Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ExtensiveReading] Extensive listening

Expand Messages
  • Beniko Mason
    About EL: I am interested in knowing about the research on the effect of extensive listening too. I do not know of any studies, so I was being quiet, but as
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 1, 2002
    • 0 Attachment

      About EL:

      I am interested in knowing about the research on the effect of extensive listening too. I do not know of any studies, so I was being quiet, but as David mentioned about listening to radio programs for one activity for EL, I decided to tell you what I have been thinking and doing.

      I think that there are different things to listen to. There may be some radio programs that learners can understand as David Hill at EPER said. I use (1) storyytelling, (2) listening to tapes (not the tapes that come with graded readers) and (3) video tapes (not movies, video tapes that are made for second language learners).

      Among the three, I like storytelling for listening activity, because I can control the comprehensibility for the students while I am telling the story. I do not think it is very comprehensible when a teacher reads a book aloud, unless the book level is much lower than the learners' language level. But, when a teacher tells a story with a lot of redundancy, I think that storytelling is a good source of aural comprehensible input. 

      For it to become extensive, learners may need  to listen to a story every day. At the beginning a short story - 5 minutes or so, and then later a longer story - 30 minutes.

      The reason why I added storytelling in my ER progra is:

      In my extensive reading program, I have found that there are some students who seem to be more listening oriented than reading oriented. Also, there are some students who do not like to read at all even after several different approaches from the teacher's side. We provide different easy readers for them to have the "homerun book" experience, or I supply a great (?) orientation bookelt that I have prepared for them to read before they start an extensive reading program. Even then, there are some students who do not get hooked on books.

      Then I learned at an IRA conference one year (it was in 1991, I think) that storytelling was a good idea to stimulate reading. It is like a mother telling a story before her children go to bed, and children gradually get interested in reading by themselves). I wondered that second language learners may need to go through the same stage as the native children go through for literacy development.

      I also think that improving listening ability helps improve reading ability.

      I have been telling stories in my extensive reading classes for several years. I have found storytelling is not only good at helping reading and listening, but also good at vocabulary developemnt. When they listen to stories, thier vocabulary acquisition rate is found to be close to the native children's vocab acquisition rate (.25 per minute).

      One of my studies (Mason, 1991, a paper presented at the annuarl conference at the AAAL, St. Louis) shows that when students hear one story for 15 minutes,  they remember 4 words after one month as the result of listening to a story without any list leanrning or focus on form activities. 

      Story triggers imagination, which leads to memory, which leads to learning (Stevic, 1993).

      My students (19 -22) seem to like it. I have told stories to older learners (50-60 years old adult learners), and male students. They seem to like it.

      I know that this was not the exact answer you needed, but I could not keep myself from saying something.




      Beniko Mason
      International Buddhist University
      3-2-1 Gakuenmae, Habikino-shi, Osaka 583-8501
      (Phone) 0729-56-3181
      >From: "Eper Enquiries"
      >Reply-To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
      >To:
      >Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Extensive listening
      >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:44:38 -0000
      >
      >I am reminded of the possibly apocryphal story of the student who joined a
      >well-known language school and promptly broke some limbs and was
      >hospitalised for three months. On his return to the school for the second
      >term, he was found to be far ahead of his peers. His progress was
      >attributed to listening to Radio 4 solidly for 3 months.
      >
      >
      >David R Hill
      >EPER (Edinburgh Project on Extensive Reading)
      >IALS (Institute for Applied Language Studies)
      >University of Edinburgh, 21 Hill Place, Edinburgh EH8 9DP
      >Tel: 0131 650 8211/6200 Fax: 0131 667 5927
      >Website: www.ials.ed.ac.uk/eper.html
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: "Julian Bamford"
      >To:
      >Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 4:07 AM
      >Subject: [ExtensiveReading] Extensive listening
      >
      >
      > > >From Julian: I'm posting this message on behalf of Willy Renandya who
      >isn't
      > > on this list, and is co-editor of one of the best books on extensive
      > > reading (Jacobs, G.M., Davis, C., and Renendya, W.A. (Eds.) Successful
      > > strategies for extensive reading. Singapore: SEAMEO Regional Language
      > > Centre). I'll pass on your responses.
      > > Willy says, "I'm trying to get an MA student do a study on
      > > extensive listening. If extensive reading is good, then extensive
      > > listening should be good too, shouldn't it? Do you know of any studies on
      > > extensive listening? If you have come across any, I'd be most grateful if
      > > you could let me know."
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      >


      Broadband?�Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. Click Here
    • Rob Waring
      Hi I have conducted a small scale case study on the effect of extensive listening in a second language (English). It has not and will never be published
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 4, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi

        I have conducted a small scale case study on the effect of extensive
        listening in a second language (English). It has not and will never
        be published because the method of assessment was suspect and rather
        ad hoc. Nevertheless the case study tended to show that the
        listeners (2 college age japanese students) found it comfortable to
        listen to recordings of graded readers at about 2 levels below their
        reading ability (ie the GR level they felt comfortable with). I
        asked them to select tapes with 95% comprehension, few unknown words
        and so on.

        At this rate the subjects listened to 10 tapes each over the period
        of one month. Both subjects (who before the experiment considered
        themselves poor listeners) said that it was the most beneficial
        listening they had ever done. I asked them to listen to each tape 4
        times, The first for gist, the second for more information and the
        third was detailed listening where things were unclear, and finally
        once more through. So this was in effect both IL and EL. At the
        detailed listening stage they were allowed to refer to the original
        text if things were unclear.

        I conducted no concurrent listening with them, although they would
        have has listening in their normal classes and I did not do a pre
        post independent listening test either. Moreover I cannot say whether
        the IL or EL made the difference. What I can say is that the task
        was beneficial to the subjects.

        There is a great phd here for someone!
        --
        Best regards,

        Rob Waring
        Notre Dame Seishin University,
        2-16-9 Ifuku-cho,
        Okayama,
        Japan. 700-8516
        +81 86 252 3102 (direct)
        +81 86 252 5734 (fax)
      • Clive Lovelock
        Thanks you Beniko. I found your detailed description of your story-telling very interesting and it finally prompted me to add one or two comments about E.I.
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 4, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks you Beniko. I found your detailed description of your
          story-telling very interesting and it finally prompted me to add one or
          two comments about E.I. that no one seems to have mentioned so far.

          Grading of language with listening is even more important than with
          reading. In countries like Japan, at least, where students get most of
          their English at high school through reading, and where listening
          perception (plain old hearing) is severely impaired by the use of
          katakana (the transcription of foreign words into Japanese phonology),
          students are virtually deaf to the sounds of English. Many have the
          utmost difficulty understanding texts which would be way below their
          E.R. comprehesion level. Therefore, when selecting texts for listening,
          the level of the language should be below the student's reading level.

          The only possible exceptions to this principle I can think of offhand
          would be as folows:
          - students read the text while listening - in which case it is
          questionable whether it would qualify as listening practice in the sense
          of improving students' ability to hear fluent speakers of the TL.
          - a text that is very liberally illustrated, so that students can
          "read" the pictures - or a movie. But then the dialogue in most movies
          is way too difficult for many students.
          - a delivery of the text in an unnaturally slow (and therefore, almost
          certainly phonologially distorted) way. Again, this is hardlt useful
          training for improving listening perception. In my opinion it's almost
          as bad as using katakana pronunciation.

