Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Web-ER again

Expand Messages
  • Juan Pino Silva
    Hi. It s me again. For the 7th year in a row, 48 students at the Universidad Simón Bolívar will be reading texts online and send in their main ideas to a
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 15, 2005
      Hi. It's me again.

      For the 7th year in a row, 48 students at the Universidad Simón
      Bolívar will be reading texts online and send in their main ideas to
      a yahoogroup for one trimester. The proyect is to include two new
      ingredients this time around. One enhancement is that the group will
      send in a draft of their reading profile and they are to update it
      every 2 weeks until they complete 5 drafts. Here they report
      strategies, knowledge gained as they widen their prior knowledge and
      get ready to enter the discourse of their community to become
      engineers and scientists- a work in progress, that is.
      Concurrently, content teachers are more actively collaborating with
      the project providing the type of tasks they are likely to ask
      students to do online. They too report to the yahogroup.
      I am still surprised though at the paucity of research and
      commentaries in both print and this list on web-ER. It would seem
      that there are only a few people in the world taking students to the
      web to serve the double purpose of learning to read and
      simultaneously helping them to improve, rather than delay the
      acquisition of their electronic literacy skills with which they are
      to cope in content and/or academic courses. What's at issue here? Is
      it resistance to change? Lack of pedagogic or theoretical models of
      reading online?

      Sincerely,

      Juan Pino Silva, Ph.D.
      Languages Department
      Universidad Simón Bolívar
      Caracas-Venezuela
    • Rob Waring
      Hi Juan and all, I concur with Juan Pino that we do need to teach students to read online materials. He asks why isn t much of this being done. Let me offer
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 15, 2005
        Re: [ExtensiveReading] Web-ER again
        Hi Juan and all,

        I concur with Juan Pino that we do need to teach students to read online materials. He asks why isn't much of this being done. Let me offer reasons I don't do it within ER.

        a) to the vast majority of students the web is just noise. Until they reach a very high level of competence they will not be able to read it well unless they live in a dictionary. Even my most advanced students have great troubles - as do their teachers! Web-texts can of course be read intensively, but that is not ER and Juan Pino is asking about ER.

        b) Most material on the web is for natives and there is relatively little that is for L2 (there's lots of young L1 stuff but that may not be what adults want to read). And the material that is there, is not graded in any useful or parallel way to the grading schemes in graded readers. All sites that do grade materials grade their materials differently. This makes finding suitable materials a chore. Not only that but there is little sense of linguistic scaffolding or progression as one reads through a site.

        c) Most teachers don't know where to look for suitable materials to teach reading online.

        d) most teachers do not know what skills or strategies need to be learnt (or how to teach them). And the skills are strategies are quite different. First, people read about 25% slower on a screen than on paper - L1 or L2. Second there is far more skimming and scanning. There is far more to distract the eye (graphics, videos etc) and people tend not to read whole texts from beginning to end. People need to move their eye off the page to scroll, etc. In fact we don't have much of a clear idea of HOW people read webpages let alone have a suitable teaching methodology to teach the strategies yet. PhD anyone?

        e) most computer classes (if a school is lucky to have access to computers) would be restricted to computer class, science or other studies and access for language classes may be limited.

        I'm sure there are more reasons why people are not flocking to the web to teach reading.

        R


        At 8:27 PM +0000 1/15/05, Juan Pino Silva wrote:
        Hi. It's me again.

        For the 7th year in a row, 48 students at the Universidad Simón
        Bolívar will be reading texts online and send in their main ideas to
        a yahoogroup for one trimester. The proyect is to include two new
        ingredients this time around. One enhancement is that the group will
        send in a draft of their reading profile and they are to update it
        every 2 weeks until they complete 5 drafts. Here they report
        strategies, knowledge gained as they widen their prior knowledge and
        get ready to enter the discourse of their community to become
        engineers and  scientists- a work in progress, that is. 
        Concurrently, content teachers are more actively collaborating with
        the project providing the type of tasks they are likely to ask
        students to do online. They too report to the yahogroup.
        I am still surprised though at the paucity of research and
        commentaries in both  print and this list on web-ER. It would seem
        that there are only a few people in the world taking students to the
        web to serve the double purpose of learning to read and
        simultaneously helping them to improve, rather than delay the
        acquisition of their electronic literacy skills with which they are 
        to cope in content and/or academic courses. What's at issue here? Is
        it resistance to change? Lack of pedagogic or theoretical models of
        reading online? 

        Sincerely,

        Juan Pino Silva, Ph.D.
        Languages Department
        Universidad Simón Bolívar
        Caracas-Venezuela




        Yahoo! Groups Links


        -- 
        
        Cheers

        Rob

        waring@...
      • Rob Waring
        ... following up on my own post. I just thought of this. I mentioned in the post that ... ... Two major problems for L2 readers (and teachers) are a) finding
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 15, 2005
          >Hi


          following up on my own post. I just thought of this. I mentioned in
          the post that ...

          >b) Most material on the web is for natives and there is relatively
          >little that is for L2 (there's lots of young L1 stuff but that may
          >not be what adults want to read). And the material that is there, is
          >not graded in any useful or parallel way to the grading schemes in
          >graded readers. All sites that do grade materials grade their
          >materials differently. This makes finding suitable materials a
          >chore. Not only that but there is little sense of linguistic
          >scaffolding or progression as one reads through a site.

          Two major problems for L2 readers (and teachers) are a) finding
          suitable reading materials online and b) knowing what 'level' of
          reading difficulty the page is. Wouldn't it be great if many of the
          L2 sites graded their texts according to a uniform scheme, then L2
          readers can look at a page and see what 'level' it is before reading
          it.

          So here is an idea. What do you all think about a Reading level
          grading scheme for wepages that are likely to be read by L2 learners?
          We all are familiar with reading schemes and scales for L1 that rate
          texts for difficulty, but we don't have one for L2 English. For
          example as the learner opens a webpage, there could be a little logo
          at the top that has that page's 'level'. This could be indicated by
          some logo of sorts . Of course many website writers would say but but
          but...... I don't have time, how do I grade the texts etc.

          One way to grade the pages uniformly is to create a website (say
          under the ER Foundation???) that has a series of scripts that can
          analyze the text electronically and give a 'reading level' of sorts.
          The results could be a 'reading level analysis' webpage which website
          authors could paste their texts into and then the webpage spits out a
          reading for the page. The author then has to just copy that level
          into the page they are writing (maybe by using the appropriate logo
          that is uniform for that level rating e.g. a small graphic that says
          "This page was rated as Level X by xyz webpage / organization) .

          I'm not suggesting this is a short term project but one that could be
          done with a few dedicated individuals. There are already several text
          analysis pages out there already. These primarily analyse the lexis
          and sentence length / word length and these could be co-opted /
          adapted. It is a start!

          Any thoughts?

          --
          Cheers

          Rob

          waring@...
        • Celine Kamhieh
          Rob, Can I email you about this PhD idea, separately from the mailing list, please? Celine ... Hi Juan and all, I concur with Juan Pino that we do need to
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 15, 2005
            Rob,
            Can I email you about this PhD idea, separately from the mailing list, please?

            Celine

            >>> waring@... 1/16/2005 8:02:03 AM >>>
            Hi Juan and all,

            I concur with Juan Pino that we do need to teach
            students to read online materials. He asks why
            isn't much of this being done. Let me offer
            reasons I don't do it within ER.

            a) to the vast majority of students the web is
            just noise. Until they reach a very high level of
            competence they will not be able to read it well
            unless they live in a dictionary. Even my most
            advanced students have great troubles - as do
            their teachers! Web-texts can of course be read
            intensively, but that is not ER and Juan Pino is
            asking about ER.

            b) Most material on the web is for natives and
            there is relatively little that is for L2
            (there's lots of young L1 stuff but that may not
            be what adults want to read). And the material
            that is there, is not graded in any useful or
            parallel way to the grading schemes in graded
            readers. All sites that do grade materials grade
            their materials differently. This makes finding
            suitable materials a chore. Not only that but
            there is little sense of linguistic scaffolding
            or progression as one reads through a site.

            c) Most teachers don't know where to look for
            suitable materials to teach reading online.

            d) most teachers do not know what skills or
            strategies need to be learnt (or how to teach
            them). And the skills are strategies are quite
            different. First, people read about 25% slower on
            a screen than on paper - L1 or L2. Second there
            is far more skimming and scanning. There is far
            more to distract the eye (graphics, videos etc)
            and people tend not to read whole texts from
            beginning to end. People need to move their eye
            off the page to scroll, etc. In fact we don't
            have much of a clear idea of HOW people read
            webpages let alone have a suitable teaching
            methodology to teach the strategies yet. PhD
            anyone?

            e) most computer classes (if a school is lucky to
            have access to computers) would be restricted to
            computer class, science or other studies and
            access for language classes may be limited.

            I'm sure there are more reasons why people are
            not flocking to the web to teach reading.

            R


            At 8:27 PM +0000 1/15/05, Juan Pino Silva wrote:
            >Hi. It's me again.
            >
            >For the 7th year in a row, 48 students at the Universidad Simón
            >Bolívar will be reading texts online and send in their main ideas to
            >a yahoogroup for one trimester. The proyect is to include two new
            >ingredients this time around. One enhancement is that the group will
            >send in a draft of their reading profile and they are to update it
            >every 2 weeks until they complete 5 drafts. Here they report
            >strategies, knowledge gained as they widen their prior knowledge and
            >get ready to enter the discourse of their community to become
            >engineers and scientists- a work in progress, that is.
            >Concurrently, content teachers are more actively collaborating with
            >the project providing the type of tasks they are likely to ask
            >students to do online. They too report to the yahogroup.
            >I am still surprised though at the paucity of research and
            >commentaries in both print and this list on web-ER. It would seem
            >that there are only a few people in the world taking students to the
            >web to serve the double purpose of learning to read and
            >simultaneously helping them to improve, rather than delay the
            >acquisition of their electronic literacy skills with which they are
            >to cope in content and/or academic courses. What's at issue here? Is
            >it resistance to change? Lack of pedagogic or theoretical models of
            >reading online?
            >
            >Sincerely,
            >
            >Juan Pino Silva, Ph.D.
            >Languages Department
            >Universidad Simón Bolívar
            >Caracas-Venezuela
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >To visit your group on the web, go to:
            ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtensiveReading/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtensiveReading/
            >
            >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            ><mailto:ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
            ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms
            >of Service.


            --
            Cheers

            Rob

            waring@...
          • juanarturo Pino
            Well Rob I can t say that your previous posting was a gift to ER practitioners around the world that do think they are doing ER even if they use ungraded but
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 16, 2005
              Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting was a gift to ER practitioners around the world that do think they are doing ER even if they use ungraded but authentic materials such as myself.  ER is a teaching practice in place before the grading systems that we have today were designed. I am sure  you don't really think that ER originated with the sale of the first simplified texts or  the input hypothesis. So I won't pursue the matter any further. 20 years ago the magazines that most universities teachers used in their reading classes (remember the authentic texts issue?) are now online. Where then do I send the students to get these magazines? To the newstand or the Internet?  I am not going to sit and wait for websites designers to grade their texts for me. If the rough, "student-centered" grading  I have done and will continue to do is not perfect, one should always remember that it is students who are to decide if a task is really "doable" or not.  Real life reading tasks are like that. I know I can't read and understand a  text on thermodynamics. My students can. They have the previous knowledge that I don't. Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready for it. Why do we now want the webpages to grade their material? 
              Sincerely,
              Juan
               
                
               
               
              >Hi


              following up on my own post. I just thought of this. I mentioned in
              the post that  ...

              >b) Most material on the web is for natives and there is relatively
              >little that is for L2 (there's lots of young L1 stuff but that may
              >not be what adults want to read). And the material that is there, is
              >not graded in any useful or parallel way to the grading schemes in
              >graded readers. All sites that do grade materials grade their
              >materials differently. This makes finding suitable materials a
              >chore. Not only that but there is little sense of linguistic
              >scaffolding or progression as one reads through a site.

              Two major problems for L2 readers (and teachers) are a) finding
              suitable reading materials online and b) knowing what 'level' of
              reading difficulty the page is. Wouldn't it be great if many of the
              L2 sites graded their texts according to a uniform scheme, then L2
              readers can look at a page and see what 'level' it is before reading
              it.

              So here is an idea. What do you all think about a Reading level
              grading scheme for wepages that are likely to be read by L2 learners?
              We all are familiar with reading schemes and scales for L1 that rate
              texts for difficulty, but we don't have one for L2 English. For
              example as the learner opens a webpage, there could be a little logo
              at the top that has that page's 'level'. This could be indicated by
              some logo of sorts . Of course many website writers would say but but
              but......  I don't have time, how do I grade the texts etc.

              One way to grade the pages uniformly is to create a website (say
              under the ER Foundation???) that has a series of scripts that can
              analyze the text electronically and give a 'reading level' of sorts.
              The results could be a 'reading level analysis' webpage which website
              authors could paste their texts into and then the webpage spits out a
              reading for the page. The author then has to just copy that level
              into the page they are writing (maybe by using the appropriate logo
              that is uniform for that level rating e.g. a small graphic that says
              "This page was rated as Level X by xyz  webpage / organization) .

              I'm not suggesting this is a short term project but one that could be
              done with a few dedicated individuals. There are already several text
              analysis pages out there already. These primarily analyse the lexis
              and sentence length / word length and these could be co-opted /
              adapted. It is a start!

              Any thoughts?

              --
              Cheers

              Rob

              waring@...


              Do you Yahoo!?
              Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.

            • Clive Lovelock
              Juan I don t know how long you ve been teaching, but when I started my first teaching job in East Africa as a fresh graduate from university, GRADED readers
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 17, 2005
                Juan

                I don't know how long you've been teaching, but when I started my first
                teaching job in East Africa as a fresh graduate from university, GRADED
                readers were widely used in secondary schools there. That was in 1965,
                and they'd already been around for some time then, thanks to the
                pioneering efforts of people like Michael West (who produced the
                original famous General Service List of words that served as a staqndard
                reference for generations of course writers materials writers and
                teachers). I'm not sure, but they may even predate World War II. Your
                message implies that they are new in our profession. Maybe in South
                America, but not elsewhere.

