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FR dye blues

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  • Mentor, Nelly A.
    Yeah, I m still working out quirks to dyeing myself. A recent batch of charcoal grey FR dye (and plenty of it) on silk velvet turned out taupish-lavender.
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 4, 2005
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      "Yeah, I'm still working out quirks to dyeing myself.
      A recent batch of charcoal grey FR dye (and plenty of
      it) on silk velvet turned out taupish-lavender.
      Testing in black Rit produced pretty much the exact
      same color. *scratches head* Still trying things to
      get a charcoal grey. . .

      I've pretty much decided never to use the FR stuff on
      100% silk anymore, unless I'm looking for a pale,
      possibly slightly shifted version of the given color."


      That's a problem since I'd think the reason why a lot of people use FR
      on silk is that, the color selection with Dharma is bigger. No
      mixing/experimentation necessary. Well...not as much.

      But the charcoal gray turning taupe/lavender... that's sad. Maybe a
      diluted acid black dye might do the trick? Dharma did say that the FR
      black dye isn't quite black on silk, though I don't know if they mean it
      comes out a dark gray or some bizarre green.

      I read somewhere that charcoal also had navy blue pigment in it but I
      don't know if it was just a crazy RIT recipe or if it's valid. I would
      think you would get more of a gunmetal gray than charcoal with that
      combo, but who knows? I'm just sorry you might have to get several dyes
      to figure out how to fix the color you have already and find the right
      one.

      The thing is, again, FR provides versatility as to how you dye your
      fabric. Especially with the burnt-out velvet, I had to get a 20 gallon
      plastic container to dye 8 yards, since there was no way all that fabric
      would fit in my pot. Even then the color wasn't as deep as I initially
      wanted. But if I'm limited to dyeing with acid dyes for silks, which
      require near-boiling hot water, this will take some brainstorming. It's
      a pity they did away with cauldrons and enormous fireplaces.



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    • jehanni2
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 4, 2005
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        << A recent batch of charcoal grey FR dye (and plenty of it) on silk
        velvet turned out taupish-lavender. Testing in black Rit produced
        pretty much the exact same color. *scratches head* Still trying
        things to get a charcoal grey. . . >>

        << But the charcoal gray turning taupe/lavender... that's sad.
        Maybe a diluted acid black dye might do the trick? Dharma did say
        that the FR black dye isn't quite black on silk, though I don't know
        if they mean it comes out a dark gray or some bizarre green.>>

        Black is one of the toughest dye colors to create, because it's very
        difficult to make it intense enough to be black, and when it's not
        intense enough, you see the mixture of colors that went into it.
        Many commercial fabrics that look black are overdyed several times--
        when you play with discharging them, you see the underlying green,
        orange, blue or purple tones that were used in the process. If
        you've ever taken a color-mixing class in painting, you'll remember
        that black is the sum of all colors. (The opposite is true with
        stage lights: white is the sum of all colors, black is the absence.)

        If your dye results are coming out oddly, you might also have to
        factor in how well the various dyestuffs are attaching to your
        various fibers, too. Prewashing will help remove finishes that might
        make dyes "grab" unevenly. Checking your water chemistry is an
        option: my sister's well is so full of sulphur her shower water
        feels soapy before I've even lathered.

        Of course, you could try the fiber paints like Dye-Na-Flow that flow
        like dyes but are actually paint. They're less likely to change
        colors, but may alter the hand of your fabric somewhat, or (because
        they only coat the surface) abraid off the surface with wear.

        Jonatha
      • mellymel_hsv
        ... This is true, which is why I went with the FR stuff myself, that and the cost (the acid dyes are quite a bit more expensive in most cases). But, anything
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 4, 2005
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          > That's a problem since I'd think the reason why a
          > lot of people use FR
          > on silk is that, the color selection with Dharma is
          > bigger. No
          > mixing/experimentation necessary. Well...not as
          > much.

          This is true, which is why I went with the FR stuff
          myself, that and the cost (the acid dyes are quite a
          bit more expensive in most cases). But, anything not
          labeled with a * or ** seems to do ok (in my limited
          experience), it's when you're looking for deep or
          super vivid colors, it might be best to go with the
          acid dyes. I still have a lot of testing to do to see
          if my thoughts are right on this. I haven't tweaked
          all the variables yet. Honestly, I don't think I've
          done a dye yet where I didn't mix colors, even with
          everything the FR option gives you. I'm probably
          going to get a few books on the subject and do a lot
          of testing in the months to come. I've got the art
          side of dyeing down, it's the science side I haven't
          gotten a grasp on. I think that in itself will fix
          some of my problems.

          >I'm just sorry you might have
          > to get several dyes
          > to figure out how to fix the color you have already
          > and find the right
          > one.

