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Re: Pattern Mod help

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  • Hazel Daniel
    I feel I might have to do a lot of muslining for this dress..... What about franken-patterning? Using the top half of the pattern that scared me off with the
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
      I feel I might have to do a lot of muslining for this dress.....

      What about franken-patterning? Using the top half of the pattern that scared me off with the wider panels of the bridal pattern? there was another pattern I did consider as well, more of a V neck thing with long sleeves but its a fabric muncher O.o

      It's not me that is going to be wearing the dress, but it is for a large convention in London that is usually over two-three days in July. So she'll be in it all day for the time that she's there, and obviously to any other events that she plans to wear in the future.

      I live at the opposite end of the country, so I can hardly rush down to assist in any wardrobe mishaps!

      --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Cat Devereaux <CatDevereaux@...> wrote:
      >
      > On 11/18/2012 2:33 PM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
      >I did look at a different pattern with a closer neckline, but it required boning which is something I've never tried before. If I tried it I would most likely just use the seam allowance to hold it in place.<<

      It definitely needs the support... gravity works against that dress. I think the best bet would be to line the bodice well. And and boning in channels.
      >
      > Best bet for boning is to just use some thick cable ties. They flex, they wash, you can get lots of different widths.
      >
      > BTW, on that dress... I've got to wonder if she's taped in it as well. Maybe it's just lots a boning and it's built w/ a full underbust bra.... but depends on how much movement she has to do. If you plan to wear it for very long a time, definitely follow the lines of the bridal gown... get some of the fabric up on your shoulders.... to help support all the rest of the weight... else you could be asking for a wardrobe malfunction of catastrophic degree.
      >
      > The bodice HAS to support all of it.
      >
      > -Cat-
    • Naresha
      Just tossing my two cents in on this - I would suggest either some invisible straps on the dress OR else a bucket load of tape to keep it up.  You will
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
        Just tossing my two cents in on this - I would suggest either some "invisible" straps on the dress OR else a bucket load of tape to keep it up.  You will never see the queen hoiking her strapless frock up on a TV show, but realistically, short of putting in some sort of device like straps or tape, there will be a lot of tugging - especially walking around a convention for hours or days on end.  Looking at that picture and the others I can find on Google, it looks like there is some very serious foundation work going on in the bodice of that dress (not to mention the underskirt!) and it also looks VERY boned - and I don't think you will get away with not boning it at least a little bit.  It is easy enough to do albeit a little time consuming, especially whilst getting the hang of it.  If you don't want to go as far as ordering proper steel bones, the plastic boning you buy in any fabric store is quite easy to work with - cut to size with a pair of
        kitchen shears (the type you would use to cut up a cooked chicken, not your ordinary household scissors or good sewing ones!) and round off the sharp edges with a nail file!  Not as good as the proper steel ones, but better than nothing (main issue I find is that the mould to your body shape a little too well and don't like to unmould)  Looking at the back of the dress:
        http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5xss4VzKl1rtumclo1_500.jpg &
        http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb4evyzedf1qazddpo1_500.png (educated
        assumption that this is the same dress and that she won't have two
        highly similar ones) you're not going to get much support out of it
        without modifying the pattern to come up over the shoulders as you were
        looking at doing it.  The skirt seems to have multi folds in it as well
        which would add huge amounts to the weight of it and as Cat said, the
        bodice has to support the whole thing.

        I'm not 100% sure if this would work in this instance but something I have done it before to make "faux" corsets (for lack of a better term) is buy one of those basic torsolettes (long line bra/corset lingerie item - fully underwired bra, usually with detachable straps that goes to the waist like a corset - often not boned but if you look around, you can find boned ones) and then mould the fabric over it.  Can be a bit tricky to mould the fabric over/around the cups, especially on larger bust sizes, but it can work.  I either cut the hooks off and put eyelets in if I want to lace it or put a panel over them and a tiny piece of velcro or a snap at each end to keep it down (and one or two in the middle if I'm feeling like being more thorough!)  Nowhere near as good as doing it properly of course, but it's worked for me a few times in the past in faking the illusion.



