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RE: The role of ER in second language

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  • This Sender
    I believe that a flaw in Laufner s 2003 report is that it s going to be boring to learn lists of words by writing sentences or filling in blanks for even 15
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 22, 2005
      I believe that a flaw in Laufner's 2003 report is that
      it's going to be boring to learn lists of words by
      writing sentences or filling in blanks for even 15
      minutes every day for a year. Laufner lauds her
      vocabulary learning methods that enabled scores of
      50%. But 50% on a test is an F. My mom would have been
      shocked if I brought marks like that home from school.
      In my opinion, these kinds of results don't
      demonstrate vocabulary acquisition methods that work
      but rather tests that fail.

      Reading really is better than learning the definitions
      of words for intermediate students. Laufner suggests
      that for students in extensive reading programs,
      "reading a book of 20,000–21,000 [words] took at least
      six hours." These students were reading less than one
      word a second. The average American reads about 250
      words per minute. The students mentioned in Laufner's
      critique were crawling at 55 words per minute. I
      wonder how much fun it was to read those long books at
      such a slow pace. In the same amount of time they
      could have read twice as many words from books more
      appropriate to their grade level.

      Some people are able to read extremely fast. I'd
      suggest Laufner check out this program:
      http://www.powerstates.com/speed-reading.htm

      A quote from their program:
      “After 8 weeks I was able to demonstrate a reading
      speed of over 30,000 words per minute and
      comprehension level of 95% (from my initial speed of
      120 and comprehension level of 30%). My younger sister
      was then in 8th grade. Her scores were similar -
      25,000 words per minute and 95% comprehension. We were
      amazed, but not surprised.” – Beth Johnson, OR

      Reading can open doors to all kinds of new worlds.
      Maybe reading is just what language learners want, not
      a teacher helping them to memorize vocabulary lists.

      Just my two cents,
      Tommy

      >
      > Hi Everyone,
      >
      > Google Scholar informs me that more than 1000
      > sources (books,
      > articles, thesis, reviews, etc.) have in one way or
      > another taken on
      > incidental vocab acquisition and ER. This number is
      > only a dim
      > signal of how big this issue has become in the last
      > two decades or
      > so. The findings/discussions frequently point to a
      > positive
      > relationship between learning vocab incidentally and
      > ER. In
      > contrast, one notorious and recent exception is
      > Laufer's (2003)
      > paper which challenges the view that the most likely
      > source of
      > untutored vocab acquisition is reading. Some of us
      > may want to
      > comment. Any takers?
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Juan
      >
      >
      http://www.utpjournals.com/product/cmlr/594/594_laufer.html
      >
      > Vocabulary Acquisition in a Second Language: Do
      > Learners Really
      > Acquire Most Vocabulary by Reading? Some Empirical
      > Evidence(1)
      >
      > Batia Laufer
      >
      > Abstract: In the first part of the paper, I
      > challenge some basic
      > assumptions underlying the claim that reading is the
      > major source of
      > vocabulary acquisition in L2: the 'noticing'
      > assumption,
      > the 'guessing ability' assumption, the
      > 'guessing-retention link'
      > assumption, and the 'cumulative gain' assumption. In
      > the second
      > part, I report on three experiments in which
      > vocabulary gains from
      > reading were compared with gains from word-focused
      > tasks: completing
      > given sentences, writing original sentences, and
      > incorporating words
      > in a composition. Results showed that more words
      > were acquired
      > through tasks than through reading.

      **ioot@... Taipei, Taiwan *>*>**

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    • Rob Waring
      ... Using only one conscious learning method will be boring no matter what it is. But list learning is not necessarily boring either. I have my students use a
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 22, 2005
        At 02:53 23/12/2005, This Sender wrote:
        I believe that a flaw in Laufner's 2003 report is that
        it's going to be boring to learn lists of words by
        writing sentences or filling in blanks for even 15
        minutes every day for a year.