          Well, at this point, I've got some stuff to test on,
          just for future reference, but I'm buying some already
          dyed silk velvet for the project itself. The 4 yards
          I've got that are taupe/lavender will get stripped of
          color (as much as Rit color remover will do) then
          re-dyed in as much Rit black as I think it will take
          and instead of being made into Aragorn's Council
          Velvet surcoat, it'll be a mantle to go with the
          outfit (preparing for cold in Indy).

          > The thing is, again, FR provides versatility as to
          > how you dye your
          > fabric. Especially with the burnt-out velvet, I had
          > to get a 20 gallon
          > plastic container to dye 8 yards, since there was no
          > way all that fabric
          > would fit in my pot. Even then the color wasn't as
          > deep as I initially
          > wanted.

          On burn out though, I would think it would be ok,
          unless it's the silk backing you're really after. The
          rayon pile on the velvets I've dyed turned out fine.
          I'm not really sure what's up with the grey though,
          that's the only one that went bad, and that really
          puzzles me. But the midnight blue/navy I did for the
          Blood Red gown came out great. Granted, I got
          impatient and it's not quite as dark as I'd like, but
          I can fix that with an overdye. It's the right color,
          just not as dark as I wanted.

          > But if I'm limited to dyeing with acid dyes
          > for silks, which
          > require near-boiling hot water, this will take some
          > brainstorming. It's
          > a pity they did away with cauldrons and enormous
          > fireplaces.

          heh, if I can find a cauldron, I've got a massive fire
          pit in the yard. ;]

          This is true though, I do all my dyeing in the washing
          machine as it stands now. If I plan on switching to
          acid dyes, I might have to finally go through with
          cutting the lid off that extra keg we've got and
          making a 15 gallon dye vat out of it. We've already
          got the propane burners for it and it's stainless
          steel, so shouldn't have reaction problems. Ah, the
          multiple uses of homebrewing equipment!

          Honestly, this is an option for anyone looking to do a
          LOT of dyeing on a LOT of yardage at once (where it
          would be worth the purchase/modification of additional
          equipment). Go to your local liquor store and see if
          they'll sell you one of the returned (empty) kegs for
          the cost of the deposit (around here, that's about
          $10). Then pick up one of those propane burners you
          see with turkey fryers (preferably one without the
          pot, though if you're not going to be doing so much at
          once, the pots that come with them would work as long
          as they're not aluminum, I think they usually run
          about 5 gallons). You can probably take the keg to a
          welding or machine shop or something and have them cut
          the top off for you if you don't have the tools. We
          bought an angle grinder at our local Harbor Freight
          Tools for about $20 for the job. Here are some pics
          of a brew session that show the equipment I'm talking
          about to give you a better idea:
          http://pics.chrislehmann.net/index.php?v=view&i=0&p=2005.03.06%20-%20IPA%20Brew/PICT0700.JPG

          We had to drill holes in the bottom to install spigots
          (for which we had to buy a step bit and that was
          rather pricey), but you wouldn't have to do that for
          dyeing necessarily. I'd think just cutting a hole in
          the top large enough to get in there and keep the
          fabric moving would be sufficient. I'll experiment
          and let you know how it goes. Might be next month
          before I get around to it though.

          -Mel




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        • Catelli, Ann
          If you are going for black, then don t bother stripping off the color that s there already. It may damage the cloth and/or affect the final color you get. For
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 4, 2005
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            If you are going for black, then don't bother stripping off the color that's there already. It may damage the cloth and/or affect the final color you get.

            For black, it's just a matter of piling pigment on pigment until you reach black, and neither taupe, lavender, nor some interesting mixture of the two will prevent black on top.


            Also, and not to be sneezed at, it's easier not to have the strip-the-dye step added to your task.


            Ann in CT

            > Well, at this point, I've got some stuff to test on,
            > just for future reference, but I'm buying some already
            > dyed silk velvet for the project itself. The 4 yards
            > I've got that are taupe/lavender will get stripped of
            > color (as much as Rit color remover will do) then
            > re-dyed in as much Rit black as I think it will take
            > and instead of being made into Aragorn's Council
            > Velvet surcoat, it'll be a mantle to go with the
            > outfit (preparing for cold in Indy).
            >
            >
            > -Mel
          • mellymel_hsv
            ... because it s very difficult to make it intense enough to be black, and when it s not intense enough, you see the mixture of colors that went into it. Many
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 4, 2005
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              > Black is one of the toughest dye colors to create,
              because it's very difficult to make it intense enough
              to be black, and when it's not intense enough, you see
              the mixture of colors that went into it. Many
              commercial fabrics that look black are overdyed
              several times-- when you play with discharging them,
              you see the underlying green, orange, blue or purple
              tones that were used in the process.