                CL

                juanarturo Pino wrote:
                > Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting was a gift to ER
                > practitioners around the world that do think they are doing ER even if
                > they use ungraded but authentic materials such as myself. ER is a
                > teaching practice in place before the grading systems that we have today
                > were designed. I am sure you don't really think that ER originated with
                > the sale of the first simplified texts or the input hypothesis. So I
                > won't pursue the matter any further. 20 years ago the magazines
                > that most universities teachers used in their reading classes (remember
                > the authentic texts issue?) are now online. Where then do I send the
                > students to get these magazines? To the newstand or the Internet? I am
                > not going to sit and wait for websites designers to grade their texts
                > for me. If the rough, "student-centered" grading I have done and will
                > continue to do is not perfect, one should always remember that it is
                > students who are to decide if a task is really "doable" or not. Real
                > life reading tasks are like that. I know I can't read and understand a
                > text on thermodynamics. My students can. They have the previous
                > knowledge that I don't. Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                > attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready for it. Why do we
                > now want the webpages to grade their material?
                > Sincerely,
                > Juan
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >Hi
                >
                >
                > following up on my own post. I just thought of this. I mentioned in
                > the post that ...
                >
                > >b) Most material on the web is for natives and there is relatively
                > >little that is for L2 (there's lots of young L1 stuff but that may
                > >not be what adults want to read). And the material that is there, is
                > >not graded in any useful or parallel way to the grading schemes in
                > >graded readers. All sites that do grade materials grade their
                > >materials differently. This makes finding suitable materials a
                > >chore. Not only that but there is little sense of linguistic
                > >scaffolding or progression as one reads through a site.
                >
                > Two major problems for L2 readers (and teachers) are a) finding
                > suitable reading materials online and b) knowing what 'level' of
                > reading difficulty the page is. Wouldn't it be great if many of the
                > L2 sites graded their texts according to a uniform scheme, then L2
                > readers can look at a page and see what 'level' it is before reading
                > it.
                >
                > So here is an idea. What do you all think about a Reading level
                > grading scheme for wepages that are likely to be read by L2 learners?
                > We all are familiar with reading schemes and scales for L1 that rate
                > texts for difficulty, but we don't have one for L2 English. For
                > example as the learner opens a webpage, there could be a little logo
                > at the top that has that page's 'level'. This could be indicated by
                > some logo of sorts . Of course many website writers would say but but
                > but...... I don't have time, how do I grade the texts etc.
                >
                > One way to grade the pages uniformly is to create a website (say
                > under the ER Foundation???) that has a series of scripts that can
                > analyze the text electronically and give a 'reading level' of sorts.
                > The results could be a 'reading level analysis' webpage which website
                > authors could paste their texts into and then the webpage spits out a
                > reading for the page. The author then has to just copy that level
                > into the page they are writing (maybe by using the appropriate logo
                > that is uniform for that level rating e.g. a small graphic that says
                > "This page was rated as Level X by xyz webpage / organization) .
                >
                > I'm not suggesting this is a short term project but one that could be
                > done with a few dedicated individuals. There are already several text
                > analysis pages out there already. These primarily analyse the lexis
                > and sentence length / word length and these could be co-opted /
                > adapted. It is a start!
                >
                > Any thoughts?
                >
                > --
                > Cheers
                >
                > Rob
                >
                > waring@...
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! Mail
                > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/security/*http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail/static/protection.html>
                > - You care about security. So do we.
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtensiveReading/
                >
                > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                >
                > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                >
                >
              • juanarturo Pino
                Hi Clive, My first encounter with graded books was early in my high school days (1963-69). I know they have been around for quite a while. What I think are
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 18, 2005
                  Hi Clive,
                  My first encounter with graded books was early in my high school days (1963-69). I know they  have been around for quite a while. What I think are more recent are the numerous and varied graded systems that we know today. My point is that (a) ungraded materials such as magazine articles are also respectable materials for ER and (b) that grading schemes for magazine articles can be done in a number of ways such as asking students following a rublic to self-evaluate  difficulty, enjoyment, appealing. A simple Yes or No to a question such as would you recommend your teacher to give this text to other student? is a great help in the absence of anything better. I also taught Spanish in England and the US and though I found no graded books in Spanish, this did not deter me from doing ER and promoting the idea  among colleagues. To the risk of belaboring the point, I offer the extreme example. As a requirement for my linguistics Ph.D. I had to take Quechua and my instructor had us read a collection of folk tales. I  read as many as I could quickly and for the gist. As one would expect no gradation of these materials was available but my intuition help me select the ones I could read. This is an extreme situation for Quechua is not a major languaje but Spanish is. Chinese is a major language and I am not sure if  my chinese colleague here who has 18 students could ever find graded books for her reading class.ER is not an English thing only, is it? Correct me if I am wrong but ER can go without grading of any kind or when grading is but  a crude measure. For now student's perception of difficulty works OK with online texts but I am sure we do not have to wait long before the software required for this task is developed and made available to us. In the meantime, I feel that even in the abscence of "graded online, magazine texts"  WEB-ER is an option. Isn't it?  
                   

                  Clive Lovelock <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp> wrote:
                  Juan

                  I don't know how long you've been teaching, but when I started my first
                  teaching job in East Africa as a fresh graduate from university, GRADED
                  readers were widely used in secondary schools there. That was in 1965,
                  and they'd already been around for some time then, thanks to the
                  pioneering efforts of people like Michael West (who produced the
                  original famous General Service List of words that served as a staqndard
                  reference for generations of course writers materials writers and
                  teachers). I'm not sure, but they may even predate World War II. Your
                  message implies that they are new in our profession. Maybe in South
                  America, but not elsewhere.

                  CL

                  juanarturo Pino wrote:
                  > Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting was a gift to ER
                  > practitioners around the world that do think they are doing ER even if
                  > they use ungraded but authentic materials such as myself.  ER is a
                  > teaching practice in place before the grading systems that we have today
                  > were designed. I am sure  you don't really think that ER originated with
                  > the sale of the first simplified texts or  the input hypothesis. So I
                  > won't pursue the matter any further. 20 years ago the magazines
                  > that most universities teachers used in their reading classes (remember
                  > the authentic texts issue?) are now online. Where then do I send the
                  > students to get these magazines? To the newstand or the Internet?  I am
                  > not going to sit and wait for websites designers to grade their texts
                  > for me. If the rough, "student-centered" grading  I have done and will
                  > continue to do is not perfect, one should always remember that it is
                  > students who are to decide if a task is really "doable" or not.  Real
                  > life reading tasks are like that. I know I can't read and understand a
                  >  text on thermodynamics. My students can. They have the previous
                  > knowledge that I don't. Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                  > attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready for it. Why do we
                  > now want the webpages to grade their material?
                  > Sincerely,
                  > Juan

                  >  


                  >
                  >      >Hi
                  >
                  >
                  >     following up on my own post. I just thought of this. I mentioned in
                  >     the post that  ...
                  >
                  >      >b) Most material on the web is for natives and there is relatively
                  >      >little that is for L2 (there's lots of young L1 stuff but that may
                  >      >not be what adults want to read). And the material that is there, is
                  >      >not graded in any useful or parallel way to the grading schemes in
                  >      >graded readers. All sites that do grade materials grade their
                  >      >materials differently. This makes finding suitable materials a
                  >      >chore. Not only that but there is little sense of linguistic
                  >      >scaffolding or progression as one reads through a site.
                  >
                  >     Two major problems for L2 readers (and teachers) are a) finding
                  >     suitable reading materials online and b) knowing what 'level' of
                  >     reading difficulty the page is. Wouldn't it be great if many of the
                  >     L2 sites graded their texts according to a uniform scheme, then L2
                  >     readers can look at a page and see what 'level' it is before reading
                  >     it.
                  >
                  >     So here is an idea. What do you all think about a Reading level
                  >     grading scheme for wepages that are likely to be read by L2 learners?
                  >     We all are familiar with reading schemes and scales for L1 that rate
                  >     texts for difficulty, but we don't have one for L2 English. For
                  >     example as the learner opens a webpage, there could be a little logo
                  >     at the top that has that page's 'level'. This could be indicated by
                  >     some logo of sorts . Of course many website writers would say but but
                  >     but......  I don't have time, how do I grade the texts etc.
                  >
                  >     One way to grade the pages uniformly is to create a website (say
                  >     under the ER Foundation???) that has a series of scripts that can
                  >     analyze the text electronically and give a 'reading level' of sorts.
                  >     The results could be a 'reading level analysis' webpage which website
                  >     authors could paste their texts into and then the webpage spits out a
                  >     reading for the page. The author then has to just copy that level
                  >     into the page they are writing (maybe by using the appropriate logo
                  >     that is uniform for that level rating e.g. a small graphic that says
                  >     "This page was rated as Level X by xyz  webpage / organization) .
                  >
                  >     I'm not suggesting this is a short term project but one that could be
                  >     done with a few dedicated individuals. There are already several text
                  >     analysis pages out there already. These primarily analyse the lexis
                  >     and sentence length / word length and these could be co-opted /
                  >     adapted. It is a start!
                  >
                  >     Any thoughts?
                  >
                  >     --
                  >     Cheers
                  >
                  >     Rob
                  >
                  >     waring@...
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! Mail
                  > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/security/*http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail/static/protection.html>
                  > - You care about security. So do we.
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtensiveReading/
                  >       
                  >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  >       ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >       <mailto:ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  >       
                  >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  >
                  >




                  Yahoo! Groups Links


                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

                • Clive Lovelock
                  Juan Thanx for your prompt reply. Let me dash this off before I forget. Like Mathew, I m in the throes of end-of-term admin, so e-mail often gets to the bottom
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 18, 2005
                    Juan

                    Thanx for your prompt reply. Let me dash this off before I forget. Like
                    Mathew, I'm in the throes of end-of-term admin, so e-mail often gets to
                    the bottom of the "in-tray" at this time of year.

                    I agree that some reading is better than no reading - provided that it
                    IS understandable - so if you're short of materials then you have to go
                    for ungraded stuff, but I think you must have a hell of a job picking
                    out studff that's suitable.

                    Of course, interest and / or prior knowledge of the subject matter from
                    L1 sources goes a long way in compensating for difficult language. But
                    the fact remains that an indiscriminate choice of non-graded materials
                    is bound turn off students who are not highly motivated or who are
                    unfamiliar with the subject and who are not confident in their ability
                    to understand English in the first place. Personally I think people
                    deceive themselves if they rely on guessing when reading a FL. Good
                    learners "are comfortable with ambiguity" (Rubin said that among others)
                    - i.e. they accept there's stuff they don't understand (but pay
                    attention to it if they see it repeatedly). I'm sure you know and agree
                    with this, but readers of this list who may be new to Extensive Reading
                    may not and may get the idea from your posting that non-graded reading
                    is just as good as graded reading (and often more interesting). I can't
                    agree with that. Nothing is very interesting for long if you're
                    frustrated by not being able to understand a large part of it. Moreover,
                    ungraded reading is a very strong temptation towards studying
                    dictionaries instead of pleasure reading.

                    CL

                    juanarturo Pino wrote:
                    > Hi Clive,
                    > My first encounter with graded books was early in my high school days
                    > (1963-69). I know they have been around for quite a while. What I think
                    > are more recent are the numerous and varied graded systems that we know
                    > today. My point is that (a) ungraded materials such as magazine articles
                    > are also respectable materials for ER and (b) that grading schemes for
                    > magazine articles can be done in a number of ways such as asking
                    > students following a rublic to self-evaluate difficulty,
                    > enjoyment, appealing. A simple Yes or No to a question such as would you
                    > recommend your teacher to give this text to other student? is a great
                    > help in the absence of anything better. I also taught Spanish in England
                    > and the US and though I found no graded books in Spanish, this did not
                    > deter me from doing ER and promoting the idea among colleagues. To the
                    > risk of belaboring the point, I offer the extreme example. As a
                    > requirement for my linguistics Ph.D. I had to take Quechua and my
                    > instructor had us read a collection of folk tales. I read as many as I
                    > could quickly and for the gist. As one would expect no gradation of
                    > these materials was available but my intuition help me select the ones I
                    > could read. This is an extreme situation for Quechua is not a major
                    > languaje but Spanish is. Chinese is a major language and I am not sure
                    > if my chinese colleague here who has 18 students could ever find graded
                    > books for her reading class.ER is not an English thing only, is it?
                    > Correct me if I am wrong but ER can go without grading of any kind or
                    > when grading is but a crude measure. For now student's perception of
                    > difficulty works OK with online texts but I am sure we do not have to
                    > wait long before the software required for this task is developed and
                    > made available to us. In the meantime, I feel that even in the abscence
                    > of "graded online, magazine texts" WEB-ER is an option. Isn't it?
                    >
                    >
                    > Clive Lovelock <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp> wrote:
                    >
                    > Juan
                    >
                    > I don't know how long you've been teaching, but when I started my first
                    > teaching job in East Africa as a fresh graduate from university, GRADED
                    > readers were widely used in secondary schools there. That was in 1965,
                    > and they'd already been around for some time then, thanks to the
                    > pioneering efforts of people like Michael West (who produced the
                    > original famous General Service List of words that served as a
                    > staqndard
                    > reference for generations of course writers materials writers and
                    > teachers). I'm not sure, but they may even predate World War II. Your
                    > message implies that they are new in our profession. Maybe in South
                    > America, but not elsewhere.
                    >
                    > CL
                    >
                    > juanarturo Pino wrote:
                    > > Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting was a gift to ER
                    > > practitioners around the world that do think they are doing ER
                    > even if
                    > > they use ungraded but authentic materials such as myself. ER is a
                    > > teaching practice in place before the grading systems that we
                    > have today
                    > > were designed. I am sure you don't really think that ER
                    > originated with
                    > > the sale of the first simplified texts or the input hypothesis.
                    > So I
                    > > won't pursue the matter any further. 20 years ago the magazines
                    > > that most universities teachers used in their reading classes
                    > (remember
                    > > the authentic texts issue?) are now online. Where then do I send the
                    > > students to get these magazines? To the newstand or the
                    > Internet? I am
                    > > not going to sit and wait for websites designers to grade their
                    > texts
                    > > for me. If the rough, "student-centered" grading I have done and
                    > will
                    > > continue to do is not perfect, one should always remember that it is
                    > > students who are to decide if a task is really "doable" or not.
                    > Real
                    > > life reading tasks are like that. I know I can't read and
                    > understand a
                    > > text on thermodynamics. My students can. They have the previous
                    > > knowledge that I don't. Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                    > > attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready for it. Why do we
                    > > now want the webpages to grade their material?
                    > > Sincerely,
                    > > Juan
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > >Hi
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > following up on my own post. I just thought of this. I
                    > mentioned in
                    > > the post that ...
                    > >
                    > > >b) Most material on the web is for natives and there is
                    > relatively
                    > > >little that is for L2 (there's lots of young L1 stuff but
                    > that may
                    > > >not be what adults want to read). And the material that is
                    > there, is
                    > > >not graded in any useful or parallel way to the grading
                    > schemes in
                    > > >graded readers. All sites that do grade materials grade their
                    > > >materials differently. This makes finding suitable materials a
                    > > >chore. Not only that but there is little sense of linguistic
                    > > >scaffolding or progression as one reads through a site.
                    > >
                    > > Two major problems for L2 readers (and teachers) are a) finding
                    > > suitable reading materials online and b) knowing what 'level' of
                    > > reading difficulty the page is. Wouldn't it be great if many
                    > of the
                    > > L2 sites graded their texts according to a uniform scheme,
                    > then L2
                    > > readers can look at a page and see what 'level' it is before
                    > reading
                    > > it.
                    > >
                    > > So here is an idea. What do you all think about a Reading level
                    > > grading scheme for wepages that are likely to be read by L2
                    > learners?
                    > > We all are familiar with reading schemes and scales for L1
                    > that rate
                    > > texts for difficulty, but we don't have one for L2 English. For
                    > > example as the learner opens a webpage, there could be a
                    > little logo
                    > > at the top that has that page's 'level'. This could be
                    > indicated by
                    > > some logo of sorts . Of course many website writers would say
                    > but but
                    > > but...... I don't have time, how do I grade the texts etc.
                    > >
                    > > One way to grade the pages uniformly is to create a website (say
                    > > under the ER Foundation???) that has a series of scripts that can
                    > > analyze the text electronically and give a 'reading level' of
                    > sorts.
                    > > The results could be a 'reading level analysis' webpage which
                    > website
                    > > authors could paste their texts into and then the webpage
                    > spits out a
                    > > reading for the page. The author then has to just copy that level
                    > > into the page they are writing (maybe by using the
                    > appropriate logo
                    > > that is uniform for that level rating e.g. a small graphic
                    > that says
                    > > "This page was rated as Level X by xyz webpage / organization) .
                    > >
                    > > I'm not suggesting this is a short term project but one that
                    > could be
                    > > done with a few dedicated individuals. There are already
                    > several text
                    > > analysis pages out there already. These primarily analyse the
                    > lexis
                    > > and sentence length / word length and these could be co-opted /
                    > > adapted. It is a start!
                    > >
                    > > Any thoughts?
                    > >
                    > > --
                    > > Cheers
                    > >
                    > > Rob
                    > >
                    > > waring@...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > > Yahoo! Mail
                    > >
                    > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/security/*http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail/static/protection.html>
                    >
                    > > - You care about security. So do we.
                    > >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtensiveReading/
                    > >
                    > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > <mailto:ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    > >
                    > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtensiveReading/
                    >
                    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    >
                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard
                    > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/spamguard/*http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail/static/protection.html>.
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtensiveReading/
                    >
                    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    >
                    > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                    >
                    >
                  • Rob Waring
                    Hi ... Oh dear I do seem to have stirred a hornets nest. But of course. I don t understand why you point this out. I m not denying the many flavours of ER.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 18, 2005
                      Hi

