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Re: [FHCNET] FamilySearch Affiliate Information Sharing

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  • Sue Maxwell
    Tim it may not be possible but, for those of us that have Ancestry.com subscriptions it certainly would be great if you could get them to allow access to their
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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      Tim it may not be possible but, for those of us that have Ancestry.com
      subscriptions it certainly would be great if you could get them to allow
      access to their user submitted pictures and other images. We currently
      link them to our family file that we have uploaded. I'm sure it works
      quite similar to what you have in mind. I hate having to keep track in
      so many different locations and programs and websites.

      I think the whole process would be wonderful, it would probably resolve
      a lot of duplication and effort. Then we could focus more on what we are
      charged to do....take those "new" ancestors to the temple!

      BTW, RootsMagic already links photos and other images to your family
      files so adding an additional link to allow links to online images would
      probably be extremely easy for Bruce Buzbee to do. Have him test it out
      for you.

      SueM

      timothygcross wrote:
      >
      >
      > This is an example of a post that I would like feedback on regarding
      > the affiliates.
      >
      > We are exploring a concept around openly sharing information, images,
      > sites, etc., in the FamilySearch Community. The idea is that when
      > something is posted or published on FamilySearch or on an affiliate
      > site, this information is immediately accessible through any of the
      > affiliate software products or services. One example of this is
      > www.photoloom.com.
      >
      > www.photoloom.com is a site where we are able to upload pictures of
      > our ancestors. Since www.photoloom.com is an affiliate, we are able to
      > log into nFS from this site and access the FamilySearch Tree. This
      > tree information is then used to identify persons in the photos. Once
      > our ancestors are identified in the pictures, this information is made
      > available to the FamilySearch Community via the FS Person ID. Imagine
      > pictures of your ancestors on every pedigree draw by FamilySearch or
      > an Affiliate. An example of this is www.TreeSeek.com.
      >
      > www.TreeSeek.com is an affiliate that generates charts from nFS. For
      > the 4-generation charts with pictures, www.TreeSeek.com uses nFS to
      > create the tree and then accesses the pictures on www.photoloom.com
      > identified for each ancestor. The result is a nice 4-generation chart
      > using nFS tree information coupled with photos from www.photoloom.com.
      >
      > My questions for the group include:
      > 1. Is the FamilySearch Community concept appealing?
      > 2. Are there sites you would like to see become part of the
      > FamilySearch Community?
      > 3. Do you think this particular example of photo tagging is something
      > youth would engage in? Youth currently do similar tagging of photos on
      > facebook, just not for their ancestors.
      >
      > Thank you for your consideration.
      >
      > Tim
      >
      > p.s. Should we set up a different group to discuss these types of
      > posts? Or, is it "ok" on FHCNet?
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gary Templeman
      I think it is a wonderful concept that will be difficult to properly implement. As has been alluded to, nFS currently still has MAJOR problems with records
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 1, 2010
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        I think it is a wonderful concept that will be difficult to properly
        implement. As has been alluded to, nFS currently still has MAJOR problems
        with records that are combinations of people who are NOT the same. Until
        that issue is resolved, attaching pictures just adds to the complexity. When
        there are records in nFS that have such problems as age ranges for
        birthdates spanning over a hundred years, people combined with a parent or
        grandparent of the same name and so on I foresee images as a huge source of
        contention.

        As an example, consider what might happen if someone adds a picture for John
        Doe (who has his son, John Jr. combined in error). When someone else later
        (properly) uncombines Jr., WHO does the picture stay attached to? Or do you
        duplicate the picture and have it travel with both records, one of which is
        wrong? Will you only allow the original uploader to delete or correct a
        picture attachment error?

        In the current system, one cannot edit another person's submission, only add
        another opinion or dispute. While there are some advantages to having a
        situation where information is never removed, carrying that same principle
        into pictures means there will be a lot of opinions like, "The picture
        attached to PID xyz is NOT really Aunt Sally".

        I do think it would be a wonderful addition for settled lines where everyone
        is in agreement on the pedigree. But unless you can keep pictures out of the
        mixed up lines, or have some way to enforce some kind of strict
        documentation that the picture really is the claimed person, I say that your
        resources are better spent elsewhere. I believe it would be more prudent to
        fix the current problems before moving on to something new that will suffer
        the same flaw.