          CL

          Beniko Mason wrote:
          >
          > About EL:
          >
          > I am interested in knowing about the research on the effect of
          > extensive listening too. I do not know of any studies, so I was being
          > quiet, but as David mentioned about listening to radio programs for
          > one activity for EL, I decided to tell you what I have been thinking
          > and doing.
          >
          > I think that there are different things to listen to. There may be
          > some radio programs that learners can understand as David Hill at EPER
          > said. I use (1) storyytelling, (2) listening to tapes (not the tapes
          > that come with graded readers) and (3) video tapes (not movies, video
          > tapes that are made for second language learners).
          >
          > Among the three, I like storytelling for listening activity, because I
          > can control the comprehensibility for the students while I am telling
          > the story. I do not think it is very comprehensible when a teacher
          > reads a book aloud, unless the book level is much lower than the
          > learners' language level. But, when a teacher tells a story with a lot
          > of redundancy, I think that storytelling is a good source of aural
          > comprehensible input.
          >
          > For it to become extensive, learners may need to listen to a story
          > every day. At the beginning a short story - 5 minutes or so, and then
          > later a longer story - 30 minutes.
          >
          > The reason why I added storytelling in my ER progra is:
          >
          > In my extensive reading program, I have found that there are some
          > students who seem to be more listening oriented than reading oriented.
          > Also, there are some students who do not like to read at all even
          > after several different approaches from the teacher's side. We provide
          > different easy readers for them to have the "homerun book" experience,
          > or I supply a great (?) orientation bookelt that I have prepared for
          > them to read before they start an extensive reading program. Even
          > then, there are some students who do not get hooked on books.
          >
          > Then I learned at an IRA conference one year (it was in 1991, I think)
          > that storytelling was a good idea to stimulate reading. It is like a
          > mother telling a story before her children go to bed, and children
          > gradually get interested in reading by themselves). I wondered that
          > second language learners may need to go through the same stage as the
          > native children go through for literacy development.
          >
          > I also think that improving listening ability helps improve reading
          > ability.
          >
          > I have been telling stories in my extensive reading classes for
          > several years. I have found storytelling is not only good at helping
          > reading and listening, but also good at vocabulary developemnt. When
          > they listen to stories, thier vocabulary acquisition rate is found to
          > be close to the native children's vocab acquisition rate (.25 per
          > minute).
          >
          > One of my studies (Mason, 1991, a paper presented at the annuarl
          > conference at the AAAL, St. Louis) shows that when students hear one
          > story for 15 minutes, they remember 4 words after one month as the
          > result of listening to a story without any list leanrning or focus on
          > form activities.
          >
          > Story triggers imagination, which leads to memory, which leads to
          > learning (Stevic, 1993).
          >
          > My students (19 -22) seem to like it. I have told stories to older
          > learners (50-60 years old adult learners), and male students. They
          > seem to like it.
          >
          > I know that this was not the exact answer you needed, but I could not
          > keep myself from saying something.
          >
          > Beniko Mason
          > International Buddhist University
          > 3-2-1 Gakuenmae, Habikino-shi, Osaka 583-8501
          > (Phone) 0729-56-3181
          > >From: "Eper Enquiries"
          > >Reply-To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
          > >To:
          > >Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Extensive listening
          > >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:44:38 -0000
          > >
          > >I am reminded of the possibly apocryphal story of the student who
          > joined a
          > >well-known language school and promptly broke some limbs and was
          > >hospitalised for three months. On his return to the school for the
          > second
          > >term, he was found to be far ahead of his peers. His progress was
          > >attributed to listening to Radio 4 solidly for 3 months.
          > >
          > >
          > >David R Hill
          > >EPER (Edinburgh Project on Extensive Reading)
          > >IALS (Institute for Applied Language Studies)
          > >University of Edinburgh, 21 Hill Place, Edinburgh EH8 9DP
          > >Tel: 0131 650 8211/6200 Fax: 0131 667 5927
          > >Website: www.ials.ed.ac.uk/eper.html
          > >----- Original Message -----
          > >From: "Julian Bamford"
          > >To:
          > >Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 4:07 AM
          > >Subject: [ExtensiveReading] Extensive listening
          > >
          > >
          > > > >From Julian: I'm posting this message on behalf of Willy Renandya
          > who
          > >isn't
          > > > on this list, and is co-editor of one of the best books on
          > extensive
          > > > reading (Jacobs, G.M., Davis, C., and Renendya, W.A. (Eds.)
          > Successful
          > > > strategies for extensive reading. Singapore: SEAMEO Regional
          > Language
          > > > Centre). I'll pass on your responses.
          > > > Willy says, "I'm trying to get an MA student do a study on
          > > > extensive listening. If extensive reading is good, then extensive
          > > > listening should be good too, shouldn't it? Do you know of any
          > studies on
          > > > extensive listening? If you have come across any, I'd be most
          > grateful if
          > > > you could let me know."
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > >
          > >
          >
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
          > Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. Click Here
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • Rob Waring
          ... But will be good for recognizing the sight-sound correspondence. ... The problems with using the tapescripts of GRs of course is (as Clive would know and
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 4, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Re: [ExtensiveReading] Extensive listening
            Clive said:


                  - students read the text while listening - in which case it is
            questionable whether it would qualify as listening practice in the sense
            of improving students' ability to hear fluent speakers of the TL.

            But will be good for recognizing the sight-sound correspondence.


                  - a text that is very liberally illustrated, so that students can
            "read" the pictures - or a movie. But then the dialogue in most movies
            is way too difficult for many students.
                  - a delivery of the text in an unnaturally slow (and therefore, almost
            certainly phonologially distorted) way. Again, this is hardlt useful
            training for improving listening perception. In my opinion it's almost
            as bad as using katakana pronunciation.

            The problems with using the tapescripts of GRs of course is (as Clive would know and accept) that the listening is rather dead. There are very few times that we listen passively except to the radio news and TV (but that has images to help), so I like Clive's idea of having books of images with a 'chime' or something to turn the page.  My daughter's Disney tapes have this, but may be a bit childish.

            I wish someone would publish tapescripts of real conversations rather than only of written text.  As we all know written text is quite different from spoken text and written text may not best help the learner to listen. For example we may need recordings of (say a real CNN or a mock-up) interview with a dialogue.  This could be simplified, but simplification of spoken text may not be very easy.

            I wrote a paper on EL a few months ago but can't find it now....... :(
            -- 
            
            Best regards,

            Rob Waring
            Notre Dame Seishin University,
            2-16-9 Ifuku-cho,
            Okayama,
            Japan. 700-8516
            +81 86 252 3102 (direct)
            +81 86 252 5734 (fax)
          • rube39_@eml.cc
            I have been using radio plays, followed by self-access paired Q&A sessions, for a number of years now (stuff like the orignal O Neill the Man Who Escaped),
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 4, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              I have been using radio plays, followed by self-access paired Q&A
              sessions,
              for a number of years now (stuff like the orignal O'Neill 'the Man Who
              Escaped),
              with documented success (publications in college journals and JALT
              presentations).
              Since, with preview, story, and review sections, the sts. end up
              listening to each segment
              11 times, I don't know if this qualifies as 'extensive listening'
              however.

              On a different note, I have noticed that for a fee one can download the
              complete audio of a huge number of novels. Am thinking about using
              these with the novel itself in a composition class next year (on the
              theory that you learn to write best by reading, not writing). If I
              don't get decent results on this years massive writing class (paired
              with a no writing at all class in pre te4st postest study) I will
              definately give it a go next year.

