Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?

Expand Messages
  • joseph Klapkowski
    So Paul, you are saying that the RR Comm reports do not show anything about engines being acquired between 76 and 87?
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      So Paul, you are saying that the RR Comm reports do not show anything about
      engines being acquired between '76 and '87?

      >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
      >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
      >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:09:43 -0400
      >
      >This may indeed be a picture of the first No. 5 while being delivered. I
      >believe locomotive No. 5 came as a 4-6-0, at least the newspaper accounts
      >of
      >the locomotive delivered January 27, 1876 was a ten wheeler and the fifth
      >engine known to have been actually owned by the road. My thinking is that
      >Putman rebuilt the engine into a 2-6-0 in the company shops. Match the
      >picture to one of the No 5 to see if the cab, drivers or domes match;
      >Putman
      >rebuilt everything that needed to be done but more often his rebuilding
      >involved the smokeboxes, cylinder cradles and smoke stacks (front end
      >work).
      >
      >While there is reference to a sixth locomotive owned by the road, if not a
      >typo, this may be a reference counting a second hand construction
      >locomotive
      >whose boiler provided the power and heat supply for the first machine shop
      >and is only referenced in the "sixth locomotive" quote and on the Sanborn
      >map done of the shop area immediately after the big fire. An "old
      >locomotive" boiler is shown. It is not from one of the known "owned"
      >locomotives - Pioneer (David A. Wells, 1st No. 1), Cayadutta, (No. 2), W.
      >J.
      >Heacock (1st No. 3), No. 4 (the Dummy engine). When the fire occurred
      >Putman had done rebuildings of his own engines but there is not record
      >either from the commissioner reports or the newspapers of acquisitions
      >between 1876 and 1887.
      >
      >What makes certainty difficult during 1876 is that the Gloversville papers
      >have not been found for the entire year and the Johnstown paper is still
      >(five years now) at the State Library waiting, or maybe I'm the only one
      >waiting, to be put on microfilm.
      >
      >Walter McQueen was involved with John Ellis and later became a partner in
      >what became the Schenectady Locomotive Works. I think McQueen came from
      >the
      >Norris Brothers Works who put up the money for the original works at
      >Schenectady. Ellis bought control at an opportune time then it became the
      >Ellis Locomotive Works.
      >
      >Walter McQueen ws the heart of Schenectady Locomotive Works if not the one
      >with the most money invested. For the whole story of Schenectady and its
      >locomotive works and the men involved go to Schenectadyhistory.org where
      >you
      >will find a link to the railroad history or do a google search "McQueen
      >Locomotive Works" and click on the Schenectady link.
      >
      >PKL
      >
      > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
      > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
      > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:57:41 +0000
      > >
      > >According to Gordon & Mowers (can not locate Dave's book right now) the
      > >FJ&G
      > >owned the following locomotives that would fit the time frame:
      > >
      > ># 4 4-6-0 Cooke Works 1871
      > >
      > ># 6 McQueen no date (never heard of McQueen other than Steve)
      > >
      > >The only reason to be in Elmira would be that they were being deliverd
      >and
      > >came that route......
      > >
      > > >From: "handyman756" <handyman756@...>
      > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
      > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:43:40 -0000
      > > >
      > > >I just bought a group of 7 photos that are supposedly all FJ&G. Six of
      > > >the group are trolleys and obviously correctly identified. The
      > > >remaining photo is a shot of an 4-6-0 identified as having been taken
      > > >in Elmira NY in 1876. Did the FJ&G ever own a 4-6-0? And if so, any
      > > >idea if/why it would have been in Elmira at that time? There is no
      > > >identification on the engine that I can see in the picture.
      > > >Thanks,
      > > >Jerry
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
    • Dicarlo, Gino
      Let s see those Jerry! gino ... From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gerald Snyder Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Let's see those Jerry!

        gino

        -----Original Message-----
        From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of Gerald Snyder
        Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:38 PM
        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?


