. Ellis bought control at an opportune time then it became
      > >the
      > > >Ellis Locomotive Works.
      > > >
      > > >Walter McQueen ws the heart of Schenectady Locomotive Works if not the
      > >one
      > > >with the most money invested. For the whole story of Schenectady and
      >its
      > > >locomotive works and the men involved go to Schenectadyhistory.org
      >where
      > > >you
      > > >will find a link to the railroad history or do a google search "McQueen
      > > >Locomotive Works" and click on the Schenectady link.
      > > >
      > > >PKL
      > > >
      > > > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
      > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
      > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:57:41 +0000
      > > > >
      > > > >According to Gordon & Mowers (can not locate Dave's book right now)
      >the
      > > > >FJ&G
      > > > >owned the following locomotives that would fit the time frame:
      > > > >
      > > > ># 4 4-6-0 Cooke Works 1871
      > > > >
      > > > ># 6 McQueen no date (never heard of McQueen other than Steve)
      > > > >
      > > > >The only reason to be in Elmira would be that they were being
      >deliverd
      > > >and
      > > > >came that route......
      > > > >
      > > > > >From: "handyman756" <handyman756@...>
      > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
      > > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:43:40 -0000
      > > > > >
      > > > > >I just bought a group of 7 photos that are supposedly all FJ&G.
      >Six
      > >of
      > > > > >the group are trolleys and obviously correctly identified. The
      > > > > >remaining photo is a shot of an 4-6-0 identified as having been
      >taken
      > > > > >in Elmira NY in 1876. Did the FJ&G ever own a 4-6-0? And if so,
      >any
      > > > > >idea if/why it would have been in Elmira at that time? There is no
      > > > > >identification on the engine that I can see in the picture.
      > > > > >Thanks,
      > > > > >Jerry
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
    • paul larner
      GF&M or GM&F was a company formed by the officers of the FJ&G. I do not know who the principles were of the New York Power and Equipment Co. Did some
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 11, 2005
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        GF&M or GM&F was a company formed by the officers of the FJ&G. I do not
        know who the principles were of the New York Power and Equipment Co. Did
        some searching at the Business library on Madison Ave at 34th but couldn't
        find the company. FJ&G rebuilt 25 or more locomotives on their account in
        the early nineties. Before that GF&M were doing it for themselves. Don't
        recall, if I ever knew, who brokered the second hand locomotives to the FJ&G
        in '87 and '88. Could have been NYP&E. They came to examine Putman's work
        before agreeing to send work to the Gloversville shop. The rebuildings were
        often major for which the shop was well equipped. It was when NYC took over
        the reins that the heavy shop work went elsewhere. After the CE men took
        control the heavy work was not reestablished in Gloversville though the shop
        still did plenty. NYC returned the shop to the railroad's balance sheet,
        thereby removing part of the old directors gravy train. The coal company
        remained separate until 1901, when the CE company finally gave something
        back to the holdouts from the original FJ&G company for they screwing the
        brought on themselves by dealing with the NYC people. The old boys were
        cagey but the got conned pretty good.

        I have wondered where these extra dozen or so locomotives were kept while
        awaiting repairs and whether or not the FJ&G used them in testing afer
        completion. This might account for some of the various odd photos of
        equipment alleged to be on the FJ&G.