                      At 7:08 PM -0800 1/16/05, juanarturo Pino wrote:
                      >Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting
                      >was a gift to ER practitioners around the world
                      >that do think they are doing ER even if they use
                      >ungraded but authentic materials such as myself.
                      >ER is a teaching practice in place before the
                      >grading systems that we have today were designed.

                      Oh dear I do seem to have stirred a hornets nest.
                      But of course. I don't understand why you point
                      this out. I'm not denying the many flavours of
                      ER. Juan, of course reading native materials can
                      be called ER. There is NO QUESTION about that.
                      That goes for webpages as much as anything else.
                      But I feel that ER is a property of the READER
                      not the text.

                      I fully agree with you Juan that IF, and there is
                      a BIG if there, students are able to read the
                      webpages smoothly then more power to them. And
                      sure ER (in the meaning of read a lot and widely
                      in the true meaning of 'extensive') HAS been
                      around for a long time. With L2 though ER is
                      often seen as something we do with graded
                      materials. It need not though. But as I said it
                      is not ER if the students have to dive into a
                      dictionary or get help with it. It becomes
                      Intensive Reading in a way. Or at best 'difficult
                      ER'.

                      I'm talking about the student reading level not
                      the materials. I would submit that the VAST
                      majority of language students in the world cannot
                      read native material smoothly and fluently with
                      enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                      Therefore native materials are often noise to
                      non-natives. It is well established that we
                      cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                      of the surrounding co-text and have a good
                      knowledge of the topic. If we give them native
                      materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                      the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                      with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                      manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                      course they can put it down and find something
                      else to read.

                      So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                      students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                      read them smoothly and fluently and with
                      enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                      sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                      type of reading not IR. Imagine a beginner level
                      student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                      website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                      language problem not a reading problem. Those who
                      _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                      it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                      Juan is doing. I applaud this.

                      But the reason I suggested we might want a
                      grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                      students but for the tens of millions at lower
                      levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                      At the moment as far as I know there is no
                      webpage reading scheme that takes students
                      gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                      them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                      materials. We have this in print for L1
                      (children's through adult materials) and L2
                      (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                      anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                      let's make some.



                      >I am sure you don't really think that ER
                      >originated with the sale of the first simplified
                      >texts or  the input hypothesis.

                      Of course not. The first people to do this died
                      thousands of years ago. The ancient Greeks used
                      to simplify texts and have 'systems' of
                      simplifying language to be learnt by foreigners
                      as did the Romans with Latin. The basic principle
                      is that people in EFL start with materials at or
                      near their level.

                      >So I won't pursue the matter any further. 20
                      >years ago the magazines that most universities
                      >teachers used in their reading classes (remember
                      >the authentic texts issue?) are now online.
                      >Where then do I send the students to get these
                      >magazines? To the newstand or the Internet?  I
                      >am not going to sit and wait for websites
                      >designers to grade their texts for me.

                      This is not an issue I'm talking about. Where the
                      materials are is not my concern. What IS my
                      concern is that students have access to ER
                      materials including readable webpages.


                      >If the rough, "student-centered" grading I have
                      >done and will continue to do is not perfect, one
                      >should always remember that it is students who
                      >are to decide if a task is really "doable" or
                      >not. Real life reading tasks are like that.

                      Yes indeed. And a little sign on the way that
                      says what level material might can help them. It
                      may save them wasting valuable time.

                      >I know I can't read and understand a  text on
                      >thermodynamics. My students can. They have the
                      >previous knowledge that I don't.

                      Juan, your students are obviously a very high
                      level. I do not deny that they can do what you
                      say they can. What I'm saying is that for
                      students who either are not like yours, or have
                      not reached that level, a grading scheme can help
                      them find suitable materials and avoid the
                      de-motivating search through endless pages of
                      noise before they can find something they can
                      read. There is no way that teachers can recommend
                      all the sites and pages students can or should
                      read. Therefore I suggest that a simple logo of
                      the text difficulty (however that is determined)
                      may help students save time and effort and guide
                      them to suitable materials. This is my motivation.

                      > Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                      >attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready
                      >for it. Why do we now want the webpages to grade
                      >their material?

                      Hmm. I see this as a false analogy. L1 readers
                      begin reading with thousands of already known
                      words. L2 students don't. It's comparing apples
                      and oranges I think.

                      All the best.

                      --
                      Cheers

                      Rob

                      waring@...
                    • Rob Waring
                      ... I think this issue we have been discussing this last few days gets back to where we were 18 months ago about defining ER. What is it? what isn t it? So
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 18, 2005
                        Definitions of ER
                        Hi

                        I think this issue we have been discussing this last few days gets back to where we were 18 months ago about defining ER. What is it? what isn't it? So here is MY shot at some _possible_ definitions and titles. It's a bit rushed sorry. I'm busy right now.

                        Feel free to modify, delete, re-word as necessary.......

                        A first shot.

                        L1 Pleasure (Unrequired Extensive) reading
                        For natives (adults or children) learning their L1. The material is at a comfortable  reading level where most of the language is already known. The reading is done at a fair reading speed.  Reading books or other self-selected reading matter for the primary aim of enjoying what is read. The reading is not required by a course. The reading is often characterized as fluent and automatic, easy and for enjoyment. There is no language focus, but language may be picked up incidentally. The material may be graded for age.

                        E.g Children or adults reading Harry Potter for the fun of it. Browsing the web.


                        L2 Pleasure (Unrequired Extensive) reading
                        For second or foreign language learners learning to read in their L2. The material is at a comfortable  reading level where most of the language is already known. The reading is done at a fair reading speed. The material is self-selected reading books and other reading matter for the primary aim of enjoyment. Often the material has been graded in some way, but need not be if the reader is able to read it pleasurably. (The definition of pleasure rests with the reader not the text). It involves reading books or other reading matter for the primary aim of enjoying what is read. The reading is not required by a course. The reading is often characterized as fluent and automatic, easy and for enjoyment. There is no language focus, but language may be picked up incidentally.

                        E.g Reading a graded reader or a Time article for fun, information. Browsing the web.


                        L1 Required Extensive Reading
                        Reading materials as a course requirement. The material is at a comfortable  reading level where most of the language is already known. The reading is done at a fair reading speed. Enjoyment is preferred. Similar to L1 Pleasure Reading except that the reading may not be enjoyable or self-selected.

                        E.g Reading a native novel or a Time article as a course requirement with or without pleasure. The class may be reading John Steinbeck's the pearl as an example of his work. The aim is to go through it and analyse it in some way.


                        L2 Required Extensive Reading
                        This is a course requirement. Enjoyment is preferred. Similar to L2 Pleasure Reading except that the reading may not be enjoyable or self-selected .  The material is at a comfortable  reading level where most of the language is already known. The reading is done at a fair reading speed.

                        E.g Reading a graded reader or a newspaper article as a course requirement for fluency / language / speed practice.


                        L1 or L2 Intensive Reading
                        The material is NOT at a comfortable  reading level where a lot of the language is  UNknown (the aim is to teach it). The reading is often done slowly and laboriously. Reading (either in or out of class) at text which is used to be illustrative of some feature of the reading skill. For example introducing a text with a primary aim of looking at the text consciously. i.e for close comprehension check, to analyze language either in a literary way, or a language way, or to look at plot, rhetorical structure, character etc. Often the reading is difficult (but need not be), and involves considerable attention. The text may be a short text and  difficult but is read with frequent stops and pauses to analyze sections of the text.
                        -- 
                        
                        Cheers

                        Rob
                        waring@...

                        Question for the day,  "Can we have accidents when speed reading?"
                      • John Paul Loucky
                        I totally agree with Rob s proper motivation as a foreign language teacher to provide L2 readers with some type of understandable SIGNS regarding the
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 19, 2005
                          I totally agree with Rob's proper motivation as a foreign language teacher
                          to provide L2 readers with some type of understandable SIGNS regarding the
                          readability level of particular stories, texts or websites.
                          I have already done this and am doing it with Grad Eng students, tho
                          their vocab levels relative to native reader norms average the start of 4th
                          grade, same as most incoming freshmen have over the past decade at what is
                          regarded as best Engineering school in Kyushu.
                          I use 4 kinds of readability measures. I will demonstrate some of
                          these, as I have in the past, at JALTCALL 2005.
                          Rob is definitely right that both language teachers and students can
                          benefit immensely from knowing at least one of these ways of assessing the
                          level of a text they are anticipating reading. Rather than waste precious
                          time trying to read at a Frustration Level, we owe it to them to be able
                          help guide them to materials that are either at their Independent or
                          Instructional Levels, depending on their/our learning purposes.

                          John Paul Loucky

                          jploucky@...

                          I'm talking about the student reading level not
                          the materials.

                          Jpl-- OBVIOUSLY I AM TALKING ABOUT THE NEED TO MATCH BOTH OF THESE AS
                          CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE, BUT PROPER TAILORING DEPENDS UPON CORRECT DIAGNOSIS OR
                          ASSESSMENT OF BOTH TEXT LEVEL AND LEARNER'S READING LEVELS (composed of 3
                          types).

                          I would submit that the VAST
                          majority of language students in the world cannot
                          read native material smoothly and fluently with
                          enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                          Therefore native materials are often noise to
                          non-natives.

                          It is well established that we
                          cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                          of the surrounding coNtext and have a good
                          knowledge of the topic.

                          99% FOR INDEPENDENT READING.
                          95% FOR INSTRUCTIONAL READING.
                          THESE ARE STANDARD DEFINITIONS IN L1 RDG LIT.

                          If we give them native
                          materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                          the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                          with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                          manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                          course they can put it down and find something
                          else to read.

                          So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                          students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                          read them smoothly and fluently and with
                          enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                          sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                          type of reading not IR.

                          RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                          IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED ONLY ONE
                          TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER. SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL LEVEL OF MANY IN
                          THIS "NEW FIELD." RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS IT "CRAZY"
                          EXPECTATIONS INDEED!

                          Imagine a beginner level
                          student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                          website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                          language problem not a reading problem.

                          I SUBMIT THAT IT IS BOTH.

                          Those who
                          _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                          it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                          Juan is doing. I applaud this.

                          But the reason I suggested we might want a
                          grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                          students but for the tens of millions at lower
                          levels who need stepping into web=page reading.

                          At the moment as far as I know there is no
                          webpage reading scheme that takes students
                          gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                          them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                          materials.

                          We have this in print for L1
                          (children's through adult materials) and L2
                          (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                          anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                          let's make some.

                          Great ideas, Rob!

                          WILL DEMONSTRATE SUCH ONLINE RDG LAB USE AT JALTCALL IF U CAN COME.

                          JPL

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Rob Waring [mailto:waring@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:13 AM
                          To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Webpage grading scheme idea


                          Hi

                          At 7:08 PM -0800 1/16/05, juanarturo Pino wrote:
                          >Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting
                          >was a gift to ER practitioners around the world
                          >that do think they are doing ER even if they use
                          >ungraded but authentic materials such as myself.
                          >ER is a teaching practice in place before the
                          >grading systems that we have today were designed.

                          Oh dear I do seem to have stirred a hornets nest.
                          But of course. I don't understand why you point
                          this out. I'm not denying the many flavours of
                          ER. Juan, of course reading native materials can
                          be called ER. There is NO QUESTION about that.
                          That goes for webpages as much as anything else.
                          But I feel that ER is a property of the READER
                          not the text.

                          I fully agree with you Juan that IF, and there is
                          a BIG if there, students are able to read the
                          webpages smoothly then more power to them. And
                          sure ER (in the meaning of read a lot and widely
                          in the true meaning of 'extensive') HAS been
                          around for a long time. With L2 though ER is
                          often seen as something we do with graded
                          materials. It need not though. But as I said it
                          is not ER if the students have to dive into a
                          dictionary or get help with it. It becomes
                          Intensive Reading in a way. Or at best 'difficult
                          ER'.

                          I'm talking about the student reading level not
                          the materials. I would submit that the VAST
                          majority of language students in the world cannot
                          read native material smoothly and fluently with
                          enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                          Therefore native materials are often noise to
                          non-natives. It is well established that we
                          cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                          of the surrounding co-text and have a good
                          knowledge of the topic. If we give them native
                          materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                          the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                          with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                          manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                          course they can put it down and find something
                          else to read.