        Using only one conscious learning method will be boring no matter what it is. But list learning is not necessarily boring either. I have my students use a memorization method that is very successful.
        http://www1.harenet.ne.jp/~waring/vocab/principles/systematic_learning.htm

        I question my students every year about this method and of the 300-400 students I have asked to do this NONE of them hated it. ALL of them saw the benefits but many could not spare the time (that would be the same for reading). By far the most encouraging response was that despite it not being 'enjoyable' that the did feel they were learning. They learn for only 10 minutes a day and at the beginning of every class. But they use their cards in many different ways not just for memorization - games, test each other, etc.  The average student gets about 50% on Nation's level test at the start of the year and gets about 85% by the end. That's a gain of about 700 words (not only from my class -they have an intensive reading class and grammar class too.

        See this for one example of a student who attempted 640 words in one month and successfully learn 400. She retained over 300 of them seven months later with NO additional input. The report is here
        http://www1.harenet.ne.jp/~waring/vocab/principles/Wordcard_learning.doc (It's an underdgrad thesis)

        She reports her feelings of excitement to see how quickly she could learn.

        And yes they get loads of ER to reinforce the vocab as well. And NO word learning is NOT everything either. It's a strategy.

        R



        Cheers

        Rob
        waring_robert@...

      • juanarturo Pino
        Hi, On the same line, I feel learning from word lists is neither a bore for the EFL student nor the teacher. To give an example, here s a teaching strategy.
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 23, 2005
          Hi,
          On the same line, I feel learning from word lists is neither a bore for the EFL student nor the teacher. To give an example, here's  a teaching strategy. The list is the SYLLABUS, it tells the students to reduce the dimension of the task to a size they can manage and different students are able to manage different loads. Then, groups are formed (I call them them task force) and collaborative learning is used  to help groups manage the own functioning. Group leaders are given a vocab task (say a cloze) and ask to solve it, analyze it, comment of their usefulness and so on. Then they are trained on preparing their own tasks by teaching them the cloze algorythm. Then leaders go back to their groups meet when they can and want with their pals and send their products and student-generated exercises to a YG for other groups to pick them up and used them and pitch in theirs at the same time. You only have to look at the work students do, their discussions, and strategies they use to commit words to memory, to guess, ignore them,add morphology, use them in compound noun structure, and sentences and so on, to know that this is rich learning experience.  Students  have rated this activity as higly relevant, fun, and lovable (i.e. they love to learn words this way), second only ER. Ss who want to join a permanent vocab learning program are switched to a second YG where they autonously continue to work even when they attend clasess with other teachers and leave the program. Why would they do this if they thought it was boring?  And for my part, action research dictates what I do and what to ask Ss to do. I won't teach a reading course without this or any other scheme based on word lists and/or ER.
          Regards,
          Juan
               
          Rob Waring <waring_robert@...> wrote:
          At 02:53 23/12/2005, This Sender wrote:
          I believe that a flaw in Laufner's 2003 report is that
          it's going to be boring to learn lists of words by
          writing sentences or filling in blanks for even 15
          minutes every day for a year.

          Using only one conscious learning method will be boring no matter what it is. But list learning is not necessarily boring either. I have my students use a memorization method that is very successful.
          http://www1.harenet.ne.jp/~waring/vocab/principles/systematic_learning.htm

          I question my students every year about this method and of the 300-400 students I have asked to do this NONE of them hated it. ALL of them saw the benefits but many could not spare the time (that would be the same for reading). By far the most encouraging response was that despite it not being 'enjoyable' that the did feel they were learning. They learn for only 10 minutes a day and at the beginning of every class. But they use their cards in many different ways not just for memorization - games, test each other, etc.  The average student gets about 50% on Nation's level test at the start of the year and gets about 85% by the end. That's a gain of about 700 words (not only from my class -they have an intensive reading class and grammar class too.

          See this for one example of a student who attempted 640 words in one month and successfully learn 400. She retained over 300 of them seven months later with NO additional input. The report is here
          http://www1.harenet.ne.jp/~waring/vocab/principles/Wordcard_learning.doc (It's an underdgrad thesis)

          She reports her feelings of excitement to see how quickly she could learn.

          And yes they get loads of ER to reinforce the vocab as well. And NO word learning is NOT everything either. It's a strategy.

