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Re: [ExtensiveReading] Extensive listening

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  • rube39_@eml.cc
    Aren t we forgetting something (at least as language learners)? I don t watch Hanshin on TV to learn Japanese, I watch because I am a fan and follow the team.
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 16, 2002
      Aren't we forgetting something (at least as language learners)?
      I don't watch Hanshin on TV to learn Japanese, I watch because I am a
      fan and follow the team.
      When I watch foreign language news programs on TV, again it is because
      I am interested.
      In the real world, don' t we use language do to things, to learn
      things, to have fun, and not just to learn the language? Why do we want
      to learn the language anyway, if not to use it?
      I believe we acquire the language as a bi-product of both understanding
      it and using it in natural ways and for natural purposes.
      So when you see me at JALT or in Osaka drinking beers with Yoshie-han,
      rest assured I am not
      trying to work on my Japanese, but rather enjoying my life in a
      monolingual situation.

      Rube

      On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:17 PM, Julian Bamford wrote:

      > Clive (11/12/02) wonders: how much language can you / your S's learn
      > from
      > this kind of activity? ['This activity' being watching ungraded TV
      > shows
      > which some of my lower level students enjoy; I also enjoy watching some
      > Japanese TV shows which I can understand 20% of.]
      >
      > I agree, you can't learn new language. I think you're right that the
      > benefits for lower level students of watching ungraded TV shows--that
      > is,
      > doing ungraded extensive listening--are, as you say "improved listening
      > fluency for already known language, and improved tolerance of
      > ambiguity (or
      > incomprehension)?" To this, I'd add that you sometimes hear words you
      > already know well, but you hear them used in situations you wouldn't
      > expect. This broadens your knowledge of the word.
      >
      > When watching TV shows that you hardly understand, you also meet words
      > that (as you say, Clive) "I seem to have heard a thousand times and get
      > increasingly irritated that I haven't found out what they mean, . .
      > .I'm
      > eventually able to retain the sound of the word, even without its
      > meaning,
      > and look it up in a dictionary later [or, as Rory suggests, look it up
      > right away with an electronic dictionary]. Even then, I may forget the
      > meaning, if I can't remember one of the contexts in which I heard it."
      > Perhaps our ability to remember this type of word is in ratio to the
      > frustration we've accumulated in hearing it thousands of times and not
      > understanding. To this group of words, I'd add the words I've learned
      > and
      > forgotten and then meet again in the TV show, and I'm frustrated at not
      > remembering the meaning of this oh-so-familiar word. When I hear such
      > a
      > word, I desperately want to look it up and learn it again.
      >
      > Then Ian wrote, challenging the value of lower-level students
      > listening to
      > ungraded (difficult) TV shows: "Isn't this away from the idea of
      > extensive
      > reading? We wouldn't give a beginning student a level 6 Oxford reader.
      > But
      > aren't we doing this by plopping ourselves down in front of the tv? .
      > . .
      > . I still want to be convinced that watching tv is a worthwhile use of
      > learning time. In my own case, I feel that it was a waste of time
      > until I
      > got to an intermediate level. At that stage I was able to recognise the
      > everyday usuage of words and patterns that I had been studying more
      > formally."
      >
      > I guess it's only a worthwhile use of time if you think it is.
      > Actually,
      > the time I use and the students use is their free time. I know that
      > I'll
      > get more value from the ungraded extensive listening when my Japanese
      > level
      > is higher, but even now, some of the listening is comprehensible, and
      > of
      > value for the reasons Clive mentions above.
      >
      > Bottom line: I agree that, for ungraded extensive listening isn't
      > useful
      > for learning new items until you are at an intermediate or even
      > advanced
      > level. It's value (and pleasure) lie elsewhere.
      > Julian
      >
      >
      >
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      > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • Beniko Mason
      Rube, I understand you perfectly well. From Beniko Mason Beniko Mason International Buddhist University 3-2-1 Gakuenmae, Habikino-shi, Osaka 583-8501 (Phone)
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 16, 2002