                          So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                          students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                          read them smoothly and fluently and with
                          enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                          sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                          type of reading not IR. Imagine a beginner level
                          student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                          website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                          language problem not a reading problem. Those who
                          _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                          it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                          Juan is doing. I applaud this.

                          But the reason I suggested we might want a
                          grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                          students but for the tens of millions at lower
                          levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                          At the moment as far as I know there is no
                          webpage reading scheme that takes students
                          gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                          them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                          materials. We have this in print for L1
                          (children's through adult materials) and L2
                          (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                          anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                          let's make some.



                          >I am sure you don't really think that ER
                          >originated with the sale of the first simplified
                          >texts or  the input hypothesis.

                          Of course not. The first people to do this died
                          thousands of years ago. The ancient Greeks used
                          to simplify texts and have 'systems' of
                          simplifying language to be learnt by foreigners
                          as did the Romans with Latin. The basic principle
                          is that people in EFL start with materials at or
                          near their level.

                          >So I won't pursue the matter any further. 20
                          >years ago the magazines that most universities
                          >teachers used in their reading classes (remember
                          >the authentic texts issue?) are now online.
                          >Where then do I send the students to get these
                          >magazines? To the newstand or the Internet?  I
                          >am not going to sit and wait for websites
                          >designers to grade their texts for me.

                          This is not an issue I'm talking about. Where the
                          materials are is not my concern. What IS my
                          concern is that students have access to ER
                          materials including readable webpages.


                          >If the rough, "student-centered" grading I have
                          >done and will continue to do is not perfect, one
                          >should always remember that it is students who
                          >are to decide if a task is really "doable" or
                          >not. Real life reading tasks are like that.

                          Yes indeed. And a little sign on the way that
                          says what level material might can help them. It
                          may save them wasting valuable time.

                          >I know I can't read and understand a  text on
                          >thermodynamics. My students can. They have the
                          >previous knowledge that I don't.

                          Juan, your students are obviously a very high
                          level. I do not deny that they can do what you
                          say they can. What I'm saying is that for
                          students who either are not like yours, or have
                          not reached that level, a grading scheme can help
                          them find suitable materials and avoid the
                          de-motivating search through endless pages of
                          noise before they can find something they can
                          read. There is no way that teachers can recommend
                          all the sites and pages students can or should
                          read. Therefore I suggest that a simple logo of
                          the text difficulty (however that is determined)
                          may help students save time and effort and guide
                          them to suitable materials. This is my motivation.

                          > Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                          >attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready
                          >for it. Why do we now want the webpages to grade
                          >their material?

                          Hmm. I see this as a false analogy. L1 readers
                          begin reading with thousands of already known
                          words. L2 students don't. It's comparing apples
                          and oranges I think.

                          All the best.

                          --
                          Cheers

                          Rob

                          waring@...




                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • John Paul Loucky
                          L1 or L2 Intensive Reading The material is NOT at a comfortable reading level where a lot of the language is UNknown (the aim is to teach it). IR IS NOT
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 19, 2005
                            Definitions of ER

                            L1 or L2 Intensive Reading

                             

                            The material is NOT at a comfortable  reading level where a lot of the language is  UNknown (the aim is to teach it).

                             

                                      IR IS NOT NECESSARILY “AT AN UNCOMFY RDG LEVEL.”

                             

                            ONLINE TEXT I JUST ANALYSED DID NOT HAVE “A LOT OF UNKNOWN LANGUAGE.”  IN FACT THESE WERE THE FIGURES:

                            1 78% Known K1 Words

                            2 9% mostly known K2 words

                            3 3% AWL Words

                            4 10% Off-List Words

                             

                            NOR WAS IT UNCOMFORTABLE FOR THE READING LEVEL OF A MAJORITY OF STUDENTS IN THIS LARGE 40 MEMBER CLASS.  To show this or what % of these words were or were not known by any particular class of students, of course, one would need to do a specific VKS, which anyone can do to confirm or correct my educated guesses.  I HAVE determined their individual levels at start of course, as usual.

                             

                                      By doing such an analysis one can find out exactly which words TO FOCUS LEARNER’S AND CLASS PRE-TEACHING TIME ON TO MAKE THE MOST OF LIMITED CLASS TIME.

                             

                                      If such pre-teaching is done, reading would be far less slow and laborious.  Not all Intensive Reading is by the way.  Sometimes, but it need not be, especially if teachers pre-test learner’s personal reading levels and individualize their readings accordingly.

                                      Wonder how many actually do, or can?

                             

                                      “Letting learners choose for themselves,” or fly by the seat of their own pants seems to be a far easier approach for some teachers.  Just like doing only Free-Writing without ever needing to grade, correct or respond to compositions, it’s nice for [____?] teachers, but hardly helps most learners who often have little idea what kinds of errors they are commonly making over and over.

                             

                                      While I would not claim that a majority of those using ER are coping out of adequate individual assessment due to some form of irresponsibility or lack of knowing how, there surely are some in that category.  Just because it’s easy to say, “Let kids choose what they want to read for themselves,” doesn’t make that approach necessarily ideal or sound, either educationally or linguistically.  Regardless of who writes such & such a “research study” to defend it!

                             

                                      Please SHOW ME how U measure your own students’ reading levels, as well as the readability levels of their texts.  Then we can all compare them scientifically to see how well matched or mis-matched they are, can’t we?

                             

                                      jpl

                                     

                            The reading is often done slowly and laboriously. Reading (either in or out of class) at text which is used to be illustrative of some feature of the reading skill. For example introducing a text with a primary aim of looking at the text consciously. i.e for close comprehension check, to analyze language either in a literary way, or a language way, or to look at plot, rhetorical structure, character etc. Often the reading is difficult (but need not be), and involves considerable attention. The text may be a short text and  difficult but is read with frequent stops and pauses to analyze sections of the text.

                             -- 

                            Cheers

                            Rob

                            waring@...

                             

                            Question for the day,  "Can we have accidents when speed reading?"

                             

                          • Brett Reynolds
                            I think a mechanical aid to grading is a valuable tool. I don t see any reason why we would limit it to web pages. In fact, practically speaking, getting a
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 19, 2005
                              I think a mechanical aid to grading is a valuable tool. I don't see any
                              reason why we would limit it to web pages. In fact, practically
                              speaking, getting a whole bunch of web sites to agree to submit to
                              grading and display an appropriate logo is sounds like a whole lot of
                              unnecessary work. Instead, I think a tool very much like Tom Cobb's Web
                              Vocabulary Profiler <http://www.lextutor.ca/vp/eng/> would do the
                              trick. Students or teachers could simply select a text and submit it
                              for processing.

                              A little more refinement to what WebVP already does would be nice for
                              ER purposes. Currently, it identifies words at the following frequency
                              bands: first 500, second 500, second 1000, and AWL. To make this tool
                              more ER friendly a more finely graded scale would be nice. In fact,
                              with advances in processing capabilities, I think it would even be
                              possible to assign each word (lemma, or word family) a value and
                              compute and say how many words would have to be known to reach the 95,
                              98, and 99% thresholds. This, of course, makes the incorrect assumption
                              that students learn the vocabulary in a set order, but it's the same
                              assumption that is currently made with the frequency bands, or GR
                              levels.

                              The type-token ratio would also be helpful, but the ratio is highly
                              dependent on the length of the text. There are a number of ways to
                              overcome this problem, including simply limiting the text length for
                              purposes of calculation.

                              Sentence complexity / length might also enter inter the equation.


                              -----------------------
                              Brett Reynolds
                              English Language Centre
                              Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
                              Toronto, Ontario, Canada
                              brett.reynolds@...
                            • juanarturo Pino
                              Hi, Brett and Everyone, I am sure that we will soon have plenty of resources available to us to improve what we now do intuitively. When we have those tools I
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 19, 2005
                                Hi, Brett and Everyone,
                                 
                                I am sure that we will soon have plenty of resources available to us to improve what we now do intuitively. When we have those tools I will be very happy to use them. I dream of something like the web translators  (which by the way do not yet do a good job but are making progress)
                                where I can  paste a text and get a simplified text minutes later. I happen to know that this work is currently under way but can't say more. In the meantime, what do we as reading teachers do with the hundreds of magazine articles (and similar such materials)  already online, the hundreds of million people in the world loggin in daily, many of which could be L2 learners/readers?     I have chosen to act now. I am asking my students to read online articles their peers have previously evaluated and then ask them to write three points the author makes, write a main idea or a summary and then send these to YGs especially designed for these purposes. They also keep a diary. One  student writes about pleasure: "At first I didn't like (it) but I am learning, reading is good for my career You aleways ask I like reading in the internet. It is no easy but learn. I like learn totally. An teacher, my major is Informatics but like cars. I wan to read about formula 1. Seeya." (Roger, 17 years old, English 1 , cited  with his permission).
                                This testimony appears to be saying  that pleasure may be in the fact that Roger is learning about cars, learning to read and  in the challenge he is facing.   Thus, if we may believe in student's comments as good data,  pleasure in  "pleasure reading" may be anywhere from what one reads about to the challenge posed by the task, the colors and/or the length of the texts, the background  and accompanying visuals, etc.
                                 
                                I am sorry I fell behind in my responding to some of the challenges in this thread. I will try to respond as soon as posible. I hope this thread does not die here: Web-er has the ingredients to test our beliefs abour ER and  I hope that my example show that the word pleasure in the definition of  ER may need to be looked at from other angles as well.     Why don't we do the research that is needed?
                                Greetings,
                                Juan
                                 
                                           
                                 

                                Brett Reynolds <brett@...> wrote:
                                I think a mechanical aid to grading is a valuable tool. I don't see any
                                reason why we would limit it to web pages. In fact, practically
                                speaking, getting a whole bunch of web sites to agree to submit to
                                grading and display an appropriate logo is sounds like a whole lot of
                                unnecessary work. Instead, I think a tool very much like Tom Cobb's Web
                                Vocabulary Profiler would do the
                                trick. Students or teachers could simply select a text and submit it
                                for processing.

                                A little more refinement to what WebVP already does would be nice for
                                ER purposes. Currently, it identifies words at the following frequency
                                bands: first 500, second 500, second 1000, and AWL. To make this tool
                                more ER friendly a more finely graded scale would be nice. In fact,
                                with advances in processing capabilities, I think it would even be
                                possible to assign each word (lemma, or word family) a value and
                                compute and say how many words would have to be known to reach the 95,
                                98, and 99% thresholds. This, of course, makes the incorrect assumption
                                that students learn the vocabulary in a set order, but it's the same
                                assumption that is currently made with the frequency bands, or GR
                                levels.

                                The type-token ratio would also be helpful, but the ratio is highly
                                dependent on the length of the text. There are a number of ways to
                                overcome this problem, including simply limiting the text length for
                                purposes of calculation.

                                Sentence complexity / length might also enter inter the equation.


                                -----------------------
                                Brett Reynolds
                                English Language Centre
                                Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
                                Toronto, Ontario, Canada
                                brett.reynolds@...


                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'

                              • Juan Pino Silva
                                Hi everyone, For more on ER Definition, see messages number 909 up to 936 in this list. Juan ... the ... LANGUAGE. IN ... STUDENTS IN ... were or ... would
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 20, 2005
                                  Hi everyone,

                                  For more on ER Definition, see messages number 909 up to 936 in
                                  this list.
                                  Juan



                                  --- In ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com, "John Paul Loucky"
                                  <jploucky@m...> wrote:
                                  > L1 or L2 Intensive Reading
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The material is NOT at a comfortable reading level where a lot of
                                  the
                                  > language is UNknown (the aim is to teach it).
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > IR IS NOT NECESSARILY "AT AN UNCOMFY RDG LEVEL."
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ONLINE TEXT I JUST ANALYSED DID NOT HAVE "A LOT OF UNKNOWN
                                  LANGUAGE." IN
                                  > FACT THESE WERE THE FIGURES:
                                  >
                                  > 1 78% Known K1 Words
                                  >
                                  > 2 9% mostly known K2 words
                                  >
                                  > 3 3% AWL Words
                                  >
                                  > 4 10% Off-List Words
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > NOR WAS IT UNCOMFORTABLE FOR THE READING LEVEL OF A MAJORITY OF
                                  STUDENTS IN
                                  > THIS LARGE 40 MEMBER CLASS. To show this or what % of these words
                                  were or
                                  > were not known by any particular class of students, of course, one
                                  would
                                  > need to do a specific VKS, which anyone can do to confirm or
                                  correct my
                                  > educated guesses. I HAVE determined their individual levels at
                                  start of
                                  > course, as usual.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > By doing such an analysis one can find out exactly which
                                  words TO
                                  > FOCUS LEARNER'S AND CLASS PRE-TEACHING TIME ON TO MAKE THE MOST OF
                                  LIMITED
                                  > CLASS TIME.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > If such pre-teaching is done, reading would be far less
                                  slow and
                                  > laborious. Not all Intensive Reading is by the way. Sometimes,
                                  but it need
                                  > not be, especially if teachers pre-test learner's personal reading
                                  levels
                                  > and individualize their readings accordingly.
                                  >
                                  > Wonder how many actually do, or can?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Letting learners choose for themselves," or fly by the
                                  seat of
                                  > their own pants seems to be a far easier approach for some
                                  teachers. Just
                                  > like doing only Free-Writing without ever needing to grade, correct
                                  or
                                  > respond to compositions, it's nice for [____?] teachers, but hardly
                                  helps
                                  > most learners who often have little idea what kinds of errors they
                                  are
                                  > commonly making over and over.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > While I would not claim that a majority of those using ER
                                  are
                                  > coping out of adequate individual assessment due to some form of
                                  > irresponsibility or lack of knowing how, there surely are some in
                                  that
                                  > category. Just because it's easy to say, "Let kids choose what
                                  they want to
                                  > read for themselves," doesn't make that approach necessarily ideal
                                  or sound,
                                  > either educationally or linguistically. Regardless of who writes
                                  such &
                                  > such a "research study" to defend it!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Please SHOW ME how U measure your own students' reading
                                  levels, as
                                  > well as the readability levels of their texts. Then we can all
                                  compare them
                                  > scientifically to see how well matched or mis-matched they are,
                                  can't we?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > jpl
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > The reading is often done slowly and laboriously. Reading (either
                                  in or out
                                  > of class) at text which is used to be illustrative of some feature
                                  of the
                                  > reading skill. For example introducing a text with a primary aim of
                                  looking
                                  > at the text consciously. i.e for close comprehension check, to
                                  analyze
                                  > language either in a literary way, or a language way, or to look at
                                  plot,
                                  > rhetorical structure, character etc. Often the reading is difficult
                                  (but
                                  > need not be), and involves considerable attention. The text may be
                                  a short
                                  > text and difficult but is read with frequent stops and pauses to
                                  analyze
                                  > sections of the text.
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  >
                                  > Cheers
                                  >
                                  > Rob
                                  >
                                  > waring@p...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Question for the day, "Can we have accidents when speed reading?"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > _____
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtensiveReading/
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                                  subject=Unsubscribe>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                  of
                                  > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service.
                                • Juan Pino Silva
                                  Rob John and all, I was about to respond to this but these two portions (of the larger piece below) are not the best example of tolerance to new or different
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 20, 2005
                                    Rob John and all,

                                    I was about to respond to this but these two portions (of the larger
                                    piece below) are not the best example of tolerance to new or
                                    different ideas. I'm sorry I thought I was making a contribution as I
                                    have in the past but I definitely cannot tolerate abusive language.
                                    Thus, I'd better take my crazy and ridiculous claims somewhere else
                                    or simply shut up. Way to go guys.
                                    Juan

                                    -*-------------------------

                                    Rob "So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                    students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                    read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                    enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                    sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                    type of reading not IR".

