Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [ExtensiveReading] ER weekend lecture in Osaka. announcement.

Expand Messages
  • Lynn Ellingwood
    Good to see what s out there in the world. Lynn Hi all Sorry for the local slant of this but, we have over 20 members in the Osaka area. For those of us in
    Message 1 of 21 , Feb 26, 2004
      Re: [ExtensiveReading] ER  weekend lecture in Osaka. announcement. Good to see what's out there in the world.  Lynn

      Hi all

      Sorry for the local slant of this but, we have over 20 members in the Osaka area.

      For those of us in the Osaka area, Japan, or those who missed the lecture in January in Tokyo.
    • Clive Lovelock
      Dear David Tracy s query and your response reminded mean that I ve been meaning to ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember when I was
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 1, 2004
        Dear David

        Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning to
        ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember when I
        was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
        priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into a
        favourable alignment as they say in astrology.

        I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
        distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've acquired
        various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children have
        grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but are
        in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from elementary
        school to teenage. Any suggestions?

        Clive

        David R. Hill wrote:
        > Am neither on holiday nor asleep not hunting if you recognise the Elijah's
        > jibes on Mout Carmel!
        >
        > Yes, Julian has said very much what I would say in reply. Readability level
        > depends on much more than vocabulary, different series' lists of the first
        > 300 or 500 words not being very important when it is accepted practice to
        > include words outside the list if they are needed by the subject matter and
        > can be glossed by text or illustration.
        >
        > A further point is that titles are not uniform within one stage of a series.
        > I used to take this into account and assign individual titles to a higher or
        > lower level than the majority. This proved administratively inconvenient
        > and implied that assigning a level is a more exact science than it really
        > is.
        >
        > I offer the EPER table of levels and series as a useful guide and starting
        > point, which has worked over time. There are many fewer series than there
        > used to be and the ones that remain are much more similar to each other than
        > they used to be. Macmillan Guided Readers and Penguin Readers Level 1 are
        > now the odd ones out. I suspect also that Cambridge English Readers are
        > easier than the currently assigned EPER level, partly because of style and
        > partly the simpler content. If that proves to be the case for your
        > students, then you can either keep them as simpler titles at that level or
        > bring them down a level. That is your prerogative.
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "tracy cramer" <tracy_cramer@...>
        > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 4:59 AM
        > Subject: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
        >
        >
        >
        >>Thanks Julian, that's a very good point regarding
        >>readability. There are a lot of elements other than
        >>headwords.
        >>
        >>(I did put together a chart based on number of
        >>headwords yesterday. If anyone is intereseted, let me
        >>know, and I'll send it to you).
        >>
        >>Best, tracy
        >>
        >>Message: 2
        >> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:17:11 +0900
        >> From: Julian Bamford <bamford@...>
        >>Subject: EPER levels
        >>
        >>Tracy writes: "[in terms of comparative word counts]
        >>the EPER system
        >>seems way
        >>
        >>>off. Can anyone tell me if I am reading the EPER
        >>
        >>chart
        >>
        >>>incorrectly? Or if I should just devise my own
        >>
        >>system?"
        >>
        >>By all means devise your own system if you think it
        >>would be an
        >>improvement, or to suit your particular program, but I
        >>don't think you
        >>can
        >>do better than the 9 EPER levels for integrating the
        >>different
        >>publishers'
        >>series. Vocabulary is a good, rough indicator, but
        >>there is much more
        >>to
        >>readability than vocabulary level (--other important
        >>elements are the
        >>smoothness of the writing; other language and
        >>structure controls; the
        >>length of the book; the support of illustrations, as
        >>in comic strip vs.
        >>extended text; size of font). EPER takes all these
        >>into consideration
        >>when
        >>assigning books to a readability level which is why a
        >>series from one
        >>publisher might be at an easier EPER level than a
        >>series from another
        >>publisher that has a lower vocabulary level.
        >>To give two examples of how factors other than
        >>vocabulary impact
        >>EPER levels: EPER puts Oxford Bookworm Starters in
        >>Level G or Level F
        >>according to whether they are extended text or comic
        >>strip format--even
        >>though the language control is the same for all
        >>Starters. And
        >>Macmillan
        >>Guided Readers Elementary readers are in EPER Levels F
        >>or E according
        >>the
        >>length of the book.
        >>J
        >>
        >>
        >>__________________________________
        >>Do you Yahoo!?
        >>Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
        >>http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>Yahoo! Groups Links
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • David R. Hill
        Dear Clive I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS worked quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B up. I
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 1, 2004
          Dear Clive

          I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS worked
          quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B up. I
          used them and the equivalent from UK publishers in preference to graded
          readers at Level A and X, and hoped that they would progress up through
          teenage fiction to adult fiction.

          At level B there are still some graded reders that are aimed at chldren or
          teenagers. Above that they are all much more adult and entirely suitable
          for Senior Secondary and Tertiary. The problem for them is how to bridge
          the undoubgted gap between level X and adult unsimplified (whichare usually
          very long and full of difficult allusions).

          There is unfortunately no world-wide equivlanet of Macmillan's Pacesetters
          forAfrica which are unsimplified and about 150 pages. The nearest is Mills
          and Boon, which are not to be dismissed out of hand, expecially for girls.
          Most NNS teachers in Malaysia attributed their skill in English entirely to
          M&B!!

