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Re: [F-Costume] Pattern Mod help

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  • Sarah Strong
    You definitely want a foundation inside the bodice, just as if this was a strapless gown, to keep it from falling down. I don t think I d trust cable ties to
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 18, 2012
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      You definitely want a foundation inside the bodice, just as if this was
      a strapless gown, to keep it from falling down. I don't think I'd trust
      cable ties to give it enough support either, I'd invest in real 1/4"
      steel bones. Not a big deal really, you can order them to the correct
      length. OK to use cable ties in your muslin test, so you figure out what
      the correct lengths will be.

      What the foundation does is it supports the weight of the dress on the
      wearer's waist with a ribbon belt. It can extend below the waist also,
      if you want to smooth that line, and also have the bones not just end at
      the waist, but the waist belt is key. Then the bones go up to the top
      edge, or near enough to provide the needed support to the dress.
      Especially with the cleft in the front neckline! You can enhance
      cleavage by angling the side-front bones like this \/ a bit.

      I don't know if you have a back view, but I imagine the back neckline is
      straight across at the highest line it can be, in order to help support
      those sleeves. And I bet there's still some wig tape here and there!

      I think the pattern you've chosen as a starting point is a good one. If
      I recall correctly, it has a high-waist seam which you probably want to
      eliminate (and that should be easy to do, just overlap and glue the
      pattern pieces together) And it does go up onto the shoulders a bit so
      it will help carry the weight. You might raise the back neck line a bit
      to help support the sleeves.

      Gorgeous dress, what a fun project!

      On 11/18/2012 5:33 PM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
      > Hello again!
      >
      > I've been tasked with making a gown from the BBC show Merlin,
      > specifically this one ----->
      > http://media.sfx.co.uk/files/2012/10/merlin-arthurs-bane-part-1-overnights.jpg
      >
      > I've chosen this pattern for it--->
      > http://images.patternreview.com/sewing/patterns/vogue/2788/2788.jpg
      >
      > Basically I need help with the sleeves. I know adding the undersleeve
      > and the oversleeve will add a heap of weight onto the shoulder strap,
      > and my previous experience has told me that such things pull the dress down.
      >
      > I did look at a different pattern with a closer neckline, but it
      > required boning which is something I've never tried before. If I tried
      > it I would most likely just use the seam allowance to hold it in place.
      >
      > Guessing that it'll need reinforcing somehow, but how I don't know. I've
      > always ignored the need for interfacings in patterns (I know, slap me
      > right now)
      >
      > Also, if anyone has tips on how to stop stretch velvet fabric from
      > curling where it's been cut I would be most grateful.
      >
      >
    • Carol Kocian
      As long as it s ok with the client to have a different neckline than the original! Between the off-the-shoulders look and the cleavage, the original gown
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 18, 2012
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        As long as it's ok with the client to have a different neckline than
        the original! Between the off-the-shoulders look and the cleavage,
        the original gown definitely has a corset basis. I think I can see a
        flesh-tone or transparent narrow shoulder strap to help hold it up.

        I agree, from the Vogue pattern you will need a higher back to
        stabilize the shoulder straps and support the weight of the sleeves.
        Something you can do besides raising the back is to make it a V from
        the top of the strap to the center back, and stabilize that angle
        with stay tape.

        I made a dress once with a neckline like the Vogue and heavy sleeves,
        and the sleeves fell down in a hurry.

        -Carol


        On Nov 18, 2012, at 7:35 PM, Sarah Strong wrote:

        > You definitely want a foundation inside the bodice, just as if this
        > was
        > a strapless gown, to keep it from falling down. I don't think I'd
        > trust
        > cable ties to give it enough support either, I'd invest in real 1/4"
        > steel bones. Not a big deal really, you can order them to the correct
        > length. OK to use cable ties in your muslin test, so you figure out
        > what
        > the correct lengths will be.
        >
        > What the foundation does is it supports the weight of the dress on the
        > wearer's waist with a ribbon belt. It can extend below the waist also,
        > if you want to smooth that line, and also have the bones not just
        > end at
        > the waist, but the waist belt is key. Then the bones go up to the top
        > edge, or near enough to provide the needed support to the dress.
        > Especially with the cleft in the front neckline! You can enhance
        > cleavage by angling the side-front bones like this \/ a bit.
        >
        > I don't know if you have a back view, but I imagine the back
        > neckline is
        > straight across at the highest line it can be, in order to help
        > support
        > those sleeves. And I bet there's still some wig tape here and there!
        >
        > I think the pattern you've chosen as a starting point is a good
        > one. If
        > I recall correctly, it has a high-waist seam which you probably
        > want to
        > eliminate (and that should be easy to do, just overlap and glue the
        > pattern pieces together) And it does go up onto the shoulders a bit so
        > it will help carry the weight. You might raise the back neck line a
        > bit
        > to help support the sleeves.
        >
        > Gorgeous dress, what a fun project!
        >
        > On 11/18/2012 5:33 PM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
        >> Hello again!
        >>
        >> I've been tasked with making a gown from the BBC show Merlin,
        >> specifically this one ----->
        >> http://media.sfx.co.uk/files/2012/10/merlin-arthurs-bane-part-1-
        >> overnights.jpg
        >>
        >> I've chosen this pattern for it--->
        >> http://images.patternreview.com/sewing/patterns/vogue/2788/2788.jpg
        >>
        >> Basically I need help with the sleeves. I know adding the undersleeve
        >> and the oversleeve will add a heap of weight onto the shoulder strap,
        >> and my previous experience has told me that such things pull the
        >> dress down.
        >>
        >> I did look at a different pattern with a closer neckline, but it
        >> required boning which is something I've never tried before. If I
        >> tried
        >> it I would most likely just use the seam allowance to hold it in
        >> place.
        >>
        >> Guessing that it'll need reinforcing somehow, but how I don't
        >> know. I've
        >> always ignored the need for interfacings in patterns (I know, slap me
        >> right now)
        >>
        >> Also, if anyone has tips on how to stop stretch velvet fabric from
        >> curling where it's been cut I would be most grateful.
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • Hazel Daniel
        It certainly is! I told her before she even accepted my quotation for the costume. There isn t any kind of flesh coloured straps, I have several high rez refs
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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          It certainly is! I told her before she even accepted my quotation for the costume. There isn't any kind of flesh coloured straps, I have several high rez refs that I can zoom in and the dress seems to stay put by its lonesome. Even showed her pictures of the two patterns I had considered for the dress.