                                    JPL "RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                                    IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED ONLY ONE
                                    TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER. SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL LEVEL OF
                                    MANY IN THIS "NEW FIELD." RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS
                                    IT "CRAZY" EXPECTATIONS INDEED!"

                                    ------------------

                                    --- In ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com, "John Paul Loucky"
                                    <jploucky@m...> wrote:
                                    > I totally agree with Rob's proper motivation as a foreign language
                                    teacher
                                    > to provide L2 readers with some type of understandable SIGNS
                                    regarding the
                                    > readability level of particular stories, texts or websites.
                                    > I have already done this and am doing it with Grad Eng
                                    students, tho
                                    > their vocab levels relative to native reader norms average the
                                    start of 4th
                                    > grade, same as most incoming freshmen have over the past decade at
                                    what is
                                    > regarded as best Engineering school in Kyushu.
                                    > I use 4 kinds of readability measures. I will demonstrate
                                    some of
                                    > these, as I have in the past, at JALTCALL 2005.
                                    > Rob is definitely right that both language teachers and
                                    students can
                                    > benefit immensely from knowing at least one of these ways of
                                    assessing the
                                    > level of a text they are anticipating reading. Rather than waste
                                    precious
                                    > time trying to read at a Frustration Level, we owe it to them to be
                                    able
                                    > help guide them to materials that are either at their Independent or
                                    > Instructional Levels, depending on their/our learning purposes.
                                    >
                                    > John Paul Loucky
                                    >
                                    > jploucky@m...
                                    >
                                    > I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                    > the materials.
                                    >
                                    > Jpl-- OBVIOUSLY I AM TALKING ABOUT THE NEED TO MATCH BOTH OF THESE
                                    AS
                                    > CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE, BUT PROPER TAILORING DEPENDS UPON CORRECT
                                    DIAGNOSIS OR
                                    > ASSESSMENT OF BOTH TEXT LEVEL AND LEARNER'S READING LEVELS
                                    (composed of 3
                                    > types).
                                    >
                                    > I would submit that the VAST
                                    > majority of language students in the world cannot
                                    > read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                    > enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                    > Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                    > non-natives.
                                    >
                                    > It is well established that we
                                    > cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                    > of the surrounding coNtext and have a good
                                    > knowledge of the topic.
                                    >
                                    > 99% FOR INDEPENDENT READING.
                                    > 95% FOR INSTRUCTIONAL READING.
                                    > THESE ARE STANDARD DEFINITIONS IN L1 RDG LIT.
                                    >
                                    > If we give them native
                                    > materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                    > the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                    > with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                    > manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                    > course they can put it down and find something
                                    > else to read.
                                    >
                                    > So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                    > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                    > read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                    > enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                    > sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                    > type of reading not IR.
                                    >
                                    > RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                                    > IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED ONLY
                                    ONE
                                    > TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER. SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL LEVEL OF
                                    MANY IN
                                    > THIS "NEW FIELD." RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS IT "CRAZY"
                                    > EXPECTATIONS INDEED!
                                    >
                                    > Imagine a beginner level
                                    > student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                    > website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                    > language problem not a reading problem.
                                    >
                                    > I SUBMIT THAT IT IS BOTH.
                                    >
                                    > Those who
                                    > _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                    > it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                    > Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                    >
                                    > But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                    > grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                    > students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                    > levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                    >
                                    > At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                    > webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                    > gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                    > them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                    > materials.
                                    >
                                    > We have this in print for L1
                                    > (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                    > (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                    > anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                    > let's make some.
                                    >
                                    > Great ideas, Rob!
                                    >
                                    > WILL DEMONSTRATE SUCH ONLINE RDG LAB USE AT JALTCALL IF U CAN
                                    COME.
                                    >
                                    > JPL
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: Rob Waring [mailto:waring@p...]
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:13 AM
                                    > To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Webpage grading scheme idea
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi
                                    >
                                    > At 7:08 PM -0800 1/16/05, juanarturo Pino wrote:
                                    > >Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting
                                    > >was a gift to ER practitioners around the world
                                    > >that do think they are doing ER even if they use
                                    > >ungraded but authentic materials such as myself.
                                    > >ER is a teaching practice in place before the
                                    > >grading systems that we have today were designed.
                                    >
                                    > Oh dear I do seem to have stirred a hornets nest.
                                    > But of course. I don't understand why you point
                                    > this out. I'm not denying the many flavours of
                                    > ER. Juan, of course reading native materials can
                                    > be called ER. There is NO QUESTION about that.
                                    > That goes for webpages as much as anything else.
                                    > But I feel that ER is a property of the READER
                                    > not the text.
                                    >
                                    > I fully agree with you Juan that IF, and there is
                                    > a BIG if there, students are able to read the
                                    > webpages smoothly then more power to them. And
                                    > sure ER (in the meaning of read a lot and widely
                                    > in the true meaning of 'extensive') HAS been
                                    > around for a long time. With L2 though ER is
                                    > often seen as something we do with graded
                                    > materials. It need not though. But as I said it
                                    > is not ER if the students have to dive into a
                                    > dictionary or get help with it. It becomes
                                    > Intensive Reading in a way. Or at best 'difficult
                                    > ER'.
                                    >
                                    > I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                    > the materials. I would submit that the VAST
                                    > majority of language students in the world cannot
                                    > read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                    > enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                    > Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                    > non-natives. It is well established that we
                                    > cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                    > of the surrounding co-text and have a good
                                    > knowledge of the topic. If we give them native
                                    > materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                    > the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                    > with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                    > manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                    > course they can put it down and find something
                                    > else to read.
                                    >
                                    > So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                    > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                    > read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                    > enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                    > sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                    > type of reading not IR. Imagine a beginner level
                                    > student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                    > website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                    > language problem not a reading problem. Those who
                                    > _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                    > it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                    > Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                    >
                                    > But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                    > grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                    > students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                    > levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                    > At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                    > webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                    > gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                    > them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                    > materials. We have this in print for L1
                                    > (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                    > (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                    > anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                    > let's make some.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >I am sure you don't really think that ER
                                    > >originated with the sale of the first simplified
                                    > >texts or  the input hypothesis.
                                    >
                                    > Of course not. The first people to do this died
                                    > thousands of years ago. The ancient Greeks used
                                    > to simplify texts and have 'systems' of
                                    > simplifying language to be learnt by foreigners
                                    > as did the Romans with Latin. The basic principle
                                    > is that people in EFL start with materials at or
                                    > near their level.
                                    >
                                    > >So I won't pursue the matter any further. 20
                                    > >years ago the magazines that most universities
                                    > >teachers used in their reading classes (remember
                                    > >the authentic texts issue?) are now online.
                                    > >Where then do I send the students to get these
                                    > >magazines? To the newstand or the Internet?  I
                                    > >am not going to sit and wait for websites
                                    > >designers to grade their texts for me.
                                    >
                                    > This is not an issue I'm talking about. Where the
                                    > materials are is not my concern. What IS my
                                    > concern is that students have access to ER
                                    > materials including readable webpages.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >If the rough, "student-centered" grading I have
                                    > >done and will continue to do is not perfect, one
                                    > >should always remember that it is students who
                                    > >are to decide if a task is really "doable" or
                                    > >not. Real life reading tasks are like that.
                                    >
                                    > Yes indeed. And a little sign on the way that
                                    > says what level material might can help them. It
                                    > may save them wasting valuable time.
                                    >
                                    > >I know I can't read and understand a  text on
                                    > >thermodynamics. My students can. They have the
                                    > >previous knowledge that I don't.
                                    >
                                    > Juan, your students are obviously a very high
                                    > level. I do not deny that they can do what you
                                    > say they can. What I'm saying is that for
                                    > students who either are not like yours, or have
                                    > not reached that level, a grading scheme can help
                                    > them find suitable materials and avoid the
                                    > de-motivating search through endless pages of
                                    > noise before they can find something they can
                                    > read. There is no way that teachers can recommend
                                    > all the sites and pages students can or should
                                    > read. Therefore I suggest that a simple logo of
                                    > the text difficulty (however that is determined)
                                    > may help students save time and effort and guide
                                    > them to suitable materials. This is my motivation.
                                    >
                                    > > Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                                    > >attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready
                                    > >for it. Why do we now want the webpages to grade
                                    > >their material?
                                    >
                                    > Hmm. I see this as a false analogy. L1 readers
                                    > begin reading with thousands of already known
                                    > words. L2 students don't. It's comparing apples
                                    > and oranges I think.
                                    >
                                    > All the best.
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Cheers
                                    >
                                    > Rob
                                    >
                                    > waring@p...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  • Juan Pino Silva
                                    Just a quick note before I foget: For more on Web-ER see messages 877 up to 859 and some other messages in the vicinity. Juan ... larger ... I ... language.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 20, 2005
                                      Just a quick note before I foget: For more on Web-ER see messages 877
                                      up to 859 and some other messages in the vicinity.
                                      Juan