          R



          Cheers

          Rob
          waring_robert@...


          Yahoo! Shopping
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        • Brett Reynolds
          Tomy suggests that speed reading (claims of 25,000 wpm with 95% comprehension) is where we (or Laufer, at least) should be turning our attention. Luckily, a
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 26, 2005
            Tomy suggests that speed reading (claims of 25,000 wpm with 95%
            comprehension) is where we (or Laufer, at least) should be turning
            our attention. Luckily, a good amount of attention has been focussed
            on speed reading claims and they have been found wanting. In The
            Psychology of Reading (Rayner and Pollatsek 1989) there is an
            extensive discussion about the claims. The conclusion is that it's
            likely possible to reach speeds of 600wpm but beyond that one is
            simply skimming. 95% comprehension may be possible, but only if the
            reader begins with 85% knowledge of the text.

            Best,
            Brett




            -----------------------
            Brett Reynolds
            English Language Centre
            Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
            Toronto, Ontario, Canada
            brett.reynolds@...
          • Scott Miles
            Speed reading of 25,000 wpm is more than a little exaggerated. A lot of speed reading programs make these kinds of claims, but any speed reading courses and
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 26, 2005
              Speed reading of 25,000 wpm is more than a little exaggerated. A lot of speed reading programs make these kinds of claims, but any speed reading courses and products which claim to give you higher results than 900 wpm are most likely fraudulent to some degree. They are teaching advanced skimming techniques, not the kind of reading that most people think is true reading.
               
              In the 2003 speed reading championship competition in the UK, the winner had an adjusted wpm of 1,285, while the second and third place competitors had 632 and 610 respectively. The adjusted wpm is done by means of comprehension: the lower the comprehension, the more they are penalized). These are the fastest readers of the English language in the world, so obviously anything beyond 1000 wpm is unrealistic for most people.
               
              Most trained speed readers peak at about 600 wpm.
               
              For our students, getting them up to 150-200 wpm is a realistic (and very rewarding) goal. Busbee (2001) had a useful study on improving the reading speed of Korean students.
               
               I'm trying to work reading speed  in to my extensive reading course but I'm finding it a little difficult. Anyone know of any good software products that help students increase reading speed?
               
              Some sources on the subject:
               
              Busbee, E. 2001. Computer training to improve word recognition and reading speed. English Teaching, 56(2), 143-165.
              Nuttall, C. 1996. Teaching Reading Skills in a foreign language. Macmillan/Heinemann.
              Ostrov, R. 2002. Power Reading. The Education Press.
               
               


              Brett Reynolds <brett@...> wrote:
              Tomy suggests that speed reading (claims of 25,000 wpm with 95% 
              comprehension) is where we (or Laufer, at least) should be turning 
              our attention. Luckily, a good amount of attention has been focussed 
              on speed reading claims and they have been found wanting. In The 
              Psychology of Reading (Rayner and Pollatsek 1989) there is an 
              extensive discussion about the claims. The conclusion is that it's 
              likely possible to reach speeds of 600wpm but beyond that one is 
              simply skimming. 95% comprehension may be possible, but only if the 
              reader begins with 85% knowledge of the text.

              Best,
              Brett




              -----------------------
              Brett Reynolds
              English Language Centre
              Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
              Toronto, Ontario, Canada
              brett.reynolds@...






              Scott Miles
              Associate Director
              General English Education Program
              Sogang University


              Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

            • Rob Waring
              Hi all, An interesting aside to this is my Aunt. She was born deaf. I once saw her read an entire 250-300 word novel in abut 30 minutes. She was not ring to
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 27, 2005
                Hi all,

                An interesting aside to this is my Aunt. She was born deaf. I once saw her read an entire 250-300 word novel in abut 30 minutes. She was not ring to prove anything to anyone, she was just reading for her pleasure. She reads about 2 books a month she says. She learnt to read before she learnt to speak.

                Rob


                At 12:02 27/12/2005, Scott Miles wrote:
                Speed reading of 25,000 wpm is more than a little exaggerated. A lot of speed reading programs make these kinds of claims, but any speed reading courses and products which claim to give you higher results than 900 wpm are most likely fraudulent to some degree. They are teaching advanced skimming techniques, not the kind of reading that most people think is true reading.
                 