          --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Carol Kocian <aquazoo@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > As long as it's ok with the client to have a different neckline than
          > the original! Between the off-the-shoulders look and the cleavage,
          > the original gown definitely has a corset basis. I think I can see a
          > flesh-tone or transparent narrow shoulder strap to help hold it up.
          >
          > I agree, from the Vogue pattern you will need a higher back to
          > stabilize the shoulder straps and support the weight of the sleeves.
          > Something you can do besides raising the back is to make it a V from
          > the top of the strap to the center back, and stabilize that angle
          > with stay tape.
          >
          > I made a dress once with a neckline like the Vogue and heavy sleeves,
          > and the sleeves fell down in a hurry.
          >
          > -Carol
          >
          >
          > On Nov 18, 2012, at 7:35 PM, Sarah Strong wrote:
          >
          > > You definitely want a foundation inside the bodice, just as if this
          > > was
          > > a strapless gown, to keep it from falling down. I don't think I'd
          > > trust
          > > cable ties to give it enough support either, I'd invest in real 1/4"
          > > steel bones. Not a big deal really, you can order them to the correct
          > > length. OK to use cable ties in your muslin test, so you figure out
          > > what
          > > the correct lengths will be.
          > >
          > > What the foundation does is it supports the weight of the dress on the
          > > wearer's waist with a ribbon belt. It can extend below the waist also,
          > > if you want to smooth that line, and also have the bones not just
          > > end at
          > > the waist, but the waist belt is key. Then the bones go up to the top
          > > edge, or near enough to provide the needed support to the dress.
          > > Especially with the cleft in the front neckline! You can enhance
          > > cleavage by angling the side-front bones like this \/ a bit.
          > >
          > > I don't know if you have a back view, but I imagine the back
          > > neckline is
          > > straight across at the highest line it can be, in order to help
          > > support
          > > those sleeves. And I bet there's still some wig tape here and there!
          > >
          > > I think the pattern you've chosen as a starting point is a good
          > > one. If
          > > I recall correctly, it has a high-waist seam which you probably
          > > want to
          > > eliminate (and that should be easy to do, just overlap and glue the
          > > pattern pieces together) And it does go up onto the shoulders a bit so
          > > it will help carry the weight. You might raise the back neck line a
          > > bit
          > > to help support the sleeves.
          > >
          > > Gorgeous dress, what a fun project!
          > >
          > > On 11/18/2012 5:33 PM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
          > >> Hello again!
          > >>
          > >> I've been tasked with making a gown from the BBC show Merlin,
          > >> specifically this one ----->
          > >> http://media.sfx.co.uk/files/2012/10/merlin-arthurs-bane-part-1-
          > >> overnights.jpg
          > >>
          > >> I've chosen this pattern for it--->
          > >> http://images.patternreview.com/sewing/patterns/vogue/2788/2788.jpg
          > >>
          > >> Basically I need help with the sleeves. I know adding the undersleeve
          > >> and the oversleeve will add a heap of weight onto the shoulder strap,
          > >> and my previous experience has told me that such things pull the
          > >> dress down.
          > >>
          > >> I did look at a different pattern with a closer neckline, but it
          > >> required boning which is something I've never tried before. If I
          > >> tried
          > >> it I would most likely just use the seam allowance to hold it in
          > >> place.
          > >>
          > >> Guessing that it'll need reinforcing somehow, but how I don't
          > >> know. I've
          > >> always ignored the need for interfacings in patterns (I know, slap me
          > >> right now)
          > >>
          > >> Also, if anyone has tips on how to stop stretch velvet fabric from
          > >> curling where it's been cut I would be most grateful.
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Hazel Daniel
          I feel I might have to do a lot of muslining for this dress..... What about franken-patterning? Using the top half of the pattern that scared me off with the
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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            I feel I might have to do a lot of muslining for this dress.....

