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RE: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records

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  • Russell Houlton
    I know that s not the way we do things now, but I m not aware of a doctrinal reason why it wouldn t be valid. Although it would be kinda messy to bestow the
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 1, 2003
      I know that's not the way we do things now, but I'm not aware of a doctrinal
      reason why it wouldn't be valid. Although it would be kinda messy to bestow
      the priesthood on a female proxy. Sealings could be even more interesting.
      <grin>

      -----Original Message-----
      From:
      sentto-3934757-5024-1064979972-R_Houlton=compuserve.com@....y
      ahoo.com
      [mailto:sentto-3934757-5024-1064979972-R_Houlton=compuserve.com@returns.
      groups.yahoo.com]On Behalf Of Paula at Ohana Software
      Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 12:56 PM
      To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records



      Richard,

      I have a grandmother that was baptized with her husband as proxy in the
      Mississippi River also. When I questioned the people at the Library they
      told me that even though it was done by her husband as proxy, it was valid.
      Have they changed the policy on that? I thought at the time that it was
      strange that it didn't need to be redone.

      Paula
    • Snow, Donald R.
      Joan, I m interested to know about this set and what the ad says. Is it online somewhere? There is a new 7-volume set of books that Susan Easton-Black
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 1, 2003
        Joan, I'm interested to know about this set and what the ad says. Is it
        online somewhere? There is a new 7-volume set of books that Susan
        Easton-Black published last year about the Nauvoo Baptisms for the Dead
        done in the Mississippi River, but I wasn't aware of a new set on the
        Nauvoo Temple ordinances. There is a one-volume book containing the Nauvoo
        endowments and I've seen that in the FHL and on fiche in many FHC's, but
        I'm interested to know what else is coming out. I try to get stuff like
        that listed in my online notes on LDS and Utah Records. My notes are
        posted on www.familyhistorycenter.org .

        Don Snow

        At 01:41 PM 9/30/2003, Joan Raney wrote:
        >I recently saw an advertisement for a set of books containing the
        >temple ordinances of the old Nauvoo temple. I wonder if this temple
        >work is shown on the IIGI.
        >
        >Joan Raney
        >raneyj@...
        >I'm trying to cut back. Now I only do genealogy
        >on days that end with a "Y."
        >
        >
        >
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        Dr. Donald R. Snow, Dept of Mathematics, Brigham Young University, Provo,
        Utah 84602 (office phone (801) 422-2366, home phone in Provo (801)
        225-7123), snowd@..., drs31@... -- temporarily on a Family
        History Mission at St. George Regional Family History Center, St. George,
        Utah (home phone in St. George (435) 673-1932)
      • carolacox@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/1/03 10:06:17 AM Mountain Daylight Time, ... Don -- I can t seem to find your note on LDS and Utah Records at your FHC website. How can
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 1, 2003
          In a message dated 10/1/03 10:06:17 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
          snowd@... writes:

          > try to get stuff like
          > that listed in my online notes on LDS and Utah Records. My notes are
          > posted on www.familyhistorycenter.org .
          >
          > Don Snow
          >

          Don -- I can't seem to find your note on LDS and Utah Records at your FHC
          website. How can I access it?
          Carol Cox


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Snow, Donald R.
          Carol, you can get to my LDS and Utah Records notes (and several others) in two ways on www.familyhistorycenter.org. One way is under the 5-day FH Training,
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 1, 2003
            Carol, you can get to my LDS and Utah Records notes (and several others) in
            two ways on www.familyhistorycenter.org. One way is under the 5-day FH
            Training, Details of Classes, Online Notes 15 LDS & Utah Records, and the
            other way is under Descriptions of Courses. Let me know if you still can't
            find them.

            Don

            At 10:15 AM 10/1/2003, carolacox@... wrote:
            >In a message dated 10/1/03 10:06:17 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
            >snowd@... writes:
            >
            > > try to get stuff like
            > > that listed in my online notes on LDS and Utah Records. My notes are
            > > posted on www.familyhistorycenter.org .
            > >
            > > Don Snow
            > >
            >
            >Don -- I can't seem to find your note on LDS and Utah Records at your FHC
            >website. How can I access it?
            >Carol Cox
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
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            Dr. Donald R. Snow, Dept of Mathematics, Brigham Young University, Provo,
            Utah 84602 (snowd@..., drs31@..., home phone in Provo (801)
            225-7123) -- temporarily on a Family History Mission at St. George Regional
            Family History Center, St. George, Utah (home phone in St. George (435)
            673-1932)
          • Joan Raney
            ... That 7-volume set you described sounds like the books I saw advertised. I reckon I didn t study it close enough to see the baptisms were not done in the
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 1, 2003
              On 1 Oct 2003 at 9:58, Snow, Donald R. wrote:

              > Joan, I'm interested to know about this set and what the ad says. Is
              > it online somewhere? There is a new 7-volume set of books that Susan
              > Easton-Black published last year about the Nauvoo Baptisms for the
              > Dead done in the Mississippi River, but I wasn't aware of a new set on
              > the Nauvoo Temple ordinances.