                In the 2003 speed reading championship competition in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 />UK, the winner had an adjusted wpm of 1,285, while the second and third place competitors had 632 and 610 respectively. The adjusted wpm is done by means of comprehension: the lower the comprehension, the more they are penalized). These are the fastest readers of the English language in the world, so obviously anything beyond 1000 wpm is unrealistic for most people.
                 
                Most trained speed readers peak at about 600 wpm.
                 
                For our students, getting them up to 150-200 wpm is a realistic (and very rewarding) goal. Busbee (2001) had a useful study on improving the reading speed of Korean students.
                 
                 I'm trying to work reading speed  in to my extensive reading course but I'm finding it a little difficult. Anyone know of any good software products that help students increase reading speed?
                 
                Some sources on the subject:
                 
                Busbee, E. 2001. Computer training to improve word recognition and reading speed. English Teaching, 56(2), 143-165.
                Nuttall, C. 1996. Teaching Reading Skills in a foreign language. Macmillan/Heinemann.
                Ostrov, R. 2002. Power Reading. The Education Press.
                 
                 


                Brett Reynolds <brett@...> wrote:
                Tomy suggests that speed reading (claims of 25,000 wpm with 95% 
                comprehension) is where we (or Laufer, at least) should be turning 
                our attention. Luckily, a good amount of attention has been focussed 
                on speed reading claims and they have been found wanting. In The 
                Psychology of Reading (Rayner and Pollatsek 1989) there is an 
                extensive discussion about the claims. The conclusion is that it's 
                likely possible to reach speeds of 600wpm but beyond that one is 
                simply skimming. 95% comprehension may be possible, but only if the 
                reader begins with 85% knowledge of the text.

                Best,
                Brett




                -----------------------
                Brett Reynolds
                English Language Centre
                Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
                Toronto, Ontario, Canada
                brett.reynolds@...






                Scott Miles
                Associate Director
                General English Education Program
                Sogang University


                Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

                SPONSORED LINKS
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                Graduate school education online High school education Middle school education


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                Cheers

                Rob
                waring_robert@...

              • Rob Waring
                Err 250-300 PAGE novel... Sorry R ... Cheers Rob waring_robert@yahoo.com
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 27, 2005
                  Err 250-300 PAGE novel...

                  Sorry

                  R

                  At 17:44 27/12/2005, Rob Waring wrote:
                  Hi all,

                  An interesting aside to this is my Aunt. She was born deaf. I once saw her read an entire 250-300 word novel in abut 30 minutes. She was not ring to prove anything to anyone, she was just reading for her pleasure. She reads about 2 books a month she says. She learnt to read before she learnt to speak.

                  Rob


                  At 12:02 27/12/2005, Scott Miles wrote:
                  Speed reading of 25,000 wpm is more than a little exaggerated. A lot of speed reading programs make these kinds of claims, but any speed reading courses and products which claim to give you higher results than 900 wpm are most likely fraudulent to some degree. They are teaching advanced skimming techniques, not the kind of reading that most people think is true reading.
                   
                  In the 2003 speed reading championship competition in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 />UK, the winner had an adjusted wpm of 1,285, while the second and third place competitors had 632 and 610 respectively. The adjusted wpm is done by means of comprehension: the lower the comprehension, the more they are penalized). These are the fastest readers of the English language in the world, so obviously anything beyond 1000 wpm is unrealistic for most people.
                   
                  Most trained speed readers peak at about 600 wpm.
                   
                  For our students, getting them up to 150-200 wpm is a realistic (and very rewarding) goal. Busbee (2001) had a useful study on improving the reading speed of Korean students.
                   
                   I'm trying to work reading speed  in to my extensive reading course but I'm finding it a little difficult. Anyone know of any good software products that help students increase reading speed?
                   
                  Some sources on the subject:
                   
                  Busbee, E. 2001. Computer training to improve word recognition and reading speed. English Teaching, 56(2), 143-165.
                  Nuttall, C. 1996. Teaching Reading Skills in a foreign language. Macmillan/Heinemann.
                  Ostrov, R. 2002. Power Reading. The Education Press.
                   