        At least the trolley shots are FJ&G!
        Thanks,
        Jerry

        --- paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
      • paul larner
        Between the Commissioner reports and the newspaper accounts there is no indication that the company acquired any new locomotives between 1876 and 1887. In the
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 7, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Between the Commissioner reports and the newspaper accounts there is no
          indication that the company acquired any new locomotives between 1876 and
          1887. In the commissioner reports you can find the number of freight and
          passenger locomotives, generally a distinction between a six drivered and
          four drivered respectively, and the capital acount amount.Both Dave's and
          Gordon's rosters are incomplete and in some measure incorrect. Locomotives
          were acquired in 1870 (Pioneer and Cayadutta, both 4-4-0), 1871 (Willard J.
          heacock 4-6-0), 1874 (No. 4, the Dummy 2-4-2T), 1876 (No. 5 described as a
          4-6-0 when delivered). The next acquisitions were three second hand
          locomotives acquired for a Pennsylvania road in September 1887. In 1888 the
          company acquired four more second hand locomotives. After that we get into
          the ara wher records are better available starting with purchased from
          Schenectady, No. 7, 10, Oregon No 8 (1893), 3 (1894), 6 (1899), 9, 12
          (1900), 8 (1901). The Mamie was a Cayadutta engine and maintained for
          several years likely using the No. 11 though it was never owned by the FJ&G.

          It took a lot of digging to understand the numbering logic between 1892 and
          1901. Those PA. engines were numberd up to 9, however, except for 1,4,6,7
          which were put into service for relatively long periods of time there are no
          pictures (so far), only newspaper references. Some of these remained in the
          account of the Machine Shop company, a private company owned by the
          railroad's directors, being leased to the railroad as needed. They seem to
          have been bought on spec to take advantage of Putman's abilities to rebuild
          locomotives. Those not needed were resold and eventually led to the
          contract with NYP&E Co, for whom the company rebuilt around 25 locomotives.
          During the period of the Foundry and Machine Company, Putman and his shop
          employees were not on the railroad payroll, but the GF&M Co.

          There is a reference to another tank engine in 1877, called the "Pony" vis a
          vis the "Dummy." Because the crisis was resolved almost as soon as the
          engine appeared on the property it must have been sold or scrapped. There
          is nothing known other than it was there and had to be rebuilt (Maybe this
          is the engine in Jerry's picture). It was not capitalized.

          Someday I'll get this book finished where you can read the whole story.
          $$$$

          Paul




          >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
          >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:03:26 +0000
          >
          >So Paul, you are saying that the RR Comm reports do not show anything about
          >engines being acquired between '76 and '87?
          >
          > >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
          > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
          > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:09:43 -0400
          > >
          > >This may indeed be a picture of the first No. 5 while being delivered. I
          > >believe locomotive No. 5 came as a 4-6-0, at least the newspaper accounts
          > >of
          > >the locomotive delivered January 27, 1876 was a ten wheeler and the fifth
          > >engine known to have been actually owned by the road. My thinking is
          >that
          > >Putman rebuilt the engine into a 2-6-0 in the company shops. Match the
          > >picture to one of the No 5 to see if the cab, drivers or domes match;
          > >Putman
          > >rebuilt everything that needed to be done but more often his rebuilding
          > >involved the smokeboxes, cylinder cradles and smoke stacks (front end
          > >work).
          > >
          > >While there is reference to a sixth locomotive owned by the road, if not
          >a
          > >typo, this may be a reference counting a second hand construction
          > >locomotive
          > >whose boiler provided the power and heat supply for the first machine
          >shop
          > >and is only referenced in the "sixth locomotive" quote and on the Sanborn
          > >map done of the shop area immediately after the big fire. An "old
          > >locomotive" boiler is shown. It is not from one of the known "owned"
          > >locomotives - Pioneer (David A. Wells, 1st No. 1), Cayadutta, (No. 2), W.
          > >J.
          > >Heacock (1st No. 3), No. 4 (the Dummy engine). When the fire occurred
          > >Putman had done rebuildings of his own engines but there is not record
          > >either from the commissioner reports or the newspapers of acquisitions
          > >between 1876 and 1887.
          > >
          > >What makes certainty difficult during 1876 is that the Gloversville
          >papers
          > >have not been found for the entire year and the Johnstown paper is still
          > >(five years now) at the State Library waiting, or maybe I'm the only one
          > >waiting, to be put on microfilm.
          > >
          > >Walter McQueen was involved with John Ellis and later became a partner in
          > >what became the Schenectady Locomotive Works. I think McQueen came from
          > >the
          > >Norris Brothers Works who put up the money for the original works at
          > >Schenectady. Ellis bought control at an opportune time then it became
          >the
          > >Ellis Locomotive Works.
          > >
          > >Walter McQueen ws the heart of Schenectady Locomotive Works if not the
          >one
          > >with the most money invested. For the whole story of Schenectady and its
          > >locomotive works and the men involved go to Schenectadyhistory.org where
          > >you
          > >will find a link to the railroad history or do a google search "McQueen
          > >Locomotive Works" and click on the Schenectady link.
          > >
          > >PKL
          > >
          > > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
          > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
          > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:57:41 +0000
          > > >
          > > >According to Gordon & Mowers (can not locate Dave's book right now) the
          > > >FJ&G
          > > >owned the following locomotives that would fit the time frame:
          > > >
          > > ># 4 4-6-0 Cooke Works 1871
          > > >
          > > ># 6 McQueen no date (never heard of McQueen other than Steve)
          > > >
          > > >The only reason to be in Elmira would be that they were being deliverd
          > >and
          > > >came that route......
          > > >
          > > > >From: "handyman756" <handyman756@...>
          > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
          > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:43:40 -0000
          > > > >
          > > > >I just bought a group of 7 photos that are supposedly all FJ&G. Six
          >of
          > > > >the group are trolleys and obviously correctly identified. The
          > > > >remaining photo is a shot of an 4-6-0 identified as having been taken
          > > > >in Elmira NY in 1876. Did the FJ&G ever own a 4-6-0? And if so, any
          > > > >idea if/why it would have been in Elmira at that time? There is no
          > > > >identification on the engine that I can see in the picture.
          > > > >Thanks,
          > > > >Jerry
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
        • Gerald Snyder
          Gino, How do you want them? Jerry ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 8, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Gino,
            How do you want them?
            Jerry