            What about franken-patterning? Using the top half of the pattern that scared me off with the wider panels of the bridal pattern? there was another pattern I did consider as well, more of a V neck thing with long sleeves but its a fabric muncher O.o

            It's not me that is going to be wearing the dress, but it is for a large convention in London that is usually over two-three days in July. So she'll be in it all day for the time that she's there, and obviously to any other events that she plans to wear in the future.

            I live at the opposite end of the country, so I can hardly rush down to assist in any wardrobe mishaps!

            --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Cat Devereaux <CatDevereaux@...> wrote:
            >
            > On 11/18/2012 2:33 PM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
            >I did look at a different pattern with a closer neckline, but it required boning which is something I've never tried before. If I tried it I would most likely just use the seam allowance to hold it in place.<<

            It definitely needs the support... gravity works against that dress. I think the best bet would be to line the bodice well. And and boning in channels.
            >
            > Best bet for boning is to just use some thick cable ties. They flex, they wash, you can get lots of different widths.
            >
            > BTW, on that dress... I've got to wonder if she's taped in it as well. Maybe it's just lots a boning and it's built w/ a full underbust bra.... but depends on how much movement she has to do. If you plan to wear it for very long a time, definitely follow the lines of the bridal gown... get some of the fabric up on your shoulders.... to help support all the rest of the weight... else you could be asking for a wardrobe malfunction of catastrophic degree.
            >
            > The bodice HAS to support all of it.
            >
            > -Cat-
          • Naresha
            Just tossing my two cents in on this - I would suggest either some invisible straps on the dress OR else a bucket load of tape to keep it up.  You will
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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              Just tossing my two cents in on this - I would suggest either some "invisible" straps on the dress OR else a bucket load of tape to keep it up.  You will never see the queen hoiking her strapless frock up on a TV show, but realistically, short of putting in some sort of device like straps or tape, there will be a lot of tugging - especially walking around a convention for hours or days on end.  Looking at that picture and the others I can find on Google, it looks like there is some very serious foundation work going on in the bodice of that dress (not to mention the underskirt!) and it also looks VERY boned - and I don't think you will get away with not boning it at least a little bit.  It is easy enough to do albeit a little time consuming, especially whilst getting the hang of it.  If you don't want to go as far as ordering proper steel bones, the plastic boning you buy in any fabric store is quite easy to work with - cut to size with a pair of
              kitchen shears (the type you would use to cut up a cooked chicken, not your ordinary household scissors or good sewing ones!) and round off the sharp edges with a nail file!  Not as good as the proper steel ones, but better than nothing (main issue I find is that the mould to your body shape a little too well and don't like to unmould)  Looking at the back of the dress:
              http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5xss4VzKl1rtumclo1_500.jpg &
              http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mb4evyzedf1qazddpo1_500.png (educated
              assumption that this is the same dress and that she won't have two
              highly similar ones) you're not going to get much support out of it
              without modifying the pattern to come up over the shoulders as you were
              looking at doing it.  The skirt seems to have multi folds in it as well
              which would add huge amounts to the weight of it and as Cat said, the
              bodice has to support the whole thing.

              I'm not 100% sure if this would work in this instance but something I have done it before to make "faux" corsets (for lack of a better term) is buy one of those basic torsolettes (long line bra/corset lingerie item - fully underwired bra, usually with detachable straps that goes to the waist like a corset - often not boned but if you look around, you can find boned ones) and then mould the fabric over it.  Can be a bit tricky to mould the fabric over/around the cups, especially on larger bust sizes, but it can work.  I either cut the hooks off and put eyelets in if I want to lace it or put a panel over them and a tiny piece of velcro or a snap at each end to keep it down (and one or two in the middle if I'm feeling like being more thorough!)  Nowhere near as good as doing it properly of course, but it's worked for me a few times in the past in faking the illusion.



              Good luck with it - it is a GORGEOUS dress and I'm sure whatever you come up with will look utterly smashing! :)




              ________________________________
              From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
              To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, 19 November 2012 9:52 PM
              Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


               
              I feel I might have to do a lot of muslining for this dress.....

              What about franken-patterning? Using the top half of the pattern that scared me off with the wider panels of the bridal pattern? there was another pattern I did consider as well, more of a V neck thing with long sleeves but its a fabric muncher O.o

              It's not me that is going to be wearing the dress, but it is for a large convention in London that is usually over two-three days in July. So she'll be in it all day for the time that she's there, and obviously to any other events that she plans to wear in the future.

              I live at the opposite end of the country, so I can hardly rush down to assist in any wardrobe mishaps!

              --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Cat Devereaux <CatDevereaux@...> wrote:
              >
              > On 11/18/2012 2:33 PM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
              >I did look at a different pattern with a closer neckline, but it required boning which is something I've never tried before. If I tried it I would most likely just use the seam allowance to hold it in place.<<

              It definitely needs the support... gravity works against that dress. I think the best bet would be to line the bodice well. And and boning in channels.
              >
              > Best bet for boning is to just use some thick cable ties. They flex, they wash, you can get lots of different widths.
              >
              > BTW, on that dress... I've got to wonder if she's taped in it as well. Maybe it's just lots a boning and it's built w/ a full underbust bra.... but depends on how much movement she has to do. If you plan to wear it for very long a time, definitely follow the lines of the bridal gown... get some of the fabric up on your shoulders.... to help support all the rest of the weight... else you could be asking for a wardrobe malfunction of catastrophic degree.
              >
              > The bodice HAS to support all of it.
              >
              > -Cat-




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Hazel Daniel
              Different pattern perhaps? I found this on the vogue website http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850 If I simply lengthen it and
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                Different pattern perhaps?