        Gary Templeman

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "timothygcross" <timothygcross@...>
        To: <FHCNET@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 6:24 AM
        Subject: [FHCNET] FamilySearch Affiliate Information Sharing


        > This is an example of a post that I would like feedback on regarding the
        > affiliates.
        <snip> One example of this is www.photoloom.com.
        >
        > www.photoloom.com is a site where we are able to upload pictures of our
        > ancestors. Since www.photoloom.com is an affiliate, we are able to log
        > into nFS from this site and access the FamilySearch Tree. This tree
        > information is then used to identify persons in the photos. Once our
        > ancestors are identified in the pictures, this information is made
        > available to the FamilySearch Community via the FS Person ID. Imagine
        > pictures of your ancestors on every pedigree draw by FamilySearch or an
        > Affiliate.
      • Russell Hltn
        ... #3, Maybe at some point. I m cautious right now for reasons I ll make clear. #2, Findagrave.com. It already has a large collection of headstone photos.
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 2, 2010
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          On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:24 AM, timothygcross <timothygcross@...> wrote:
          > My questions for the group include:
          > 1.  Is the FamilySearch Community concept appealing?
          > 2.  Are there sites you would like to see become part of the FamilySearch Community?
          > 3.  Do you think this particular example of photo tagging is something youth would engage in?  Youth currently do similar tagging of photos on facebook, just not for their ancestors.
          >

          #3, Maybe at some point. I'm cautious right now for reasons I'll make clear.
          #2, Findagrave.com. It already has a large collection of headstone
          photos. It does have some genealogy lines, but it doesn't handle it
          all that well and it's a secondary purpose of the site.
          #1, Yes, with reservations. One has to consider all the ways that
          people use, abuse, and get bent out of shape about. One would need to
          craft some kind of policy about how to handle things.

          Some issues I've seen or at least heard of:
          - Someone will take photos from the site and post it elsewhere without
          permission. (Technically illegal due to copyright restrictions.)

          - Someone will take photos from other sites and post it to nFS without
          proper permission.

          - Someone will post "documents" using the photo feature.

          - Someone will post generic photos - such as the steamship they
          crossed over on, or a Purple Heart for a soldier was was awarded one.

          - Sooner or later someone will upload something offensive. Perhaps
          blatantly offensive, or at least upsetting - such as a criminal mug
          shot. Or perhaps a post-mortem photo.

          - Someone will upload a photo that someone disputes as being the wrong person.

          - What about photos uploaded with large "copyright" messages or watermarks?

          In short, any stupid thing you can think of WILL happen. Some
          reasonable, some "out there".

          For myself, I think I'd like the option to restrict the photo. For
          example,it would only be visible to those "of blood". It wouldn't be
          visible to looky-loos.

          To avoid the problem when a person is "split", I'd suggest that a
          photo be attached to only one singular person ID. That way, the
          person could only be combined, never split.
        • Marian Johnson
          TreeSeek doesn t know how to handle diacritics for names and places in foreign languages. It leaves these letters out altogether.
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 2, 2010
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            TreeSeek doesn't know how to handle diacritics for names and places in foreign languages. It leaves these letters out altogether.

            --- In FHCNET@yahoogroups.com, Tim Cross <timothygcross@...> wrote:
            >
            > The interesting thing about affiliate sites is the more traffic they see, the more options they have to make the site free while making money via ads or something else.
            > Photoloom currently charges an annual fee.  
            > TreeSeek is currently free.  The pdf files that TreeSeek creates can be saved, shared (email, etc.), or printed out.  
            > I recently emailed a 9-generation chart to my ward consultant who is much better at research than I am.  Within a week she showed up at my door with hardcopy printouts of sources that extended one of my end-of-lines.  FH Consultants are awesome!
            > Tim
            >
          • Tim Cross
            Thank you!  Thank you!  Thank you!  Very good discussion thread.  I think personal genealogy websites could be part of this. I know it isn t exactly what
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 2, 2010
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              Thank you!  Thank you!  Thank you!  Very good discussion thread. 
              I think personal genealogy websites could be part of this.
              I know it isn't exactly what you are requesting but footnote is working with us.  I created a couple of simple pages for a few of my ancestors to get a feel for how things might work:  http://www.footnote.com/page/110457803_john_henry_cross/Note the link to nFS.  We are working to make this integration much tighter.
              Tim


              --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Venita Roylance <venitar@...> wrote:

              From: Venita Roylance <venitar@...>
              Subject: Re: [FHCNET] FamilySearch Affiliate Information Sharing
              To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:06 AM

              Hi Tim,

              This kind of service will be excellent for the half of the church members who are first or second generation members who truly don't link into anybody that is already in the nFS database who has multiple problems in their ancestral families.  For the other half of us, there is still a lot of cleaning up to be done - combining, separating, editing, etc. - before it's time to add photos that may otherwise be linked to the wrong person.  It will be super when the time is right, not only for photos, but also for digital copies of original records. 