            --- "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...> wrote:

            > Let's see those Jerry!
            >
            > gino
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of Gerald Snyder
            > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:38 PM
            > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
            >
            >
            > At least the trolley shots are FJ&G!
            > Thanks,
            > Jerry
            >
            > --- paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
            >
            >


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com
          • Gerald Snyder
            Gentlemen, Another mystery to solve. This is from a group of local postcards (supposedly) that I acquired. Can anyone tell if this is the FJ&G, and if so,
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 8, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Gentlemen,
              Another mystery to solve. This is from a group of
              "local" postcards (supposedly) that I acquired. Can
              anyone tell if this is the FJ&G, and if so, where the
              shot may have been taken? I also did a high res scan
              but blowing it up doesn't show me any detail or
              landmarks that I can identify.
              Thanks,
              Jerry

              --- Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...> wrote:

              > Gino,
              > How do you want them?
              > Jerry
              >
              > --- "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Let's see those Jerry!
              > >
              > > gino
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
              > > On Behalf Of Gerald Snyder
              > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:38 PM
              > > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
              > >
              > >
              > > At least the trolley shots are FJ&G!
              > > Thanks,
              > > Jerry
              > >
              > > --- paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
              > protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >




              __________________________________
              Yahoo! Mail Mobile
              Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
              http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
            • paul larner
              It appears to be looking in a generally north direction at the high bridge. The FJ&G ran their freight locomotives backwards to Fonda, the creek is where it
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 8, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                It appears to be looking in a generally north direction at the high bridge.
                The FJ&G ran their freight locomotives backwards to Fonda, the creek is
                where it should be, the road and isn't that a bridge above the train. The
                track geometry is correct for the area too. This is one I'd like a hi res
                scan of.