                I found this on the vogue website

                http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850

                If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?

                I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.
              • Sarah Strong
                That could work, plus it has the added benefit of a real sleeve, long enough to form a real basis for the dress you want to make. Also, you may not be able to
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                  That could work, plus it has the added benefit of a real sleeve, long
                  enough to form a real basis for the dress you want to make.

                  Also, you may not be able to get away with just "boning the bodice" (you
                  *might*, with the addition of the ribbon waist belt, if the dress fits
                  closely and isn't too heavy) The foundation I was talking about is like
                  a separate inner bodice, sufficiently boned and with the ribbon waist
                  belt, attached to the dress along the top edge. If you have never made a
                  strapless dress, and if you find pattern instructions intelligible, you
                  might take a gander to your local store that carries Vogue patterns, and
                  read the instructions in a strapless dress pattern that has a
                  foundation. Like for instance
                  http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2237-products-4531.php?page_id=318
                  or
                  http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v1273-products-15136.php?page_id=861
                  or any of a number of other dresses that have a boned foundation.


                  On 11/19/2012 9:08 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                  > Different pattern perhaps?
                  >
                  > I found this on the vogue website
                  >
                  > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850
                  >
                  > If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help
                  > support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have
                  > suggested.....would that work?
                  >
                  > I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the
                  > alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.
                  >
                • slc_fire
                  I ve made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it s a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                    I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
                     
                    Sheree
                     
                    Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!


                    ________________________________
                    From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                    To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
                    Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help

                     
                    Different pattern perhaps?

                    I found this on the vogue website

                    http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850

                    If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?

                    I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Hazel Daniel
                    Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich? Really? I thought you weren t allowed to remove the
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                      Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich?

                      Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital, which is half hour train ride away.

                      I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas, end of december, the new year.



                      --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > That could work, plus it has the added benefit of a real sleeve, long enough to form a real basis for the dress you want to make.
                      >
                      > Also, you may not be able to get away with just "boning the bodice" (you *might*, with the addition of the ribbon waist belt, if the dress fits closely and isn't too heavy) The foundation I was talking about is like a separate inner bodice, sufficiently boned and with the ribbon waist
                      > belt, attached to the dress along the top edge. If you have never made a strapless dress, and if you find pattern instructions intelligible, you might take a gander to your local store that carries Vogue patterns, and read the instructions in a strapless dress pattern that has a foundation. Like for instance
                      > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2237-products-4531.php?page_id=318
                      > or
                      > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v1273-products-15136.php?page_id=861
                      > or any of a number of other dresses that have a boned foundation.
                    • Elizabeth Phillips
                      Really?  I was thinking of making that for myself for a family wedding.  Guess I ll do something else. ________________________________ From: slc_fire
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                        Really?  I was thinking of making that for myself for a family wedding.  Guess I'll do something else.



                        ________________________________
                        From: slc_fire <slc_fire@...>
                        To: "F-Costume@yahoogroups.com" <F-Costume@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:35 AM
                        Subject: Re: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help

                        I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
                         
                        Sheree
                         
                        Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!


                        ________________________________
                        From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                        To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
                        Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help

                         
                        Different pattern perhaps?

                        I found this on the vogue website

                        http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850

                        If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?

                        I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Sarah Strong
                        wow, bummer. :( looked so good!
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                          wow, bummer. :( looked so good!

                          On 11/19/2012 9:35 AM, slc_fire wrote:
                          > I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very
                          > difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress
                          > and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes
                          > serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the
                          > neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m
                          > not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
                          >
                          > Sheree
                          >
                          > Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might
                          > as well dance!
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...
                          > <mailto:hazel.daniel%40ymail.com>>
                          > To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com <mailto:F-Costume%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
                          > Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help
                          >
                          >
                          > Different pattern perhaps?
                          >
                          > I found this on the vogue website
                          >
                          > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850
                          >
                        • Sarah Strong
                          Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it s not designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can support the dress)
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                            Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not
                            designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can
                            support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off
                            the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to
                            hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it
                            will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress
                            has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be
                            in the foundation either.
                            If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you
                            might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips
                            also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also
                            key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation,
                            firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and
                            closed with a big hook and eye or two.

                            on looking at pattern instructions:
                            I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store,
                            where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I
                            want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you
                            can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue,
                            and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be
                            inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know
                            I'm not going to cause trouble! :D

                            Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to
                            start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans
                            to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the
                            fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                            I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit
                            to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for
                            everyone's cash flow...
                            S

                            On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                            >
                            > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the
                            > dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                            >
                            > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the
                            > shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital,
                            > which is half hour train ride away.
                            >
                            > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll
                            > give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas,
                            > end of december, the new year.
                            >
                          • Elizabeth Phillips
                            Absolutely get the measurements with the foundation garments the person is going to wear!   I made a wedding dress a couple of years ago that ended up being
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                              Absolutely get the measurements with the foundation garments the person is going to wear!
                               