                   


                  Brett Reynolds <brett@...> wrote:
                  Tomy suggests that speed reading (claims of 25,000 wpm with 95% 
                  comprehension) is where we (or Laufer, at least) should be turning 
                  our attention. Luckily, a good amount of attention has been focussed 
                  on speed reading claims and they have been found wanting. In The 
                  Psychology of Reading (Rayner and Pollatsek 1989) there is an 
                  extensive discussion about the claims. The conclusion is that it's 
                  likely possible to reach speeds of 600wpm but beyond that one is 
                  simply skimming. 95% comprehension may be possible, but only if the 
                  reader begins with 85% knowledge of the text.
                  Best,
                  Brett



                  -----------------------
                  Brett Reynolds
                  English Language Centre
                  Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
                  Toronto, Ontario, Canada
                  brett.reynolds@...






                  Scott Miles
                  Associate Director
                  General English Education Program
                  Sogang University


                  Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

                  SPONSORED LINKS
                  Secondary school education Graduate school education Home school education
                  Graduate school education online High school education Middle school education


                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                  Cheers

                  Rob
                  waring_robert@...

                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                  Cheers

                  Rob
                  waring_robert@...

                • Brett Reynolds
                  ... The problem with these types of claims is the adjustment factor. Let s say someone flips to the end of a 4000-word text at the 1 minute mark. Then they
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 27, 2005
                    On Dec 26, 2005, at 10:02 PM, Scott Miles wrote:
                    > In the 2003 speed reading championship competition in the UK, the
                    > winner had an adjusted wpm of 1,285, while the second and third
                    > place competitors had 632 and 610 respectively. The adjusted wpm is
                    > done by means of comprehension: the lower the comprehension, the
                    > more they are penalized). These are the fastest readers of the
                    > English language in the world, so obviously anything beyond 1000
                    > wpm is unrealistic for most people.

                    The problem with these types of claims is the adjustment factor.

                    Let's say someone flips to the end of a 4000-word text at the 1
                    minute mark. Then they take a 3-distractor multiple choice
                    comprehension test. Even understanding nothing all, they are likely
                    to score 25% for an adjusted speed of 1000 wpm. Furthermore, few of
                    these tests are well designed or piloted, which means that questions
                    are often answerable using background knowledge. It could be the case
                    that, having read nothing at all, one could score 60% for an adjusted
                    speed of 2400 wpm. I don't know anything about the specific
                    competition that Scott mentions, but I would guess that it suffers
                    from these problems to a greater or lesser degree.

                    Best,
                    Brett


                    -----------------------
                    Brett Reynolds
                    English Language Centre
                    Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
                    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
                    brett.reynolds@...
                  • John Paul Loucky
                    But there are tachtometers that can photograph and measure eye movements, including a reader s fixations & regressions as well as speed. Perhaps they used one
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 27, 2005
                      But there are tachtometers that can photograph and measure eye movements,
                      including a reader's fixations & regressions as well as speed. Perhaps they
                      used one of these...?

                      JP Loucky
                      www.CALL4ALL.US


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brett Reynolds
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:29 AM
                      To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] RE: The role of ER in second language

                      On Dec 26, 2005, at 10:02 PM, Scott Miles wrote:
                      > In the 2003 speed reading championship competition in the UK, the
                      > winner had an adjusted wpm of 1,285, while the second and third
                      > place competitors had 632 and 610 respectively. The adjusted wpm is
                      > done by means of comprehension: the lower the comprehension, the
                      > more they are penalized). These are the fastest readers of the
                      > English language in the world, so obviously anything beyond 1000
                      > wpm is unrealistic for most people.

                      The problem with these types of claims is the adjustment factor.

