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Re: Stardust - Tristan's Costume

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  • jlmonolith
    OK, I see what you re saying, and that makes sense. Thanks for the idea! ... the ... lining ... other
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 23, 2009
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      OK, I see what you're saying, and that makes sense. Thanks for the
      idea!

      --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Sarah Strong <sarahstrong13@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > about the pleats in the back and the lining, I think what you would do
      > is assemble the body above the waist, including the lining, but don't
      > baste the layers together at the waist. Assemble the tails, including
      > the lining, do baste the layers together at the waist, and then make
      the
      > pleats and set the tails onto the body at the waist. Sew the pleated
      > tails (fabric and lining) to the fabric of the body and leave the
      lining
      > free. Then turn in the edge of the lining and hand sew it over the
      other
      > raw edges.
      > Can't wait to see pix!!
      > S
      >
    • jlmonolith
      I see how this will cause the bottom to flare, but is that really necessary to do along with the pleating? I figured the way the pleats unfold at the bottom
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 23, 2009
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        I see how this will cause the bottom to flare, but is that really
        necessary to do along with the pleating? I figured the way the pleats
        unfold at the bottom would cause enough flare action as they open up
        without having to add any extra length along the bottom. This is what I
        see happening with a kilt that I own, and I measured those pleats to see
        that they are in fact rectangular from top to bottom.

        --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Cat Devereaux <CatDevereaux@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > >> On to the coat...
        > >> 3) Split the center back below the waist.
        > >> 4) Add 3 knife pleats to the back of the skirt on both sides.
        >
        > Don't do standard knife pleats, you want them to flare. So, you're cut
        > and spread is going to put most of the separation on the bottom of the
        > pleat. http://www.vintagesewing.info/1940s/4x-lgcm/illust/112.jpg
        (Pic
        > is from this page:
        > http://www.vintagesewing.info/1940s/4x-lgcm/lgcm-10.html )
        >
        > -Cat-
        >
      • Cat Devereaux
        ... necessary to do along with the pleating? I figured the way the pleats unfold at the bottom would cause enough flare action as they open up without having
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 24, 2009
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          >> I see how this will cause the bottom to flare, but is that really
          necessary to do along with the pleating? I figured the way the pleats
          unfold at the bottom would cause enough flare action as they open up
          without having to add any extra length along the bottom.

          Sorry... that pic isn't quite exact enough. Yes, definately you
          can/should still do the pleats.... but a standard knife pleat is even
          width from top to bottom. You want to flare those pleats. Cut and
          spread so the top is much more narrow than the bottom... that gives you
          the fancy flare cure. No, not extra length along the bottom.... a
          trick actually is to make it a scoch shorter... so when the bias cut of
          the pleated piece doesn't stretch out below the hem of the outer layer.


          >> This is what I
          see happening with a kilt that I own, and I measured those pleats to see
          that they are in fact rectangular from top to bottom.

          Yes, a pleated kilt will do somewhat the same thing... but also
          remember, a kilt has a lot more pleats. That circular cut to the
          pleating is a tradition in 17-19 century coats. The modern vent or
          single straight pleat reduces the flamboyance and is used for more
          modern coats.

          I've added a few pics to illustrate including a line drawing of a
          17th(?) century coat pattern. You can see the pleating more accurately
          there.

          ( I haven't a clue where these were from. They were in my private
          stash. Aplogees from all they were swiped from. )

          -Cat-
        • Sarah Strong
          Kilt pleats are in fact very slightly tapered, although it s hard to see because each one is so small. Below the sewn area, they are pressed right along the
          Message 4 of 17 , Jun 24, 2009
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            Kilt pleats are in fact very slightly tapered, although it's hard to see
            because each one is so small. Below the sewn area, they are pressed
            right along the stripe, at least on the outside, but in the sewn area,
            the top is smaller than the bottom. If it wasn't the kilt would fall
            off. It does have to be done very smoothly so there isn't a bubble at
            the bottom of the sewing or ripples below it. Done right, the kilt fits
            between the waist and hip, and then falls with just a tiny, tiny flare
            below.
            Test the coat pleats in your mockup to see what hangs and looks best.
            S