                PKL

                >From: Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...>
                >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [FJGRailroad] RE: FJG?
                >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
                >
                >Gentlemen,
                >Another mystery to solve. This is from a group of
                >"local" postcards (supposedly) that I acquired. Can
                >anyone tell if this is the FJ&G, and if so, where the
                >shot may have been taken? I also did a high res scan
                >but blowing it up doesn't show me any detail or
                >landmarks that I can identify.
                >Thanks,
                >Jerry
                >
                >--- Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Gino,
                > > How do you want them?
                > > Jerry
                > >
                > > --- "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Let's see those Jerry!
                > > >
                > > > gino
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > > [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
                > > > On Behalf Of Gerald Snyder
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:38 PM
                > > > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > At least the trolley shots are FJ&G!
                > > > Thanks,
                > > > Jerry
                > > >
                > > > --- paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > __________________________________________________
                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                > > protection around
                > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >__________________________________
                >Yahoo! Mail Mobile
                >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
                >http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
                ><< Mystery.jpg >>
              • paul larner
                The more I look at it the more certain I am that it is the high bridge. Notivce the road to the right proceeding up the hill across the photo and also you can
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 8, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  The more I look at it the more certain I am that it is the high bridge.
                  Notivce the road to the right proceeding up the hill across the photo and
                  also you can see the Sammonsville road proceeding toward teh location of the
                  bridge and the creek. They all fit the area.

                  PKL

                  >From: Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...>
                  >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [FJGRailroad] RE: FJG?
                  >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
                  >
                  >Gentlemen,
                  >Another mystery to solve. This is from a group of
                  >"local" postcards (supposedly) that I acquired. Can
                  >anyone tell if this is the FJ&G, and if so, where the
                  >shot may have been taken? I also did a high res scan
                  >but blowing it up doesn't show me any detail or
                  >landmarks that I can identify.
                  >Thanks,
                  >Jerry
                  >
                  >--- Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Gino,
                  > > How do you want them?
                  > > Jerry
                  > >
                  > > --- "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Let's see those Jerry!
                  > > >
                  > > > gino
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
                  > > > On Behalf Of Gerald Snyder
                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:38 PM
                  > > > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > At least the trolley shots are FJ&G!
                  > > > Thanks,
                  > > > Jerry
                  > > >
                  > > > --- paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > __________________________________________________
                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                  > > protection around
                  > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >__________________________________
                  >Yahoo! Mail Mobile
                  >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
                  >http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
                  ><< Mystery.jpg >>
                • paul larner
                  Also the tender makes it appear to be locomotive No. 12 putting the photo between 1900 and 1923 PKL
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 8, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Also the tender makes it appear to be locomotive No. 12 putting the photo
                    between 1900 and 1923

                    PKL

                    >From: Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...>
                    >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [FJGRailroad] RE: FJG?
                    >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
                    >
                    >Gentlemen,
                    >Another mystery to solve. This is from a group of
                    >"local" postcards (supposedly) that I acquired. Can
                    >anyone tell if this is the FJ&G, and if so, where the
                    >shot may have been taken? I also did a high res scan
                    >but blowing it up doesn't show me any detail or
                    >landmarks that I can identify.
                    >Thanks,
                    >Jerry
                    >
                    >--- Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Gino,
                    > > How do you want them?
                    > > Jerry
                    > >
                    > > --- "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Let's see those Jerry!
                    > > >
                    > > > gino
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
                    > > > On Behalf Of Gerald Snyder
                    > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:38 PM
                    > > > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > At least the trolley shots are FJ&G!
                    > > > Thanks,
                    > > > Jerry
                    > > >
                    > > > --- paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > __________________________________________________
                    > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                    > > protection around
                    > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >__________________________________
                    >Yahoo! Mail Mobile
                    >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
                    >http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
                    ><< Mystery.jpg >>
                  • joseph Klapkowski
                    I missed something. What was the GF&M and the NYP&E?
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 11, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I missed something. What was the GF&M and the NYP&E?