        Good luck with it - it is a GORGEOUS dress and I'm sure whatever you come up with will look utterly smashing! :)




        ________________________________
        From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
        To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, 19 November 2012 9:52 PM
        Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


         
        I feel I might have to do a lot of muslining for this dress.....

        What about franken-patterning? Using the top half of the pattern that scared me off with the wider panels of the bridal pattern? there was another pattern I did consider as well, more of a V neck thing with long sleeves but its a fabric muncher O.o

        It's not me that is going to be wearing the dress, but it is for a large convention in London that is usually over two-three days in July. So she'll be in it all day for the time that she's there, and obviously to any other events that she plans to wear in the future.

        I live at the opposite end of the country, so I can hardly rush down to assist in any wardrobe mishaps!

        --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Cat Devereaux <CatDevereaux@...> wrote:
        >
        > On 11/18/2012 2:33 PM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
        >I did look at a different pattern with a closer neckline, but it required boning which is something I've never tried before. If I tried it I would most likely just use the seam allowance to hold it in place.<<

        It definitely needs the support... gravity works against that dress. I think the best bet would be to line the bodice well. And and boning in channels.
        >
        > Best bet for boning is to just use some thick cable ties. They flex, they wash, you can get lots of different widths.
        >
        > BTW, on that dress... I've got to wonder if she's taped in it as well. Maybe it's just lots a boning and it's built w/ a full underbust bra.... but depends on how much movement she has to do. If you plan to wear it for very long a time, definitely follow the lines of the bridal gown... get some of the fabric up on your shoulders.... to help support all the rest of the weight... else you could be asking for a wardrobe malfunction of catastrophic degree.
        >
        > The bodice HAS to support all of it.
        >
        > -Cat-




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Hazel Daniel
        Different pattern perhaps? I found this on the vogue website http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850 If I simply lengthen it and
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
          Different pattern perhaps?

          I found this on the vogue website

          http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850

          If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?

          I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.
        • Sarah Strong
          That could work, plus it has the added benefit of a real sleeve, long enough to form a real basis for the dress you want to make. Also, you may not be able to
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
            That could work, plus it has the added benefit of a real sleeve, long
            enough to form a real basis for the dress you want to make.

            Also, you may not be able to get away with just "boning the bodice" (you
            *might*, with the addition of the ribbon waist belt, if the dress fits
            closely and isn't too heavy) The foundation I was talking about is like
            a separate inner bodice, sufficiently boned and with the ribbon waist
            belt, attached to the dress along the top edge. If you have never made a
            strapless dress, and if you find pattern instructions intelligible, you
            might take a gander to your local store that carries Vogue patterns, and
            read the instructions in a strapless dress pattern that has a
            foundation. Like for instance
            http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2237-products-4531.php?page_id=318
            or
            http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v1273-products-15136.php?page_id=861
            or any of a number of other dresses that have a boned foundation.


            On 11/19/2012 9:08 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
            > Different pattern perhaps?
            >
            > I found this on the vogue website
            >
            > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850
            >
            > If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help
            > support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have
            > suggested.....would that work?
            >
            > I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the
            > alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.
            >
          • slc_fire
            I ve made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it s a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
              I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
               
              Sheree
               
              Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!


              ________________________________
              From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
              To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
              Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help

               
              Different pattern perhaps?

              I found this on the vogue website

              http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850

              If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?

              I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Hazel Daniel
              Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich? Really? I thought you weren t allowed to remove the
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
                Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich?

                Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital, which is half hour train ride away.

                I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas, end of december, the new year.