              That 7-volume set you described sounds like the books I saw
              advertised. I reckon I didn't study it close enough to see the
              baptisms were not done in the temple, I saw the word Nauvoo and
              thought they were done there.

              Joan Raney
              raneyj@...
              I'm trying to cut back. Now I only do genealogy
              on days that end with a "Y."
            • Richard L. Halliday
              Paula; When I have a question such as the one discussed below, my polocy is to telephone the Family History Department and tell the receptionist that I have a
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 1, 2003
                Paula;

                When I have a question such as the one discussed below, my polocy is to
                telephone the Family History Department and tell the receptionist that I
                have a sealing (or whatever is appropriate) question. I have found that I
                can get many "opinions" from other workers at the local FHCs, but
                knowledgeable answers are often scarce.

                If by "library" you meant the Family History Library in Salt Lake City,
                then I find that usually the "opinions" are better, but still not always
                accurate.

                Just my way of doing things.

                That is why I telephoned the Family History Department and got myself
                transferred to the appropriate desk. I was definitely told that the work
                must be done by the same gender. That still leaves open the question of
                doing work when the gender is not known. And I have one of those.

                Richard --


                -----Original Message-----
                From: R_Houlton@... [mailto:R_Houlton@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 2:50 AM
                To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records


                I know that's not the way we do things now, but I'm not aware of a doctrinal
                reason why it wouldn't be valid. Although it would be kinda messy to bestow
                the priesthood on a female proxy. Sealings could be even more interesting.
                <grin>

                -----Original Message-----
                From:
                sentto-3934757-5024-1064979972-R_Houlton=compuserve.com@....y
                ahoo.com
                [mailto:sentto-3934757-5024-1064979972-R_Houlton=compuserve.com@returns.
                groups.yahoo.com]On Behalf Of Paula at Ohana Software
                Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 12:56 PM
                To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records



                Richard,

                I have a grandmother that was baptized with her husband as proxy in the
                Mississippi River also. When I questioned the people at the Library they
                told me that even though it was done by her husband as proxy, it was valid.
                Have they changed the policy on that? I thought at the time that it was
                strange that it didn't need to be redone.

                Paula




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              • Russell Houlton
                ... Was the question based on doing work now or the acceptability of work done in the church s early history? The answer might be different.
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
                  >>> I was definitely told that the work must be done by the same gender. <<<

                  Was the question based on doing work now or the acceptability of work done
                  in the church's early history? The answer might be different.
                • Paula at Ohana Software
                  When I asked the question at the FHL, it was specific for the Nauvoo River Baptisms. I asked the question at least 20 years ago. The library worker answered
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
                    When I asked the question at the FHL, it was specific for the Nauvoo River Baptisms. I asked the question at least 20 years ago. The library worker answered it specifically for the Nauvoo River Baptisms. My great great grandmother for whom the work was done has had her work done way too many times since then as I suppose most of those baptized then have. I think the Nauvoo River Baptisms are the only case in which men were baptized for women and vice versa. A lack of understanding of the principle, I presume.

                    Paula
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Russell Houlton
                    To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:22 AM
                    Subject: RE: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records


                    >>> I was definitely told that the work must be done by the same gender. <<<

                    Was the question based on doing work now or the acceptability of work done
                    in the church's early history? The answer might be different.





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jim Guest
                    Subject: RE: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records I was definitely told that the work must be done by the same gender.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
                      Subject: RE: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records


                      I was definitely told that the work must be done by the same gender. <<<
                      ===================================

                      Personally, if I had any doubt about the validity of an ordinance of a
                      family member, I would have it done again in the manner we know to be valid.
                      There was a lot of confusion about this when it was first revealed and some
                      folks got the cart ahead of the horse.

                      Jim Guest
                    • Jill A. Holmes
                      What would we put in the Temple Code for these ordinances? I see there is Other in the PAF program. I have a few of these. Jill A. Holmes
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
                        What would we put in the Temple Code for these ordinances? I see
                        there is 'Other' in the PAF program. I have a few of these.
                        Jill A. Holmes
                        linkingfamilies@...
                        FHC Director - San Bernardino, CA