                      >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
                      >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                      >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:34:04 -0400
                      >
                      >Between the Commissioner reports and the newspaper accounts there is no
                      >indication that the company acquired any new locomotives between 1876 and
                      >1887. In the commissioner reports you can find the number of freight and
                      >passenger locomotives, generally a distinction between a six drivered and
                      >four drivered respectively, and the capital acount amount.Both Dave's and
                      >Gordon's rosters are incomplete and in some measure incorrect. Locomotives
                      >were acquired in 1870 (Pioneer and Cayadutta, both 4-4-0), 1871 (Willard J.
                      >heacock 4-6-0), 1874 (No. 4, the Dummy 2-4-2T), 1876 (No. 5 described as a
                      >4-6-0 when delivered). The next acquisitions were three second hand
                      >locomotives acquired for a Pennsylvania road in September 1887. In 1888
                      >the
                      >company acquired four more second hand locomotives. After that we get into
                      >the ara wher records are better available starting with purchased from
                      >Schenectady, No. 7, 10, Oregon No 8 (1893), 3 (1894), 6 (1899), 9, 12
                      >(1900), 8 (1901). The Mamie was a Cayadutta engine and maintained for
                      >several years likely using the No. 11 though it was never owned by the
                      >FJ&G.
                      >
                      >It took a lot of digging to understand the numbering logic between 1892 and
                      >1901. Those PA. engines were numberd up to 9, however, except for 1,4,6,7
                      >which were put into service for relatively long periods of time there are
                      >no
                      >pictures (so far), only newspaper references. Some of these remained in
                      >the
                      >account of the Machine Shop company, a private company owned by the
                      >railroad's directors, being leased to the railroad as needed. They seem to
                      >have been bought on spec to take advantage of Putman's abilities to rebuild
                      >locomotives. Those not needed were resold and eventually led to the
                      >contract with NYP&E Co, for whom the company rebuilt around 25 locomotives.
                      >During the period of the Foundry and Machine Company, Putman and his shop
                      >employees were not on the railroad payroll, but the GF&M Co.
                      >
                      >There is a reference to another tank engine in 1877, called the "Pony" vis
                      >a
                      >vis the "Dummy." Because the crisis was resolved almost as soon as the
                      >engine appeared on the property it must have been sold or scrapped. There
                      >is nothing known other than it was there and had to be rebuilt (Maybe this
                      >is the engine in Jerry's picture). It was not capitalized.
                      >
                      >Someday I'll get this book finished where you can read the whole story.
                      >$$$$
                      >
                      >Paul
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
                      > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                      > >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:03:26 +0000
                      > >
                      > >So Paul, you are saying that the RR Comm reports do not show anything
                      >about
                      > >engines being acquired between '76 and '87?
                      > >
                      > > >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
                      > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                      > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:09:43 -0400
                      > > >
                      > > >This may indeed be a picture of the first No. 5 while being delivered.
                      >I
                      > > >believe locomotive No. 5 came as a 4-6-0, at least the newspaper
                      >accounts
                      > > >of
                      > > >the locomotive delivered January 27, 1876 was a ten wheeler and the
                      >fifth
                      > > >engine known to have been actually owned by the road. My thinking is
                      > >that
                      > > >Putman rebuilt the engine into a 2-6-0 in the company shops. Match the
                      > > >picture to one of the No 5 to see if the cab, drivers or domes match;
                      > > >Putman
                      > > >rebuilt everything that needed to be done but more often his rebuilding
                      > > >involved the smokeboxes, cylinder cradles and smoke stacks (front end
                      > > >work).
                      > > >
                      > > >While there is reference to a sixth locomotive owned by the road, if
                      >not
                      > >a
                      > > >typo, this may be a reference counting a second hand construction
                      > > >locomotive
                      > > >whose boiler provided the power and heat supply for the first machine
                      > >shop
                      > > >and is only referenced in the "sixth locomotive" quote and on the
                      >Sanborn
                      > > >map done of the shop area immediately after the big fire. An "old
                      > > >locomotive" boiler is shown. It is not from one of the known "owned"
                      > > >locomotives - Pioneer (David A. Wells, 1st No. 1), Cayadutta, (No. 2),