            jlmonolith wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > I see how this will cause the bottom to flare, but is that really
            > necessary to do along with the pleating? I figured the way the pleats
            > unfold at the bottom would cause enough flare action as they open up
            > without having to add any extra length along the bottom. This is what I
            > see happening with a kilt that I own, and I measured those pleats to see
            > that they are in fact rectangular from top to bottom.
            >
          • jlmonolith
            I need some help figuring out how to construct this back part of the coat. Here s a picture with some markings of what I m talking about:
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 7, 2009
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              I need some help figuring out how to construct this back part of the coat. Here's a picture with some markings of what I'm talking about:
              http://i27.tinypic.com/1zxr2ib.jpg

              It's the part circled in red that I can't seem to figure out how it fits in with everything else. I understand the pleats on the skirt, and what's highlighted in green is all one piece. But is that bit circled in red an extension of the skirt, or maybe part of the center back/tail, or is it another piece all by itself? The skirt and the tail have to be attached, so that makes fitting in this extra piece more confusing. And if it is part of the skirt, is the skirt piece still rectangular on that end, or are there some special angles cut into there to make that work? This is why I need some help.

              - Jeffrey
            • Cat Devereaux
              (long reply ahead, teaching content involved.) ... coat. Here s a picture with some markings of what I m talking about:
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 7, 2009
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                (long reply ahead, teaching content involved.)

                >> I need some help figuring out how to construct this back part of the
                coat. Here's a picture with some markings of what I'm talking about:
                <http://i27.tinypic.com/1zxr2ib.jpg>

                Don't feel back about it... I hadn't a clue either... but was in the
                mood for a challenge.

                Since the search did take a couple of hours (but hey, new knowledge is
                always good), I'm going to explain how I found it soooooooooo folks can
                do like searches in the future. I was thinking best I could do would be
                able to find a line drawing of a commercial pattern... so I went to
                our friend Google... and started with variations of "British Military
                Uniforms" because I though that's where I'd seen the detailing.
                Anyway... fumbling though their suggestions on variation of History (to
                get rid of the modern) and frock coat (with and w/o spacing), went to
                Tail Coat even though that's the wrong term... BUT... follow Google's
                suggestions... they take you places, good places. The links sent me to
                a cosplay board... and then back to a site we don't mention often
                enough... Costumer's Manifesto ( www.costumes.org ). They're a great
                place to go for an intro look into a historic period and then some deep
                and fab info that expands on that overview. One warning, they may have
                more pages than we do.

                Anyway... on to the discovery that's already been bookmarked,
                http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/1893to1898cuttersguide.htm
                . The Cutter's Practical Guide to Cutting Every Kind of Garment Made,
                1893-1898 by W. D. F. Vincent . And ya know... for once... the title
                claim is not an exaggerations. The book itself is out of print, but
                there are scans available. (I want a hard copy!!!!!) OK.... Snoopy
                happy dance over... search tips bit over... on to da question.

                */
                /*http://i27.tinypic.com/1zxr2ib.jpg
                <http://i27.tinypic.com/1zxr2ib.jpg> It's the part circled in red that
                I can't seem to figure out how it fits in with everything else. I
                understand the pleats on the skirt, and what's highlighted in green is
                all one piece. But is that bit circled in red an extension of the skirt,
                or maybe part of the center back/tail, or is it another piece all by
                itself? The skirt and the tail have to be attached, so that makes
                fitting in this extra piece more confusing. And if it is part of the
                skirt, is the skirt piece still rectangular on that end, or are there
                some special angles cut into there to make that work?

                On the link above... look at Part 13, The Cutter's Practical Guide to
                Cutting & Making all kinds of British Military Uniforms.
                http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/index.htm or
                the whole 8 plus megs in one gulp,
                http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/pdf/13_00_vol13.pdf .