                --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...> wrote:
                >
                > That could work, plus it has the added benefit of a real sleeve, long enough to form a real basis for the dress you want to make.
                >
                > Also, you may not be able to get away with just "boning the bodice" (you *might*, with the addition of the ribbon waist belt, if the dress fits closely and isn't too heavy) The foundation I was talking about is like a separate inner bodice, sufficiently boned and with the ribbon waist
                > belt, attached to the dress along the top edge. If you have never made a strapless dress, and if you find pattern instructions intelligible, you might take a gander to your local store that carries Vogue patterns, and read the instructions in a strapless dress pattern that has a foundation. Like for instance
                > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2237-products-4531.php?page_id=318
                > or
                > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v1273-products-15136.php?page_id=861
                > or any of a number of other dresses that have a boned foundation.
              • Elizabeth Phillips
                Really?  I was thinking of making that for myself for a family wedding.  Guess I ll do something else. ________________________________ From: slc_fire
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
                  Really?  I was thinking of making that for myself for a family wedding.  Guess I'll do something else.



                  ________________________________
                  From: slc_fire <slc_fire@...>
                  To: "F-Costume@yahoogroups.com" <F-Costume@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:35 AM
                  Subject: Re: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help

                  I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
                   
                  Sheree
                   
                  Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!


                  ________________________________
                  From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                  To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
                  Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help

                   
                  Different pattern perhaps?

                  I found this on the vogue website

                  http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850

                  If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?

                  I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sarah Strong
                  wow, bummer. :( looked so good!
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
                    wow, bummer. :( looked so good!

                    On 11/19/2012 9:35 AM, slc_fire wrote:
                    > I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very
                    > difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress
                    > and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes
                    > serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the
                    > neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m
                    > not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
                    >
                    > Sheree
                    >
                    > Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might
                    > as well dance!
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...
                    > <mailto:hazel.daniel%40ymail.com>>
                    > To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com <mailto:F-Costume%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
                    > Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help
                    >
                    >
                    > Different pattern perhaps?
                    >
                    > I found this on the vogue website
                    >
                    > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850
                    >
                  • Sarah Strong
                    Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it s not designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can support the dress)
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
                      Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not
                      designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can
                      support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off
                      the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to
                      hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it
                      will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress
                      has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be
                      in the foundation either.
                      If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you
                      might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips
                      also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also
                      key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation,
                      firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and
                      closed with a big hook and eye or two.

                      on looking at pattern instructions:
                      I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store,
                      where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I
                      want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you
                      can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue,
                      and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be
                      inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know
                      I'm not going to cause trouble! :D

                      Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to
                      start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans
                      to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the
                      fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                      I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit
                      to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for
                      everyone's cash flow...
                      S

                      On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                      >
                      > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the
                      > dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                      >
                      > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the
                      > shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital,
                      > which is half hour train ride away.
                      >
                      > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll
                      > give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas,
                      > end of december, the new year.
                      >
                    • Elizabeth Phillips
                      Absolutely get the measurements with the foundation garments the person is going to wear!   I made a wedding dress a couple of years ago that ended up being
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
                        Absolutely get the measurements with the foundation garments the person is going to wear!
                         
                        I made a wedding dress a couple of years ago that ended up being tight at the top of the sleeve because the bust was a little higher in the bra she bought the day before the wedding.  Still looked nice, but was uncomfortable for her.
                         
                        I also helped her daughter make a strapless mermaid dress.  I fit it very snugly over her regular bra, but it was too loose over a strapless bra.  We had to take tucks on the day and she still had to keep hoisting it up.
                         
                        I will never again make a dress for someone without the proper underpinnings.


                        ________________________________
                        From: Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...>
                        To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:27 PM
                        Subject: Re: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help

                        Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not
                        designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can
                        support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off
                        the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to
                        hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it
                        will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress
                        has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be
                        in the foundation either.
                        If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you
                        might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips
                        also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also
                        key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation,
                        firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and
                        closed with a big hook and eye or two.