                      >W.
                      > > >J.
                      > > >Heacock (1st No. 3), No. 4 (the Dummy engine). When the fire occurred
                      > > >Putman had done rebuildings of his own engines but there is not record
                      > > >either from the commissioner reports or the newspapers of acquisitions
                      > > >between 1876 and 1887.
                      > > >
                      > > >What makes certainty difficult during 1876 is that the Gloversville
                      > >papers
                      > > >have not been found for the entire year and the Johnstown paper is
                      >still
                      > > >(five years now) at the State Library waiting, or maybe I'm the only
                      >one
                      > > >waiting, to be put on microfilm.
                      > > >
                      > > >Walter McQueen was involved with John Ellis and later became a partner
                      >in
                      > > >what became the Schenectady Locomotive Works. I think McQueen came
                      >from
                      > > >the
                      > > >Norris Brothers Works who put up the money for the original works at
                      > > >Schenectady. Ellis bought control at an opportune time then it became
                      > >the
                      > > >Ellis Locomotive Works.
                      > > >
                      > > >Walter McQueen ws the heart of Schenectady Locomotive Works if not the
                      > >one
                      > > >with the most money invested. For the whole story of Schenectady and
                      >its
                      > > >locomotive works and the men involved go to Schenectadyhistory.org
                      >where
                      > > >you
                      > > >will find a link to the railroad history or do a google search "McQueen
                      > > >Locomotive Works" and click on the Schenectady link.
                      > > >
                      > > >PKL
                      > > >
                      > > > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
                      > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                      > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:57:41 +0000
                      > > > >
                      > > > >According to Gordon & Mowers (can not locate Dave's book right now)
                      >the
                      > > > >FJ&G
                      > > > >owned the following locomotives that would fit the time frame:
                      > > > >
                      > > > ># 4 4-6-0 Cooke Works 1871
                      > > > >
                      > > > ># 6 McQueen no date (never heard of McQueen other than Steve)
                      > > > >
                      > > > >The only reason to be in Elmira would be that they were being
                      >deliverd
                      > > >and
                      > > > >came that route......
                      > > > >
                      > > > > >From: "handyman756" <handyman756@...>
                      > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                      > > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:43:40 -0000
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >I just bought a group of 7 photos that are supposedly all FJ&G.
                      >Six
                      > >of
                      > > > > >the group are trolleys and obviously correctly identified. The
                      > > > > >remaining photo is a shot of an 4-6-0 identified as having been
                      >taken
                      > > > > >in Elmira NY in 1876. Did the FJ&G ever own a 4-6-0? And if so,
                      >any
                      > > > > >idea if/why it would have been in Elmira at that time? There is no
                      > > > > >identification on the engine that I can see in the picture.
                      > > > > >Thanks,
                      > > > > >Jerry
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                    • paul larner
                      GF&M or GM&F was a company formed by the officers of the FJ&G. I do not know who the principles were of the New York Power and Equipment Co. Did some
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 11, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        GF&M or GM&F was a company formed by the officers of the FJ&G. I do not
                        know who the principles were of the New York Power and Equipment Co. Did
                        some searching at the Business library on Madison Ave at 34th but couldn't
                        find the company. FJ&G rebuilt 25 or more locomotives on their account in
                        the early nineties. Before that GF&M were doing it for themselves. Don't
                        recall, if I ever knew, who brokered the second hand locomotives to the FJ&G
                        in '87 and '88. Could have been NYP&E. They came to examine Putman's work
                        before agreeing to send work to the Gloversville shop. The rebuildings were
                        often major for which the shop was well equipped. It was when NYC took over
                        the reins that the heavy shop work went elsewhere. After the CE men took
                        control the heavy work was not reestablished in Gloversville though the shop
                        still did plenty. NYC returned the shop to the railroad's balance sheet,
                        thereby removing part of the old directors gravy train. The coal company
                        remained separate until 1901, when the CE company finally gave something
                        back to the holdouts from the original FJ&G company for they screwing the
                        brought on themselves by dealing with the NYC people. The old boys were
                        cagey but the got conned pretty good.