                Some vocabulary:
                - The jacket is called a "tunic" most times, though sometimes "doublet"
                - The lower section of the tunic below the waist is the "skirt"
                - The upper section of the tunic is the "body"
                - That fun bit with the points, is a "sword flap"

                See the "sword flap" inserted into coat detail on page 8.... it's a
                double point, but same thing. It shows extra seams in the tunic skirt
                to insert the small piece that has the sword flap. The whole skirt is
                then attached to the body. In this example there's about 1" that shows
                clear. Since Tristan's skirt is more flared, it's probably much
                narrower at the join of the body and skirt. (Note, it also talked about
                the flap being shorter than the rest of the skirt... we talked about
                this before when talking about Tristan's coat). More on page 9.

                Page 8,
                http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/pages/13_08.htm
                Page 9,
                http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/pages/13_09.htm

                The extra gem is on page 13,
                http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/pages/13_13.htm

                The pattern piece is laid on sideways on the coat pattern. Note the
                letters show the join points at the center back.

                Hope that helps w/ your basic question.

                ******************************
                To anyone who's still reading... part two of the mail is coming latter
                this afternoon... basically... why you want to bookmark this scanned
                book... if you care about fitting or tailoring... or steampunk (yea,
                seriously).

                More later... I'm having too much fun going though the books right now.

                -Cat-
              • slc_fire
                OMG Cat where was this fabu piece of research before Dragon Con!! Love it! Thanks. I am so going to read every bit of it! Sheree Life may not be the party
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 7, 2009
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                  OMG Cat where was this fabu piece of research before Dragon Con!! Love it! Thanks. I am so going to read every bit of it!

                  Sheree Life may not be the party we hoped for... but while we are here we might as well dance!




                  ________________________________
                  From: Cat Devereaux <CatDevereaux@...>
                  To: F-Costume@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, September 7, 2009 4:59:47 PM
                  Subject: Re: [F-Costume] Re: Stardust - Tristan's Costume

                   
                  (long reply ahead, teaching content involved.)

                  >> I need some help figuring out how to construct this back part of the
                  coat. Here's a picture with some markings of what I'm talking about:
                  <http://i27.tinypic com/1zxr2ib. jpg>

                  Don't feel back about it... I hadn't a clue either... but was in the
                  mood for a challenge.

                  Since the search did take a couple of hours (but hey, new knowledge is
                  always good), I'm going to explain how I found it soooooooooo folks can
                  do like searches in the future. I was thinking best I could do would be
                  able to find a line drawing of a commercial pattern... so I went to
                  our friend Google... and started with variations of "British Military
                  Uniforms" because I though that's where I'd seen the detailing.
                  Anyway... fumbling though their suggestions on variation of History (to
                  get rid of the modern) and frock coat (with and w/o spacing), went to
                  Tail Coat even though that's the wrong term... BUT... follow Google's
                  suggestions. .. they take you places, good places. The links sent me to
                  a cosplay board... and then back to a site we don't mention often
                  enough... Costumer's Manifesto ( www.costumes. org ). They're a great
                  place to go for an intro look into a historic period and then some deep
                  and fab info that expands on that overview. One warning, they may have
                  more pages than we do.

                  Anyway... on to the discovery that's already been bookmarked,
                  http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/1893to1898cuttersguide.htm
                  . The Cutter's Practical Guide to Cutting Every Kind of Garment Made,
                  1893-1898 by W. D. F. Vincent . And ya know... for once... the title
                  claim is not an exaggerations. The book itself is out of print, but
                  there are scans available. (I want a hard copy!!!!!) OK.... Snoopy
                  happy dance over... search tips bit over... on to da question.

                  */
                  /*http://i27.tinypic com/1zxr2ib. jpg
                  <http://i27.tinypic com/1zxr2ib. jpg> It's the part circled in red that
                  I can't seem to figure out how it fits in with everything else. I
                  understand the pleats on the skirt, and what's highlighted in green is
                  all one piece. But is that bit circled in red an extension of the skirt,
                  or maybe part of the center back/tail, or is it another piece all by
                  itself? The skirt and the tail have to be attached, so that makes
                  fitting in this extra piece more confusing. And if it is part of the
                  skirt, is the skirt piece still rectangular on that end, or are there
                  some special angles cut into there to make that work?