                                      --- In ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com, "Juan Pino Silva"
                                      <educaonline2@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Rob John and all,
                                      >
                                      > I was about to respond to this but these two portions (of the
                                      larger
                                      > piece below) are not the best example of tolerance to new or
                                      > different ideas. I'm sorry I thought I was making a contribution as
                                      I
                                      > have in the past but I definitely cannot tolerate abusive
                                      language.
                                      > Thus, I'd better take my crazy and ridiculous claims somewhere
                                      else
                                      > or simply shut up. Way to go guys.
                                      > Juan
                                      >
                                      > -*-------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Rob "So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                      > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                      > read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                      > enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                      > sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                      > type of reading not IR".
                                      >
                                      > JPL "RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                                      > IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED ONLY ONE
                                      > TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER. SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL LEVEL OF
                                      > MANY IN THIS "NEW FIELD." RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS
                                      > IT "CRAZY" EXPECTATIONS INDEED!"
                                      >
                                      > ------------------
                                      >
                                      > --- In ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com, "John Paul Loucky"
                                      > <jploucky@m...> wrote:
                                      > > I totally agree with Rob's proper motivation as a foreign
                                      language
                                      > teacher
                                      > > to provide L2 readers with some type of understandable SIGNS
                                      > regarding the
                                      > > readability level of particular stories, texts or websites.
                                      > > I have already done this and am doing it with Grad Eng
                                      > students, tho
                                      > > their vocab levels relative to native reader norms average the
                                      > start of 4th
                                      > > grade, same as most incoming freshmen have over the past decade
                                      at
                                      > what is
                                      > > regarded as best Engineering school in Kyushu.
                                      > > I use 4 kinds of readability measures. I will demonstrate
                                      > some of
                                      > > these, as I have in the past, at JALTCALL 2005.
                                      > > Rob is definitely right that both language teachers and
                                      > students can
                                      > > benefit immensely from knowing at least one of these ways of
                                      > assessing the
                                      > > level of a text they are anticipating reading. Rather than waste
                                      > precious
                                      > > time trying to read at a Frustration Level, we owe it to them to
                                      be
                                      > able
                                      > > help guide them to materials that are either at their Independent
                                      or
                                      > > Instructional Levels, depending on their/our learning purposes.
                                      > >
                                      > > John Paul Loucky
                                      > >
                                      > > jploucky@m...
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                      > > the materials.
                                      > >
                                      > > Jpl-- OBVIOUSLY I AM TALKING ABOUT THE NEED TO MATCH BOTH
                                      OF THESE
                                      > AS
                                      > > CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE, BUT PROPER TAILORING DEPENDS UPON CORRECT
                                      > DIAGNOSIS OR
                                      > > ASSESSMENT OF BOTH TEXT LEVEL AND LEARNER'S READING LEVELS
                                      > (composed of 3
                                      > > types).
                                      > >
                                      > > I would submit that the VAST
                                      > > majority of language students in the world cannot
                                      > > read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                      > > enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                      > > Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                      > > non-natives.
                                      > >
                                      > > It is well established that we
                                      > > cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                      > > of the surrounding coNtext and have a good
                                      > > knowledge of the topic.
                                      > >
                                      > > 99% FOR INDEPENDENT READING.
                                      > > 95% FOR INSTRUCTIONAL READING.
                                      > > THESE ARE STANDARD DEFINITIONS IN L1 RDG LIT.
                                      > >
                                      > > If we give them native
                                      > > materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                      > > the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                      > > with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                      > > manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                      > > course they can put it down and find something
                                      > > else to read.
                                      > >
                                      > > So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                      > > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                      > > read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                      > > enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                      > > sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                      > > type of reading not IR.
                                      > >
                                      > > RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                                      > > IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED ONLY
                                      > ONE
                                      > > TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER. SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL LEVEL
                                      OF
                                      > MANY IN
                                      > > THIS "NEW FIELD." RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS IT "CRAZY"
                                      > > EXPECTATIONS INDEED!
                                      > >
                                      > > Imagine a beginner level
                                      > > student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                      > > website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                      > > language problem not a reading problem.
                                      > >
                                      > > I SUBMIT THAT IT IS BOTH.
                                      > >
                                      > > Those who
                                      > > _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                      > > it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                      > > Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                      > >
                                      > > But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                      > > grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                      > > students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                      > > levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                      > >
                                      > > At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                      > > webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                      > > gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                      > > them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                      > > materials.
                                      > >
                                      > > We have this in print for L1
                                      > > (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                      > > (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                      > > anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                      > > let's make some.
                                      > >
                                      > > Great ideas, Rob!
                                      > >
                                      > > WILL DEMONSTRATE SUCH ONLINE RDG LAB USE AT JALTCALL IF U CAN
                                      > COME.
                                      > >
                                      > > JPL
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: Rob Waring [mailto:waring@p...]
                                      > > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:13 AM
                                      > > To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Webpage grading scheme idea
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi
                                      > >
                                      > > At 7:08 PM -0800 1/16/05, juanarturo Pino wrote:
                                      > > >Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting
                                      > > >was a gift to ER practitioners around the world
                                      > > >that do think they are doing ER even if they use
                                      > > >ungraded but authentic materials such as myself.
                                      > > >ER is a teaching practice in place before the
                                      > > >grading systems that we have today were designed.
                                      > >
                                      > > Oh dear I do seem to have stirred a hornets nest.
                                      > > But of course. I don't understand why you point
                                      > > this out. I'm not denying the many flavours of
                                      > > ER. Juan, of course reading native materials can
                                      > > be called ER. There is NO QUESTION about that.
                                      > > That goes for webpages as much as anything else.
                                      > > But I feel that ER is a property of the READER
                                      > > not the text.
                                      > >
                                      > > I fully agree with you Juan that IF, and there is
                                      > > a BIG if there, students are able to read the
                                      > > webpages smoothly then more power to them. And
                                      > > sure ER (in the meaning of read a lot and widely
                                      > > in the true meaning of 'extensive') HAS been
                                      > > around for a long time. With L2 though ER is
                                      > > often seen as something we do with graded
                                      > > materials. It need not though. But as I said it
                                      > > is not ER if the students have to dive into a
                                      > > dictionary or get help with it. It becomes
                                      > > Intensive Reading in a way. Or at best 'difficult
                                      > > ER'.
                                      > >
                                      > > I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                      > > the materials. I would submit that the VAST
                                      > > majority of language students in the world cannot
                                      > > read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                      > > enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                      > > Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                      > > non-natives. It is well established that we
                                      > > cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                      > > of the surrounding co-text and have a good
                                      > > knowledge of the topic. If we give them native
                                      > > materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                      > > the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                      > > with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                      > > manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                      > > course they can put it down and find something
                                      > > else to read.
                                      > >
                                      > > So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                      > > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                      > > read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                      > > enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                      > > sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                      > > type of reading not IR. Imagine a beginner level
                                      > > student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                      > > website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                      > > language problem not a reading problem. Those who
                                      > > _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                      > > it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                      > > Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                      > >
                                      > > But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                      > > grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                      > > students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                      > > levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                      > > At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                      > > webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                      > > gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                      > > them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                      > > materials. We have this in print for L1
                                      > > (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                      > > (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                      > > anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                      > > let's make some.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > >I am sure you don't really think that ER
                                      > > >originated with the sale of the first simplified
                                      > > >texts or  the input hypothesis.
                                      > >
                                      > > Of course not. The first people to do this died
                                      > > thousands of years ago. The ancient Greeks used
                                      > > to simplify texts and have 'systems' of
                                      > > simplifying language to be learnt by foreigners
                                      > > as did the Romans with Latin. The basic principle
                                      > > is that people in EFL start with materials at or
                                      > > near their level.
                                      > >
                                      > > >So I won't pursue the matter any further. 20
                                      > > >years ago the magazines that most universities
                                      > > >teachers used in their reading classes (remember
                                      > > >the authentic texts issue?) are now online.
                                      > > >Where then do I send the students to get these
                                      > > >magazines? To the newstand or the Internet?  I
                                      > > >am not going to sit and wait for websites
                                      > > >designers to grade their texts for me.
                                      > >
                                      > > This is not an issue I'm talking about. Where the
                                      > > materials are is not my concern. What IS my
                                      > > concern is that students have access to ER
                                      > > materials including readable webpages.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > >If the rough, "student-centered" grading I have
                                      > > >done and will continue to do is not perfect, one
                                      > > >should always remember that it is students who
                                      > > >are to decide if a task is really "doable" or
                                      > > >not. Real life reading tasks are like that.
                                      > >
                                      > > Yes indeed. And a little sign on the way that
                                      > > says what level material might can help them. It
                                      > > may save them wasting valuable time.
                                      > >
                                      > > >I know I can't read and understand a  text on
                                      > > >thermodynamics. My students can. They have the
                                      > > >previous knowledge that I don't.
                                      > >
                                      > > Juan, your students are obviously a very high
                                      > > level. I do not deny that they can do what you
                                      > > say they can. What I'm saying is that for
                                      > > students who either are not like yours, or have
                                      > > not reached that level, a grading scheme can help
                                      > > them find suitable materials and avoid the
                                      > > de-motivating search through endless pages of
                                      > > noise before they can find something they can
                                      > > read. There is no way that teachers can recommend
                                      > > all the sites and pages students can or should
                                      > > read. Therefore I suggest that a simple logo of
                                      > > the text difficulty (however that is determined)
                                      > > may help students save time and effort and guide
                                      > > them to suitable materials. This is my motivation.
                                      > >
                                      > > > Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                                      > > >attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready
                                      > > >for it. Why do we now want the webpages to grade
                                      > > >their material?
                                      > >
                                      > > Hmm. I see this as a false analogy. L1 readers
                                      > > begin reading with thousands of already known
                                      > > words. L2 students don't. It's comparing apples
                                      > > and oranges I think.
                                      > >
                                      > > All the best.
                                      > >
                                      > > --
                                      > > Cheers
                                      > >
                                      > > Rob
                                      > >
                                      > > waring@p...
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    • Clive Lovelock
                                      Hi JP I m afraid I can t attend JALTCALL 2005 but would be interested in reading about your system. By the way, I have not forotten your request some time ago
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 21, 2005
                                        Hi JP

                                        I'm afraid I can't attend JALTCALL 2005 but would be interested in
                                        reading about your system.

                                        By the way, I have not forotten your request some time ago for materials
                                        from me. Have just been distracted by other matters, and will send them
                                        soon.

                                        CL

                                        John Paul Loucky wrote:
                                        > I totally agree with Rob's proper motivation as a foreign language teacher
                                        > to provide L2 readers with some type of understandable SIGNS regarding the
                                        > readability level of particular stories, texts or websites.
                                        > I have already done this and am doing it with Grad Eng students, tho
                                        > their vocab levels relative to native reader norms average the start of 4th
                                        > grade, same as most incoming freshmen have over the past decade at what is
                                        > regarded as best Engineering school in Kyushu.
                                        > I use 4 kinds of readability measures. I will demonstrate some of
                                        > these, as I have in the past, at JALTCALL 2005.
                                        > Rob is definitely right that both language teachers and students can
                                        > benefit immensely from knowing at least one of these ways of assessing the
                                        > level of a text they are anticipating reading. Rather than waste precious
                                        > time trying to read at a Frustration Level, we owe it to them to be able
                                        > help guide them to materials that are either at their Independent or
                                        > Instructional Levels, depending on their/our learning purposes.
                                        >
                                        > John Paul Loucky
                                        >
                                        > jploucky@...
                                        >
                                        > I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                        > the materials.
                                        >
                                        > Jpl-- OBVIOUSLY I AM TALKING ABOUT THE NEED TO MATCH BOTH OF THESE AS
                                        > CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE, BUT PROPER TAILORING DEPENDS UPON CORRECT DIAGNOSIS OR
                                        > ASSESSMENT OF BOTH TEXT LEVEL AND LEARNER'S READING LEVELS (composed of 3
                                        > types).
                                        >
                                        > I would submit that the VAST
                                        > majority of language students in the world cannot
                                        > read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                        > enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                        > Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                        > non-natives.
                                        >
                                        > It is well established that we
                                        > cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                        > of the surrounding coNtext and have a good
                                        > knowledge of the topic.
                                        >
                                        > 99% FOR INDEPENDENT READING.
                                        > 95% FOR INSTRUCTIONAL READING.
                                        > THESE ARE STANDARD DEFINITIONS IN L1 RDG LIT.
                                        >
                                        > If we give them native
                                        > materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                        > the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                        > with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                        > manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                        > course they can put it down and find something
                                        > else to read.
                                        >
                                        > So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                        > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                        > read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                        > enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                        > sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                        > type of reading not IR.
                                        >
                                        > RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                                        > IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED ONLY ONE
                                        > TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER. SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL LEVEL OF MANY IN
                                        > THIS "NEW FIELD." RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS IT "CRAZY"
                                        > EXPECTATIONS INDEED!
                                        >
                                        > Imagine a beginner level
                                        > student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                        > website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                        > language problem not a reading problem.
                                        >
                                        > I SUBMIT THAT IT IS BOTH.
                                        >
                                        > Those who
                                        > _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                        > it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                        > Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                        >
                                        > But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                        > grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                        > students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                        > levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                        >
                                        > At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                        > webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                        > gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                        > them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                        > materials.
                                        >
                                        > We have this in print for L1
                                        > (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                        > (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                        > anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                        > let's make some.
                                        >
                                        > Great ideas, Rob!
                                        >
                                        > WILL DEMONSTRATE SUCH ONLINE RDG LAB USE AT JALTCALL IF U CAN COME.
                                        >
                                        > JPL
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: Rob Waring [mailto:waring@...]
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:13 AM
                                        > To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Webpage grading scheme idea
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi
                                        >
                                        > At 7:08 PM -0800 1/16/05, juanarturo Pino wrote:
                                        >
                                        >>Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting
                                        >>was a gift to ER practitioners around the world
                                        >>that do think they are doing ER even if they use
                                        >>ungraded but authentic materials such as myself.
                                        >>ER is a teaching practice in place before the
                                        >>grading systems that we have today were designed.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Oh dear I do seem to have stirred a hornets nest.
                                        > But of course. I don't understand why you point
                                        > this out. I'm not denying the many flavours of
                                        > ER. Juan, of course reading native materials can
                                        > be called ER. There is NO QUESTION about that.
                                        > That goes for webpages as much as anything else.
                                        > But I feel that ER is a property of the READER
                                        > not the text.
                                        >
                                        > I fully agree with you Juan that IF, and there is
                                        > a BIG if there, students are able to read the
                                        > webpages smoothly then more power to them. And
                                        > sure ER (in the meaning of read a lot and widely
                                        > in the true meaning of 'extensive') HAS been
                                        > around for a long time. With L2 though ER is
                                        > often seen as something we do with graded
                                        > materials. It need not though. But as I said it
                                        > is not ER if the students have to dive into a
                                        > dictionary or get help with it. It becomes
                                        > Intensive Reading in a way. Or at best 'difficult
                                        > ER'.
                                        >
                                        > I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                        > the materials. I would submit that the VAST
                                        > majority of language students in the world cannot
                                        > read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                        > enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                        > Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                        > non-natives. It is well established that we
                                        > cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                        > of the surrounding co-text and have a good
                                        > knowledge of the topic. If we give them native
                                        > materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                        > the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                        > with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                        > manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                        > course they can put it down and find something
                                        > else to read.
                                        >
                                        > So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                        > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                        > read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                        > enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                        > sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                        > type of reading not IR. Imagine a beginner level
                                        > student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                        > website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                        > language problem not a reading problem. Those who
                                        > _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                        > it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                        > Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                        >
                                        > But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                        > grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                        > students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                        > levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                        > At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                        > webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                        > gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                        > them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                        > materials. We have this in print for L1
                                        > (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                        > (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                        > anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                        > let's make some.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>I am sure you don't really think that ER
                                        >>originated with the sale of the first simplified
                                        >>texts or the input hypothesis.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Of course not. The first people to do this died
                                        > thousands of years ago. The ancient Greeks used
                                        > to simplify texts and have 'systems' of
                                        > simplifying language to be learnt by foreigners
                                        > as did the Romans with Latin. The basic principle
                                        > is that people in EFL start with materials at or
                                        > near their level.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>So I won't pursue the matter any further. 20
                                        >>years ago the magazines that most universities
                                        >>teachers used in their reading classes (remember
                                        >>the authentic texts issue?) are now online.
                                        >>Where then do I send the students to get these
                                        >>magazines? To the newstand or the Internet? I
                                        >>am not going to sit and wait for websites
                                        >>designers to grade their texts for me.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > This is not an issue I'm talking about. Where the
                                        > materials are is not my concern. What IS my
                                        > concern is that students have access to ER
                                        > materials including readable webpages.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>If the rough, "student-centered" grading I have
                                        >>done and will continue to do is not perfect, one
                                        >>should always remember that it is students who
                                        >>are to decide if a task is really "doable" or
                                        >>not. Real life reading tasks are like that.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yes indeed. And a little sign on the way that
                                        > says what level material might can help them. It
                                        > may save them wasting valuable time.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>I know I can't read and understand a text on
                                        >>thermodynamics. My students can. They have the
                                        >>previous knowledge that I don't.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Juan, your students are obviously a very high
                                        > level. I do not deny that they can do what you
                                        > say they can. What I'm saying is that for
                                        > students who either are not like yours, or have
                                        > not reached that level, a grading scheme can help
                                        > them find suitable materials and avoid the
                                        > de-motivating search through endless pages of
                                        > noise before they can find something they can
                                        > read. There is no way that teachers can recommend
                                        > all the sites and pages students can or should
                                        > read. Therefore I suggest that a simple logo of
                                        > the text difficulty (however that is determined)
                                        > may help students save time and effort and guide
                                        > them to suitable materials. This is my motivation.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >> Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                                        >>attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready
                                        >>for it. Why do we now want the webpages to grade
                                        >>their material?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hmm. I see this as a false analogy. L1 readers
                                        > begin reading with thousands of already known
                                        > words. L2 students don't. It's comparing apples
                                        > and oranges I think.
                                        >
                                        > All the best.
                                        >
                                      • Rob Waring
                                        Juan, If you feel you need an apology, then an apology is sincerely offered. Yes I did say that it was crazy to ask students to read native level materials
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 23, 2005
                                          [ExtensiveReading] Re: WebER: Sorry I won't do it again.
                                          Juan,

                                          If you feel you need an apology, then an apology is sincerely offered.

                                          Yes I did say that it was 'crazy' to ask students to read native level materials in a fluent and extensive way. But, and this is the HUGE but that I feel was missed,  it is 'crazy'  ONLY IF it is too difficult for them. The scenario I'm thinking of is asking a beginning level reader of Arabic to read an Arabic newspaper. Or a young child to read Shakespeare. I submit that most students cannot read native materials smoothly (and if they can what on earth are they doing in class?) and thus it is 'crazy ' (read unhelpful) for those weaker students to be expected to read native materials.  But native materials ARE useful for those people whose ability is good enough for dealing with them.  (Note that I did NOT say anyone in particular was crazy, but that an action might be crazy in certain circumstances. I even emphasized the rider in my comment by underscoring the rider  "So practically speaking is is crazy to ask students who _are not ready_ for native texts to read them smoothly and fluently and with enjoyment")

                                          Juan, I repeatedly said in my response to you that I applaud what you are doing with your students who are obviously able to do what you require of them. In other words, they can do the task (reading online). I said the above in response to your question about why so few people are doing, or are excited by, web-ER. I submit that the vast majority of language students cannot handle native web materials in an enjoyable way and that is the reason teachers do not do it - simply put the material is too difficult for their students. NOTE and I repeat, those students who feel they can handle it, should be encouraged like you are doing with your students.