              Rube
              On Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 02:36 PM, Rob Waring wrote:

              > Clive said:
              >
              >
              >       - students read the text while listening - in which case it is
              > questionable whether it would qualify as listening practice in the
              > sense
              >
              > of improving students' ability to hear fluent speakers of the TL.
              >
              >
              > But will be good for recognizing the sight-sound correspondence.
              >
              >
              >       - a text that is very liberally illustrated, so that students can
              > "read" the pictures - or a movie. But then the dialogue in most movies
              > is way too difficult for many students.
              >       - a delivery of the text in an unnaturally slow (and therefore,
              > almost
              > certainly phonologially distorted) way. Again, this is hardlt useful
              > training for improving listening perception. In my opinion it's almost
              >
              > as bad as using katakana pronunciation.
              >
              >
              > The problems with using the tapescripts of GRs of course is (as Clive
              > would know and accept) that the listening is rather dead. There are
              > very few times that we listen passively except to the radio news and
              > TV (but that has images to help), so I like Clive's idea of having
              > books of images with a 'chime' or something to turn the page.  My
              > daughter's Disney tapes have this, but may be a bit childish.
              >
              > I wish someone would publish tapescripts of real conversations rather
              > than only of written text.  As we all know written text is quite
              > different from spoken text and written text may not best help the
              > learner to listen. For example we may need recordings of (say a real
              > CNN or a mock-up) interview with a dialogue.  This could be
              > simplified, but simplification of spoken text may not be very easy.
              >
              > I wrote a paper on EL a few months ago but can't find it now....... :(
              >
              > --
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > Rob Waring
              > Notre Dame Seishin University,
              > 2-16-9 Ifuku-cho,
              > Okayama,
              > Japan. 700-8516
              > +81 86 252 3102 (direct)
              > +81 86 252 5734 (fax)
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
            • Rob Waring
              Hi An article by Anthony Bruton just appeared in the Langauge Teacher criticizing the ER approach. Would anyone care to comment? I have scanned it and pasted
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 5, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Re: [ExtensiveReading] Bruton article
                Hi

                An article by Anthony Bruton just appeared in the Langauge Teacher criticizing the ER approach.  Would anyone care to comment?

                I have scanned it and pasted it below (probably illegally)

                -------------

                Extensive Reading is Reading Extensively, Surely?

                Anthony Bruton, University of Seville, Spain

                The Language Teacher November 2002 p. 23-25.


                To their credit, Day and Bamford (1998, the most extensive of their publications on the topic) resuscitated the issue of extensive reading. In current FL methodology, very often practices that preceded the so-called communicative approach are revived, but with claims for novelty and innovation rather than revival. This means that the ideas can be marketed as being new, and with an even wider scope of application than before. I think that is partly the case here. In the discussion that follows, reference will be made to the traditional use of terms in FL/SL reading which did actually need to be clarified in their time, before considering Day and Bamford's so-called "extensive (adapted) reading approach" (ERA) and concluding that extensive reading is really just that.

                Traditional Practices and Terms
                To understand the current meaning of extensive reading, it is useful to refer to the traditional contrast between extensive and intensive reading. Originally, the two terms were applied to pedagogical categories, as in "intensive reading lessons" and "extensive reading lessons/activities," and the two were perfectly compatible for many practitioners. However, with the advent of the communicative approach along with the selective adoption of authentic texts and the development of reading strategies, the two terms necessarily came to be sharply distinguished.
                   Pedagogically, intensive reading lessons were normally characterized as having comprehension and language-focussed tasks completed communally by the whole class. Both reading strategies and language input were central concerns. In the same respect, extensive reading was either communal, with exploitation activities from a reader, or individualized, with the students each selecting their own texts.
                 In fact, short texts with comprehension and language tasks can be photocopied and laminated for self-access, so that they are completed individually. And more extended texts can be accompanied by comprehension and language tasks, though it might be contradictory if the purpose is developing reading fluency.

                Clarifications
                Intensive reading is really a way of reading. Williams (1984) contrasts it with other "styles" of reading, including "rapid" reading and "extensive" reading (p. 12). For Grellet (1981) the purpose of intensive reading is "to extract specific information" (p. 4), while Brumfit (1984) suggests that the pedagogic purpose of intensive reading is "accuracy" (p. 53).
                   Although extensive reading is a style for Williams (1984), aimed at "fluency" for Brumfit (1984), and for "pleasure" according to Grellet (1981), the term should really apply to "the amount of L2 material which learners are required to read" (Hafiz & Tudor, 1989, p. 5) and not be confused with the "so-called 'cognitive reading skills' of skimming and scanning" (Robb & Susser, 1989, p. 241). In fact, extensive can apply to a number of "amounts":

                1. The amount of new text that is read.
                2. The breadth of reading as in "wide reading" (Stoller & Grabe, 1993, p. 31) as opposed to "narrow reading" around a particular topic or particular genres of text (Schmitt & Carter, 2000, p. 5).
                3. The amount of text consumed, but not necessarily new text, as in "repeated reading" (Samuels, 1997, p. 377).
                4. The amount of time spent reading.

                These distinctions are significant because extensive reading, for example, is often associated with the reading of narrative texts, either in simplified or unabridged form. However, extensive reading can be applied to breadth of reading, that is, to the reading of different types of text: newspapers, magazines, comics, novels and so on. On the other hand, any text can be read intensively, or non-intensively, depending on the purpose the reader has in reading the text, or part of it.

                Two Current Proposals
                The reading of (supposedly more difficult) genuine/ authentic texts for different purposes, sometimes requiring the development of compensatory reading strategies due to their difficulty, was justified in terms of learning to communicate by communicating in realistic contexts/co-texts (Little, Devitt, & Singleton, 1989). In fact, both compensatory and non-compensatory strategies were fairly central to this option, and students read a variety of texts, from adverts to the words of songs, from personal letters to recipes. This communicative reading option is currently contrasted with the (extensive) reading of large amounts of "easier" texts independently, championed by Day and Bamford (1998). It might be called the reading for pleasure option, since this is the goal.

                   Day and Bamford's "approach" is actually based on reading (easier) narrative texts, which are either abridged or specially written. By giving it the label of an approach, it means that extensive reading is all-embracing and central, rather than additional or peripheral. As for the narrative texts, there is no novelty at lower levels of reading since attempts have always been made to offer texts at an appropriate level for the students-nobody was suggesting that FL readers should tackle authentic novels prematurely. However, and this is the confusion, other genres of text are more difficult to adapt/write convincingly, so the issue really becomes a matter of careful selection of appropriate texts and tasks, in order that there is engagement and authentication by the readers (H.Widdowson, personal conversation at IATEFL 2001). For this reason, Nuttall (1996, p. 38), admittedly talking about intensive reading in the pedagogical sense, argues that the teaching of FL reading can be skills-based or text-based, or presumably a balance of the two.

                Limitations of an Extensive Reading "Approach"
                The fundamental flaw with extensive reading as an "approach" is that the evidence is not very encouraging that low to middle level FL readers actually can improve even their sight vocabulary through reading simplified texts without support (see Hafiz & Tudor, 1989, 1990; Tudor & Hafiz, 1989; and less relevantly Elley & Mangubhai, 1983). In fact, reading a large number of texts at a level that is accessible and enjoyable seems to encourage reading fluency at the level the student is at, but does not necessarily lead to "booting up" of language in Day and Bamford's (1998) terms. In a very illuminating article, Nation and (1999) suggest that the vocabulary development benefits come at the higher levels of graded reading, and that, in the meantime, lower level readers might need to be given direct vocabulary instruction and to use the dictionary, when entering a new level especially, apart from needing to read approximately one book a week.
                   Apart from choosing and reading accessible texts, the supposed novelties of ERA are that-in the FLreading for pleasure should be an end, not just a means; the focus should be on reading only; it should not be directed; the diet should be stories written for FL readers; the texts should be at i minus 1; and, the emphasis is on quantity and fluency rather than quality and accuracy. Not novelties at all really, but certainly questions for debate.
                   Apart from offering few novelties, a closer reading of ERA unfortunately reveals the following contradictions: including EFL and ESL reading under the same umbrella; emphasizing free/pleasurable reading, but recognizing the possibility of all types of assessment; emphasizing personal responses, but accommodating the use of prescribed questions; emphasizing choice, but recognizing the possibility of communal class readers, reading aloud, etc.; deemphasizing language focus, but including vocabulary diaries and dictionaries; emphasizing
                reading at an i minus 1 linguistic level, but including i plus 1 as well, and not explaining how reading actually develops; emphasizing more reading, without explaining when the genuine texts and varied genres are introduced. In fact, one has to conclude that ERA is neither a coherent reading approach, nor does it clarify teacher intervention, nor does it either explain or gauge language development.