                  On the link above... look at Part 13, The Cutter's Practical Guide to
                  Cutting & Making all kinds of British Military Uniforms.
                  http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/index.htm or
                  the whole 8 plus megs in one gulp,
                  http://www.costumes .org/history/ victorian/ CPG/13/pdf/ 13_00_vol13. pdf .

                  Some vocabulary:
                  - The jacket is called a "tunic" most times, though sometimes "doublet"
                  - The lower section of the tunic below the waist is the "skirt"
                  - The upper section of the tunic is the "body"
                  - That fun bit with the points, is a "sword flap"

                  See the "sword flap" inserted into coat detail on page 8.... it's a
                  double point, but same thing. It shows extra seams in the tunic skirt
                  to insert the small piece that has the sword flap. The whole skirt is
                  then attached to the body. In this example there's about 1" that shows
                  clear. Since Tristan's skirt is more flared, it's probably much
                  narrower at the join of the body and skirt. (Note, it also talked about
                  the flap being shorter than the rest of the skirt... we talked about
                  this before when talking about Tristan's coat). More on page 9.

                  Page 8,
                  http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/pages/13_08.htm
                  Page 9,
                  http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/pages/13_09.htm

                  The extra gem is on page 13,
                  http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/pages/13_13.htm

                  The pattern piece is laid on sideways on the coat pattern. Note the
                  letters show the join points at the center back.

                  Hope that helps w/ your basic question.

                  ************ ********* *********
                  To anyone who's still reading... part two of the mail is coming latter
                  this afternoon... basically... why you want to bookmark this scanned
                  book... if you care about fitting or tailoring... or steampunk (yea,
                  seriously).

                  More later... I'm having too much fun going though the books right now.

                  -Cat-







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sarah Strong
                  WOW, what a fabboo resource! I notice that in each case it has the actual draft, how to draw each pattern piece to your measurements, so you aren t stuck with
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 7, 2009
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                    WOW, what a fabboo resource! I notice that in each case it has the
                    actual draft, how to draw each pattern piece to your measurements, so
                    you aren't stuck with just blowing up a single size and hoping it fits you.

                    Cat Devereaux wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > (long reply ahead, teaching content involved.)
                    >
                    [snip]
                  • Cat Devereaux
                    Actually the title is to just get folks to read this continuation of the last message... but I really am going to talk about Steampunk design tips. Book link:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 7, 2009
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                      Actually the title is to just get folks to read this continuation of the
                      last message... but I really am going to talk about Steampunk design tips.

                      Book link:
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/1893to1898cuttersguide.htm
                      *The Cutter's Practical Guide 1893-1898/ by W. D. F. Vincent

                      /*To continue talking about part 13, the making of British Military
                      Uniforms, skim the pictures... there are all kinds of braid, cuff,
                      collar examples to inspire you to make any pattern that's vaguely
                      Victorian, more Victorian, more snazzed up. (Heck, I'm adding this kind
                      of braiding to a store bought jacket.) You can pick up a basic
                      coat/vest in a thrift shop... and convert it.


                      OK... now some notes on other parts... in no particular rambling order...

                      Part 10: http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/10/gallery/index.htm

                      First yummy part, fitting a vest. Why should you care??? Two reasons.

                      For Steampunk, lots of neat shapes for vests, excuse me waist coats, and
                      you can see the pattern shapes.
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/10/gallery/pages/10_02.htm
                      Take a vest that kinds fits you, tweak the pattern pieces making
                      shoulders wider, adding a collar, changing the buttoning in front, etc.
                      By seeing the pattern pieces, even if they look so weirdly shaped, you
                      know you're on the right path.
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/10/gallery/pages/10_30.htm

                      And then note what that section is actually showing... wrinkles and
                      where you should adjust fit wise!!!!! Hey, this isn't just for vest...
                      it's for regular jackets, dresses... the wrinkles are in the same
                      place. You can see where the fabric is added and where it's taken
                      away. Yes, you can buy this in current books, but... this is free and
                      as close as a bookmark away.