          Otherwise it is a trial and error process using titles like
          Sherlock Holmes
          The Pearl
          39 Steps
          detective stories
          etc

          Short stories get round the big problem of length but do not allow the
          learner to get stuck into a story that lasts a long time.

          Hope this clarifies things a bit.

          Best wishes.

          David

          PS Am glad the Lord's Day Resistance Army was not around in Uganda in our
          day. They seem to be utterly evil.

          ---- Original Message -----
          From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
          To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:26 AM
          Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels


          > Dear David
          >
          > Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning to
          > ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember when I
          > was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
          > priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into a
          > favourable alignment as they say in astrology.
          >
          > I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
          > distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've acquired
          > various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children have
          > grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but are
          > in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from elementary
          > school to teenage. Any suggestions?
          >
          > Clive
          >
          > David R. Hill wrote:
          > > Am neither on holiday nor asleep not hunting if you recognise the
          Elijah's
          > > jibes on Mout Carmel!
          > >
          > > Yes, Julian has said very much what I would say in reply. Readability
          level
          > > depends on much more than vocabulary, different series' lists of the
          first
          > > 300 or 500 words not being very important when it is accepted practice
          to
          > > include words outside the list if they are needed by the subject matter
          and
          > > can be glossed by text or illustration.
          > >
          > > A further point is that titles are not uniform within one stage of a
          series.
          > > I used to take this into account and assign individual titles to a
          higher or
          > > lower level than the majority. This proved administratively
          inconvenient
          > > and implied that assigning a level is a more exact science than it
          really
          > > is.
          > >
          > > I offer the EPER table of levels and series as a useful guide and
          starting
          > > point, which has worked over time. There are many fewer series than
          there
          > > used to be and the ones that remain are much more similar to each other
          than
          > > they used to be. Macmillan Guided Readers and Penguin Readers Level 1
          are
          > > now the odd ones out. I suspect also that Cambridge English Readers are
          > > easier than the currently assigned EPER level, partly because of style
          and
          > > partly the simpler content. If that proves to be the case for your
          > > students, then you can either keep them as simpler titles at that level
          or
          > > bring them down a level. That is your prerogative.
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "tracy cramer" <tracy_cramer@...>
          > > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 4:59 AM
          > > Subject: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >>Thanks Julian, that's a very good point regarding
          > >>readability. There are a lot of elements other than
          > >>headwords.
          > >>
          > >>(I did put together a chart based on number of
          > >>headwords yesterday. If anyone is intereseted, let me
          > >>know, and I'll send it to you).
          > >>
          > >>Best, tracy
          > >>
          > >>Message: 2
          > >> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:17:11 +0900
          > >> From: Julian Bamford <bamford@...>
          > >>Subject: EPER levels
          > >>
          > >>Tracy writes: "[in terms of comparative word counts]
          > >>the EPER system
          > >>seems way
          > >>
          > >>>off. Can anyone tell me if I am reading the EPER
          > >>
          > >>chart
          > >>
          > >>>incorrectly? Or if I should just devise my own
          > >>
          > >>system?"
          > >>
          > >>By all means devise your own system if you think it
          > >>would be an
          > >>improvement, or to suit your particular program, but I
          > >>don't think you
          > >>can
          > >>do better than the 9 EPER levels for integrating the
          > >>different
          > >>publishers'
          > >>series. Vocabulary is a good, rough indicator, but
          > >>there is much more
          > >>to
          > >>readability than vocabulary level (--other important
          > >>elements are the
          > >>smoothness of the writing; other language and
          > >>structure controls; the
          > >>length of the book; the support of illustrations, as
          > >>in comic strip vs.
          > >>extended text; size of font). EPER takes all these
          > >>into consideration
          > >>when
          > >>assigning books to a readability level which is why a
          > >>series from one
          > >>publisher might be at an easier EPER level than a
          > >>series from another
          > >>publisher that has a lower vocabulary level.
          > >>To give two examples of how factors other than
          > >>vocabulary impact
          > >>EPER levels: EPER puts Oxford Bookworm Starters in
          > >>Level G or Level F
          > >>according to whether they are extended text or comic
          > >>strip format--even
          > >>though the language control is the same for all
          > >>Starters. And
          > >>Macmillan
          > >>Guided Readers Elementary readers are in EPER Levels F
          > >>or E according
          > >>the
          > >>length of the book.
          > >>J
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>__________________________________
          > >>Do you Yahoo!?
          > >>Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
          > >>http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Clive Lovelock
          Dear David Thank you for your reply. Either I didn t express myself clearly or you need to read my message more intensively! My request is for help in grading
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 3, 2004
            Dear David

            Thank you for your reply. Either I didn't express myself clearly or you
            need to read my message more intensively! My request is for help in
            grading books at the top two levels that aren't covered by your
            publishers' series chart. Can you supply any criteria for deciding if a
            book is level A or X or lower, or is it just something you've developed
            a feel for, which would involve you writing a book to try to explain? If
            the latter, I'll quite understand your reluctance to respond, but a
            rough guide would be great.