              In the meantime, perhaps someone will develop a program that will allow us to create web pages featuring our personal genealogy data with the photos, etc., and include the PID of our people which will automatically link to that person in nFS. One would need to be able to udate the posted data whenever the need or desire arose - sort of like RootsWeb WorldConnect on steroids... What think ye, developers?  Could personal genealogy websites be part of the FamilySearch Community?

              Venita

              On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:24 AM, timothygcross wrote:

              > This is an example of a post that I would like feedback on regarding the affiliates.
              >
              > We are exploring a concept around openly sharing information, images, sites, etc., in the FamilySearch Community. The idea is that when something is posted or published on FamilySearch or on an affiliate site, this information is immediately accessible through any of the affiliate software products or services. One example of this is www.photoloom.com.
              >
              > www.photoloom.com is a site where we are able to upload pictures of our ancestors. Since www.photoloom.com is an affiliate, we are able to log into nFS from this site and access the FamilySearch Tree. This tree information is then used to identify persons in the photos. Once our ancestors are identified in the pictures, this information is made available to the FamilySearch Community via the FS Person ID. Imagine pictures of your ancestors on every pedigree draw by FamilySearch or an Affiliate. An example of this is www.TreeSeek.com.
              >
              > www.TreeSeek.com is an affiliate that generates charts from nFS. For the 4-generation charts with pictures, www.TreeSeek.com uses nFS to create the tree and then accesses the pictures on www.photoloom.com identified for each ancestor. The result is a nice 4-generation chart using nFS tree information coupled with photos from www.photoloom.com.
              >
              > My questions for the group include:
              > 1. Is the FamilySearch Community concept appealing?
              > 2. Are there sites you would like to see become part of the FamilySearch Community?
              > 3. Do you think this particular example of photo tagging is something youth would engage in? Youth currently do similar tagging of photos on facebook, just not for their ancestors.
              >
              > Thank you for your consideration.
              >
              > Tim
              >
              > p.s. Should we set up a different group to discuss these types of posts? Or, is it "ok" on FHCNet?
              >
              >



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            • Miles Meyer
              Tim, I think there might be some confusion on how these affiliate systems might work with the photos. Could you provide some background on how some of these
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 2, 2010
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                Tim, I think there might be some confusion on how these affiliate systems
                might work with the photos. Could you provide some background on how some of
                these issues are being handled? As I understand it based on my experience on
                other sites, these pictures would be housed at PhotoLoom with a link to a
                nFS PID. These photos would not be housed on nFS or viewed in the pedigree
                charts. Is that correct?

                The BYU project that I was testing looked at your tree in nFS and kept track
                of when a document was added to anyone connected to you in your tree. Then
                it would notify you if someone added something to your line. I think that
                would calm some of the concerns that I have seen here about anyone/everyone
                seeing information that you added. However, in that case anyone could
                randomly read the journals that were being indexed.
                As far as copyright is concerned, would the submissions be ruled under
                creative commons? Therefore anyone wanting to copy the photo would be
                allowed? If someone is concerned about their phot being copied why would
                they put it on the internet?

                Miles Meyer
                Jacksonville, FL


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Russell Hltn
                ... I think you d have fewer submitters. ... I ve seen this issue enough elsewhere to know this could well spawn it s own long thread. It s a hot
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 2, 2010
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                  On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 5:48 AM, Miles Meyer <milesmeyer@...> wrote:
                  > As far as copyright is concerned, would the submissions be ruled under
                  > creative commons? Therefore anyone wanting to copy the photo would be
                  > allowed?

                  I think you'd have fewer submitters.


                  > If someone is concerned about their phot being copied why would
                  > they put it on the internet?
                  >

                  <sigh> I've seen this issue enough elsewhere to know this could well
                  spawn it's own long thread. It's a hot topic. One one side are
                  people who want the freedom to take what they want and repost it.
                  They also seem to confuse what's easy with what's right. On the other
                  side are people who ask that everyone respect THE LAW. (I tend to be
                  the latter.) According to the law, I can post things on a website and
                  ask that it not be republished.

                  Car thefts happen all the time. But I don't see anyone arguing that I
                  shouldn't own a car if having my car stolen would upset me so much.

                  A quick primer on copyright can be found here:
                  http://www.pddoc.com/copyright/genealogy_copyright_fundamentals.htm

                  Note, I'm not talking about people taking photos to put in a private
                  file. The issue (to me at least) is people taking photos and
                  *publishing* them by placing them on a website.