                      What's also cool... the vest section, just like the uniforms section
                      talks about acomidating different sizes... ie mods for plus size
                      patterning, and other non standard shapping.

                      What is fun is also reading the listing and details for the morning
                      version, vs. evening vs. court, verse job type. Amazing amount of
                      details. Not only is it good to know when you're making a historical
                      garment... but it you're going the opposite direction, picking a style
                      and trying to figure out your Steampunk character, what you're chosing,
                      you can give yourself an idea based on what you're wearing. ;-)

                      *************************************
                      All about coats: http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/1893cutters2a.htm
                      Lots of detail about the arm scye, ease. The text really helps you with
                      fit because it's not just talking about the measurements, but how the
                      measurements work together with scale on your body. Frustratingly the
                      pics are separate from most of the text, and you can't just hit next.
                      BUT, worth it. This section has wonderfully detailed instructions on how
                      to apply the measurements and considerations to fit and shape.
                      *****************************
                      trousers: http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/3/gallery/index.htm

                      Layout is easier to browse.
                      Lots of details on how to make the seat work, the build up you need for
                      suspenders to work right. All the bits of inner lining for pockets, how
                      to do a button front fly in total with options of single, double, full
                      front, all kinds of detail, trouser legs, including how to make popper
                      bell bottoms. !!!!

                      If you're obsessive with fit... he gets down into the details. Shows
                      the skeleton structure and how it fits. Show how the body flexes in
                      sitting and bending. He goes into a bit on grading a pattern,
                      different cutting systems. Your eyeballs with spin, or if you're into
                      details, you'll fall in lust.

                      Also patterning tips for riding breaches. Patterns for knickerbockers
                      and also spats and gators (think boot covers, but these are the original
                      ones). There's a military pattern version of a highland kilt,

                      Fun page, the different shapes of the coat skirt:
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/1893cutterspractguide/10.jpg
                      from a morning to a frock coat to tails, to livery... all together in
                      one page to look at the shape.
                      **************************************************
                      Part 9: Various Kinds of Robes, Gowns, Surplices, Hoods, Vestments :
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/1898cuttersguide9c.htm I almost
                      skipped. The first part looks more like regular coat jackets, but then
                      you get into things that are good for costumes again. There's the
                      section on academic robes that got all kinds of fun shapes and
                      decorations, as well as how to make those tight perfect pleats you see
                      on judges and graduation robes.

                      There's also a fair bit of clerical detail... but even more in section
                      12: http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/12/gallery/index.htm

                      This also has clerical cloaks and also has "solicitor robes" (ie garb
                      for lawyers - eek, that brings up some thoughts for scary costumes.)
                      Some of the pattern shapes are odd, it's nice to have the diagrams.

                      ************************************
                      Shirts... part 11:
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/c1898cuttersguide11a.htm

                      All kinds of shirts and how to measure and ease.
                      Collar and cuff styles:
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/cutterspracticalguide10_11/gallery/pages/11_23.htm
                      It's a joy. All the little bits of modification. detached or just
                      convert to a sewn on version.
                      Also, bits of pajamas, robes (those are silly), a surprise set of
                      pattern -- combinations (jumpsuit), overalls. They're just quick
                      patterns, you need to go to other sections for more details on how to
                      work the measurements, etc.

                      *************************************************
                      I almost skipped 9... looked so boring at first. Full title: The
                      Cutter's Practical Guide to Jacket Cutting and Making, Embracing
                      Lounges, Reefers & Patrol Jackets, in all their Varieties, Also
                      Including the Cutting and Making of Robes and Gown
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/100pages/1898cuttersguide9a.htm

                      That really looses something in the translation to modern English. The
                      basic part cover something closer to a modern suit jacket (with no
                      fitting seams in front and back). OK, so the first part is rather
                      boring standard Victorian... then... wonderful stuff for Steampunk ideas.