                Alternative Dimensions
                For these reasons, whether or not the reading is communal so that everyone is reading the same text, and whether or not the reading is supported with tasks, there might be rather more significant variables than the term "extensive" being applied to a conglomeration of rather arbitrary characteristics. The communality feature is particularly significant in terms of potential teacher support and intervention. If there is teacher support and intervention, students can be helped to develop different reading strategies while coping with more difficult texts (at i plus 1) than if they were on their own. The question of tasks reflects the fact that students can read texts which have written instructions and tasks to be completed independently, or texts which do not. That is not to say that other variables such as text type, length, or level and type of reading are unimportant, but the former two factors are considered more significant in differentiating potential pedagogical practice. In Figure 1, the four possible boxes are all compatible, although they imply different practices.

                        +focussed tasks -focussed tasks
                + communal texts        
                - communal texts                

                Figure 1. Dimensions for supervised FL reading

                Conclusion
                My feeling is that in the EFL/ESL field there should be fewer claims of innovation, with a greater recognition of previous practice and its benefits, however limited. Likewise, the scope of application of revived or novel practice should be constrained to where it has been shown to be effective. This applies to ERA as well. Apart from that, clarity in the definition and use of terms is paramount, and, in this case, extensive reading should be recognized as just that, reading extensively.

                References
                Brumfit, C. (1984). Communicative methodology in language teaching. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
                Day, R.R., & Bamford, J. (1998). Extensive reading in the second language classroom. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
                Elley, W.B., & Mangubhai, F. (1983). The impact of reading on second language learning. Reading Research Quarterly, 19(1), 53-67.
                Grellet, F. (1981). Developing reading skills. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
                Hafiz, F.M., & Tudor, I. (1989). Extensive reading and the development of language skills. ELT Journal, 43(1), 4-13. Hafiz, F.M., & Tudor, I. (1990). Graded readers as an input medium in L2 learning. System, 18(1), 31-42.
                Little, D., Devitt, S., & Singleton, D. (1989). Learning foreign languages from authentic texts: Theory and practice. Dublin: Authentik.
                Nation; P., & Wang Ming-tzu, K. (1999). Graded readers and vocabulary. Reading in a Foreign Language, 12(2), 355379.
                Nuttall, C. (1996). Teaching reading skills in a foreign language (2nd ed.). London: Heinemann.
                Robb, T.N., & Susser, B. (1989). Extensive reading vs. skill building in an EFL context. Reading in a Foreign Language, 5(2), 239-251.
                Samuels, S.J. (1997). The method of repeated readings. The Reading Teacher, 50(5), 376-381.
                Schmitt, N., & Carter, R. (2000). The lexical advantages of narrow reading for second language learners. TESOL Journal, 9(1), 4-9.
                Stoller, F.L., & Grabe, W. (1993). Implications for L2 vocabulary acquisition and instruction from Ll vocabulary research. In Huckin, T., Haynes, M., & Coady, J. (Eds.), Second language reading and vocabulary learning. Norwood, NJ: Ablex.
                Tudor, L, & Hafiz, F. (1989). Extensive reading as a means of input to L2 learning. Journal of Research in Reading, 12(2), 164-178.
                Williams, E. (1984). Reading in the language classroom. London: Modern English.


                -- 
                
                Best regards,

                Rob Waring
                Notre Dame Seishin University,
                2-16-9 Ifuku-cho,
                Okayama,
                Japan. 700-8516
                +81 86 252 3102 (direct)
                +81 86 252 5734 (fax)
              • George Jacobs
                Thanks for sending this out, Rob. I don t think most ER advocates are saying that all students should do is to read extensively and that no IR should be done.
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 6, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Re: [ExtensiveReading] Bruton article

                  Thanks for sending this out, Rob.

                   

                  I don’t think most ER advocates are saying that all students should do is to read extensively and that no IR should be done. Most advice on ER talks about ER and IR going together. This type of “it’s no good all the time” criticism is fairly common. The first talk I gave on integrating environmental education in language teaching, the first comment after the talk was, “But we can’t talk about the environment all the time.”

                   

                  Also, the author seems to dismiss the research on ER quite quickly.

                   

                  As to contradictions in how ER is done, maybe different ER practitioners do things differently with different students and at different times (which makes it difficult for someone to write an article neatly categorizing an instructional strategy), not to mention the fact that not all ERers (sorry) think alike. As the saying going, when 2 people are thinking alike, one of them isn’t thinking. Looks like we’re thinking.

                   

                  Cheers

                   

                  George Jacobs

                  10 Anson Road, #46-06

                  Singapore 079903

                  Tel: 6222-4685; 9389-8360

                  Email: gmjacobs@...

                  WWW: www.georgejacobs.net

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rob Waring [mailto:waring@...]
                  Sent
                  : Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:50 AM
                  To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Bruton article

                   

                  Hi

                   

                  An article by Anthony Bruton just appeared in the Langauge Teacher criticizing the ER approach.  Would anyone care to comment?

                   

                  I have scanned it and pasted it below (probably illegally)

                   

                  -------------

                   

                  Extensive Reading is Reading Extensively, Surely?

                  Anthony Bruton, University of Seville, Spain

                  The Language Teacher November 2002 p. 23-25.


                  To their credit, Day and Bamford (1998, the most extensive of their publications on the topic) resuscitated the issue of extensive reading. In current FL methodology, very often practices that preceded the so-called communicative approach are revived, but with claims for novelty and innovation rather than revival. This means that the ideas can be marketed as being new, and with an even wider scope of application than before. I think that is partly the case here. In the discussion that follows, reference will be made to the traditional use of terms in FL/SL reading which did actually need to be clarified in their time, before considering Day and Bamford's so-called "extensive (adapted) reading approach" (ERA) and concluding that extensive reading is really just that.

                  Traditional Practices and Terms
                  To understand the current meaning of extensive reading, it is useful to refer to the traditional contrast between extensive and intensive reading. Originally, the two terms were applied to pedagogical categories, as in "intensive reading lessons" and "extensive reading lessons/activities," and the two were perfectly compatible for many practitioners. However, with the advent of the communicative approach along with the selective adoption of authentic texts and the development of reading strategies, the two terms necessarily came to be sharply distinguished.
                     Pedagogically, intensive reading lessons were normally characterized as having comprehension and language-focussed tasks completed communally by the whole class. Both reading strategies and language input were central concerns. In the same respect, extensive reading was either communal, with exploitation activities from a reader, or individualized, with the students each selecting their own texts.
                   In fact, short texts with comprehension and language tasks can be photocopied and laminated for self-access, so that they are completed individually. And more extended texts can be accompanied by comprehension and language tasks, though it might be contradictory if the purpose is developing reading fluency.