              So true, I never really expected to get grey from a
              diluted black. I was actually using a charcoal grey
              dye to try and get, well, a charcoal grey (imagine
              that, heh), but it came out lavender with some taupish
              tones in certain lights. I still have a lot of
              testing to do on the whole process to see if there's
              something I could have done to make it come up funky.
              I haven't gotten into any additives for breaking
              surface tension or pasting up the dye with urea water
              or anything of that sort just yet. I'm getting into
              it enough now to start to figure out some of the
              science of it. The experimentation is fun, as long as
              there isn't a pressing project to be done.

              >Prewashing will help remove finishes that might make
              dyes "grab" unevenly.

              Prewashing is something that happens to any fabric I
              get (except muslin) as soon as it gets pulled out of
              the box/bag it came from, whether I intend to dye it
              or not. I keep a bottle of synthrapol next to the
              washing machine at all times. ;]

              >Checking your water chemistry is an option: my
              sister's well is so full of sulphur her shower water
              feels soapy before I've even lathered.

              This however, is a concern for me and definitely
              something I've thought about. We do have a mixture of
              municipal and well water in our home. We've wondered
              if that's the problem with some of our beers (we have
              trouble getting a heavy body in a finished beer and
              thought it might be the water, since we've almost
              ruled out everything during the brew process).
              However, we'll be moving in the next 1-4 months, so
              I'm not sure how much tweaking I want to mess with
              there, knowing I'll have to start all over in the new
              house. The next several projects I have listed are
              either white (wedding gown) or fabrics bought ready to
              go (Angel gown), so I might just play with what I've
              got and put off any projects where I'd be dyeing until
              after the move.

              > Of course, you could try the fiber paints like
              Dye-Na-Flow that flow like dyes but are actually
              paint. They're less likely to change colors, but may
              alter the hand of your fabric somewhat, or (because
              they only coat the surface) abraid off the surface
              with wear.

              Most of those (I think) are heat set. I would *think*
              they'd be ok, as far as color fastness. However, like
              you said, I'm not sure how they'd alter the hand of
              the fabric, and/or if it's something that milsoft, or
              another textile softener would restore. Something to
              play with that's for sure. I've got some milsoft and
              some black seta-silk paint and plenty of scraps of
              velvet I could try it on. I'll be doing some dyeing
              this weekend where I'll finish the fabric off in a
              wash of milsoft, I can certainly test it and report
              back. I'd hate to think of trying to evenly paint
              yardage though.

              lots to ponder. . .

              -Mel



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            • mellymel_hsv
              ... So true, I was just wondering what it would do to the finished product (color wise). Didn t think it would bother it much if any, so I ll probably just
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 4, 2005
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                > For black, it's just a matter of piling pigment on
                > pigment until you reach black, and neither taupe,
                > lavender, nor some interesting mixture of the two
                > will prevent black on top.
                >
                >
                > Also, and not to be sneezed at, it's easier not to
                > have the strip-the-dye step added to your task.

                So true, I was just wondering what it would do to the
                finished product (color wise). Didn't think it would
                bother it much if any, so I'll probably just leave it.
                Thanks!

                -Mel



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              • jehanni2
                ... wrote: Re: the fiber paints like Dye-Na-Flow that flow like dyes but are actually paint. Mel said: Most of those (I think) are heat set. I would *think*
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 4, 2005
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                  --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, mellymel_hsv <mellymel_hsv@y...>
                  wrote:
                  Re: the fiber paints like Dye-Na-Flow that flow like dyes but are
                  actually paint.

                  Mel said: > Most of those (I think) are heat set. I would *think*
                  > they'd be ok, as far as color fastness. However, like
                  > you said, I'm not sure how they'd alter the hand of
                  > the fabric, and/or if it's something that milsoft, or
                  > another textile softener would restore. Something to
                  > play with that's for sure.

                  I haven't done a lot of experimentation with the liquid
                  additive "Airfix" that Jaquard sells, but it's supposed to make any
                  of their fabric paints air-set rather than heat set.

                  I have tumbled both silk and poly jacquard for 30-45 minutes in the
                  dryer, rather than ironing them, to heat-set seta and Jaquard fabric
                  paints. Seems to work OK, but verify it with a little dab of water
                  on a selvage before you assume it's done, and then re-tumble. The
                  poly jacquard showed more "wear" than the silk from this treatment.

                  In both cases, the fabric hand seemed to benefit from tumbling: It
                  removed the slight stiffness the dried painted fabrics had. (I find
                  this benefits air-dried sweaters and cotton terry towels, too.)

                  As for painting yard goods with fabric paints, I used a 4-inch
                  housepainters brush with Dye-Na-Flow to do 4 yards of a poly jaquard
                  fabric (really, I will post pics and instructions one day), and the
                  advertized "self-leveling" characteristic was really pretty
                  good....as long as you paint the whole piece on a flat surface, at
                  one sitting. Don't try to go back and piant the second half after
                  the first half has dried.

                  Jonatha
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