        PKL

        >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
        >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
        >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:10:54 +0000
        >
        >I missed something. What was the GF&M and the NYP&E?
        >
        > >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
        > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
        > >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:34:04 -0400
        > >
        > >Between the Commissioner reports and the newspaper accounts there is no
        > >indication that the company acquired any new locomotives between 1876 and
        > >1887. In the commissioner reports you can find the number of freight and
        > >passenger locomotives, generally a distinction between a six drivered and
        > >four drivered respectively, and the capital acount amount.Both Dave's and
        > >Gordon's rosters are incomplete and in some measure incorrect.
        >Locomotives
        > >were acquired in 1870 (Pioneer and Cayadutta, both 4-4-0), 1871 (Willard
        >J.
        > >heacock 4-6-0), 1874 (No. 4, the Dummy 2-4-2T), 1876 (No. 5 described as
        >a
        > >4-6-0 when delivered). The next acquisitions were three second hand
        > >locomotives acquired for a Pennsylvania road in September 1887. In 1888
        > >the
        > >company acquired four more second hand locomotives. After that we get
        >into
        > >the ara wher records are better available starting with purchased from
        > >Schenectady, No. 7, 10, Oregon No 8 (1893), 3 (1894), 6 (1899), 9, 12
        > >(1900), 8 (1901). The Mamie was a Cayadutta engine and maintained for
        > >several years likely using the No. 11 though it was never owned by the
        > >FJ&G.
        > >
        > >It took a lot of digging to understand the numbering logic between 1892
        >and
        > >1901. Those PA. engines were numberd up to 9, however, except for
        >1,4,6,7
        > >which were put into service for relatively long periods of time there are
        > >no
        > >pictures (so far), only newspaper references. Some of these remained in
        > >the
        > >account of the Machine Shop company, a private company owned by the
        > >railroad's directors, being leased to the railroad as needed. They seem
        >to
        > >have been bought on spec to take advantage of Putman's abilities to
        >rebuild
        > >locomotives. Those not needed were resold and eventually led to the
        > >contract with NYP&E Co, for whom the company rebuilt around 25
        >locomotives.
        > >During the period of the Foundry and Machine Company, Putman and his shop
        > >employees were not on the railroad payroll, but the GF&M Co.
        > >
        > >There is a reference to another tank engine in 1877, called the "Pony"
        >vis
        > >a
        > >vis the "Dummy." Because the crisis was resolved almost as soon as the
        > >engine appeared on the property it must have been sold or scrapped.
        >There
        > >is nothing known other than it was there and had to be rebuilt (Maybe
        >this
        > >is the engine in Jerry's picture). It was not capitalized.
        > >
        > >Someday I'll get this book finished where you can read the whole story.
        > >$$$$
        > >
        > >Paul
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
        > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
        > > >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:03:26 +0000
        > > >
        > > >So Paul, you are saying that the RR Comm reports do not show anything
        > >about
        > > >engines being acquired between '76 and '87?
        > > >
        > > > >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
        > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
        > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:09:43 -0400
        > > > >
        > > > >This may indeed be a picture of the first No. 5 while being
        >delivered.
        > >I
        > > > >believe locomotive No. 5 came as a 4-6-0, at least the newspaper
        > >accounts
        > > > >of
        > > > >the locomotive delivered January 27, 1876 was a ten wheeler and the
        > >fifth
        > > > >engine known to have been actually owned by the road. My thinking is
        > > >that
        > > > >Putman rebuilt the engine into a 2-6-0 in the company shops. Match
        >the
        > > > >picture to one of the No 5 to see if the cab, drivers or domes match;
        > > > >Putman
        > > > >rebuilt everything that needed to be done but more often his
        >rebuilding
        > > > >involved the smokeboxes, cylinder cradles and smoke stacks (front end
        > > > >work).
        > > > >
        > > > >While there is reference to a sixth locomotive owned by the road, if
        > >not
        > > >a
        > > > >typo, this may be a reference counting a second hand construction
        > > > >locomotive
        > > > >whose boiler provided the power and heat supply for the first machine
        > > >shop
        > > > >and is only referenced in the "sixth locomotive" quote and on the
        > >Sanborn
        > > > >map done of the shop area immediately after the big fire. An "old
        > > > >locomotive" boiler is shown. It is not from one of the known "owned"
        > > > >locomotives - Pioneer (David A. Wells, 1st No. 1), Cayadutta, (No.
        >2),
        > >W.
        > > > >J.
        > > > >Heacock (1st No. 3), No. 4 (the Dummy engine). When the fire
        >occurred
        > > > >Putman had done rebuildings of his own engines but there is not
        >record
        > > > >either from the commissioner reports or the newspapers of
        >acquisitions
        > > > >between 1876 and 1887.
        > > > >
        > > > >What makes certainty difficult during 1876 is that the Gloversville
        > > >papers
        > > > >have not been found for the entire year and the Johnstown paper is
        > >still
        > > > >(five years now) at the State Library waiting, or maybe I'm the only
        > >one
        > > > >waiting, to be put on microfilm.
        > > > >
        > > > >Walter McQueen was involved with John Ellis and later became a
        >partner
        > >in
        > > > >what became the Schenectady Locomotive Works. I think McQueen came
        > >from
        > > > >the
        > > > >Norris Brothers Works who put up the money for the original works at
        > > > >Schenectady. Ellis bought control at an opportune time then it
        >became
        > > >the
        > > > >Ellis Locomotive Works.
        > > > >
        > > > >Walter McQueen ws the heart of Schenectady Locomotive Works if not
        >the
        > > >one
        > > > >with the most money invested. For the whole story of Schenectady and
        > >its
        > > > >locomotive works and the men involved go to Schenectadyhistory.org
        > >where
        > > > >you
        > > > >will find a link to the railroad history or do a google search
        >"McQueen
        > > > >Locomotive Works" and click on the Schenectady link.
        > > > >
        > > > >PKL
        > > > >
        > > > > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
        > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
        > > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:57:41 +0000
        > > > > >
        > > > > >According to Gordon & Mowers (can not locate Dave's book right now)
        > >the
        > > > > >FJ&G
        > > > > >owned the following locomotives that would fit the time frame:
        > > > > >
        > > > > ># 4 4-6-0 Cooke Works 1871
        > > > > >
        > > > > ># 6 McQueen no date (never heard of McQueen other than Steve)
        > > > > >
        > > > > >The only reason to be in Elmira would be that they were being
        > >deliverd
        > > > >and
        > > > > >came that route......
        > > > > >
        > > > > > >From: "handyman756" <handyman756@...>
        > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
        > > > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:43:40 -0000
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >I just bought a group of 7 photos that are supposedly all FJ&G.
        > >Six
        > > >of
        > > > > > >the group are trolleys and obviously correctly identified. The
        > > > > > >remaining photo is a shot of an 4-6-0 identified as having been
        > >taken
        > > > > > >in Elmira NY in 1876. Did the FJ&G ever own a 4-6-0? And if so,
        > >any
        > > > > > >idea if/why it would have been in Elmira at that time? There is
        >no
        > > > > > >identification on the engine that I can see in the picture.
        > > > > > >Thanks,
        > > > > > >Jerry
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
      • joseph Klapkowski
        Could tyhat be coming into Sammonsville ?
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 13, 2005
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          Could tyhat be coming into Sammonsville ?

          >From: Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...>
          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [FJGRailroad] RE: FJG?
          >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
          >
          >Gentlemen,
          >Another mystery to solve. This is from a group of
          >"local" postcards (supposedly) that I acquired. Can
          >anyone tell if this is the FJ&G, and if so, where the
          >shot may have been taken? I also did a high res scan
          >but blowing it up doesn't show me any detail or
          >landmarks that I can identify.
          >Thanks,
          >Jerry
          >
          >--- Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Gino,
          > > How do you want them?
          > > Jerry
          > >
          > > --- "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Let's see those Jerry!
          > > >
          > > > gino
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > > [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
          > > > On Behalf Of Gerald Snyder
          > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:38 PM
          > > > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > > Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > At least the trolley shots are FJ&G!
          > > > Thanks,
          > > > Jerry
          > > >
          > > > --- paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
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