        Rube, I understand you perfectly well. From Beniko Mason




        Beniko Mason
        International Buddhist University
        3-2-1 Gakuenmae, Habikino-shi, Osaka 583-8501
        (Phone) 0729-56-3181
        >From: rube39_@...
        >Reply-To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
        >To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Extensive listening
        >Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:53:02 +0900
        >
        >Aren't we forgetting something (at least as language learners)?
        >I don't watch Hanshin on TV to learn Japanese, I watch because I am a
        >fan and follow the team.
        >When I watch foreign language news programs on TV, again it is because
        >I am interested.
        >In the real world, don' t we use language do to things, to learn
        >things, to have fun, and not just to learn the language? Why do we want
        >to learn the language anyway, if not to use it?
        >I believe we acquire the language as a bi-product of both understanding
        >it and using it in natural ways and for natural purposes.
        >So when you see me at JALT or in Osaka drinking beers with Yoshie-han,
        >rest assured I am not
        >trying to work on my Japanese, but rather enjoying my life in a
        >monolingual situation.
        >
        >Rube
        >
        >On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:17 PM, Julian Bamford wrote:
        >
        > > Clive (11/12/02) wonders: how much language can you / your S's learn
        > > from
        > > this kind of activity? ['This activity' being watching ungraded TV
        > > shows
        > > which some of my lower level students enjoy; I also enjoy watching some
        > > Japanese TV shows which I can understand 20% of.]
        > >
        > > I agree, you can't learn new language. I think you're right that the
        > > benefits for lower level students of watching ungraded TV shows--that
        > > is,
        > > doing ungraded extensive listening--are, as you say "improved listening
        > > fluency for already known language, and improved tolerance of
        > > ambiguity (or
        > > incomprehension)?" To this, I'd add that you sometimes hear words you
        > > already know well, but you hear them used in situations you wouldn't
        > > expect. This broadens your knowledge of the word.
        > >
        > > When watching TV shows that you hardly understand, you also meet words
        > > that (as you say, Clive) "I seem to have heard a thousand times and get
        > > increasingly irritated that I haven't found out what they mean, . .
        > > .I'm
        > > eventually able to retain the sound of the word, even without its
        > > meaning,
        > > and look it up in a dictionary later [or, as Rory suggests, look it up
        > > right away with an electronic dictionary]. Even then, I may forget the
        > > meaning, if I can't remember one of the contexts in which I heard it."
        > > Perhaps our ability to remember this type of word is in ratio to the
        > > frustration we've accumulated in hearing it thousands of times and not
        > > understanding. To this group of words, I'd add the words I've learned
        > > and
        > > forgotten and then meet again in the TV show, and I'm frustrated at not
        > > remembering the meaning of this oh-so-familiar word. When I hear such
        > > a
        > > word, I desperately want to look it up and learn it again.
        > >
        > > Then Ian wrote, challenging the value of lower-level students
        > > listening to
        > > ungraded (difficult) TV shows: "Isn't this away from the idea of
        > > extensive
        > > reading? We wouldn't give a beginning student a level 6 Oxford reader.
        > > But
        > > aren't we doing this by plopping ourselves down in front of the tv? .
        > > . .
        > > . I still want to be convinced that watching tv is a worthwhile use of
        > > learning time. In my own case, I feel that it was a waste of time
        > > until I
        > > got to an intermediate level. At that stage I was able to recognise the
        > > everyday usuage of words and patterns that I had been studying more
        > > formally."
        > >
        > > I guess it's only a worthwhile use of time if you think it is.
        > > Actually,
        > > the time I use and the students use is their free time. I know that
        > > I'll
        > > get more value from the ungraded extensive listening when my Japanese
        > > level
        > > is higher, but even now, some of the listening is comprehensible, and
        > > of
        > > value for the reasons Clive mentions above.
        > >
        > > Bottom line: I agree that, for ungraded extensive listening isn't
        > > useful
        > > for learning new items until you are at an intermediate or even
        > > advanced
        > > level. It's value (and pleasure) lie elsewhere.
        > > Julian
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > ---------------------~-->
        > > Share the magic of Harry Potter with Yahoo! Messenger
        > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/4Q_cgB/JmBFAA/46VHAA/W_NqlB/TM
        > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > ~->
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >


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      • Clive Lovelock
        Dear Rube Down to earth and to the point as ever. Thanks for reminding us. In this case, I protest that I hadn t forgotten the power of personal interest to
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 18, 2002
          Dear Rube

          Down to earth and to the point as ever. Thanks for reminding us. In this
          case, I protest that I hadn't forgotten the power of personal interest
          to overcome language barriers, but was simply stressing a different
          angle on IL.