                        on looking at pattern instructions:
                        I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store,
                        where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I
                        want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you
                        can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue,
                        and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be
                        inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know
                        I'm not going to cause trouble! :D

                        Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to
                        start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans
                        to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the
                        fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                        I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit
                        to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for
                        everyone's cash flow...
                        S

                        On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                        >
                        > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the
                        > dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                        >
                        > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the
                        > shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital,
                        > which is half hour train ride away.
                        >
                        > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll
                        > give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas,
                        > end of december, the new year.
                        >


                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Hazel Daniel
                        Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use? Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets.... So the foundation is
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
                          Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use? Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....

                          So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure (zipper in my case)...is that right?

                          Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept in a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for yourself, have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want. Could always ask next time I'm in there. :)

                          I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so all I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.

                          Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits her properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.

                          This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at the end!

                          --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be in the foundation either.
                          > If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation, firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and closed with a big hook and eye or two.
                          >
                          > on looking at pattern instructions:
                          > I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store, where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue, and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know I'm not going to cause trouble! :D
                          >
                          > Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                          > I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for everyone's cash flow...
                          > S
                          >
                          > On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                          > >
                          > > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital, which is half hour train ride away.
                          > >
                          > > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas, end of december, the new year.
                          > >
                          >
                        • aquazoo@patriot.net
                          At the fabric store, just explain that you are trying to decide between a couple of different patterns, and that you would like to see the instructions for
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
                            At the fabric store, just explain that you are trying to decide between a
                            couple of different patterns, and that you would like to see the
                            instructions for each before you decide. The clerk might want to pull the
                            sheets out of the envelope for you, if they are concerned that anything
                            will get rumpled too much.

                            Coutil is the best, but any fabric that is tightly-woven and firm should
                            do. Natural fibers will be more comfortable against the skin.

                            While a corset will anchor the weight of the dress at the waist, you will
                            probably want to extend it to flare over the hips. Depending on the shape
                            of the client, boning that ends at the waist can be really uncomfortable.

                            Something else that will help support the sleeves is to have them snug in
                            the upper arm. That way it's not the neckline or shoulder straps carrying
                            all the weight.

                            -Carol


                            > Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use?
                            > Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....
                            >
                            > So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist
                            > ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with
                            > hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure (zipper
                            > in my case)...is that right?
                            >
                            > Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get
                            > them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept in
                            > a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the
                            > catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for yourself,
                            > have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want. Could always ask
                            > next time I'm in there. :)
                            >
                            > I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so all
                            > I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.
                            >
                            > Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate
                            > areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits her
                            > properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.
                            >
                            > This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me
                            > specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at the
                            > end!
                          • Sarah Strong
                            If the pattern you end up using as a starting point doesn t include a foundation (lots of bridal patterns do) then you ll want to derive it from the dress
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
                              If the pattern you end up using as a starting point doesn't include a
                              foundation (lots of bridal patterns do) then you'll want to derive it
                              from the dress pattern, only make it fit more snugly. The neckline will
                              be the same so it holds up the dress neck line. Coutil is used for
                              corsets because it is strong enough to hold up to squeezing the body
                              into the artificial shape. This doesn't have to do that. It just needs
                              to be strong enough to hold the bones in place, which are holding the
                              dress up. Calico would be adequate for a little strapless cocktail
                              dress, you might want something a bit more sturdy for this, but if you
                              have a hard time finding coutil it's not essential. (unless the wearer
                              needs that kind of shaping)

                              You are *not* going to be able to make this dress fit properly without
                              fittings. You will need her to come for a fitting with the first test in
                              muslin, possibly a second if there are a lot of changes you have to
                              make, and again in the real fabric. There isn't enough $$ to pay me to
                              do this type of project without that. I know there are seamstresses who
                              manage somehow to get meaningful info from a fitting by mail, but I'm
                              not one of them!