            Clive

            David R. Hill wrote:
            > Dear Clive
            >
            > I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS worked
            > quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B up. I
            > used them and the equivalent from UK publishers in preference to graded
            > readers at Level A and X, and hoped that they would progress up through
            > teenage fiction to adult fiction.
            >
            > At level B there are still some graded reders that are aimed at chldren or
            > teenagers. Above that they are all much more adult and entirely suitable
            > for Senior Secondary and Tertiary. The problem for them is how to bridge
            > the undoubgted gap between level X and adult unsimplified (whichare usually
            > very long and full of difficult allusions).
            >
            > There is unfortunately no world-wide equivlanet of Macmillan's Pacesetters
            > forAfrica which are unsimplified and about 150 pages. The nearest is Mills
            > and Boon, which are not to be dismissed out of hand, expecially for girls.
            > Most NNS teachers in Malaysia attributed their skill in English entirely to
            > M&B!!
            >
            > Otherwise it is a trial and error process using titles like
            > Sherlock Holmes
            > The Pearl
            > 39 Steps
            > detective stories
            > etc
            >
            > Short stories get round the big problem of length but do not allow the
            > learner to get stuck into a story that lasts a long time.
            >
            > Hope this clarifies things a bit.
            >
            > Best wishes.
            >
            > David
            >
            > PS Am glad the Lord's Day Resistance Army was not around in Uganda in our
            > day. They seem to be utterly evil.
            >
            > ---- Original Message -----
            > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
            > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:26 AM
            > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
            >
            >
            >
            >>Dear David
            >>
            >>Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning to
            >>ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember when I
            >>was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
            >>priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into a
            >>favourable alignment as they say in astrology.
            >>
            >>I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
            >>distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've acquired
            >>various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children have
            >>grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but are
            >>in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from elementary
            >>school to teenage. Any suggestions?
            >>
            >>Clive
            >>
          • David R. Hill
            Clive, I see what you are after. But what sort of books are you trying to assign to levels A or X? In Malaysia we developed a three-stage level U for adudlt
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 3, 2004
              Clive,

              I see what you are after. But what sort of books are you trying to assign
              to levels A or X?

              In Malaysia we developed a three-stage level U for adudlt unsimplified books
              to be tackled after Level X.

              For Hong Kong I classified children's literature at levels B-X according to
              the length, complexity of the story and style of writing in a sort of global
              hunch as to the overall readability compared to the standard graded readers.

              But the acid test is how the students find them.

              Best wishes

              David


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
              To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:46 AM
              Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels


              > Dear David
              >
              > Thank you for your reply. Either I didn't express myself clearly or you
              > need to read my message more intensively! My request is for help in
              > grading books at the top two levels that aren't covered by your
              > publishers' series chart. Can you supply any criteria for deciding if a
              > book is level A or X or lower, or is it just something you've developed
              > a feel for, which would involve you writing a book to try to explain? If
              > the latter, I'll quite understand your reluctance to respond, but a
              > rough guide would be great.
              >
              > Clive
              >
              > David R. Hill wrote:
              > > Dear Clive
              > >
              > > I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS
              worked
              > > quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B up.
              I
              > > used them and the equivalent from UK publishers in preference to graded
              > > readers at Level A and X, and hoped that they would progress up through
              > > teenage fiction to adult fiction.
              > >
              > > At level B there are still some graded reders that are aimed at chldren
              or
              > > teenagers. Above that they are all much more adult and entirely
              suitable
              > > for Senior Secondary and Tertiary. The problem for them is how to
              bridge
              > > the undoubgted gap between level X and adult unsimplified (whichare
              usually
              > > very long and full of difficult allusions).
              > >
              > > There is unfortunately no world-wide equivlanet of Macmillan's
              Pacesetters
              > > forAfrica which are unsimplified and about 150 pages. The nearest is
              Mills
              > > and Boon, which are not to be dismissed out of hand, expecially for
              girls.
              > > Most NNS teachers in Malaysia attributed their skill in English entirely
              to
              > > M&B!!
              > >
              > > Otherwise it is a trial and error process using titles like
              > > Sherlock Holmes
              > > The Pearl
              > > 39 Steps
              > > detective stories
              > > etc
              > >
              > > Short stories get round the big problem of length but do not allow the
              > > learner to get stuck into a story that lasts a long time.
              > >
              > > Hope this clarifies things a bit.
              > >
              > > Best wishes.
              > >
              > > David
              > >
              > > PS Am glad the Lord's Day Resistance Army was not around in Uganda in
              our
              > > day. They seem to be utterly evil.
              > >
              > > ---- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
              > > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:26 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >>Dear David
              > >>
              > >>Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning to
              > >>ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember when I
              > >>was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
              > >>priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into a
              > >>favourable alignment as they say in astrology.
              > >>
              > >>I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
              > >>distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've acquired
              > >>various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children have
              > >>grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but are
              > >>in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from elementary
              > >>school to teenage. Any suggestions?
              > >>
              > >>Clive
              > >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Timothy TAKEMOTO
              Apparently there is software for Mac computers at least that automatically calculates reading level. How good is this? http://eigodaigaku.com Tel Work 083 933
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 3, 2004
                Apparently there is software for Mac computers at least that automatically
                calculates reading level. How good is this?

                http://eigodaigaku.com
                Tel Work 083 933 5555
                Home 083 922 6778
                Mobile 090 9588 3270
                Mail Home timtak@...
                Work tim@...
                Both timothy@...
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "David R. Hill" <Eper.Enquiries@...>
                To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:25 PM
                Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels


                > Clive,
                >
                > I see what you are after. But what sort of books are you trying to assign
                > to levels A or X?
                >
                > In Malaysia we developed a three-stage level U for adudlt unsimplified books
                > to be tackled after Level X.
                >
                > For Hong Kong I classified children's literature at levels B-X according to
                > the length, complexity of the story and style of writing in a sort of global
                > hunch as to the overall readability compared to the standard graded readers.
                >
                > But the acid test is how the students find them.
                >
                > Best wishes
                >
                > David
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:46 AM
                > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                >
                >
                > > Dear David
                > >
                > > Thank you for your reply. Either I didn't express myself clearly or you
                > > need to read my message more intensively! My request is for help in
                > > grading books at the top two levels that aren't covered by your
                > > publishers' series chart. Can you supply any criteria for deciding if a
                > > book is level A or X or lower, or is it just something you've developed
                > > a feel for, which would involve you writing a book to try to explain? If
                > > the latter, I'll quite understand your reluctance to respond, but a
                > > rough guide would be great.
                > >
                > > Clive
                > >
                > > David R. Hill wrote:
                > > > Dear Clive
                > > >
                > > > I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS
                > worked
                > > > quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B up.
                > I
                > > > used them and the equivalent from UK publishers in preference to graded
                > > > readers at Level A and X, and hoped that they would progress up through
                > > > teenage fiction to adult fiction.
                > > >
                > > > At level B there are still some graded reders that are aimed at chldren
                > or
                > > > teenagers. Above that they are all much more adult and entirely
                > suitable
                > > > for Senior Secondary and Tertiary. The problem for them is how to
                > bridge
                > > > the undoubgted gap between level X and adult unsimplified (whichare
                > usually
                > > > very long and full of difficult allusions).
                > > >
                > > > There is unfortunately no world-wide equivlanet of Macmillan's
                > Pacesetters
                > > > forAfrica which are unsimplified and about 150 pages. The nearest is
                > Mills
                > > > and Boon, which are not to be dismissed out of hand, expecially for
                > girls.
                > > > Most NNS teachers in Malaysia attributed their skill in English entirely
                > to
                > > > M&B!!
                > > >
                > > > Otherwise it is a trial and error process using titles like
                > > > Sherlock Holmes
                > > > The Pearl
                > > > 39 Steps
                > > > detective stories
                > > > etc
                > > >
                > > > Short stories get round the big problem of length but do not allow the
                > > > learner to get stuck into a story that lasts a long time.
                > > >
                > > > Hope this clarifies things a bit.
                > > >
                > > > Best wishes.
                > > >
                > > > David
                > > >
                > > > PS Am glad the Lord's Day Resistance Army was not around in Uganda in
                > our
                > > > day. They seem to be utterly evil.
                > > >
                > > > ---- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                > > > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:26 AM
                > > > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >>Dear David
                > > >>
                > > >>Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning to
                > > >>ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember when I
                > > >>was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
                > > >>priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into a
                > > >>favourable alignment as they say in astrology.
                > > >>
                > > >>I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
                > > >>distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've acquired
                > > >>various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children have
                > > >>grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but are
                > > >>in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from elementary
                > > >>school to teenage. Any suggestions?
                > > >>
                > > >>Clive
                > > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • David R. Hill
                I do not know. It will grade text rather than readability of a book which involves criteria such as length, aspects of content and pagelayout. David Hill ...
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 3, 2004
                  I do not know. It will grade text rather than readability of a book which
                  involves criteria such as length, aspects of content and pagelayout.

                  David Hill


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Timothy TAKEMOTO" <nospam2@...>
                  To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 12:41 PM
                  Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels


                  > Apparently there is software for Mac computers at least that automatically
                  > calculates reading level. How good is this?
                  >
                  > http://eigodaigaku.com
                  > Tel Work 083 933 5555
                  > Home 083 922 6778
                  > Mobile 090 9588 3270
                  > Mail Home timtak@...
                  > Work tim@...
                  > Both timothy@...
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "David R. Hill" <Eper.Enquiries@...>
                  > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:25 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                  >
                  >
                  > > Clive,
                  > >
                  > > I see what you are after. But what sort of books are you trying to
                  assign
                  > > to levels A or X?
                  > >
                  > > In Malaysia we developed a three-stage level U for adudlt unsimplified
                  books
                  > > to be tackled after Level X.
                  > >
                  > > For Hong Kong I classified children's literature at levels B-X according
                  to
                  > > the length, complexity of the story and style of writing in a sort of
                  global
                  > > hunch as to the overall readability compared to the standard graded
                  readers.
                  > >
                  > > But the acid test is how the students find them.
                  > >
                  > > Best wishes
                  > >
                  > > David
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                  > > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:46 AM
                  > > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Dear David
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank you for your reply. Either I didn't express myself clearly or
                  you
                  > > > need to read my message more intensively! My request is for help in
                  > > > grading books at the top two levels that aren't covered by your
                  > > > publishers' series chart. Can you supply any criteria for deciding if
                  a
                  > > > book is level A or X or lower, or is it just something you've
                  developed
                  > > > a feel for, which would involve you writing a book to try to explain?
                  If
                  > > > the latter, I'll quite understand your reluctance to respond, but a
                  > > > rough guide would be great.
                  > > >
                  > > > Clive
                  > > >
                  > > > David R. Hill wrote:
                  > > > > Dear Clive
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS
                  > > worked
                  > > > > quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B
                  up.
                  > > I
                  > > > > used them and the equivalent from UK publishers in preference to
                  graded
                  > > > > readers at Level A and X, and hoped that they would progress up
                  through
                  > > > > teenage fiction to adult fiction.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > At level B there are still some graded reders that are aimed at
                  chldren
                  > > or
                  > > > > teenagers. Above that they are all much more adult and entirely
                  > > suitable
                  > > > > for Senior Secondary and Tertiary. The problem for them is how to
                  > > bridge
                  > > > > the undoubgted gap between level X and adult unsimplified (whichare
                  > > usually
                  > > > > very long and full of difficult allusions).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > There is unfortunately no world-wide equivlanet of Macmillan's
                  > > Pacesetters
                  > > > > forAfrica which are unsimplified and about 150 pages. The nearest
                  is
                  > > Mills
                  > > > > and Boon, which are not to be dismissed out of hand, expecially for
                  > > girls.
                  > > > > Most NNS teachers in Malaysia attributed their skill in English
                  entirely
                  > > to
                  > > > > M&B!!
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Otherwise it is a trial and error process using titles like
                  > > > > Sherlock Holmes
                  > > > > The Pearl
                  > > > > 39 Steps
                  > > > > detective stories
                  > > > > etc
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Short stories get round the big problem of length but do not allow
                  the
                  > > > > learner to get stuck into a story that lasts a long time.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hope this clarifies things a bit.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Best wishes.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > David
                  > > > >
                  > > > > PS Am glad the Lord's Day Resistance Army was not around in Uganda
                  in
                  > > our
                  > > > > day. They seem to be utterly evil.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ---- Original Message -----
                  > > > > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                  > > > > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:26 AM
                  > > > > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >>Dear David
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning
                  to
                  > > > >>ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember
                  when I
                  > > > >>was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
                  > > > >>priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into
                  a
                  > > > >>favourable alignment as they say in astrology.
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
                  > > > >>distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've
                  acquired
                  > > > >>various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children
                  have
                  > > > >>grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but
                  are
                  > > > >>in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from
                  elementary
                  > > > >>school to teenage. Any suggestions?
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >>Clive
                  > > > >>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Clive Lovelock
                  David We seem to have been writing at cross-purposes. I assumed you knew my students are university students, so I didn t mention it, but the mention of books
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 4, 2004
                    David

                    We seem to have been writing at cross-purposes. I assumed you knew my
                    students are university students, so I didn't mention it, but the
                    mention of books for younger NS kids threw you off the scent.

                    Many of our students come to as at EPER level G, and a few are even
                    lower - not yet ready for ER, therefore, in addition to the regular
                    publishers' graded readers, which appear on your levels chart, we also
                    provide books for develping literacy in young NS kids - particularly
                    ones in the Ladybird "Read It Yourself" (mostly level G), "Favourite
                    Tales" series, ( which I've put at Level E - linguistically higher than
                    that , but loads of v.g. illustrations), and the Ladybird Children's
                    Classics series (Level C or B?).

                    This in turn has led to some of my (non-Japanese) teachers of English
                    bringing in more difficult children's literature for native speakers,
                    which their kids have deiscarded. Some of these are for quite young
                    kids, but in very sophisticated language - like the Beatrix Potter
                    "Peter Rabbit" stories, A.A. Milne's "Now We Are Six" poetry anthology
                    and Nick Butterworth's tales of Percy the park keeper. I've got an
                    anthology of stories called "More Bedtime Tales" published by Cavendish
                    House, London (no author's name) (UK upper primary level) and an "Archie
                    Andrews" comic book at about the same age level; some "Babysitters Club"
                    stories for teenagers; Roald Dahl's "The Twits" and "The Giraffe and the
                    Pelly & Me" and "The Midnight Fox" by Betsy Byars. These books are all
                    obviously unsuitable for our lower level students, being linguistically
                    too difficult, but a lot of our (female) students are very interested in
                    children's literature, and some of them would find these books fun to
                    read, even though challenging. I imagine you're familiar with quite a
                    few of these. I'd like to know where to fit them on your scale.

                    Sorry to have been so inexplicit previously.