                        I have wondered where these extra dozen or so locomotives were kept while
                        awaiting repairs and whether or not the FJ&G used them in testing afer
                        completion. This might account for some of the various odd photos of
                        equipment alleged to be on the FJ&G.

                        PKL

                        >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
                        >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                        >Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 05:10:54 +0000
                        >
                        >I missed something. What was the GF&M and the NYP&E?
                        >
                        > >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
                        > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                        > >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 00:34:04 -0400
                        > >
                        > >Between the Commissioner reports and the newspaper accounts there is no
                        > >indication that the company acquired any new locomotives between 1876 and
                        > >1887. In the commissioner reports you can find the number of freight and
                        > >passenger locomotives, generally a distinction between a six drivered and
                        > >four drivered respectively, and the capital acount amount.Both Dave's and
                        > >Gordon's rosters are incomplete and in some measure incorrect.
                        >Locomotives
                        > >were acquired in 1870 (Pioneer and Cayadutta, both 4-4-0), 1871 (Willard
                        >J.
                        > >heacock 4-6-0), 1874 (No. 4, the Dummy 2-4-2T), 1876 (No. 5 described as
                        >a
                        > >4-6-0 when delivered). The next acquisitions were three second hand
                        > >locomotives acquired for a Pennsylvania road in September 1887. In 1888
                        > >the
                        > >company acquired four more second hand locomotives. After that we get
                        >into
                        > >the ara wher records are better available starting with purchased from
                        > >Schenectady, No. 7, 10, Oregon No 8 (1893), 3 (1894), 6 (1899), 9, 12
                        > >(1900), 8 (1901). The Mamie was a Cayadutta engine and maintained for
                        > >several years likely using the No. 11 though it was never owned by the
                        > >FJ&G.
                        > >
                        > >It took a lot of digging to understand the numbering logic between 1892
                        >and
                        > >1901. Those PA. engines were numberd up to 9, however, except for
                        >1,4,6,7
                        > >which were put into service for relatively long periods of time there are
                        > >no
                        > >pictures (so far), only newspaper references. Some of these remained in
                        > >the
                        > >account of the Machine Shop company, a private company owned by the
                        > >railroad's directors, being leased to the railroad as needed. They seem
                        >to
                        > >have been bought on spec to take advantage of Putman's abilities to
                        >rebuild
                        > >locomotives. Those not needed were resold and eventually led to the
                        > >contract with NYP&E Co, for whom the company rebuilt around 25
                        >locomotives.
                        > >During the period of the Foundry and Machine Company, Putman and his shop
                        > >employees were not on the railroad payroll, but the GF&M Co.
                        > >
                        > >There is a reference to another tank engine in 1877, called the "Pony"
                        >vis
                        > >a
                        > >vis the "Dummy." Because the crisis was resolved almost as soon as the
                        > >engine appeared on the property it must have been sold or scrapped.
                        >There
                        > >is nothing known other than it was there and had to be rebuilt (Maybe
                        >this
                        > >is the engine in Jerry's picture). It was not capitalized.
                        > >
                        > >Someday I'll get this book finished where you can read the whole story.
                        > >$$$$
                        > >
                        > >Paul
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
                        > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                        > > >Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 04:03:26 +0000
                        > > >
                        > > >So Paul, you are saying that the RR Comm reports do not show anything
                        > >about
                        > > >engines being acquired between '76 and '87?
                        > > >
                        > > > >From: "paul larner" <pklarner@...>
                        > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                        > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 00:09:43 -0400
                        > > > >
                        > > > >This may indeed be a picture of the first No. 5 while being
                        >delivered.
                        > >I
                        > > > >believe locomotive No. 5 came as a 4-6-0, at least the newspaper
                        > >accounts
                        > > > >of
                        > > > >the locomotive delivered January 27, 1876 was a ten wheeler and the
                        > >fifth
                        > > > >engine known to have been actually owned by the road. My thinking is
                        > > >that
                        > > > >Putman rebuilt the engine into a 2-6-0 in the company shops. Match
                        >the
                        > > > >picture to one of the No 5 to see if the cab, drivers or domes match;
                        > > > >Putman
                        > > > >rebuilt everything that needed to be done but more often his
                        >rebuilding
                        > > > >involved the smokeboxes, cylinder cradles and smoke stacks (front end
                        > > > >work).
                        > > > >
                        > > > >While there is reference to a sixth locomotive owned by the road, if
                        > >not
                        > > >a
                        > > > >typo, this may be a reference counting a second hand construction
                        > > > >locomotive
                        > > > >whose boiler provided the power and heat supply for the first machine
                        > > >shop
                        > > > >and is only referenced in the "sixth locomotive" quote and on the
                        > >Sanborn
                        > > > >map done of the shop area immediately after the big fire. An "old
                        > > > >locomotive" boiler is shown. It is not from one of the known "owned"
                        > > > >locomotives - Pioneer (David A. Wells, 1st No. 1), Cayadutta, (No.
                        >2),
                        > >W.
                        > > > >J.
                        > > > >Heacock (1st No. 3), No. 4 (the Dummy engine). When the fire
                        >occurred
                        > > > >Putman had done rebuildings of his own engines but there is not
                        >record
                        > > > >either from the commissioner reports or the newspapers of
                        >acquisitions
                        > > > >between 1876 and 1887.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >What makes certainty difficult during 1876 is that the Gloversville
                        > > >papers
                        > > > >have not been found for the entire year and the Johnstown paper is
                        > >still
                        > > > >(five years now) at the State Library waiting, or maybe I'm the only
                        > >one
                        > > > >waiting, to be put on microfilm.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >Walter McQueen was involved with John Ellis and later became a
                        >partner
                        > >in
                        > > > >what became the Schenectady Locomotive Works. I think McQueen came
                        > >from
                        > > > >the
                        > > > >Norris Brothers Works who put up the money for the original works at
                        > > > >Schenectady. Ellis bought control at an opportune time then it
                        >became
                        > > >the
                        > > > >Ellis Locomotive Works.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >Walter McQueen ws the heart of Schenectady Locomotive Works if not
                        >the
                        > > >one
                        > > > >with the most money invested. For the whole story of Schenectady and
                        > >its
                        > > > >locomotive works and the men involved go to Schenectadyhistory.org
                        > >where
                        > > > >you
                        > > > >will find a link to the railroad history or do a google search
                        >"McQueen
                        > > > >Locomotive Works" and click on the Schenectady link.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >PKL
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >From: "joseph Klapkowski" <riverlinejoe@...>
                        > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > >Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                        > > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:57:41 +0000
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >According to Gordon & Mowers (can not locate Dave's book right now)
                        > >the
                        > > > > >FJ&G
                        > > > > >owned the following locomotives that would fit the time frame:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > ># 4 4-6-0 Cooke Works 1871
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > ># 6 McQueen no date (never heard of McQueen other than Steve)
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >The only reason to be in Elmira would be that they were being
                        > >deliverd
                        > > > >and
                        > > > > >came that route......
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > >From: "handyman756" <handyman756@...>
                        > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                        > > > > > >Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 01:43:40 -0000
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >I just bought a group of 7 photos that are supposedly all FJ&G.
                        > >Six
                        > > >of
                        > > > > > >the group are trolleys and obviously correctly identified. The
                        > > > > > >remaining photo is a shot of an 4-6-0 identified as having been
                        > >taken
                        > > > > > >in Elmira NY in 1876. Did the FJ&G ever own a 4-6-0? And if so,
                        > >any
                        > > > > > >idea if/why it would have been in Elmira at that time? There is
                        >no
                        > > > > > >identification on the engine that I can see in the picture.
                        > > > > > >Thanks,
                        > > > > > >Jerry
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                      • joseph Klapkowski
                        Could tyhat be coming into Sammonsville ?
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 13, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Could tyhat be coming into Sammonsville ?