                              I made a wedding dress a couple of years ago that ended up being tight at the top of the sleeve because the bust was a little higher in the bra she bought the day before the wedding.  Still looked nice, but was uncomfortable for her.
                               
                              I also helped her daughter make a strapless mermaid dress.  I fit it very snugly over her regular bra, but it was too loose over a strapless bra.  We had to take tucks on the day and she still had to keep hoisting it up.
                               
                              I will never again make a dress for someone without the proper underpinnings.


                              ________________________________
                              From: Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...>
                              To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 12:27 PM
                              Subject: Re: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help

                              Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not
                              designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can
                              support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off
                              the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to
                              hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it
                              will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress
                              has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be
                              in the foundation either.
                              If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you
                              might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips
                              also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also
                              key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation,
                              firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and
                              closed with a big hook and eye or two.

                              on looking at pattern instructions:
                              I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store,
                              where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I
                              want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you
                              can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue,
                              and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be
                              inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know
                              I'm not going to cause trouble! :D

                              Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to
                              start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans
                              to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the
                              fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                              I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit
                              to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for
                              everyone's cash flow...
                              S

                              On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                              >
                              > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the
                              > dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                              >
                              > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the
                              > shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital,
                              > which is half hour train ride away.
                              >
                              > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll
                              > give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas,
                              > end of december, the new year.
                              >


                              ------------------------------------

                              Yahoo! Groups Links



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Hazel Daniel
                              Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use? Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets.... So the foundation is
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                                Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use? Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....

                                So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure (zipper in my case)...is that right?

                                Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept in a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for yourself, have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want. Could always ask next time I'm in there. :)

                                I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so all I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.

                                Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits her properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.

                                This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at the end!

                                --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be in the foundation either.
                                > If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation, firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and closed with a big hook and eye or two.
                                >
                                > on looking at pattern instructions:
                                > I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store, where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue, and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know I'm not going to cause trouble! :D
                                >
                                > Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                                > I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for everyone's cash flow...
                                > S
                                >
                                > On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                                > >
                                > > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital, which is half hour train ride away.
                                > >
                                > > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas, end of december, the new year.
                                > >
                                >
                              • aquazoo@patriot.net
                                At the fabric store, just explain that you are trying to decide between a couple of different patterns, and that you would like to see the instructions for
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                                  At the fabric store, just explain that you are trying to decide between a
                                  couple of different patterns, and that you would like to see the
                                  instructions for each before you decide. The clerk might want to pull the
                                  sheets out of the envelope for you, if they are concerned that anything
                                  will get rumpled too much.

                                  Coutil is the best, but any fabric that is tightly-woven and firm should
                                  do. Natural fibers will be more comfortable against the skin.

                                  While a corset will anchor the weight of the dress at the waist, you will
                                  probably want to extend it to flare over the hips. Depending on the shape
                                  of the client, boning that ends at the waist can be really uncomfortable.

                                  Something else that will help support the sleeves is to have them snug in
                                  the upper arm. That way it's not the neckline or shoulder straps carrying
                                  all the weight.

                                  -Carol


                                  > Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use?
                                  > Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....
                                  >
                                  > So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist
                                  > ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with
                                  > hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure (zipper
                                  > in my case)...is that right?
                                  >
                                  > Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get
                                  > them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept in
                                  > a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the
                                  > catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for yourself,
                                  > have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want. Could always ask
                                  > next time I'm in there. :)
                                  >
                                  > I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so all
                                  > I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.
                                  >
                                  > Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate
                                  > areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits her
                                  > properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.
                                  >
                                  > This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me
                                  > specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at the
                                  > end!
                                • Sarah Strong
                                  If the pattern you end up using as a starting point doesn t include a foundation (lots of bridal patterns do) then you ll want to derive it from the dress
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                                    If the pattern you end up using as a starting point doesn't include a
                                    foundation (lots of bridal patterns do) then you'll want to derive it
                                    from the dress pattern, only make it fit more snugly. The neckline will
                                    be the same so it holds up the dress neck line. Coutil is used for
                                    corsets because it is strong enough to hold up to squeezing the body
                                    into the artificial shape. This doesn't have to do that. It just needs
                                    to be strong enough to hold the bones in place, which are holding the
                                    dress up. Calico would be adequate for a little strapless cocktail
                                    dress, you might want something a bit more sturdy for this, but if you
                                    have a hard time finding coutil it's not essential. (unless the wearer
                                    needs that kind of shaping)

                                    You are *not* going to be able to make this dress fit properly without
                                    fittings. You will need her to come for a fitting with the first test in
                                    muslin, possibly a second if there are a lot of changes you have to
                                    make, and again in the real fabric. There isn't enough $$ to pay me to
                                    do this type of project without that. I know there are seamstresses who
                                    manage somehow to get meaningful info from a fitting by mail, but I'm
                                    not one of them!