                    Clive

                    David R. Hill wrote:
                    > Clive,
                    >
                    > I see what you are after. But what sort of books are you trying to assign
                    > to levels A or X?
                    >
                    > In Malaysia we developed a three-stage level U for adudlt unsimplified books
                    > to be tackled after Level X.
                    >
                    > For Hong Kong I classified children's literature at levels B-X according to
                    > the length, complexity of the story and style of writing in a sort of global
                    > hunch as to the overall readability compared to the standard graded readers.
                    >
                    > But the acid test is how the students find them.
                    >
                    > Best wishes
                    >
                    > David
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                    > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:46 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Dear David
                    >>
                    >>Thank you for your reply. Either I didn't express myself clearly or you
                    >>need to read my message more intensively! My request is for help in
                    >>grading books at the top two levels that aren't covered by your
                    >>publishers' series chart. Can you supply any criteria for deciding if a
                    >>book is level A or X or lower, or is it just something you've developed
                    >>a feel for, which would involve you writing a book to try to explain? If
                    >>the latter, I'll quite understand your reluctance to respond, but a
                    >>rough guide would be great.
                    >>
                    >>Clive
                    >>
                    >>David R. Hill wrote:
                    >>
                    >>>Dear Clive
                    >>>
                    >>>I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS
                    >>
                    > worked
                    >
                    >>>quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B up.
                    >>
                    > I
                    >
                    >>>used them and the equivalent from UK publishers in preference to graded
                    >>>readers at Level A and X, and hoped that they would progress up through
                    >>>teenage fiction to adult fiction.
                    >>>
                    >>>At level B there are still some graded reders that are aimed at chldren
                    >>
                    > or
                    >
                    >>>teenagers. Above that they are all much more adult and entirely
                    >>
                    > suitable
                    >
                    >>>for Senior Secondary and Tertiary. The problem for them is how to
                    >>
                    > bridge
                    >
                    >>>the undoubgted gap between level X and adult unsimplified (whichare
                    >>
                    > usually
                    >
                    >>>very long and full of difficult allusions).
                    >>>
                    >>>There is unfortunately no world-wide equivlanet of Macmillan's
                    >>
                    > Pacesetters
                    >
                    >>>forAfrica which are unsimplified and about 150 pages. The nearest is
                    >>
                    > Mills
                    >
                    >>>and Boon, which are not to be dismissed out of hand, expecially for
                    >>
                    > girls.
                    >
                    >>>Most NNS teachers in Malaysia attributed their skill in English entirely
                    >>
                    > to
                    >
                    >>>M&B!!
                    >>>
                    >>>Otherwise it is a trial and error process using titles like
                    >>>Sherlock Holmes
                    >>>The Pearl
                    >>>39 Steps
                    >>>detective stories
                    >>>etc
                    >>>
                    >>>Short stories get round the big problem of length but do not allow the
                    >>>learner to get stuck into a story that lasts a long time.
                    >>>
                    >>>Hope this clarifies things a bit.
                    >>>
                    >>>Best wishes.
                    >>>
                    >>>David
                    >>>
                    >>>PS Am glad the Lord's Day Resistance Army was not around in Uganda in
                    >>
                    > our
                    >
                    >>>day. They seem to be utterly evil.
                    >>>
                    >>>---- Original Message -----
                    >>>From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                    >>>To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                    >>>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:26 AM
                    >>>Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >>>>Dear David
                    >>>>
                    >>>>Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning to
                    >>>>ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember when I
                    >>>>was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
                    >>>>priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into a
                    >>>>favourable alignment as they say in astrology.
                    >>>>
                    >>>>I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
                    >>>>distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've acquired
                    >>>>various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children have
                    >>>>grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but are
                    >>>>in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from elementary
                    >>>>school to teenage. Any suggestions?
                    >>>>
                    >>>>Clive
                    >>>>
                    >>>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • EPER Enquiries
                    Clive My prejudice against using such books as you list in a language learning programme means that I have never graded them or tried to put them into an er
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 5, 2004
                      Clive

                      My prejudice against using such books as you list in a language learning
                      programme means that I have never graded them or tried to put them into an
                      er programme.

                      A study of baby literature has its place and the "cute" factor will attract
                      your girls to read (or look at) them. Maybe it will even lead some to
                      serious language learning.

                      I would rather try EPER starter cards and reading cards but you might like
                      to look up www.usborne.com and see if their ELT programme is progressing.
                      They publish over 1000 baby books and have begun to issue them with an ELT
                      text. I have a flyer in front of me with 3 levels and several titles at
                      each level. I think that they are aimed at aspiring middle class families
                      who may use English at home and want to help their young children.

                      The cute factor operates all over the far east, viz the popularity of
                      hallmark cards. I wonder what the boys get. Presumably the sex and
                      violence offered to them
                      in the comic books. I do not like them any better!

                      Not very helpful, I am afraid, but that is where I stand.

                      Best wishes

                      David

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                      To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 7:54 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels


                      > David
                      >
                      > We seem to have been writing at cross-purposes. I assumed you knew my
                      > students are university students, so I didn't mention it, but the
                      > mention of books for younger NS kids threw you off the scent.
                      >
                      > Many of our students come to as at EPER level G, and a few are even
                      > lower - not yet ready for ER, therefore, in addition to the regular
                      > publishers' graded readers, which appear on your levels chart, we also
                      > provide books for develping literacy in young NS kids - particularly
                      > ones in the Ladybird "Read It Yourself" (mostly level G), "Favourite
                      > Tales" series, ( which I've put at Level E - linguistically higher than
                      > that , but loads of v.g. illustrations), and the Ladybird Children's
                      > Classics series (Level C or B?).
                      >
                      > This in turn has led to some of my (non-Japanese) teachers of English
                      > bringing in more difficult children's literature for native speakers,
                      > which their kids have deiscarded. Some of these are for quite young
                      > kids, but in very sophisticated language - like the Beatrix Potter
                      > "Peter Rabbit" stories, A.A. Milne's "Now We Are Six" poetry anthology
                      > and Nick Butterworth's tales of Percy the park keeper. I've got an
                      > anthology of stories called "More Bedtime Tales" published by Cavendish
                      > House, London (no author's name) (UK upper primary level) and an "Archie
                      > Andrews" comic book at about the same age level; some "Babysitters Club"
                      > stories for teenagers; Roald Dahl's "The Twits" and "The Giraffe and the
                      > Pelly & Me" and "The Midnight Fox" by Betsy Byars. These books are all
                      > obviously unsuitable for our lower level students, being linguistically
                      > too difficult, but a lot of our (female) students are very interested in
                      > children's literature, and some of them would find these books fun to
                      > read, even though challenging. I imagine you're familiar with quite a
                      > few of these. I'd like to know where to fit them on your scale.
                      >
                      > Sorry to have been so inexplicit previously.
                      >
                      > Clive
                      >
                      > David R. Hill wrote:
                      > > Clive,
                      > >
                      > > I see what you are after. But what sort of books are you trying to
                      assign
                      > > to levels A or X?
                      > >
                      > > In Malaysia we developed a three-stage level U for adudlt unsimplified
                      books
                      > > to be tackled after Level X.
                      > >
                      > > For Hong Kong I classified children's literature at levels B-X according
                      to
                      > > the length, complexity of the story and style of writing in a sort of
                      global
                      > > hunch as to the overall readability compared to the standard graded
                      readers.
                      > >
                      > > But the acid test is how the students find them.
                      > >
                      > > Best wishes
                      > >
                      > > David
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                      > > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:46 AM
                      > > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>Dear David
                      > >>
                      > >>Thank you for your reply. Either I didn't express myself clearly or you
                      > >>need to read my message more intensively! My request is for help in
                      > >>grading books at the top two levels that aren't covered by your
                      > >>publishers' series chart. Can you supply any criteria for deciding if a
                      > >>book is level A or X or lower, or is it just something you've developed
                      > >>a feel for, which would involve you writing a book to try to explain? If
                      > >>the latter, I'll quite understand your reluctance to respond, but a
                      > >>rough guide would be great.
                      > >>
                      > >>Clive
                      > >>
                      > >>David R. Hill wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>>Dear Clive
                      > >>>
                      > >>>I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS
                      > >>
                      > > worked
                      > >
                      > >>>quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B up.
                      > >>
                      > > I
                      > >
                      > >>>used them and the equivalent from UK publishers in preference to graded
                      > >>>readers at Level A and X, and hoped that they would progress up through
                      > >>>teenage fiction to adult fiction.
                      > >>>
                      > >>>At level B there are still some graded reders that are aimed at chldren
                      > >>
                      > > or
                      > >
                      > >>>teenagers. Above that they are all much more adult and entirely
                      > >>
                      > > suitable
                      > >
                      > >>>for Senior Secondary and Tertiary. The problem for them is how to
                      > >>
                      > > bridge
                      > >
                      > >>>the undoubgted gap between level X and adult unsimplified (whichare
                      > >>
                      > > usually
                      > >
                      > >>>very long and full of difficult allusions).
                      > >>>
                      > >>>There is unfortunately no world-wide equivlanet of Macmillan's
                      > >>
                      > > Pacesetters
                      > >
                      > >>>forAfrica which are unsimplified and about 150 pages. The nearest is
                      > >>
                      > > Mills
                      > >
                      > >>>and Boon, which are not to be dismissed out of hand, expecially for
                      > >>
                      > > girls.
                      > >
                      > >>>Most NNS teachers in Malaysia attributed their skill in English
                      entirely
                      > >>
                      > > to
                      > >
                      > >>>M&B!!
                      > >>>
                      > >>>Otherwise it is a trial and error process using titles like
                      > >>>Sherlock Holmes
                      > >>>The Pearl
                      > >>>39 Steps
                      > >>>detective stories
                      > >>>etc
                      > >>>
                      > >>>Short stories get round the big problem of length but do not allow the
                      > >>>learner to get stuck into a story that lasts a long time.
                      > >>>
                      > >>>Hope this clarifies things a bit.
                      > >>>
                      > >>>Best wishes.
                      > >>>
                      > >>>David
                      > >>>
                      > >>>PS Am glad the Lord's Day Resistance Army was not around in Uganda in
                      > >>
                      > > our
                      > >
                      > >>>day. They seem to be utterly evil.
                      > >>>
                      > >>>---- Original Message -----
                      > >>>From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                      > >>>To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                      > >>>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:26 AM
                      > >>>Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>>>Dear David
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning
                      to
                      > >>>>ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember when
                      I
                      > >>>>was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
                      > >>>>priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into a
                      > >>>>favourable alignment as they say in astrology.
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
                      > >>>>distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've
                      acquired
                      > >>>>various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children
                      have
                      > >>>>grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but are
                      > >>>>in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from elementary
                      > >>>>school to teenage. Any suggestions?
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>>Clive
                      > >>>>
                      > >>>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Clive Lovelock
                      David Message received and understood. And I m of the same opinion regarding books that I consider simply childish. The absence of reward (motivation to read)
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 7, 2004
                        David

                        Message received and understood. And I'm of the same opinion regarding
                        books that I consider simply childish. The absence of reward (motivation
                        to read) from reading unsuitable content more than cancels out the
                        apparent "value" of understandability while conforming to the sacred cow
                        of seeking "authentic" texts.

                        However, I would never consider these texts for low level readers. my
                        whole point is that they are either level A or level X. They are of
                        interest to adult students who are interested in children's LITERATURE -
                        not literacy. many of these students may later get jobs teaching young
                        children, or have children of their own, or they may be interested in
                        one of the sources of western culture (apart, of coure, from the "cute"
                        or nostalia factors). How many babies have you come across that can
                        understand - or enjoy - Beatrix Potter?