                  Clarifications
                  Intensive reading is really a way of reading. Williams (1984) contrasts it with other "styles" of reading, including "rapid" reading and "extensive" reading (p. 12). For Grellet (1981) the purpose of intensive reading is "to extract specific information" (p. 4), while Brumfit (1984) suggests that the pedagogic purpose of intensive reading is "accuracy" (p. 53).
                     Although extensive reading is a style for Williams (1984), aimed at "fluency" for Brumfit (1984), and for "pleasure" according to Grellet (1981), the term should really apply to "the amount of L2 material which learners are required to read" (Hafiz & Tudor, 1989, p. 5) and not be confused with the "so-called 'cognitive reading skills' of skimming and scanning" (Robb & Susser, 1989, p. 241). In fact, extensive can apply to a number of "amounts":

                  1. The amount of new text that is read.
                  2. The breadth of reading as in "wide reading" (Stoller & Grabe, 1993, p. 31) as opposed to "narrow reading" around a particular topic or particular genres of text (Schmitt & Carter, 2000, p. 5).
                  3. The amount of text consumed, but not necessarily new text, as in "repeated reading" (Samuels, 1997, p. 377).
                  4. The amount of time spent reading.

                  These distinctions are significant because extensive reading, for example, is often associated with the reading of narrative texts, either in simplified or unabridged form. However, extensive reading can be applied to breadth of reading, that is, to the reading of different types of text: newspapers, magazines, comics, novels and so on. On the other hand, any text can be read intensively, or non-intensively, depending on the purpose the reader has in reading the text, or part of it.


                  Two Current Proposals
                  The reading of (supposedly more difficult) genuine/ authentic texts for different purposes, sometimes requiring the development of compensatory reading strategies due to their difficulty, was justified in terms of learning to communicate by communicating in realistic contexts/co-texts (Little, Devitt, & Singleton, 1989). In fact, both compensatory and non-compensatory strategies were fairly central to this option, and students read a variety of texts, from adverts to the words of songs, from personal letters to recipes. This communicative reading option is currently contrasted with the (extensive) reading of large amounts of "easier" texts independently, championed by Day and Bamford (1998). It might be called the reading for pleasure option, since this is the goal.

                     Day and Bamford's "approach" is actually based on reading (easier) narrative texts, which are either abridged or specially written. By giving it the label of an approach, it means that extensive reading is all-embracing and central, rather than additional or peripheral. As for the narrative texts, there is no novelty at lower levels of reading since attempts have always been made to offer texts at an appropriate level for the students-nobody was suggesting that FL readers should tackle authentic novels prematurely. However, and this is the confusion, other genres of text are more difficult to adapt/write convincingly, so the issue really becomes a matter of careful selection of appropriate texts and tasks, in order that there is engagement and authentication by the readers (H.Widdowson, personal conversation at IATEFL 2001). For this reason, Nuttall (1996, p. 38), admittedly talking about intensive reading in the pedagogical sense, argues that the teaching of FL reading can be skills-based or text-based, or presumably a balance of the two.

                  Limitations of an Extensive Reading "Approach"
                  The fundamental flaw with extensive reading as an "approach" is that the evidence is not very encouraging that low to middle level FL readers actually can improve even their sight vocabulary through reading simplified texts without support (see Hafiz & Tudor, 1989, 1990; Tudor & Hafiz, 1989; and less relevantly Elley & Mangubhai, 1983). In fact, reading a large number of texts at a level that is accessible and enjoyable seems to encourage reading fluency at the level the student is at, but does not necessarily lead to "booting up" of language in Day and Bamford's (1998) terms. In a very illuminating article, Nation and (1999) suggest that the vocabulary development benefits come at the higher levels of graded reading, and that, in the meantime, lower level readers might need to be given direct vocabulary instruction and to use the dictionary, when entering a new level especially, apart from needing to read approximately one book a week.
                     Apart from choosing and reading accessible texts, the supposed novelties of ERA are that-in the FLreading for pleasure should be an end, not just a means; the focus should be on reading only; it should not be directed; the diet should be stories written for FL readers; the texts should be at i minus 1; and, the emphasis is on quantity and fluency rather than quality and accuracy. Not novelties at all really, but certainly questions for debate.
                     Apart from offering few novelties, a closer reading of ERA unfortunately reveals the following contradictions: including EFL and ESL reading under the same umbrella; emphasizing free/pleasurable reading, but recognizing the possibility of all types of assessment; emphasizing personal responses, but accommodating the use of prescribed questions; emphasizing choice, but recognizing the possibility of communal class readers, reading aloud, etc.; deemphasizing language focus, but including vocabulary diaries and dictionaries; emphasizing
                  reading at an i minus 1 linguistic level, but including i plus 1 as well, and not explaining how reading actually develops; emphasizing more reading, without explaining when the genuine texts and varied genres are introduced. In fact, one has to conclude that ERA is neither a coherent reading approach, nor does it clarify teacher intervention, nor does it either explain or gauge language development.


                  Alternative Dimensions
                  For these reasons, whether or not the reading is communal so that everyone is reading the same text, and whether or not the reading is supported with tasks, there might be rather more significant variables than the term "extensive" being applied to a conglomeration of rather arbitrary characteristics. The communality feature is particularly significant in terms of potential teacher support and intervention. If there is teacher support and intervention, students can be helped to develop different reading strategies while coping with more difficult texts (at i plus 1) than if they were on their own. The question of tasks reflects the fact that students can read texts which have written instructions and tasks to be completed independently, or texts which do not. That is not to say that other variables such as text type, length, or level and type of reading are unimportant, but the former two factors are considered more significant in differentiating potential pedagogical practice. In Figure 1, the four possible boxes are all compatible, although they imply different practices.

                          +focussed tasks -focussed tasks
                  + communal texts        
                  - communal texts                

                  Figure 1. Dimensions for supervised FL reading

                  Conclusion
                  My feeling is that in the EFL/ESL field there should be fewer claims of innovation, with a greater recognition of previous practice and its benefits, however limited. Likewise, the scope of application of revived or novel practice should be constrained to where it has been shown to be effective. This applies to ERA as well. Apart from that, clarity in the definition and use of terms is paramount, and, in this case, extensive reading should be recognized as just that, reading extensively.

                  References
                  Brumfit, C. (1984). Communicative methodology in language teaching. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
                  Day, R.R., & Bamford, J. (1998). Extensive reading in the second language classroom. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
                  Elley, W.B., & Mangubhai, F. (1983). The impact of reading on second language learning. Reading Research Quarterly, 19(1), 53-67.
                  Grellet, F. (1981). Developing reading skills. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
                  Hafiz, F.M., & Tudor, I. (1989). Extensive reading and the development of language skills. ELT Journal, 43(1), 4-13. Hafiz, F.M., & Tudor, I. (1990). Graded readers as an input medium in L2 learning. System, 18(1), 31-42.
                  Little, D., Devitt, S., & Singleton, D. (1989). Learning foreign languages from authentic texts: Theory and practice. Dublin: Authentik.
                  Nation; P., & Wang Ming-tzu, K. (1999). Graded readers and vocabulary. Reading in a Foreign Language, 12(2), 355379.
                  Nuttall, C. (1996). Teaching reading skills in a foreign language (2nd ed.). London: Heinemann.
                  Robb, T.N., & Susser, B. (1989). Extensive reading vs. skill building in an EFL context. Reading in a Foreign Language, 5(2), 239-251.
                  Samuels, S.J. (1997). The method of repeated readings. The Reading Teacher, 50(5), 376-381.
                  Schmitt, N., & Carter, R. (2000). The lexical advantages of narrow reading for second language learners. TESOL Journal, 9(1), 4-9.
                  Stoller, F.L., & Grabe, W. (1993). Implications for L2 vocabulary acquisition and instruction from Ll vocabulary research. In Huckin, T., Haynes, M., & Coady, J. (Eds.), Second language reading and vocabulary learning. Norwood, NJ: Ablex.
                  Tudor, L, & Hafiz, F. (1989). Extensive reading as a means of input to L2 learning. Journal of Research in Reading, 12(2), 164-178.
                  Williams, E. (1984). Reading in the language classroom. London: Modern English.