                          >From: Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...>
                          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: [FJGRailroad] RE: FJG?
                          >Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 20:45:20 -0700 (PDT)
                          >
                          >Gentlemen,
                          >Another mystery to solve. This is from a group of
                          >"local" postcards (supposedly) that I acquired. Can
                          >anyone tell if this is the FJ&G, and if so, where the
                          >shot may have been taken? I also did a high res scan
                          >but blowing it up doesn't show me any detail or
                          >landmarks that I can identify.
                          >Thanks,
                          >Jerry
                          >
                          >--- Gerald Snyder <handyman756@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Gino,
                          > > How do you want them?
                          > > Jerry
                          > >
                          > > --- "Dicarlo, Gino" <Gino.Dicarlo@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Let's see those Jerry!
                          > > >
                          > > > gino
                          > > >
                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > From: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > [mailto:FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com]
                          > > > On Behalf Of Gerald Snyder
                          > > > Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2005 11:38 PM
                          > > > To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] 4-6-0 ?
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > At least the trolley shots are FJ&G!
                          > > > Thanks,
                          > > > Jerry
                          > > >
                          > > > --- paul larner <pklarner@...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________________________
                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                          > > protection around
                          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >__________________________________
                          >Yahoo! Mail Mobile
                          >Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
                          >http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail
                          ><< Mystery.jpg >>
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.