                                    Yes, the foundation is sewn to the top edge of the dress like a
                                    glorified facing, and anchored at the seams so things stay where they
                                    belong. The ribbon belt is inside the foundation because it may be the
                                    smallest measurement of all, and similarly anchored every couple inches,
                                    with the last inch or two at the ends free so you can operate the hook
                                    and eye, and get them really snug. A zip sounds fine for the dress.
                                    (Invisible zips are wonderful for places like this where you don't want
                                    a big honking zipper placket screaming ZIPPER)

                                    yeah, make sure you get good measurements, and lots of them, and an
                                    adequate deposit.

                                    On 11/19/2012 1:56 PM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                                    > Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use?
                                    > Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....
                                    >
                                    > So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist
                                    > ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with
                                    > hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure
                                    > (zipper in my case)...is that right?
                                    >
                                    > Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get
                                    > them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept
                                    > in a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the
                                    > catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for
                                    > yourself, have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want.
                                    > Could always ask next time I'm in there. :)
                                    >
                                    > I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so
                                    > all I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.
                                    >
                                    > Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate
                                    > areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits
                                    > her properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.
                                    >
                                    > This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me
                                    > specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at
                                    > the end!
                                    >
                                  • Cat Devereaux
                                    ... I d want to go beyond that point. Foundation garments are critical... AND I d want a t shirt duck tape over that to make the pattern. Measurements only
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 19, 2012
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                                      On 11/19/2012 9:42 AM, Elizabeth Phillips wrote:
                                      > Absolutely get the measurements with the foundation garments the
                                      > person is going to wear!
                                      I'd want to go beyond that point. Foundation garments are critical...
                                      AND I'd want a t shirt duck tape over that to make the pattern.
                                      Measurements only tell so much... unless you get many... and then you
                                      have to trust the measurement taker. (We discussed that a few weeks ago
                                      here.)

                                      You also might mention that folks around here are nervous about the fit
                                      w/o lots of mailed fitting of the muslin, and think that the actress may
                                      have also been taped.

                                      So when you're estimating, include mailing costs and time of the extra
                                      muslins.

                                      -Cat-
                                    • Naresha
                                      No fittings?  That s going to be exceptionally problematic even with the most precise and detailed measurements, especially with a dress that is designed to
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 20, 2012
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                                        No fittings?  That's going to be exceptionally problematic even with the most precise and detailed measurements, especially with a dress that is designed to hug the body and moreover, NEEDS to in order to support itself, you will need fittings.  I recently made a strapless sun dress for a friend of mine (admittedly this was the most complicated sun dress I have ever come across - A Vogue pattern with 27 different pattern pieces) and with my mother, the seamstress taking it over due to the ridiculously tight time frame involved, we still both struggled to get this dress to fit properly with almost weekly fittings.  We got to the point of putting the dress on her, noting the required changes/pinning etc, making the alterations, putting it back on her, checking, amending etc multiple times each fitting. (Note to self: never agree to make three dresses in less than three months when every pattern requires modification or is overly complicated to begin
                                        with!)  We ran out of time to make it 110% smooth and perfect but it stayed up, sat nicely, looked good on and she loved it.  Even with the experience of both me and my mother and the patience of our client, we both nearly ended up bald we tore our hair out so much with this dress and getting the foundation to the point where it was good enough for the dress to fit and be wearable.  We could quite easily have spent at least another month finenessing it to the point of perfection.

                                        One good find from this project was the material I used on the foundation - horsehair interfacing.  Thick but not overly stiff - it, along with a few bones, helped make the dress look really nice and finished and definitely helped in giving that extra bit of stiffness for keeping a strapless dress in place. Check the pattern before you get too carried away with looking for a second pattern for a foundation garment - a lot of them may already have a foundation built into pattern.  I would definitely ask if you can have a look at the instruction sheets - as others have suggested, just explain what information you're wanting from them and with any luck, they'll show you or be able to give you some advice based around their own knowledge and experience.

                                        As for the measurements...  I've learned only to trust measurements I take myself. When making things for overseas friends, I have had instances where a basic t-shirt dress dress meant for a petite size 8-10 (Australian) fitted their plus size 14-16 partner - and that was after I supplied a measurement chart and instructions!  Thankfully it was such a basic shape (and for a close friend) that in the end, they shipped me a t-shirt that had the fit they wanted when they sent the dress back and I picked the seams apart and hacked the dress down to the correct size based on that.  If your client is providing their own measurements, then make sure they understand that the finished product will be based on those measurements and that you can only make it based on what she tells you - with any luck, a run down of the things raised here will perhaps assist in persuading her to take the time to come to you for a fitting or two or accepting the added cost of
                                        you going to her with the dress for fittings and definitely go with Sarah's suggestion of a deposit that covers your materials and first few hours of work on this project.





                                        ________________________________
                                        From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                        To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012 5:56 AM
                                        Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


                                         
                                        Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use? Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....

                                        So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure (zipper in my case)...is that right?

                                        Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept in a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for yourself, have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want. Could always ask next time I'm in there. :)

                                        I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so all I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.

                                        Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits her properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.

                                        This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at the end!