                              Yes, the foundation is sewn to the top edge of the dress like a
                              glorified facing, and anchored at the seams so things stay where they
                              belong. The ribbon belt is inside the foundation because it may be the
                              smallest measurement of all, and similarly anchored every couple inches,
                              with the last inch or two at the ends free so you can operate the hook
                              and eye, and get them really snug. A zip sounds fine for the dress.
                              (Invisible zips are wonderful for places like this where you don't want
                              a big honking zipper placket screaming ZIPPER)

                              yeah, make sure you get good measurements, and lots of them, and an
                              adequate deposit.

                              On 11/19/2012 1:56 PM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                              > Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use?
                              > Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....
                              >
                              > So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist
                              > ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with
                              > hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure
                              > (zipper in my case)...is that right?
                              >
                              > Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get
                              > them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept
                              > in a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the
                              > catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for
                              > yourself, have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want.
                              > Could always ask next time I'm in there. :)
                              >
                              > I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so
                              > all I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.
                              >
                              > Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate
                              > areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits
                              > her properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.
                              >
                              > This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me
                              > specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at
                              > the end!
                              >
                            • Cat Devereaux
                              ... I d want to go beyond that point. Foundation garments are critical... AND I d want a t shirt duck tape over that to make the pattern. Measurements only
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
                                On 11/19/2012 9:42 AM, Elizabeth Phillips wrote:
                                > Absolutely get the measurements with the foundation garments the
                                > person is going to wear!
                                I'd want to go beyond that point. Foundation garments are critical...
                                AND I'd want a t shirt duck tape over that to make the pattern.
                                Measurements only tell so much... unless you get many... and then you
                                have to trust the measurement taker. (We discussed that a few weeks ago
                                here.)

                                You also might mention that folks around here are nervous about the fit
                                w/o lots of mailed fitting of the muslin, and think that the actress may
                                have also been taped.

                                So when you're estimating, include mailing costs and time of the extra
                                muslins.

                                -Cat-
                              • Naresha
                                No fittings?  That s going to be exceptionally problematic even with the most precise and detailed measurements, especially with a dress that is designed to
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 20, 2012
                                  No fittings?  That's going to be exceptionally problematic even with the most precise and detailed measurements, especially with a dress that is designed to hug the body and moreover, NEEDS to in order to support itself, you will need fittings.  I recently made a strapless sun dress for a friend of mine (admittedly this was the most complicated sun dress I have ever come across - A Vogue pattern with 27 different pattern pieces) and with my mother, the seamstress taking it over due to the ridiculously tight time frame involved, we still both struggled to get this dress to fit properly with almost weekly fittings.  We got to the point of putting the dress on her, noting the required changes/pinning etc, making the alterations, putting it back on her, checking, amending etc multiple times each fitting. (Note to self: never agree to make three dresses in less than three months when every pattern requires modification or is overly complicated to begin
                                  with!)  We ran out of time to make it 110% smooth and perfect but it stayed up, sat nicely, looked good on and she loved it.  Even with the experience of both me and my mother and the patience of our client, we both nearly ended up bald we tore our hair out so much with this dress and getting the foundation to the point where it was good enough for the dress to fit and be wearable.  We could quite easily have spent at least another month finenessing it to the point of perfection.

                                  One good find from this project was the material I used on the foundation - horsehair interfacing.  Thick but not overly stiff - it, along with a few bones, helped make the dress look really nice and finished and definitely helped in giving that extra bit of stiffness for keeping a strapless dress in place. Check the pattern before you get too carried away with looking for a second pattern for a foundation garment - a lot of them may already have a foundation built into pattern.  I would definitely ask if you can have a look at the instruction sheets - as others have suggested, just explain what information you're wanting from them and with any luck, they'll show you or be able to give you some advice based around their own knowledge and experience.