                  Do you really want to allow anyone to take a photo of your
                  GGrandfather and publish it in their (unrelated) tree just because
                  "it's an old person and I wanted to see what they looked like"? What
                  if it was attached to an unflattering story? Or perhaps taking a
                  number of photos, making a collage and selling it on eBay? (It's
                  happened.) That's what would happen under "creative commons", and you
                  can't do anything about it.

                  I know I won't be contributing any of my family photos to be used and
                  abused as anyone sees fit. This is also why I'd like to see a
                  "privacy option" to limit who can see the photos. I'm willing to
                  share with family, not to "the world".


                  (Timothy, see what you're in for? <grin>)
                • Venita Roylance
                  Hi Tim, I just happened upon a website that I find interesting and potentially very useful. It is called Ancestral Atlas and the URL is
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 7, 2010
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                    Hi Tim,

                    I just happened upon a website that I find interesting and potentially very useful. It is called Ancestral Atlas and the URL is http://www.ancestralatlas.com/ancestral-atlas-genealogy-mapping-network.php

                    Have you heard of it? Have a look.

                    Venita


                    On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:24 AM, timothygcross wrote:

                    > This is an example of a post that I would like feedback on regarding the affiliates.
                    >
                    > We are exploring a concept around openly sharing information, images, sites, etc., in the FamilySearch Community. The idea is that when something is posted or published on FamilySearch or on an affiliate site, this information is immediately accessible through any of the affiliate software products or services. One example of this is www.photoloom.com.
                    >
                    > www.photoloom.com is a site where we are able to upload pictures of our ancestors. Since www.photoloom.com is an affiliate, we are able to log into nFS from this site and access the FamilySearch Tree. This tree information is then used to identify persons in the photos. Once our ancestors are identified in the pictures, this information is made available to the FamilySearch Community via the FS Person ID. Imagine pictures of your ancestors on every pedigree draw by FamilySearch or an Affiliate. An example of this is www.TreeSeek.com.
                    >
                    > www.TreeSeek.com is an affiliate that generates charts from nFS. For the 4-generation charts with pictures, www.TreeSeek.com uses nFS to create the tree and then accesses the pictures on www.photoloom.com identified for each ancestor. The result is a nice 4-generation chart using nFS tree information coupled with photos from www.photoloom.com.
                    >
                    > My questions for the group include:
                    > 1. Is the FamilySearch Community concept appealing?
                    > 2. Are there sites you would like to see become part of the FamilySearch Community?
                    > 3. Do you think this particular example of photo tagging is something youth would engage in? Youth currently do similar tagging of photos on facebook, just not for their ancestors.
                    >
                    > Thank you for your consideration.
                    >
                    > Tim
                    >
                    > p.s. Should we set up a different group to discuss these types of posts? Or, is it "ok" on FHCNet?
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kathryn Marshall
                    Tim, I raised the question of sharing information in the FamilySearch Community with some of our regular FHC patrons. They like the notion of being able to
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 7, 2010
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                      Tim,

                      I raised the question of sharing information in the FamilySearch Community with some of our regular FHC patrons. They like the notion of being able to click a link from one web site to another that would have information about a particular ancestor found on both sites. Saving time filling in search fields and assuring that the same individual is being accessed on both sites are deemed valuable features.

                      However, the patrons with whom I spoke are not willing to trade convenience for control over their own data, particularly family photos. If data were to be posted to FamilySearch, they definitely would want the data to remain with FamilySearch itself and not be funneled off to another entity. A strong sense of betrayal by particular entities remains for having used data collected from customers in ways the customers did not anticipate.

                      Our patrons were open to being invited to upload images to an affiliate for a one time purpose with a small link, but not a pop-up ad. They did not welcome the Church sharing their images with others, and were leary of "bait and switch" sneaking in. A non-LDS couple was the most vehement that they would trust the Church not to hijack their precious family images, but would not trust a commercial affiliate. "We've had agreements before that were not honored." Our patrons are requiring reason to trust what will eventually be done with the data and images.

                      Our youth would be open to tagging photos, but they do not know who is in old family photos in order to do so. Older patrons would be pleased to see correct names attached to old photos, and would welcome easy ways to zoom in and do that -- if they could be assured control over who sees the images. There is valid concern about offending family members in group photos when individuals in an image, or their nearest relatives, may not have given their permission for such a posting. Would there be restrictions on posting images of living persons?

                      Linking names on familysearch with passenger lists and ship images would be desirable.
                      http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ote/shipindx.htm
                      http://stevemorse.org/

                      I will request additional feedback at our next FHC staff meeting.