                        Subject: Re: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records


                        > When I asked the question at the FHL, it was specific for the Nauvoo
                        River Baptisms. I asked the question at least 20 years ago. The
                        library worker answered it specifically for the Nauvoo River Baptisms.
                        My great great grandmother for whom the work was done has had her work
                        done way too many times since then as I suppose most of those baptized
                        then have. I think the Nauvoo River Baptisms are the only case in
                        which men were baptized for women and vice versa. A lack of
                        understanding of the principle, I presume.
                        >
                        > Paula
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Russell Houlton
                        > To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 11:22 AM
                        > Subject: RE: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records
                        >
                        >
                        > >>> I was definitely told that the work must be done by the same
                        gender. <<<
                        >
                        > Was the question based on doing work now or the acceptability of
                        work done
                        > in the church's early history? The answer might be different.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Gary Templeman
                        It does bring up an interesting question - what exactly is the underlying principle? While not an ordinance in the typical sense, the atonement certainly
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 2, 2003
                          It does bring up an interesting question - what exactly is the underlying
                          principle? While not an "ordinance" in the typical sense, the atonement
                          certainly uses the concept that one person (Christ) can do something on
                          behalf of another as a proxy without it being gender-specific. Whether it be
                          plural marriage, the Word of Wisdom changing from a recommendation to a
                          commandment, or changes in wording in the Endowment, the *application* of a
                          principle is often modified to fit the circumstances, even while the core
                          doctrine remains unchanged. There are probably many valid reasons now for
                          requiring gender specificity for the actual performance of the ordinance,
                          but those reasons may not have applied at that time.

                          Gary Templeman

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Paula at Ohana Software" <paula@...>
                          To: <FHCNET@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2003 12:12 PM
                          Subject: Re: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records


                          > When I asked the question at the FHL, it was specific for the Nauvoo River
                          Baptisms. I asked the question at least 20 years ago. The library worker
                          answered it specifically for the Nauvoo River Baptisms. My great great
                          grandmother for whom the work was done has had her work done way too many
                          times since then as I suppose most of those baptized then have. I think the
                          Nauvoo River Baptisms are the only case in which men were baptized for women
                          and vice versa. A lack of understanding of the principle, I presume.
                          >
                          > Paula
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          >
                        • Russell Houlton
                          ... done way too many times since then as I suppose most of those baptized then have.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 3, 2003
                            >>>My great great grandmother for whom the work was done has had her work
                            done way too many times since then as I suppose most of those baptized then
                            have.<<<

                            So it's more of a case of choosing which one to enter. <g> I think I'd
                            enter the Nauvoo River one and notate a second "valid" one just to make
                            everyone happy. Or maybe list the "valid" and list the Nauvoo River as a
                            note.

                            I'm sure the Nauvoo River baptism is of historical interest if nothing else,
                            and the other "valid" will satisfy anyone who questions the Nauvoo one.

                            I agree with Jim that I'd probably re-do any family members that I had a
                            question about - especially if I was running short on names to do. <g>
                          • Richard L. Halliday
                            Paula; I am not sure whether I have answered this message. This morning I found 102 messages waiting and about 50 previously not dealt with. I am very sure
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 4, 2003
                              Paula;


                              I am not sure whether I have answered this message. This morning I found
                              102 messages waiting and about 50 previously not dealt with.

                              I am very sure that when the proxy is not the same gender as the individual
                              for whom the work is done that it must be redone. If you want to be certain
                              then I suggest that you telephone 1-800-346-6055. When the receptionist
                              answers ask for the Submissions Desk. The people on the "floor" are
                              frequently missionaries who have limited knowledge.

                              Richard L. Halliday

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Paula at Ohana Software [mailto:paula@...]
                              Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 3:56 PM
                              To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records


                              Richard,

                              I have a grandmother that was baptized with her husband as proxy in the
                              Mississippi River also. When I questioned the people at the Library they
                              told me that even though it was done by her husband as proxy, it was valid.
                              Have they changed the policy on that? I thought at the time that it was
                              strange that it didn't need to be redone.

                              Paula
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Richard L. Halliday
                              To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com ; raneyj@...
                              Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 3:27 PM
                              Subject: RE: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records


                              There are two microfilms containing information from that period.
                              One of
                              the microfilms is for the Nauvoo Temple. The other one is for the
                              Mississippi River. Only recently I found that I have ancestors who did
                              work
                              there.

                              I called Salt Lake about this very thing. These data have not been
                              extracted and transferred into the IGI/OI. That extraction may, I am no
                              longer sure, be in progress.

                              I ordered the microfilm. When I found the entry in which I was
                              interested
                              I found that my great-great aunt had been baptized for her grandmother and
                              her grandfather. The baptism done for her grandmother ("grandmother"
                              Newman) is valid. I have the opportunity to redo the work for her
                              grandfather James Newman. Her husband did the confirmation

                              Richard L. Halliday

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Joan Raney [mailto:raneyj@...]
                              Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 12:42 PM
                              To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [FHCNET] Nauvoo temple records


                              I recently saw an advertisement for a set of books containing the
                              temple ordinances of the old Nauvoo temple. I wonder if this temple
                              work is shown on the IIGI.

                              Joan Raney
                              raneyj@...
                              I'm trying to cut back. Now I only do genealogy
                              on days that end with a "Y."



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