                   

                   -- 

                  Best regards,

                  Rob Waring
                  Notre Dame Seishin University,
                  2-16-9 Ifuku-cho,
                  Okayama,
                  Japan. 700-8516

                  +81 86 252 3102 (direct)

                  +81 86 252 5734 (fax)


                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                • Julian Bamford
                  First, thanks Rob, Beniko, Clive and Rube for contributing to the extensive listening thread--I passed your messages on to Willy Renandya. And thanks, Rory,
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 9, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    First, thanks Rob, Beniko, Clive and Rube for contributing to the extensive
                    listening thread--I passed your messages on to Willy Renandya. And thanks,
                    Rory, for answering Steve's plea re. planning an ER-based high school
                    English communication class. (If anyone else answered, please let me know.)
                    I guess I should write about my own experiences with extensive
                    listening. At the university where I work in Japan, I have a library of
                    1500 English-language videotapes, mostly movies and some TV shows, none
                    with Japanese subtitles, and most with English captions (like English
                    subtitles) printed on the bottom of the screen. (You can imagine how
                    keenly aware I am that videotapes are rapidly going the way of the
                    dinosaur!)
                    Quite a few students borrow the tapes for home viewing. I guess
                    they get listening practice and reading practice both. I've never studied
                    this; I just assume there has to be a positive rather than a negative
                    impact on the student's English, cultural understanding and motivation to
                    study English. I know that I myself enjoy watching certain Japanese
                    children's TV shows (e.g., Chibi Maruko-chan, and the new
                    'Atashinchi'--Fri, TV Asahi, 7:30p.m. after Doraemon) because I hear words
                    I've recently learned. This listening practice is like giving my language
                    a workout--getting a deeper understanding of it.
                    My assistant feels movies are too long for lower-level students,
                    but great practice for more advanced students. For lower-level students,
                    TV shows are better, as students can keep concentrating (the most popular
                    are 22-minute episodes of sitcoms like "Full House" and "Friends.")
                    For reading, we encourage lower-level students to read language
                    learner literature. But for listening, we encourage them to watch
                    (ungraded) TV shows. Students can enjoy them (whereas they couldn't enjoy
                    an ungraded book) because they're short; there are visuals to help
                    comprehension; and the videotape keeps playing, carrying students past the
                    parts they don't understand (whereas it's harder to keep reading a book
                    when you have no idea what it means).
                    When I watch Japanese TV shows, I may not understand 80 percent of
                    what they say, but I do understand the other 20 percent of the language and
                    I have a perhaps 70 percent overall understanding thanks to the visuals and
                    using my common sense--enough to be satisfied with the viewing experience.
                    I suppose it's the same for lower-level students watching English-language
                    TV shows.
                    Julian
                  • Clive Lovelock
                    Julian This is interesting. The lower-level S s can enjoy ungraded TV shows and you can understand 20% of the language in Japanese TV shows. But how much
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 11, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Julian

                      This is interesting. The lower-level S's "can enjoy ungraded TV shows"
                      and you can understand 20% of the language in Japanese TV shows. But how
                      much language can you / your S's learn from this kind of activity,
                      besides improved listening fluency for already known language, and
                      improved tolerance of ambiguity (or incomprehenasion)?

                      When I watch Japanese TV, like you, I don't understand a lot of the
                      language, but can compensate quite a lot from the visual context and
                      general knowledge. However, when it comes to picking up language, I tend
                      to forget any word I hear that I don't already know (i.e. understand) as
                      the programme carries me past the parts I don't understand (as you put
                      it). The speed of the language flow forces me to focus on comprehension
                      of the content, so I have little time to pay attention to the language
                      per se. It's only with words that I seem to have heard a thousand times
                      and get increasingly irritated that I haven't found out what they mean,
                      that I'm eventually able to retain the sound of the word, even without
                      its meaning, and look it up in a dictionary later. Even then, I may
                      forget the meaning, if I can't remember one of the contexts in which I
                      heard it. Mind you, I'm not exactly what Joan Rubin calls "the good
                      language learner" where Japanese is concerned!

                      In my view, Rory's comment about the complementary relationship between
                      ER and IR applies much more strongly to EL and IL, because of the
                      intrinsically ephemeral nature of spoken language - unlike print on a
                      page - and because, in a country like Japan, most students are taught
                      for their first 6 years of English through the written word, not
                      listening. Many high school graduate here are listening beginners in
                      the same extreme way as beginning readers, who are still not very
                      familiar with the alphabet. The phonemes, stress patterns and
                      pronunciation of unstressed syllables are so foreign to them that they
                      don't have chance of understanding discourse even though it's
                      considerably below their reading level.

                      I want to write more about this, but don't have time today.

                      Julian Bamford wrote:
                      >
                      For reading, we encourage lower-level students to read language
                      > learner literature. But for listening, we encourage them to watch
                      > (ungraded) TV shows. Students can enjoy them (whereas they couldn't enjoy
                      > an ungraded book) because they're short; there are visuals to help
                      > comprehension; and the videotape keeps playing, carrying students past the
                      > parts they don't understand (whereas it's harder to keep reading a book
                      > when you have no idea what it means).
                      > When I watch Japanese TV shows, I may not understand 80 percent of
                      > what they say, but I do understand the other 20 percent of the language and
                      > I have a perhaps 70 percent overall understanding thanks to the visuals and
                      > using my common sense--enough to be satisfied with the viewing experience.
                      > I suppose it's the same for lower-level students watching English-language
                      > TV shows.
                      > Julian
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Julian Bamford
                      Clive (11/12/02) wonders: how much language can you / your S s learn from this kind of activity? [ This activity being watching ungraded TV shows which some
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 15, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Clive (11/12/02) wonders: how much language can you / your S's learn from
                        this kind of activity? ['This activity' being watching ungraded TV shows
                        which some of my lower level students enjoy; I also enjoy watching some
                        Japanese TV shows which I can understand 20% of.]

                        I agree, you can't learn new language. I think you're right that the
                        benefits for lower level students of watching ungraded TV shows--that is,
                        doing ungraded extensive listening--are, as you say "improved listening
                        fluency for already known language, and improved tolerance of ambiguity (or
                        incomprehension)?" To this, I'd add that you sometimes hear words you
                        already know well, but you hear them used in situations you wouldn't
                        expect. This broadens your knowledge of the word.

                        When watching TV shows that you hardly understand, you also meet words
                        that (as you say, Clive) "I seem to have heard a thousand times and get
                        increasingly irritated that I haven't found out what they mean, . . .I'm
                        eventually able to retain the sound of the word, even without its meaning,
                        and look it up in a dictionary later [or, as Rory suggests, look it up
                        right away with an electronic dictionary]. Even then, I may forget the
                        meaning, if I can't remember one of the contexts in which I heard it."
                        Perhaps our ability to remember this type of word is in ratio to the
                        frustration we've accumulated in hearing it thousands of times and not
                        understanding. To this group of words, I'd add the words I've learned and
                        forgotten and then meet again in the TV show, and I'm frustrated at not
                        remembering the meaning of this oh-so-familiar word. When I hear such a
                        word, I desperately want to look it up and learn it again.