                                          May I ask you to re-read my posts again? I think you may see that I am trying to be constructive, not destructive, and I'm trying to get to the bottom of reasons why people are not teaching Web-ER. Juan, you and I are on the same page here. Please look for the sentences in both the posts I made where I praised what you were doing.

                                          And PLEASE keep bringing up the topic of WEB-ER we need a wider discussion of this topic.

                                          With best regards

                                          Rob

                                          At 3:53 PM +0000 1/20/05, Juan Pino Silva wrote:
                                          Rob John and all,

                                          I was about to respond to this but these two portions (of the larger
                                          piece below) are not the best example of tolerance to new or
                                          different ideas. I'm sorry I thought I was making a contribution as I
                                          have in the past but I definitely cannot tolerate abusive language. 
                                          Thus, I'd  better take my crazy and ridiculous claims somewhere else
                                          or simply shut up. Way to go guys.   
                                          Juan 

                                          -*-------------------------

                                          Rob "So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                          students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                          read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                          enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                          sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                          type of reading not IR".

                                          JPL "RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                                          IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED ONLY ONE
                                          TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER. SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL LEVEL OF
                                          MANY IN THIS "NEW FIELD." RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS
                                          IT "CRAZY" EXPECTATIONS INDEED!"

                                          ------------------

                                          --- In ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com, "John Paul Loucky"
                                          <jploucky@m...> wrote:
                                          > I totally agree with Rob's proper motivation as a foreign language
                                          teacher
                                          > to provide L2 readers with some type of understandable SIGNS
                                          regarding the
                                          > readability level of particular stories, texts or websites.
                                          >       I have already done this and am doing it with Grad Eng
                                          students, tho
                                          > their vocab levels relative to native reader norms average the
                                          start of 4th
                                          > grade, same as most incoming freshmen have over the past decade at
                                          what is
                                          > regarded as best Engineering school in Kyushu.
                                          >       I use 4 kinds of readability measures.  I will demonstrate
                                          some of
                                          > these, as I have in the past, at JALTCALL 2005. 
                                          >       Rob is definitely right that both language teachers and
                                          students can
                                          > benefit immensely from knowing at least one of these ways of
                                          assessing the
                                          > level of a text they are anticipating reading.  Rather than waste
                                          precious
                                          > time trying to read at a Frustration Level, we owe it to them to be
                                          able
                                          > help guide them to materials that are either at their Independent or
                                          > Instructional Levels, depending on their/our learning purposes.
                                          >
                                          >      John Paul Loucky

                                          >       jploucky@m...
                                          >
                                          >       I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                          > the materials.
                                          >      
                                          > Jpl--      OBVIOUSLY I AM TALKING ABOUT THE NEED TO MATCH BOTH OF THESE
                                          AS
                                          > CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE, BUT PROPER TAILORING DEPENDS UPON CORRECT
                                          DIAGNOSIS OR
                                          > ASSESSMENT OF BOTH TEXT LEVEL AND LEARNER'S READING LEVELS
                                          (composed of 3
                                          > types).
                                          >
                                          >       I would submit that the VAST
                                          > majority of language students in the world cannot
                                          > read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                          > enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                          > Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                          > non-natives.
                                          >
                                          > It is well established that we
                                          > cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                          > of the surrounding coNtext and have a good
                                          > knowledge of the topic.
                                          >
                                          >       99% FOR INDEPENDENT READING.
                                          >       95% FOR INSTRUCTIONAL READING.
                                          > THESE ARE STANDARD DEFINITIONS IN L1 RDG LIT.
                                          >
                                          >       If we give them native
                                          > materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                          > the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                          > with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                          > manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                          > course they can put it down and find something
                                          > else to read.
                                          >
                                          >       So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                          > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                          > read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                          > enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                          > sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                          > type of reading not IR.
                                          >
                                          >       RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                                          >       IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED ONLY
                                          ONE
                                          > TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER.  SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL LEVEL OF
                                          MANY IN
                                          > THIS "NEW FIELD."  RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS IT "CRAZY"
                                          > EXPECTATIONS INDEED!
                                          >
                                          >       Imagine a beginner level
                                          > student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                          > website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                          > language problem not a reading problem.
                                          >
                                          >       I SUBMIT THAT IT IS BOTH.
                                          >
                                          >       Those who
                                          > _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                          > it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                          > Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                          >
                                          >       But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                          > grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                          > students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                          > levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                          >
                                          > At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                          > webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                          > gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                          > them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                          > materials.
                                          >
                                          >       We have this in print for L1
                                          > (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                          > (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                          > anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                          > let's make some.
                                          >
                                          >       Great ideas, Rob! 
                                          >      
                                          >       WILL DEMONSTRATE SUCH ONLINE RDG LAB USE AT JALTCALL IF U CAN
                                          COME.
                                          >
                                          >       JPL     
                                          >
                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: Rob Waring [mailto:waring@p...]
                                          > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:13 AM
                                          > To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Webpage grading scheme idea
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi
                                          >
                                          > At 7:08 PM -0800 1/16/05, juanarturo Pino wrote:
                                          > >Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting
                                          > >was a gift to ER practitioners around the world
                                          > >that do think they are doing ER even if they use
                                          > >ungraded but authentic materials such as myself.
                                          > >ER is a teaching practice in place before the
                                          > >grading systems that we have today were designed.
                                          >
                                          > Oh dear I do seem to have stirred a hornets nest.
                                          > But of course. I don't understand why you point
                                          > this out. I'm not denying the many flavours of
                                          > ER. Juan, of course reading native materials can
                                          > be called ER. There is NO QUESTION about that.
                                          > That goes for webpages as much as anything else.
                                          > But I feel that ER is a property of the READER
                                          > not the text.
                                          >
                                          > I fully agree with you Juan that IF, and there is
                                          > a BIG if there, students are able to read the
                                          > webpages smoothly then more power to them. And
                                          > sure ER  (in the meaning of read a lot and widely
                                          > in the true meaning of 'extensive') HAS been
                                          > around for a long time. With L2 though ER is
                                          > often seen as something we do with graded
                                          > materials.  It need not though. But as I said it
                                          > is not ER if the students have to dive into a
                                          > dictionary or get help with it. It becomes
                                          > Intensive Reading in a way. Or at best 'difficult
                                          > ER'.
                                          >
                                          > I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                          > the materials. I would submit that the VAST
                                          > majority of language students in the world cannot
                                          > read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                          > enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                          > Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                          > non-natives. It is well established that we
                                          > cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                          > of the surrounding co-text and have a good
                                          > knowledge of the topic. If we give them native
                                          > materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                          > the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                          > with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                          > manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                          > course they can put it down and find something
                                          > else to read.
                                          >
                                          > So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                          > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                          > read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                          > enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                          > sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                          > type of reading not IR. Imagine a beginner level
                                          > student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                          > website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                          > language problem not a reading problem. Those who
                                          > _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                          > it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                          > Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                          >
                                          > But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                          > grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                          > students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                          > levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                          > At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                          > webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                          > gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                          > them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                          > materials. We have this in print for L1
                                          > (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                          > (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                          > anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                          > let's make some.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >I am sure  you don't really think that ER
                                          > >originated with the sale of the first simplified
                                          > >texts or  the input hypothesis.
                                          >
                                          > Of course not. The first people to do this died
                                          > thousands of years ago. The ancient Greeks used
                                          > to simplify texts and have 'systems' of
                                          > simplifying language to be learnt by foreigners
                                          > as did the Romans with Latin. The basic principle
                                          > is that people in EFL start with materials at or
                                          > near their level.
                                          >
                                          > >So I won't pursue the matter any further. 20
                                          > >years ago the magazines that most universities
                                          > >teachers used in their reading classes (remember
                                          > >the authentic texts issue?) are now online.
                                          > >Where then do I send the students to get these
                                          > >magazines? To the newstand or the Internet?  I
                                          > >am not going to sit and wait for websites
                                          > >designers to grade their texts for me.
                                          >
                                          > This is not an issue I'm talking about. Where the
                                          > materials are is not my concern. What IS my
                                          > concern is that students have access to ER
                                          > materials including readable webpages.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >If the rough, "student-centered" grading  I have
                                          > >done and will continue to do is not perfect, one
                                          > >should always remember that it is students who
                                          > >are to decide if a task is really "doable" or
                                          > >not.  Real life reading tasks are like that.
                                          >
                                          > Yes indeed. And a little sign on the way that
                                          > says what level material might can help them. It
                                          > may save them wasting valuable time.
                                          >
                                          > >I know I can't read and understand a  text on
                                          > >thermodynamics. My students can. They have the
                                          > >previous knowledge that I don't.
                                          >
                                          > Juan, your students are obviously a very high
                                          > level. I do not deny that they can do what you
                                          > say they can. What I'm saying is that for
                                          > students who either are not like yours, or have
                                          > not reached that level, a grading scheme can help
                                          > them find suitable materials and avoid the
                                          > de-motivating search through endless pages of
                                          > noise before they can find something they can
                                          > read. There is no way that teachers can recommend
                                          > all the sites and pages students can or should
                                          > read. Therefore I suggest that a simple logo of
                                          > the text difficulty (however that is determined)
                                          > may help students save time and effort and guide
                                          > them to suitable materials. This is my motivation.
                                          >
                                          > >  Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                                          > >attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready
                                          > >for it. Why do we now want the webpages to grade
                                          > >their material?
                                          >
                                          > Hmm. I see this as a false analogy. L1 readers
                                          > begin reading with thousands of already known
                                          > words. L2 students don't. It's comparing apples
                                          > and oranges I think.
                                          >
                                          > All the best.
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Cheers
                                          >
                                          > Rob
                                          >
                                          > waring@p...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links



                                          Yahoo! Groups Links


                                          -- 
                                          
                                          Cheers

                                          Rob

                                          waring@...
                                        • Andy Barfield
                                          Hi, This may be relevant to the discussion. It may not just be that the materials are too difficult; it could have lots to do with webpage layout, and how easy
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 26, 2005
                                            Hi,

                                            This may be relevant to the discussion. It may not just be that the materials
                                            are too difficult; it could have lots to do with webpage layout, and how easy
                                            webpages are for students to make their way around them, through them, or
                                            whatever it is you do going from one webpage to another!

                                            At ThaiTESOL a few years ago, Denise Murray talked about action research
                                            being done by some teachers in Oz into what students found difficult about
                                            reading webpages and how they went about navigating them. Don't know
                                            though if anything has been published on that or not.

                                            Cheers,

                                            Andy

                                            Rob posted <snip>:

                                            > Juan, I repeatedly said in my response to you that I applaud what you
                                            > are doing with your students who are obviously able to do what you
                                            > require of them. In other words, they can do the task (reading
                                            > online). I said the above in response to your question about why so
                                            > few people are doing, or are excited by, web-ER. I submit that the
                                            > vast majority of language students cannot handle native web materials
                                            > in an enjoyable way and that is the reason teachers do not do it -
                                            > simply put the material is too difficult for their students.
                                          • Tom Robb
                                            Hi everyone, Sorry to be slow in responding to this thread. I gave a presentation on an informal experiment I did with online extensive reading at TESOL in
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 26, 2005
                                              Hi everyone,

                                              Sorry to be slow in responding to this thread.

                                              I gave a presentation on an informal experiment I did with online
                                              extensive reading at TESOL in March of 2001. The powerpoint
                                              presentation is available here:
                                              http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~trobb/TSL2001RDG/index.htm
                                              Also, the home page for that course is still available at:

                                              http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/~trobb/read/read.html
                                              You can log on with "860006" and "9999" for the password

                                              The page has links (some of which may no longer work) to work that I
                                              deemed suitable for their level. Once logged in, if you pull down the
                                              menu at the top you can see my attempt to track their usage by having
                                              them fill in a memo concerning their reading each time they finished
                                              something. This ended up being too much work for both the students
                                              and me.

                                              Cheers,
                                              Tom
                                            • Juan Pino Silva
                                              Rob, OK Rob, Thanks. I have re-read and will respond to your posting. I will make this very short though. I have opened WEB-Extensivereading@yahoogroups.com
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 28, 2005
                                                Rob,
                                                OK Rob, Thanks. I have re-read and will respond to your posting. I
                                                will make this very short though.
                                                I have opened WEB-Extensivereading@yahoogroups.com for those who
                                                want to learn more about webER from people who have been doing
                                                extensive reading though the Internet for years. I hope you can pay
                                                us a visit sometime. You are gentleman and a scholar I respect.
                                                Sincerely,
                                                Juan