                      KM Marshall, FHC Director


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: timothygcross
                      To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 6:24 AM
                      Subject: [FHCNET] FamilySearch Affiliate Information Sharing



                      This is an example of a post that I would like feedback on regarding the affiliates.

                      We are exploring a concept around openly sharing information, images, sites, etc., in the FamilySearch Community. The idea is that when something is posted or published on FamilySearch or on an affiliate site, this information is immediately accessible through any of the affiliate software products or services. One example of this is www.photoloom.com.

                      www.photoloom.com is a site where we are able to upload pictures of our ancestors. Since www.photoloom.com is an affiliate, we are able to log into nFS from this site and access the FamilySearch Tree. This tree information is then used to identify persons in the photos. Once our ancestors are identified in the pictures, this information is made available to the FamilySearch Community via the FS Person ID. Imagine pictures of your ancestors on every pedigree draw by FamilySearch or an Affiliate. An example of this is www.TreeSeek.com.

                      www.TreeSeek.com is an affiliate that generates charts from nFS. For the 4-generation charts with pictures, www.TreeSeek.com uses nFS to create the tree and then accesses the pictures on www.photoloom.com identified for each ancestor. The result is a nice 4-generation chart using nFS tree information coupled with photos from www.photoloom.com.

                      My questions for the group include:
                      1. Is the FamilySearch Community concept appealing?
                      2. Are there sites you would like to see become part of the FamilySearch Community?
                      3. Do you think this particular example of photo tagging is something youth would engage in? Youth currently do similar tagging of photos on facebook, just not for their ancestors.

                      Thank you for your consideration.

                      Tim

                      p.s. Should we set up a different group to discuss these types of posts? Or, is it "ok" on FHCNet?





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tim Cross
                      Venita, We are aware of and are talking with them. Tim ... From: Venita Roylance Subject: Re: [FHCNET] FamilySearch Affiliate Information
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 8, 2010
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                        Venita,
                        We are aware of and are talking with them.
                        Tim

                        --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Venita Roylance <venitar@...> wrote:

                        From: Venita Roylance <venitar@...>
                        Subject: Re: [FHCNET] FamilySearch Affiliate Information Sharing
                        To: FHCNET@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 12:20 PM

                        Hi Tim,

                        I just happened upon a website that I find interesting and potentially very useful.  It is called Ancestral Atlas and the URL is http://www.ancestralatlas.com/ancestral-atlas-genealogy-mapping-network.php

                        Have you heard of it?  Have a look.

                        Venita


                        On Mar 1, 2010, at 7:24 AM, timothygcross wrote:

                        > This is an example of a post that I would like feedback on regarding the affiliates.
                        >
                        > We are exploring a concept around openly sharing information, images, sites, etc., in the FamilySearch Community. The idea is that when something is posted or published on FamilySearch or on an affiliate site, this information is immediately accessible through any of the affiliate software products or services. One example of this is www.photoloom.com.
                        >
                        > www.photoloom.com is a site where we are able to upload pictures of our ancestors. Since www.photoloom.com is an affiliate, we are able to log into nFS from this site and access the FamilySearch Tree. This tree information is then used to identify persons in the photos. Once our ancestors are identified in the pictures, this information is made available to the FamilySearch Community via the FS Person ID. Imagine pictures of your ancestors on every pedigree draw by FamilySearch or an Affiliate. An example of this is www.TreeSeek.com.
                        >
                        > www.TreeSeek.com is an affiliate that generates charts from nFS. For the 4-generation charts with pictures, www.TreeSeek.com uses nFS to create the tree and then accesses the pictures on www.photoloom.com identified for each ancestor. The result is a nice 4-generation chart using nFS tree information coupled with photos from www.photoloom.com.
                        >
                        > My questions for the group include:
                        > 1. Is the FamilySearch Community concept appealing?
                        > 2. Are there sites you would like to see become part of the FamilySearch Community?
                        > 3. Do you think this particular example of photo tagging is something youth would engage in? Youth currently do similar tagging of photos on facebook, just not for their ancestors.
                        >
                        > Thank you for your consideration.
                        >
                        > Tim
                        >
                        > p.s. Should we set up a different group to discuss these types of posts? Or, is it "ok" on FHCNet?
                        >
                        >



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                      • emregister
                        I am hoping that someone from the vicinity of the almost completed Vancouver Temple can contact me off this list. If you are in or near Langley my email is
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 9, 2010
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                          I am hoping that someone from the vicinity of the almost completed Vancouver
                          Temple can contact me off this list. If you are in or near Langley my email
                          is emregister@...


                          Eric
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