                        Then Ian wrote, challenging the value of lower-level students listening to
                        ungraded (difficult) TV shows: "Isn't this away from the idea of extensive
                        reading? We wouldn't give a beginning student a level 6 Oxford reader. But
                        aren't we doing this by plopping ourselves down in front of the tv? . . .
                        . I still want to be convinced that watching tv is a worthwhile use of
                        learning time. In my own case, I feel that it was a waste of time until I
                        got to an intermediate level. At that stage I was able to recognise the
                        everyday usuage of words and patterns that I had been studying more formally."

                        I guess it's only a worthwhile use of time if you think it is. Actually,
                        the time I use and the students use is their free time. I know that I'll
                        get more value from the ungraded extensive listening when my Japanese level
                        is higher, but even now, some of the listening is comprehensible, and of
                        value for the reasons Clive mentions above.

                        Bottom line: I agree that, for ungraded extensive listening isn't useful
                        for learning new items until you are at an intermediate or even advanced
                        level. It's value (and pleasure) lie elsewhere.
                        Julian
                      • rube39_@eml.cc
                        Aren t we forgetting something (at least as language learners)? I don t watch Hanshin on TV to learn Japanese, I watch because I am a fan and follow the team.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 16, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Aren't we forgetting something (at least as language learners)?
                          I don't watch Hanshin on TV to learn Japanese, I watch because I am a
                          fan and follow the team.
                          When I watch foreign language news programs on TV, again it is because
                          I am interested.
                          In the real world, don' t we use language do to things, to learn
                          things, to have fun, and not just to learn the language? Why do we want
                          to learn the language anyway, if not to use it?
                          I believe we acquire the language as a bi-product of both understanding
                          it and using it in natural ways and for natural purposes.
                          So when you see me at JALT or in Osaka drinking beers with Yoshie-han,
                          rest assured I am not
                          trying to work on my Japanese, but rather enjoying my life in a
                          monolingual situation.

                          Rube

                          On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:17 PM, Julian Bamford wrote:

                          > Clive (11/12/02) wonders: how much language can you / your S's learn
                          > from
                          > this kind of activity? ['This activity' being watching ungraded TV
                          > shows
                          > which some of my lower level students enjoy; I also enjoy watching some
                          > Japanese TV shows which I can understand 20% of.]
                          >
                          > I agree, you can't learn new language. I think you're right that the
                          > benefits for lower level students of watching ungraded TV shows--that
                          > is,
                          > doing ungraded extensive listening--are, as you say "improved listening
                          > fluency for already known language, and improved tolerance of
                          > ambiguity (or
                          > incomprehension)?" To this, I'd add that you sometimes hear words you
                          > already know well, but you hear them used in situations you wouldn't
                          > expect. This broadens your knowledge of the word.
                          >
                          > When watching TV shows that you hardly understand, you also meet words
                          > that (as you say, Clive) "I seem to have heard a thousand times and get
                          > increasingly irritated that I haven't found out what they mean, . .
                          > .I'm
                          > eventually able to retain the sound of the word, even without its
                          > meaning,
                          > and look it up in a dictionary later [or, as Rory suggests, look it up
                          > right away with an electronic dictionary]. Even then, I may forget the
                          > meaning, if I can't remember one of the contexts in which I heard it."
                          > Perhaps our ability to remember this type of word is in ratio to the
                          > frustration we've accumulated in hearing it thousands of times and not
                          > understanding. To this group of words, I'd add the words I've learned
                          > and
                          > forgotten and then meet again in the TV show, and I'm frustrated at not
                          > remembering the meaning of this oh-so-familiar word. When I hear such
                          > a
                          > word, I desperately want to look it up and learn it again.
                          >
                          > Then Ian wrote, challenging the value of lower-level students
                          > listening to
                          > ungraded (difficult) TV shows: "Isn't this away from the idea of
                          > extensive
                          > reading? We wouldn't give a beginning student a level 6 Oxford reader.
                          > But
                          > aren't we doing this by plopping ourselves down in front of the tv? .
                          > . .
                          > . I still want to be convinced that watching tv is a worthwhile use of
                          > learning time. In my own case, I feel that it was a waste of time
                          > until I
                          > got to an intermediate level. At that stage I was able to recognise the
                          > everyday usuage of words and patterns that I had been studying more
                          > formally."
                          >
                          > I guess it's only a worthwhile use of time if you think it is.
                          > Actually,
                          > the time I use and the students use is their free time. I know that
                          > I'll
                          > get more value from the ungraded extensive listening when my Japanese
                          > level
                          > is higher, but even now, some of the listening is comprehensible, and
                          > of
                          > value for the reasons Clive mentions above.
                          >
                          > Bottom line: I agree that, for ungraded extensive listening isn't
                          > useful
                          > for learning new items until you are at an intermediate or even
                          > advanced
                          > level. It's value (and pleasure) lie elsewhere.
                          > Julian
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          > ---------------------~-->
                          > Share the magic of Harry Potter with Yahoo! Messenger
                          > http://us.click.yahoo.com/4Q_cgB/JmBFAA/46VHAA/W_NqlB/TM
                          > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > ~->
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Beniko Mason
                          Rube, I understand you perfectly well. From Beniko Mason Beniko Mason International Buddhist University 3-2-1 Gakuenmae, Habikino-shi, Osaka 583-8501 (Phone)
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 16, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Rube, I understand you perfectly well. From Beniko Mason




                            Beniko Mason
                            International Buddhist University
                            3-2-1 Gakuenmae, Habikino-shi, Osaka 583-8501
                            (Phone) 0729-56-3181
                            >From: rube39_@...
                            >Reply-To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                            >To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                            >Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Extensive listening
                            >Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:53:02 +0900
                            >
                            >Aren't we forgetting something (at least as language learners)?
                            >I don't watch Hanshin on TV to learn Japanese, I watch because I am a
                            >fan and follow the team.
                            >When I watch foreign language news programs on TV, again it is because
                            >I am interested.
                            >In the real world, don' t we use language do to things, to learn
                            >things, to have fun, and not just to learn the language? Why do we want
                            >to learn the language anyway, if not to use it?
                            >I believe we acquire the language as a bi-product of both understanding
                            >it and using it in natural ways and for natural purposes.
                            >So when you see me at JALT or in Osaka drinking beers with Yoshie-han,
                            >rest assured I am not
                            >trying to work on my Japanese, but rather enjoying my life in a
                            >monolingual situation.
                            >
                            >Rube
                            >
                            >On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:17 PM, Julian Bamford wrote:
                            >
                            > > Clive (11/12/02) wonders: how much language can you / your S's learn
                            > > from
                            > > this kind of activity? ['This activity' being watching ungraded TV
                            > > shows
                            > > which some of my lower level students enjoy; I also enjoy watching some
                            > > Japanese TV shows which I can understand 20% of.]
                            > >
                            > > I agree, you can't learn new language. I think you're right that the
                            > > benefits for lower level students of watching ungraded TV shows--that
                            > > is,
                            > > doing ungraded extensive listening--are, as you say "improved listening
                            > > fluency for already known language, and improved tolerance of
                            > > ambiguity (or
                            > > incomprehension)?" To this, I'd add that you sometimes hear words you
                            > > already know well, but you hear them used in situations you wouldn't
                            > > expect. This broadens your knowledge of the word.
                            > >
                            > > When watching TV shows that you hardly understand, you also meet words
                            > > that (as you say, Clive) "I seem to have heard a thousand times and get
                            > > increasingly irritated that I haven't found out what they mean, . .
                            > > .I'm
                            > > eventually able to retain the sound of the word, even without its
                            > > meaning,
                            > > and look it up in a dictionary later [or, as Rory suggests, look it up
                            > > right away with an electronic dictionary]. Even then, I may forget the
                            > > meaning, if I can't remember one of the contexts in which I heard it."
                            > > Perhaps our ability to remember this type of word is in ratio to the
                            > > frustration we've accumulated in hearing it thousands of times and not
                            > > understanding. To this group of words, I'd add the words I've learned
                            > > and
                            > > forgotten and then meet again in the TV show, and I'm frustrated at not
                            > > remembering the meaning of this oh-so-familiar word. When I hear such
                            > > a
                            > > word, I desperately want to look it up and learn it again.
                            > >
                            > > Then Ian wrote, challenging the value of lower-level students
                            > > listening to
                            > > ungraded (difficult) TV shows: "Isn't this away from the idea of
                            > > extensive
                            > > reading? We wouldn't give a beginning student a level 6 Oxford reader.
                            > > But
                            > > aren't we doing this by plopping ourselves down in front of the tv? .
                            > > . .
                            > > . I still want to be convinced that watching tv is a worthwhile use of
                            > > learning time. In my own case, I feel that it was a waste of time
                            > > until I
                            > > got to an intermediate level. At that stage I was able to recognise the
                            > > everyday usuage of words and patterns that I had been studying more
                            > > formally."
                            > >
                            > > I guess it's only a worthwhile use of time if you think it is.
                            > > Actually,
                            > > the time I use and the students use is their free time. I know that
                            > > I'll
                            > > get more value from the ungraded extensive listening when my Japanese
                            > > level
                            > > is higher, but even now, some of the listening is comprehensible, and
                            > > of
                            > > value for the reasons Clive mentions above.
                            > >
                            > > Bottom line: I agree that, for ungraded extensive listening isn't
                            > > useful
                            > > for learning new items until you are at an intermediate or even
                            > > advanced
                            > > level. It's value (and pleasure) lie elsewhere.
                            > > Julian
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > ---------------------~-->
                            > > Share the magic of Harry Potter with Yahoo! Messenger
                            > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/4Q_cgB/JmBFAA/46VHAA/W_NqlB/TM
                            > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                            > > ~->
                            > >
                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >


                            Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
                          • Clive Lovelock
                            Dear Rube Down to earth and to the point as ever. Thanks for reminding us. In this case, I protest that I hadn t forgotten the power of personal interest to
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 18, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Rube

                              Down to earth and to the point as ever. Thanks for reminding us. In this
                              case, I protest that I hadn't forgotten the power of personal interest
                              to overcome language barriers, but was simply stressing a different
                              angle on IL.

                              You see how defensive you've made me? You touched my "irritation
                              button". Perhaps it's the same one that sets off frustration when I find
                              I've forgotten a Japanese word I thought I'd learnt, but in this case,
                              the trigger is being accused of forgetting something when in fact I
                              haven't. I reckon that discussions of "positive motivation" sometimes
                              verge on "political correctness" - i.e. knee-jerk slavery to
                              intellectual fashion. "We shouldn't forget" (to paraphrase you, Rube)
                              there's also quite a lot to be said for negative motivation
                              (frustration, stress, anxiety to do better, competition - yes, to me
                              that's a negative - etc), as Julian points out - depending on the
                              learner and learning situation. I hasten to add that I haven't yet found
                              any evidence that applying electric shocks in the LL, or the use of
                              blackmail, result in effective learning - though I'm reluctant to rule
                              out the idea, psychologically speaking! That's a moral issue rather than
                              a practical one.

                              Anyway, Rube, this weekend, when I find you with a bagfull of "tinnies",
                              please let me know which language you'd like to communicate in.

                              Clive

                              rube39_@... wrote:
                              >
                              > Aren't we forgetting something (at least as language learners)?
                              > I don't watch Hanshin on TV to learn Japanese, I watch because I am a
                              > fan and follow the team.
                              > When I watch foreign language news programs on TV, again it is because
                              > I am interested.
                              > In the real world, don' t we use language do to things, to learn
                              > things, to have fun, and not just to learn the language? Why do we want
                              > to learn the language anyway, if not to use it?
                              > I believe we acquire the language as a bi-product of both understanding
                              > it and using it in natural ways and for natural purposes.
                              > So when you see me at JALT or in Osaka drinking beers with Yoshie-han,
                              > rest assured I am not
                              > trying to work on my Japanese, but rather enjoying my life in a
                              > monolingual situation.
                              >
                              > Rube
                              >
                              > On Saturday, November 16, 2002, at 03:17 PM, Julian Bamford wrote:
                              >
                              > > Clive (11/12/02) wonders: how much language can you / your S's learn
                              > > from
                              > > this kind of activity? ['This activity' being watching ungraded TV
                              > > shows
                              > > which some of my lower level students enjoy; I also enjoy watching some
                              > > Japanese TV shows which I can understand 20% of.]
                              > >
                              > > I agree, you can't learn new language. I think you're right that the
                              > > benefits for lower level students of watching ungraded TV shows--that
                              > > is,
                              > > doing ungraded extensive listening--are, as you say "improved listening
                              > > fluency for already known language, and improved tolerance of
                              > > ambiguity (or
                              > > incomprehension)?" To this, I'd add that you sometimes hear words you
                              > > already know well, but you hear them used in situations you wouldn't
                              > > expect. This broadens your knowledge of the word.
                              > >
                              > > When watching TV shows that you hardly understand, you also meet words
                              > > that (as you say, Clive) "I seem to have heard a thousand times and get
                              > > increasingly irritated that I haven't found out what they mean, . .
                              > > .I'm
                              > > eventually able to retain the sound of the word, even without its
                              > > meaning,
                              > > and look it up in a dictionary later [or, as Rory suggests, look it up
                              > > right away with an electronic dictionary]. Even then, I may forget the
                              > > meaning, if I can't remember one of the contexts in which I heard it."
                              > > Perhaps our ability to remember this type of word is in ratio to the
                              > > frustration we've accumulated in hearing it thousands of times and not
                              > > understanding. To this group of words, I'd add the words I've learned
                              > > and
                              > > forgotten and then meet again in the TV show, and I'm frustrated at not
                              > > remembering the meaning of this oh-so-familiar word. When I hear such
                              > > a
                              > > word, I desperately want to look it up and learn it again.
                              > >
                              > > Then Ian wrote, challenging the value of lower-level students
                              > > listening to
                              > > ungraded (difficult) TV shows: "Isn't this away from the idea of
                              > > extensive
                              > > reading? We wouldn't give a beginning student a level 6 Oxford reader.
                              > > But
                              > > aren't we doing this by plopping ourselves down in front of the tv? .
                              > > . .
                              > > . I still want to be convinced that watching tv is a worthwhile use of
                              > > learning time. In my own case, I feel that it was a waste of time
                              > > until I
                              > > got to an intermediate level. At that stage I was able to recognise the
                              > > everyday usuage of words and patterns that I had been studying more
                              > > formally."
                              > >
                              > > I guess it's only a worthwhile use of time if you think it is.
                              > > Actually,
                              > > the time I use and the students use is their free time. I know that
                              > > I'll
                              > > get more value from the ungraded extensive listening when my Japanese
                              > > level
                              > > is higher, but even now, some of the listening is comprehensible, and
                              > > of
                              > > value for the reasons Clive mentions above.
                              > >
                              > > Bottom line: I agree that, for ungraded extensive listening isn't
                              > > useful
                              > > for learning new items until you are at an intermediate or even
                              > > advanced
                              > > level. It's value (and pleasure) lie elsewhere.
                              > > Julian
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              > > ---------------------~-->
                              > > Share the magic of Harry Potter with Yahoo! Messenger
                              > > http://us.click.yahoo.com/4Q_cgB/JmBFAA/46VHAA/W_NqlB/TM
                              > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > > ~->
                              > >
                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.