                                                --- In ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com, Rob Waring <waring@p...>
                                                wrote:
                                                > Juan,
                                                >
                                                > If you feel you need an apology, then an apology is sincerely
                                                offered.
                                                >
                                                > Yes I did say that it was 'crazy' to ask students to read native
                                                > level materials in a fluent and extensive way. But, and this is
                                                the
                                                > HUGE but that I feel was missed, it is 'crazy' ONLY IF it is too
                                                > difficult for them. The scenario I'm thinking of is asking a
                                                > beginning level reader of Arabic to read an Arabic newspaper. Or a
                                                > young child to read Shakespeare. I submit that most students
                                                cannot
                                                > read native materials smoothly (and if they can what on earth are
                                                > they doing in class?) and thus it is 'crazy ' (read unhelpful) for
                                                > those weaker students to be expected to read native materials.
                                                But
                                                > native materials ARE useful for those people whose ability is good
                                                > enough for dealing with them. (Note that I did NOT say anyone in
                                                > particular was crazy, but that an action might be crazy in certain
                                                > circumstances. I even emphasized the rider in my comment by
                                                > underscoring the rider "So practically speaking is is crazy to
                                                ask
                                                > students who _are not ready_ for native texts to read them
                                                smoothly
                                                > and fluently and with enjoyment")
                                                >
                                                > Juan, I repeatedly said in my response to you that I applaud what
                                                you
                                                > are doing with your students who are obviously able to do what you
                                                > require of them. In other words, they can do the task (reading
                                                > online). I said the above in response to your question about why
                                                so
                                                > few people are doing, or are excited by, web-ER. I submit that the
                                                > vast majority of language students cannot handle native web
                                                materials
                                                > in an enjoyable way and that is the reason teachers do not do it -
                                                > simply put the material is too difficult for their students. NOTE
                                                and
                                                > I repeat, those students who feel they can handle it, should be
                                                > encouraged like you are doing with your students.
                                                >
                                                > May I ask you to re-read my posts again? I think you may see that
                                                I
                                                > am trying to be constructive, not destructive, and I'm trying to
                                                get
                                                > to the bottom of reasons why people are not teaching Web-ER. Juan,
                                                > you and I are on the same page here. Please look for the sentences
                                                in
                                                > both the posts I made where I praised what you were doing.
                                                >
                                                > And PLEASE keep bringing up the topic of WEB-ER we need a wider
                                                > discussion of this topic.
                                                >
                                                > With best regards
                                                >
                                                > Rob
                                                >
                                                > At 3:53 PM +0000 1/20/05, Juan Pino Silva wrote:
                                                > >Rob John and all,
                                                > >
                                                > >I was about to respond to this but these two portions (of the
                                                larger
                                                > >piece below) are not the best example of tolerance to new or
                                                > >different ideas. I'm sorry I thought I was making a contribution
                                                as I
                                                > >have in the past but I definitely cannot tolerate abusive
                                                language.
                                                > >Thus, I'd better take my crazy and ridiculous claims somewhere
                                                else
                                                > >or simply shut up. Way to go guys.
                                                > >Juan
                                                > >
                                                > >-*-------------------------
                                                > >
                                                > >Rob "So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                                > >students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                                > >read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                                > >enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                                > >sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                                > >type of reading not IR".
                                                > >
                                                > >JPL "RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                                                > >IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED ONLY ONE
                                                > >TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER. SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL LEVEL OF
                                                > >MANY IN THIS "NEW FIELD." RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS
                                                > >IT "CRAZY" EXPECTATIONS INDEED!"
                                                > >
                                                > >------------------
                                                > >
                                                > >--- In ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com, "John Paul Loucky"
                                                > ><jploucky@m...> wrote:
                                                > >> I totally agree with Rob's proper motivation as a foreign
                                                language
                                                > >teacher
                                                > >> to provide L2 readers with some type of understandable SIGNS
                                                > >regarding the
                                                > >> readability level of particular stories, texts or websites.
                                                > >> I have already done this and am doing it with Grad Eng
                                                > >students, tho
                                                > >> their vocab levels relative to native reader norms average the
                                                > >start of 4th
                                                > >> grade, same as most incoming freshmen have over the past
                                                decade at
                                                > >what is
                                                > >> regarded as best Engineering school in Kyushu.
                                                > >> I use 4 kinds of readability measures. I will
                                                demonstrate
                                                > >some of
                                                > >> these, as I have in the past, at JALTCALL 2005.
                                                > > > Rob is definitely right that both language teachers and
                                                > >students can
                                                > >> benefit immensely from knowing at least one of these ways of
                                                > >assessing the
                                                > >> level of a text they are anticipating reading. Rather than
                                                waste
                                                > >precious
                                                > >> time trying to read at a Frustration Level, we owe it to them
                                                to be
                                                > >able
                                                > >> help guide them to materials that are either at their
                                                Independent or
                                                > >> Instructional Levels, depending on their/our learning purposes.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> John Paul Loucky
                                                > >>
                                                > >> jploucky@m...
                                                > >>
                                                > >> I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                                > >> the materials.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Jpl-- OBVIOUSLY I AM TALKING ABOUT THE NEED TO MATCH BOTH
                                                OF THESE
                                                > >AS
                                                > >> CLOSELY AS POSSIBLE, BUT PROPER TAILORING DEPENDS UPON CORRECT
                                                > >DIAGNOSIS OR
                                                > >> ASSESSMENT OF BOTH TEXT LEVEL AND LEARNER'S READING LEVELS
                                                > >(composed of 3
                                                > >> types).
                                                > >>
                                                > >> I would submit that the VAST
                                                > >> majority of language students in the world cannot
                                                > >> read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                                > >> enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                                > >> Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                                > >> non-natives.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> It is well established that we
                                                > >> cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                                > >> of the surrounding coNtext and have a good
                                                > >> knowledge of the topic.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> 99% FOR INDEPENDENT READING.
                                                > >> 95% FOR INSTRUCTIONAL READING.
                                                > >> THESE ARE STANDARD DEFINITIONS IN L1 RDG LIT.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> If we give them native
                                                > >> materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                                > >> the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                                > >> with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                                > >> manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                                > >> course they can put it down and find something
                                                > >> else to read.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                                > >> students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                                > >> read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                                > >> enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                                > >> sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                                > >> type of reading not IR.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> RIGHT. SO ER DOES NOT ALWAYS WORK.
                                                > >> IT'S ALSO RIDICULOUS TO PIT ER VS IR AS IF LEARNERS NEED
                                                ONLY
                                                > >ONE
                                                > >> TYPE OF READING AND NOT THE OTHER. SHOWS THE SUPERFICIAL
                                                LEVEL OF
                                                > >MANY IN
                                                > >> THIS "NEW FIELD." RIDICULOUS CLAIMS, OR AS ROB CALLS
                                                IT "CRAZY"
                                                > >> EXPECTATIONS INDEED!
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Imagine a beginner level
                                                > >> student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                                > >> website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                                > >> language problem not a reading problem.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> I SUBMIT THAT IT IS BOTH.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Those who
                                                > >> _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                                > >> it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                                > >> Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                                > >> grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                                > >> students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                                > >> levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                                > >> webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                                > >> gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                                > >> them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                                > >> materials.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> We have this in print for L1
                                                > >> (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                                > >> (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                                > >> anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                                > >> let's make some.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Great ideas, Rob!
                                                > >>
                                                > >> WILL DEMONSTRATE SUCH ONLINE RDG LAB USE AT JALTCALL IF
                                                U CAN
                                                > >COME.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> JPL
                                                > >>
                                                > >> -----Original Message-----
                                                > >> From: Rob Waring [mailto:waring@p...]
                                                > >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:13 AM
                                                > >> To: ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >> Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] Webpage grading scheme idea
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Hi
                                                > >>
                                                > >> At 7:08 PM -0800 1/16/05, juanarturo Pino wrote:
                                                > >> >Well Rob I can't say that your previous posting
                                                > >> >was a gift to ER practitioners around the world
                                                > >> >that do think they are doing ER even if they use
                                                > >> >ungraded but authentic materials such as myself.
                                                > >> >ER is a teaching practice in place before the
                                                > >> >grading systems that we have today were designed.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Oh dear I do seem to have stirred a hornets nest.
                                                > >> But of course. I don't understand why you point
                                                > >> this out. I'm not denying the many flavours of
                                                > >> ER. Juan, of course reading native materials can
                                                > >> be called ER. There is NO QUESTION about that.
                                                > > > That goes for webpages as much as anything else.
                                                > >> But I feel that ER is a property of the READER
                                                > >> not the text.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> I fully agree with you Juan that IF, and there is
                                                > >> a BIG if there, students are able to read the
                                                > >> webpages smoothly then more power to them. And
                                                > >> sure ER (in the meaning of read a lot and widely
                                                > >> in the true meaning of 'extensive') HAS been
                                                > >> around for a long time. With L2 though ER is
                                                > >> often seen as something we do with graded
                                                > >> materials. It need not though. But as I said it
                                                > >> is not ER if the students have to dive into a
                                                > >> dictionary or get help with it. It becomes
                                                > >> Intensive Reading in a way. Or at best 'difficult
                                                > >> ER'.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> I'm talking about the student reading level not
                                                > >> the materials. I would submit that the VAST
                                                > >> majority of language students in the world cannot
                                                > >> read native material smoothly and fluently with
                                                > >> enjoyment (the most common definition of ER).
                                                > >> Therefore native materials are often noise to
                                                > >> non-natives. It is well established that we
                                                > >> cannot read smoothly unless we know at least 95%
                                                > >> of the surrounding co-text and have a good
                                                > >> knowledge of the topic. If we give them native
                                                > >> materials (I'll avoid the use of authentic here)
                                                > >> the students have two choices. a) read it slowly
                                                > >> with a dictionary or in some other intensive
                                                > >> manner or b) ask for help. Alternatively of
                                                > >> course they can put it down and find something
                                                > >> else to read.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> So practically speaking is is crazy to ask
                                                > >> students who _are not ready_ for native texts to
                                                > >> read them smoothly and fluently and with
                                                > >> enjoyment. They can read them intensively I'm
                                                > >> sure, but we are discussing the speedy enjoyable
                                                > >> type of reading not IR. Imagine a beginner level
                                                > >> student of Arabic trying to read an online Arabic
                                                > >> website - impossible. They simply can't! It's a
                                                > >> language problem not a reading problem. Those who
                                                > >> _can_ do it, or are near enough to be able to do
                                                > >> it, should be encouraged as much as possible as
                                                > >> Juan is doing. I applaud this.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> But the reason I suggested we might want a
                                                > >> grading scheme for webpages is NOT for the
                                                > >> students but for the tens of millions at lower
                                                > >> levels who need stepping into web=page reading.
                                                > >> At the moment as far as I know there is no
                                                > >> webpage reading scheme that takes students
                                                > >> gradually through levels of difficulty that allow
                                                > >> them eventually to read ungraded webpage
                                                > >> materials. We have this in print for L1
                                                > >> (children's through adult materials) and L2
                                                > >> (graded reading materials) but we don't have
                                                > >> anything for webpages. And this is my point.
                                                > >> let's make some.
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> >I am sure you don't really think that ER
                                                > >> >originated with the sale of the first simplified
                                                > >> >texts or the input hypothesis.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Of course not. The first people to do this died
                                                > >> thousands of years ago. The ancient Greeks used
                                                > >> to simplify texts and have 'systems' of
                                                > >> simplifying language to be learnt by foreigners
                                                > >> as did the Romans with Latin. The basic principle
                                                > >> is that people in EFL start with materials at or
                                                > >> near their level.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> >So I won't pursue the matter any further. 20
                                                > >> >years ago the magazines that most universities
                                                > >> >teachers used in their reading classes (remember
                                                > >> >the authentic texts issue?) are now online.
                                                > >> >Where then do I send the students to get these
                                                > >> >magazines? To the newstand or the Internet? I
                                                > >> >am not going to sit and wait for websites
                                                > >> >designers to grade their texts for me.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> This is not an issue I'm talking about. Where the
                                                > >> materials are is not my concern. What IS my
                                                > >> concern is that students have access to ER
                                                > >> materials including readable webpages.
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> >If the rough, "student-centered" grading I have
                                                > >> >done and will continue to do is not perfect, one
                                                > >> >should always remember that it is students who
                                                > >> >are to decide if a task is really "doable" or
                                                > >> >not. Real life reading tasks are like that.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Yes indeed. And a little sign on the way that
                                                > >> says what level material might can help them. It
                                                > >> may save them wasting valuable time.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> >I know I can't read and understand a text on
                                                > >> >thermodynamics. My students can. They have the
                                                > >> >previous knowledge that I don't.
                                                > > >
                                                > >> Juan, your students are obviously a very high
                                                > >> level. I do not deny that they can do what you
                                                > >> say they can. What I'm saying is that for
                                                > >> students who either are not like yours, or have
                                                > >> not reached that level, a grading scheme can help
                                                > >> them find suitable materials and avoid the
                                                > >> de-motivating search through endless pages of
                                                > >> noise before they can find something they can
                                                > >> read. There is no way that teachers can recommend
                                                > >> all the sites and pages students can or should
                                                > >> read. Therefore I suggest that a simple logo of
                                                > >> the text difficulty (however that is determined)
                                                > >> may help students save time and effort and guide
                                                > >> them to suitable materials. This is my motivation.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> > Winnie the Pooh never had a grading system
                                                > >> >attached to it. Mom's know when a child is ready
                                                > >> >for it. Why do we now want the webpages to grade
                                                > >> >their material?
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Hmm. I see this as a false analogy. L1 readers
                                                > >> begin reading with thousands of already known
                                                > >> words. L2 students don't. It's comparing apples
                                                > >> and oranges I think.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> All the best.
                                                > >>
                                                > >> --
                                                > >> Cheers
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Rob
                                                > >>
                                                > >> waring@p...
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >>
                                                > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                > >
                                                > >To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                >
                                                ><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ExtensiveReading/>http://groups.yahoo
                                                .com/group/ExtensiveReading/
                                                > >
                                                > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > ><mailto:ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                                                subject=Unsubscribe>ExtensiveReading-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                > >
                                                > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                                > ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --
                                                > Cheers
                                                >
                                                > Rob
                                                >
                                                > waring@p...
                                              • gradedreading
                                                Following the discussion of the availability of L2 reading materials I thought I d remind everyone about my EFL Reading site
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jan 29, 2005
                                                  Following the discussion of the availability of L2 reading
                                                  materials I thought I'd remind everyone about my EFL Reading
                                                  site (www.gradedreading.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk) which offers
                                                  free graded reading materials. Traffic grew quite dramatically in
                                                  2004 and reached 250,000 hits-a-month in November.

                                                  I've been finishing a book and haven't had time to add much in
                                                  the last few months but hope to rectify this soon. Anyone looking
                                                  for a showcase for good quality reading materials please get in
                                                  touch.

                                                  Regards to all

                                                  Kieran McGovern

                                                  Editor, EFL Reading
                                                  www.gradedreading.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
                                                • Charles Jannuzzi
                                                  Why don t we just try Stern s axes of orientation ? ER if it brings about language acquisition is: --extensive not intensive (I know this is partly circular,
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Feb 8, 2005
                                                    Why don't we just try Stern's 'axes of orientation'?

                                                    ER if it brings about language acquisition is:

                                                    --extensive not intensive (I know this is partly circular,
                                                    but it works if you can see the contrast between extensive
                                                    vs. intensive in language learning and teaching--ER could
                                                    bring about extensive input in support of acquisition, to
                                                    invoke Krashen here)

                                                    --indirect not direct
                                                    --inductive not deductive
                                                    --implicit not explicit
                                                    --intralingual not cross-lingual

                                                    also it's

                                                    --learning centred
                                                    and
                                                    --learner centred

                                                    In cognitive and psycholinguistic terms, though, I would say
                                                    it is largely analogous to extensive listening through media
                                                    such as material on tape or CD or television or watching a
                                                    DVD in the L2 (though the latter types introduce visual, but
                                                    non-linguistic elements that complicate perception and
                                                    comprehension).

                                                    It could take on language planning aspects, such as the
                                                    grading of texts, and that seems to be a major concern of
                                                    this list, though it should be pointed out that the grading
                                                    of texts goes WAY back in the academic history of ELT. And
                                                    wasn't it one of those slogans in communicative approaches
                                                    to 'grade the task and not the text'?

                                                    Charles Jannuzi
                                                    www.literacyacrosscultures.org
                                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.