                                        --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be in the foundation either.
                                        > If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation, firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and closed with a big hook and eye or two.
                                        >
                                        > on looking at pattern instructions:
                                        > I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store, where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue, and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know I'm not going to cause trouble! :D
                                        >
                                        > Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                                        > I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for everyone's cash flow...
                                        > S
                                        >
                                        > On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                                        > >
                                        > > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital, which is half hour train ride away.
                                        > >
                                        > > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas, end of december, the new year.
                                        > >
                                        >




                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Carol Kocian
                                        ... Agreed! The alternative is for the client to understand the compromise needed. The original dress was made with lots of structure and with the actress
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 20, 2012
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                                          On Nov 20, 2012, at 6:16 AM, Naresha wrote:

                                          > No fittings? That's going to be exceptionally problematic even
                                          > with the most precise and detailed measurements, especially with a
                                          > dress that is designed to hug the body and moreover, NEEDS to in
                                          > order to support itself, you will need fittings.


                                          Agreed! The alternative is for the client to understand the
                                          compromise needed. The original dress was made with lots of structure
                                          and with the actress available for fittings. I don't think you're
                                          going to get that exact dress, but you can get some features. The
                                          fabric, the color and the trimming will look beautiful even if it's
                                          not the exact lines.

                                          The patterns you've shown will be beautiful gowns, the only
                                          difference is that they do not have the heavy sleeves. You're not
                                          looking at the off-the-shoulder neckline.

                                          Plus you were talking about a stretch velvet, which will behave
                                          differently than a woven fabric. Your fitting "muslin" will need to
                                          have similar stretch to your stretch velvet.

                                          Part of the conversation with the client is, what parts of the
                                          original gown does she like the best? What does it need to have, vs.
                                          what can be compromised in order to be able to make it long-distance?

                                          -Carol
                                        • Jim or Chris Porter
                                          Would it help with the weight if the bodice and skirt were constructed a separate pieces? ________________________________ From: Naresha
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Nov 20, 2012
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                                            Would it help with the weight if the bodice and skirt were constructed a separate pieces?




                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Naresha <north_shore_fruitcake@...>
                                            To: "F-Costume@yahoogroups.com" <F-Costume@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 4:16 AM
                                            Subject: Re: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


                                             
                                            No fittings?  That's going to be exceptionally problematic even with the most precise and detailed measurements, especially with a dress that is designed to hug the body and moreover, NEEDS to in order to support itself, you will need fittings.  I recently made a strapless sun dress for a friend of mine (admittedly this was the most complicated sun dress I have ever come across - A Vogue pattern with 27 different pattern pieces) and with my mother, the seamstress taking it over due to the ridiculously tight time frame involved, we still both struggled to get this dress to fit properly with almost weekly fittings.  We got to the point of putting the dress on her, noting the required changes/pinning etc, making the alterations, putting it back on her, checking, amending etc multiple times each fitting. (Note to self: never agree to make three dresses in less than three months when every pattern requires modification or is overly complicated to begin
                                            with!)  We ran out of time to make it 110% smooth and perfect but it stayed up, sat nicely, looked good on and she loved it.  Even with the experience of both me and my mother and the patience of our client, we both nearly ended up bald we tore our hair out so much with this dress and getting the foundation to the point where it was good enough for the dress to fit and be wearable.  We could quite easily have spent at least another month finenessing it to the point of perfection.

                                            One good find from this project was the material I used on the foundation - horsehair interfacing.  Thick but not overly stiff - it, along with a few bones, helped make the dress look really nice and finished and definitely helped in giving that extra bit of stiffness for keeping a strapless dress in place. Check the pattern before you get too carried away with looking for a second pattern for a foundation garment - a lot of them may already have a foundation built into pattern.  I would definitely ask if you can have a look at the instruction sheets - as others have suggested, just explain what information you're wanting from them and with any luck, they'll show you or be able to give you some advice based around their own knowledge and experience.

                                            As for the measurements...  I've learned only to trust measurements I take myself. When making things for overseas friends, I have had instances where a basic t-shirt dress dress meant for a petite size 8-10 (Australian) fitted their plus size 14-16 partner - and that was after I supplied a measurement chart and instructions!  Thankfully it was such a basic shape (and for a close friend) that in the end, they shipped me a t-shirt that had the fit they wanted when they sent the dress back and I picked the seams apart and hacked the dress down to the correct size based on that.  If your client is providing their own measurements, then make sure they understand that the finished product will be based on those measurements and that you can only make it based on what she tells you - with any luck, a run down of the things raised here will perhaps assist in persuading her to take the time to come to you for a fitting or two or accepting the added cost of
                                            you going to her with the dress for fittings and definitely go with Sarah's suggestion of a deposit that covers your materials and first few hours of work on this project.

                                            ________________________________
                                            From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                            To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Tuesday, 20 November 2012 5:56 AM
                                            Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


                                             
                                            Do you know of any good patterns for the foundation garment I could use? Ideal fabrics? I know that coutil is used alot in corsets....

                                            So the foundation is sewn into the side seams of the dress with a waist ribbon belt that is slightly smaller than the waist and closed with hook+eye..and obviously the dress is closed with whatever closure (zipper in my case)...is that right?