                      The belted Norfolk jackets;
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/cutterspt9/33.jpg Described
                      as for cycling and the sportsman w/ a gun. (Can it be a plasma gun?)
                      http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/cutterspt9/35.jpg

                      Highland Jacket pattern, and Highland Dress Jacket patterns.

                      Various fun sporting options for your Steampunk character.

                      ***********************************
                      Anyway... just some fun reading... give you some ideas for Halloween.
                      Use these pages to help decorate and modify current clothing.

                      -Cat-
                    • jlmonolith
                      Thank you so much for taking your time to find this! I ll have to take some time later to really read over it and understand all of what s being described,
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 8, 2009
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                        Thank you so much for taking your time to find this! I'll have to take some time later to really read over it and understand all of what's being described, but this seems like the right direction to go in. And now with this site, I'll be sure to also look up other parts I'm still not quite sure about.

                        Thanks again. :)

                        - Jeffrey

                        --- In F-Costume@yahoogroups.com, Cat Devereaux <CatDevereaux@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > (long reply ahead, teaching content involved.)
                        >
                        > [...]
                        >
                        > On the link above... look at Part 13, The Cutter's Practical Guide to
                        > Cutting & Making all kinds of British Military Uniforms.
                        > http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/index.htm or
                        > the whole 8 plus megs in one gulp,
                        > http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/pdf/13_00_vol13.pdf .
                        >
                        > Some vocabulary:
                        > - The jacket is called a "tunic" most times, though sometimes "doublet"
                        > - The lower section of the tunic below the waist is the "skirt"
                        > - The upper section of the tunic is the "body"
                        > - That fun bit with the points, is a "sword flap"
                        >
                        > See the "sword flap" inserted into coat detail on page 8.... it's a
                        > double point, but same thing. It shows extra seams in the tunic skirt
                        > to insert the small piece that has the sword flap. The whole skirt is
                        > then attached to the body. In this example there's about 1" that shows
                        > clear. Since Tristan's skirt is more flared, it's probably much
                        > narrower at the join of the body and skirt. (Note, it also talked about
                        > the flap being shorter than the rest of the skirt... we talked about
                        > this before when talking about Tristan's coat). More on page 9.
                        >
                        > Page 8,
                        > http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/pages/13_08.htm
                        > Page 9,
                        > http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/pages/13_09.htm
                        >
                        > The extra gem is on page 13,
                        > http://www.costumes.org/history/victorian/CPG/13/gallery/pages/13_13.htm
                        >
                        > The pattern piece is laid on sideways on the coat pattern. Note the
                        > letters show the join points at the center back.
                        >
                        > Hope that helps w/ your basic question.
                        >
                        > [...]
                        >
                        > -Cat-
                        >
                      • Cat Devereaux
                        ... It was fun... even if it sucked up the better part of the day... It had been quite a while since I d looked at that book. Filed in my brain under
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 9, 2009
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                          >> Thank you so much for taking your time to find this!

                          It was fun... even if it sucked up the better part of the day... It had
                          been quite a while since I'd looked at that book. Filed in my brain
                          under Historic, Guys, and then promptly dismissed. BUT, when Steampunk
                          being hot, whole sections become interesting for style and decoration.

                          I may have to dig past the dust into some of my books from that era.
                          Dover reprints a lot of those book. Stuff like the reprints of the
                          Sears catalog are just delicious for ideas. A big discovery is how many
                          trims are STILL created today, even if they're in different fibers..

                          >> I'll have to take some time later to really read over it and
                          understand all of what's being described, but this seems like the right
                          direction to go in. And now with this site, I'll be sure to also look up
                          other parts I'm still not quite sure about.

                          Sounds good. I just skimmed it, sections of it are good for womens
                          fittings as well... since the best reference for women,
                          www.vintagesewing.org (1040's section), presents a lot of the same
                          information much faster and more condesnced. It causes my eyes to
                          spin... so someone trying to graduate up from patterns might want to
                          start with these books, and then hit the pattern mods in the 1940 books.

                          -Cat-
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