                                  As for the measurements...  I've learned only to trust measurements I take myself. When making things for overseas friends, I have had instances where a basic t-shirt dress dress meant for a petite size 8-10 (Australian) fitted their plus size 14-16 partner - and that was after I supplied a measurement chart and instructions!  Thankfully it was such a basic shape (and for a close friend) that in the end, they shipped me a t-shirt that had the fit they wanted when they sent the dress back and I picked the seams apart and hacked the dress down to the correct size based on that.  If your client is providing their own measurements, then make sure they understand that the finished product will be based on those measurements and that you can only make it based on what she tells you - with any luck, a run down of the things raised here will perhaps assist in persuading her to take the time to come to you for a fitting or two or accepting the added cost of
                                  you going to her with the dress for fittings and definitely go with Sarah's suggestion of a deposit that covers your materials and first few hours of work on this project.





                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                  To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012 5:56 AM
                                  Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


                                   
                                  Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use? Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....

                                  So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure (zipper in my case)...is that right?

                                  Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept in a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for yourself, have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want. Could always ask next time I'm in there. :)

                                  I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so all I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.

                                  Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits her properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.

                                  This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at the end!

                                  --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be in the foundation either.
                                  > If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation, firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and closed with a big hook and eye or two.
                                  >
                                  > on looking at pattern instructions:
                                  > I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store, where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue, and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know I'm not going to cause trouble! :D
                                  >
                                  > Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                                  > I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for everyone's cash flow...
                                  > S
                                  >
                                  > On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                                  > >
                                  > > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital, which is half hour train ride away.
                                  > >
                                  > > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas, end of december, the new year.
                                  > >
                                  >




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Carol Kocian
                                  ... Agreed! The alternative is for the client to understand the compromise needed. The original dress was made with lots of structure and with the actress
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 20, 2012
                                    On Nov 20, 2012, at 6:16 AM, Naresha wrote:

                                    > No fittings? That's going to be exceptionally problematic even
                                    > with the most precise and detailed measurements, especially with a
                                    > dress that is designed to hug the body and moreover, NEEDS to in
                                    > order to support itself, you will need fittings.


                                    Agreed! The alternative is for the client to understand the
                                    compromise needed. The original dress was made with lots of structure
                                    and with the actress available for fittings. I don't think you're
                                    going to get that exact dress, but you can get some features. The
                                    fabric, the color and the trimming will look beautiful even if it's
                                    not the exact lines.

                                    The patterns you've shown will be beautiful gowns, the only
                                    difference is that they do not have the heavy sleeves. You're not
                                    looking at the off-the-shoulder neckline.

                                    Plus you were talking about a stretch velvet, which will behave
                                    differently than a woven fabric. Your fitting "muslin" will need to
                                    have similar stretch to your stretch velvet.

                                    Part of the conversation with the client is, what parts of the
                                    original gown does she like the best? What does it need to have, vs.
                                    what can be compromised in order to be able to make it long-distance?

                                    -Carol
                                  • Jim or Chris Porter
                                    Would it help with the weight if the bodice and skirt were constructed a separate pieces? ________________________________ From: Naresha
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 20, 2012
                                      Would it help with the weight if the bodice and skirt were constructed a separate pieces?




                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Naresha <north_shore_fruitcake@...>
                                      To: "F-Costume@yahoogroups.com" <F-Costume@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 4:16 AM
                                      Subject: Re: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


                                       
                                      No fittings?  That's going to be exceptionally problematic even with the most precise and detailed measurements, especially with a dress that is designed to hug the body and moreover, NEEDS to in order to support itself, you will need fittings.  I recently made a strapless sun dress for a friend of mine (admittedly this was the most complicated sun dress I have ever come across - A Vogue pattern with 27 different pattern pieces) and with my mother, the seamstress taking it over due to the ridiculously tight time frame involved, we still both struggled to get this dress to fit properly with almost weekly fittings.  We got to the point of putting the dress on her, noting the required changes/pinning etc, making the alterations, putting it back on her, checking, amending etc multiple times each fitting. (Note to self: never agree to make three dresses in less than three months when every pattern requires modification or is overly complicated to begin
                                      with!)  We ran out of time to make it 110% smooth and perfect but it stayed up, sat nicely, looked good on and she loved it.  Even with the experience of both me and my mother and the patience of our client, we both nearly ended up bald we tore our hair out so much with this dress and getting the foundation to the point where it was good enough for the dress to fit and be wearable.  We could quite easily have spent at least another month finenessing it to the point of perfection.