          You see how defensive you've made me? You touched my "irritation
          button". Perhaps it's the same one that sets off frustration when I find
          I've forgotten a Japanese word I thought I'd learnt, but in this case,
          the trigger is being accused of forgetting something when in fact I
          haven't. I reckon that discussions of "positive motivation" sometimes
          verge on "political correctness" - i.e. knee-jerk slavery to
          intellectual fashion. "We shouldn't forget" (to paraphrase you, Rube)
          there's also quite a lot to be said for negative motivation
          (frustration, stress, anxiety to do better, competition - yes, to me
          that's a negative - etc), as Julian points out - depending on the
          learner and learning situation. I hasten to add that I haven't yet found
          any evidence that applying electric shocks in the LL, or the use of
          blackmail, result in effective learning - though I'm reluctant to rule
          out the idea, psychologically speaking! That's a moral issue rather than
          a practical one.

          Anyway, Rube, this weekend, when I find you with a bagfull of "tinnies",
          please let me know which language you'd like to communicate in.

          Clive

          rube39_@... wrote:
          >
          > Aren't we forgetting something (at least as language learners)?
          > I don't watch Hanshin on TV to learn Japanese, I watch because I am a
          > fan and follow the team.
          > When I watch foreign language news programs on TV, again it is because
          > I am interested.
          > In the real world, don' t we use language do to things, to learn
          > things, to have fun, and not just to learn the language? Why do we want
          > to learn the language anyway, if not to use it?
          > I believe we acquire the language as a bi-product of both understanding
          > it and using it in natural ways and for natural purposes.
          > So when you see me at JALT or in Osaka drinking beers with Yoshie-han,
          > rest assured I am not
          > trying to work on my Japanese, but rather enjoying my life in a
          > monolingual situation.
          >
          > Rube
          >
          > On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:17 PM, Julian Bamford wrote:
          >
          > > Clive (11/12/02) wonders: how much language can you / your S's learn
          > > from
          > > this kind of activity? ['This activity' being watching ungraded TV
          > > shows
          > > which some of my lower level students enjoy; I also enjoy watching some
          > > Japanese TV shows which I can understand 20% of.]
          > >
          > > I agree, you can't learn new language. I think you're right that the
          > > benefits for lower level students of watching ungraded TV shows--that
          > > is,
          > > doing ungraded extensive listening--are, as you say "improved listening
          > > fluency for already known language, and improved tolerance of
          > > ambiguity (or
          > > incomprehension)?" To this, I'd add that you sometimes hear words you
          > > already know well, but you hear them used in situations you wouldn't
          > > expect. This broadens your knowledge of the word.
          > >
          > > When watching TV shows that you hardly understand, you also meet words
          > > that (as you say, Clive) "I seem to have heard a thousand times and get
          > > increasingly irritated that I haven't found out what they mean, . .
          > > .I'm
          > > eventually able to retain the sound of the word, even without its
          > > meaning,
          > > and look it up in a dictionary later [or, as Rory suggests, look it up
          > > right away with an electronic dictionary]. Even then, I may forget the
          > > meaning, if I can't remember one of the contexts in which I heard it."
          > > Perhaps our ability to remember this type of word is in ratio to the
          > > frustration we've accumulated in hearing it thousands of times and not
          > > understanding. To this group of words, I'd add the words I've learned
          > > and
          > > forgotten and then meet again in the TV show, and I'm frustrated at not
          > > remembering the meaning of this oh-so-familiar word. When I hear such
          > > a
          > > word, I desperately want to look it up and learn it again.
          > >
          > > Then Ian wrote, challenging the value of lower-level students
          > > listening to
          > > ungraded (difficult) TV shows: "Isn't this away from the idea of
          > > extensive
          > > reading? We wouldn't give a beginning student a level 6 Oxford reader.
          > > But
          > > aren't we doing this by plopping ourselves down in front of the tv? .
          > > . .
          > > . I still want to be convinced that watching tv is a worthwhile use of
          > > learning time. In my own case, I feel that it was a waste of time
          > > until I
          > > got to an intermediate level. At that stage I was able to recognise the
          > > everyday usuage of words and patterns that I had been studying more
          > > formally."
          > >
          > > I guess it's only a worthwhile use of time if you think it is.
          > > Actually,
          > > the time I use and the students use is their free time. I know that
          > > I'll
          > > get more value from the ungraded extensive listening when my Japanese
          > > level
          > > is higher, but even now, some of the listening is comprehensible, and
          > > of
          > > value for the reasons Clive mentions above.
          > >
          > > Bottom line: I agree that, for ungraded extensive listening isn't
          > > useful
          > > for learning new items until you are at an intermediate or even
          > > advanced
          > > level. It's value (and pleasure) lie elsewhere.
          > > Julian
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          > > ---------------------~-->
          > > Share the magic of Harry Potter with Yahoo! Messenger
          > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/4Q_cgB/JmBFAA/46VHAA/W_NqlB/TM
          > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
          > > ~->
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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