                      Let's say someone flips to the end of a 4000-word text at the 1
                      minute mark. Then they take a 3-distractor multiple choice
                      comprehension test. Even understanding nothing all, they are likely
                      to score 25% for an adjusted speed of 1000 wpm. Furthermore, few of
                      these tests are well designed or piloted, which means that questions
                      are often answerable using background knowledge. It could be the case
                      that, having read nothing at all, one could score 60% for an adjusted
                      speed of 2400 wpm. I don't know anything about the specific
                      competition that Scott mentions, but I would guess that it suffers
                      from these problems to a greater or lesser degree.

                      Best,
                      Brett


                      -----------------------
                      Brett Reynolds
                      English Language Centre
                      Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
                      Toronto, Ontario, Canada
                      brett.reynolds@...







                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Akio FURUKAWA
                      Dear everyone, I am FURUKAWA in SSS ER group. Oita Godo Shinbun, the most effective paper in Oita prefecture, reported about a university student who
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 27, 2006
                        Dear everyone,

                        I am FURUKAWA in SSS ER group.

                        Oita Godo Shinbun, the most effective paper in Oita prefecture,
                        reported about a university student who accomplish one million words
                        extensive reading.

                        Mr Nishihira, a sophmore of Kango Kagaku University began extensive
                        reading when he entered the university. He started reading from
                        Oxford Reading Tree and after reading 107 books, he read THE SILENCE
                        OF LAMBS and accomplished one million words reading.
                        He said, "One million is not enough, I'd like to read one more one million
                        within a year." See details in the following URL:

                        http://www.oita-press.co.jp/

                        英語多読 やったぞ!100万語 看護科学大、西平さん達成感


                        100万語多読達成第1号の認定書を持って笑顔をみせる西平さん(左から2人
                        目)。西平さんをたたえるジェラルド助教授(左)、宮内講師(右から2人目)、岡
                        崎助手(右)
                         県立看護科学大学(大分市)が、学生の語学能力向上を目的に取り組んでいる「英
                        語多読」で、2年生の西平俊哉さん(20)が107冊の英語書籍を読み、同大学で
                        初めて目標の総語数100万語を達成した。同学年の平均は25万語で、指導してい
                        る宮内信治講師(言語学)は「快挙」と話している。


                         同大学は二〇〇四年四月から授業に英語多読を導入。辞書を使わず、簡単な本や興
                        味のある本を多く読もう—という取り組みで、西平さんは挿絵入りの簡単な本からス
                        タートした。もともと読書が好きで、教材のほかに、自ら英語小説(ペーパーバッ
                        ク)を買って楽しむようになった。

                         最初に買った本はミステリー小説「羊たちの沈黙」。以前、日本語版を読んで展開
                        を覚えていたため、「分からない部分はイメージを膨らませた。時間はかかったが、
                        読み終えて達成感があった」。宮内講師は「内容が分かっている本を読むのは、英語
                        習得の上で効果的」と話す。

                         その後も大学から本を持ち帰ったり、自主的に購入しては多読を進めた。西平さん
                        は「当初に比べると、速く読めるようになった」と言う。「熱心に続けてきた成果」
                        と言語学のシャーリー・ジェラルド助教授や岡崎寿子助手。

                         多読は英文の処理能力を高め、結果的に英会話能力も向上する—とされている。

                         同大学と交流している韓国・ソウルの大学生が、あまりに流ちょうに英語を話すこ
                        とに刺激を受けているという西平さん。「スムーズに会話をするには百万語多読では
                        足りない。年内にさらに百万語を目指します」と意欲をみせた。



                        【英語多読】 教材の難易度を上げて学生の学習意欲を減退させるのではなく、逆に
                        難易度を下げてやる気を向上させ、英語習得レベルの向上を目指す学習方式。辞書を
                        使わず、分からない部分は飛ばし、内容がつまらなければ途中でやめる—というやり
                        方。人気小説「ハリーポッター」の1巻—6巻の総語数は約90万語。
                      • Rob Waring
                        Hi all, If anyone is interested in joining the JALT 2006 ER / EL symposium in Kitakyushu, please let me know. You don t have to present, you can just help out.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 6, 2006
                          Hi all,

                          If anyone is interested in joining the JALT 2006 ER / EL symposium in
                          Kitakyushu, please let me know. You don't have to present, you can just
                          help out.

                          Thanks

                          Rob
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