                                            Usually when I buy patterns I get them online, but I've started to get them from the fabric department when I'm in the capitial. They are kept in a bunch of cabinets behind a sort of bar thing where they keep the catalogs so I dont think you're actually allowed to rummage for yourself, have to ask a staff member for the specific one you want. Could always ask next time I'm in there. :)

                                            I refuse to so much as buy a button until I get those measurements, so all I can do is twiddle my thumbs and seek advice on this dress.

                                            Fittings? I wish I had the luxury of such a thing. We live in separate areas of the country, so honestly the first time I'll know if it fits her properly on not is when she tries on the final garment.

                                            This is my first time making something that isn't designed to fit me specifically.....This dress will make me have premature grey hairs at the end!

                                            --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Yeah, like that. The foundation is like an almost-corset (it's not designed to squeeze you, just to fit really closely so your waist can support the dress) that is stiff enough to basically hang the dress off the top of it. So the bones go at least from the waist up to the top, to hold it up. The foundation will have its own pattern pieces, because it will have less ease than the dress bodice that you see, and if the dress has any style details like pleats or ruching, those obviously won't be in the foundation either.
                                            > If the dress is really heavy like the one you are looking at making, you might want the foundation to extend down to the hip level, so the hips also help to support the dress. But the ribbon belt at the waist is also key, it may be as much as an inch tighter even than the foundation, firmly tacked to it at all the seams and here and there between, and closed with a big hook and eye or two.
                                            >
                                            > on looking at pattern instructions:
                                            > I often sit down at the table by the pattern cabinets in the store, where the catalogs are, and take just the instruction sheets out, if I want to check what the pattern shapes are or something. Some things you can't tell from the line drawings. obviously I don't unfold the tissue, and I put everything back exactly as it was, so the next person won't be inconvenienced. I guess I'm also a regular enough customer so they know I'm not going to cause trouble! :D
                                            >
                                            > Not having accurate measurements is a big red light... You need those to start with, and they need to be taken over the bra or shaper she plans to wear under the finished costume. She needs to wear those for all the fittings too, from the first muslin to the final hem-check.
                                            > I suggest not buying any materials before you get a sufficient deposit to cover them and your first few hours. Installments are good for everyone's cash flow...
                                            > S
                                            >
                                            > On 11/19/2012 9:50 AM, Hazel Daniel wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Oh! You mean kinda like having a separate boned bodice sewn into the dress, kinda like a sandwich?
                                            > >
                                            > > Really? I thought you weren't allowed to remove the instructions in the shop. The nearest place that sells any sort of patterns in the capital, which is half hour train ride away.
                                            > >
                                            > > I don't even have accurate measurements for my client, she says she'll give them to me when she pays for the commission itself after christmas, end of december, the new year.
                                            > >
                                            >

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Hazel Daniel
                                            Awwwww man.......*headdesk* I swear someone up there has it in for me. Just when I think I ve found a pattern....
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Nov 23, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Awwwww man.......*headdesk* I swear someone up there has it in for me. Just when I think I've found a pattern....

                                              --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, slc_fire <slc_fire@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
                                              >  
                                              > Sheree
                                              >  
                                              > Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ________________________________
                                              > From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                              > To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
                                              > Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help
                                              >
                                              >  
                                              > Different pattern perhaps?
                                              >
                                              > I found this on the vogue website
                                              >
                                              > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850
                                              >
                                              > If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?
                                              >
                                              > I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              >
                                            • Jim or Chris Porter
                                              There is a similar Vintage Vogue in the current catalog that does not seem to have the collar. Perhaps it is less origami-like?
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Nov 23, 2012
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                                                There is a similar Vintage Vogue in the current catalog that does not seem to have the collar. Perhaps it is less origami-like?



                                                ________________________________
                                                From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                                To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 3:59 AM
                                                Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help


                                                 
                                                Awwwww man.......*headdesk* I swear someone up there has it in for me. Just when I think I've found a pattern....

                                                --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, slc_fire <slc_fire@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I've made this dress. It is a ROYAL bleep bleep BLEEEP.... it's a very difficult convoluted neckline. My mother is a professional seamstress and she was cussing like a sailor. It's a gorgeous dress but it takes serious patience and a bachelor degree in engineering to understand the neck. The pictures are deceiving. It’s almost like fabric origami. I’m not kidding. You have to cut, pinch, tuck, iron, and pray.
                                                >  
                                                > Sheree
                                                >  
                                                > Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ________________________________
                                                > From: Hazel Daniel <hazel.daniel@...>
                                                > To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 9:08 AM
                                                > Subject: [F-Costume] Re: Pattern Mod help
                                                >
                                                >  
                                                > Different pattern perhaps?
                                                >
                                                > I found this on the vogue website
                                                >
                                                > http://voguepatterns.mccall.com/v2903-products-4894.php?page_id=850
                                                >
                                                > If I simply lengthen it and not pleat it, and bone the bodice to help support all the fabric in the skirt and sleeves as you kind folks have suggested.....would that work?
                                                >
                                                > I was a little put off before since its a fabric muncher, with the alterations I'll probably need about 10.....maybe 11 or 12 metres of fabric.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >




                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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