                                      One good find from this project was the material I used on the foundation - horsehair interfacing.  Thick but not overly stiff - it, along with a few bones, helped make the dress look really nice and finished and definitely helped in giving that extra bit of stiffness for keeping a strapless dress in place. Check the pattern before you get too carried away with looking for a second pattern for a foundation garment - a lot of them may already have a foundation built into pattern.  I would definitely ask if you can have a look at the instruction sheets - as others have suggested, just explain what information you're wanting from them and with any luck, they'll show you or be able to give you some advice based around their own knowledge and experience.

                                      As for the measurements...  I've learned only to trust measurements I take myself. When making things for overseas friends, I have had instances where a basic t-shirt dress dress meant for a petite size 8-10 (Australian) fitted their plus size 14-16 partner - and that was after I supplied a measurement chart and instructions!  Thankfully it was such a basic shape (and for a close friend) that in the end, they shipped me a t-shirt that had the fit they wanted when they sent the dress back and I picked the seams apart and hacked the dress down to the correct size based on that.  If your client is providing their own measurements, then make sure they understand that the finished product will be based on those measurements and that you can only make it based on what she tells you - with any luck, a run down of the things raised here will perhaps assist in persuading her to take the time to come to you for a fitting or two or accepting the added cost of
                                      you going to her with the dress for fittings and definitely go with Sarah's suggestion of a deposit that covers your materials and first few hours of work on this project.

                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                      To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012 5:56 AM
                                      Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


                                       
                                      Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use? Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....

                                      So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure (zipper in my case)...is that right?

                                      Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept in a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for yourself, have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want. Could always ask next time I'm in there. :)

                                      I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so all I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.

                                      Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits her properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.

                                      This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at the end!

                                      --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be in the foundation either.
                                      > If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation, firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and closed with a big hook and eye or two.
                                      >
                                      > on looking at pattern instructions:
                                      > I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store, where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue, and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know I'm not going to cause trouble! :D
                                      >
                                      > Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                                      > I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for everyone's cash flow...
                                      > S
                                      >
                                      > On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                                      > >
                                      > > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital, which is half hour train ride away.
                                      > >
                                      > > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas, end of december, the new year.
                                      > >
                                      >

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Hazel Daniel
                                      Awwwww man.......*headdesk* I swear someone up there has it in for me. Just when I think I ve found a pattern....
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 23, 2012
                                        Awwwww man.......*headdesk* I swear someone up there has it in for me. Just when I think I've found a pattern....

                                        --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, slc_fire <slc_fire@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
                                        >  
                                        > Sheree
                                        >  
                                        > Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ________________________________
                                        > From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                        > To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
                                        > Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help
                                        >
                                        >  
                                        > Different pattern perhaps?
                                        >
                                        > I found this on the vogue website
                                        >
                                        > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850
                                        >
                                        > If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?
                                        >
                                        > I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Jim or Chris Porter
                                        There is a similar Vintage Vogue in the current catalog that does not seem to have the collar. Perhaps it is less origami-like?
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 23, 2012
                                          There is a similar Vintage Vogue in the current catalog that does not seem to have the collar. Perhaps it is less origami-like?



                                          ________________________________
                                          From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                          To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 3:59 AM
                                          Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


                                           
                                          Awwwww man.......*headdesk* I swear someone up there has it in for me. Just when I think I've found a pattern....

                                          --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, slc_fire <slc_fire@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
                                          >  
                                          > Sheree
                                          >  
                                          > Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ________________________________
                                          > From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                          > To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
                                          > Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          > Different pattern perhaps?
                                          >
                                          > I found this on the vogue website
                                          >
                                          > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850
                                          >
                                          > If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?
                                          >
                                          > I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >




                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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