                        So my question is not "Have you graded these texts and if so, what level
                        are they?" but "Can you offer any simple guidelines for me to
                        distinguish between levels A and X?" I can do it for levels G to B,
                        because I'm used to teaching students at roughly those levels in terms
                        of grammatical and lexical level, and have a bit of a feel for other
                        factors like sentence length, conceptual difficulty, role of
                        illustrations, etc.. But I find I'm out of my depth at your highest two
                        levels because it's literally decades since I regularly taught students
                        at those levels (when I taught in Europe). I don't have an image in my
                        mind of what a class at that level would be like. I just deal with each
                        student individually and assess what problems the each have.

                        CL

                        EPER Enquiries wrote:
                        > Clive
                        >
                        > My prejudice against using such books as you list in a language learning
                        > programme means that I have never graded them or tried to put them into an
                        > er programme.
                        >
                        > A study of baby literature has its place and the "cute" factor will attract
                        > your girls to read (or look at) them. Maybe it will even lead some to
                        > serious language learning.
                        >
                        > I would rather try EPER starter cards and reading cards but you might like
                        > to look up www.usborne.com and see if their ELT programme is progressing.
                        > They publish over 1000 baby books and have begun to issue them with an ELT
                        > text. I have a flyer in front of me with 3 levels and several titles at
                        > each level. I think that they are aimed at aspiring middle class families
                        > who may use English at home and want to help their young children.
                        >
                        > The cute factor operates all over the far east, viz the popularity of
                        > hallmark cards. I wonder what the boys get. Presumably the sex and
                        > violence offered to them
                        > in the comic books. I do not like them any better!
                        >
                        > Not very helpful, I am afraid, but that is where I stand.
                        >
                        > Best wishes
                        >
                        > David
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                        > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 7:54 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>David
                        >>
                        >>We seem to have been writing at cross-purposes. I assumed you knew my
                        >>students are university students, so I didn't mention it, but the
                        >>mention of books for younger NS kids threw you off the scent.
                        >>
                        >>Many of our students come to as at EPER level G, and a few are even
                        >>lower - not yet ready for ER, therefore, in addition to the regular
                        >>publishers' graded readers, which appear on your levels chart, we also
                        >>provide books for develping literacy in young NS kids - particularly
                        >>ones in the Ladybird "Read It Yourself" (mostly level G), "Favourite
                        >>Tales" series, ( which I've put at Level E - linguistically higher than
                        >>that , but loads of v.g. illustrations), and the Ladybird Children's
                        >>Classics series (Level C or B?).
                        >>
                        >>This in turn has led to some of my (non-Japanese) teachers of English
                        >>bringing in more difficult children's literature for native speakers,
                        >>which their kids have deiscarded. Some of these are for quite young
                        >>kids, but in very sophisticated language - like the Beatrix Potter
                        >>"Peter Rabbit" stories, A.A. Milne's "Now We Are Six" poetry anthology
                        >>and Nick Butterworth's tales of Percy the park keeper. I've got an
                        >>anthology of stories called "More Bedtime Tales" published by Cavendish
                        >>House, London (no author's name) (UK upper primary level) and an "Archie
                        >>Andrews" comic book at about the same age level; some "Babysitters Club"
                        >>stories for teenagers; Roald Dahl's "The Twits" and "The Giraffe and the
                        >>Pelly & Me" and "The Midnight Fox" by Betsy Byars. These books are all
                        >>obviously unsuitable for our lower level students, being linguistically
                        >>too difficult, but a lot of our (female) students are very interested in
                        >>children's literature, and some of them would find these books fun to
                        >>read, even though challenging. I imagine you're familiar with quite a
                        >>few of these. I'd like to know where to fit them on your scale.
                        >>
                        >>Sorry to have been so inexplicit previously.
                        >>
                        >>Clive
                        >>
                        >>David R. Hill wrote:
                        >>
                        >>>Clive,
                        >>>
                        >>>I see what you are after. But what sort of books are you trying to
                        >>
                        > assign
                        >
                        >>>to levels A or X?
                        >>>
                        >>>In Malaysia we developed a three-stage level U for adudlt unsimplified
                        >>
                        > books
                        >
                        >>>to be tackled after Level X.
                        >>>
                        >>>For Hong Kong I classified children's literature at levels B-X according
                        >>
                        > to
                        >
                        >>>the length, complexity of the story and style of writing in a sort of
                        >>
                        > global
                        >
                        >>>hunch as to the overall readability compared to the standard graded
                        >>
                        > readers.
                        >
                        >>>But the acid test is how the students find them.
                        >>>
                        >>>Best wishes
                        >>>
                        >>>David
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>----- Original Message -----
                        >>>From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                        >>>To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                        >>>Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:46 AM
                        >>>Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>Dear David
                        >>>>
                        >>>>Thank you for your reply. Either I didn't express myself clearly or you
                        >>>>need to read my message more intensively! My request is for help in
                        >>>>grading books at the top two levels that aren't covered by your
                        >>>>publishers' series chart. Can you supply any criteria for deciding if a
                        >>>>book is level A or X or lower, or is it just something you've developed
                        >>>>a feel for, which would involve you writing a book to try to explain? If
                        >>>>the latter, I'll quite understand your reluctance to respond, but a
                        >>>>rough guide would be great.
                        >>>>
                        >>>>Clive
                        >>>>
                        >>>>David R. Hill wrote:
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>>Dear Clive
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS
                        >>>>
                        >>>worked
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B up.
                        >>>>
                        >>>I
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>used them and the equivalent from UK publishers in preference to graded
                        >>>>>readers at Level A and X, and hoped that they would progress up through
                        >>>>>teenage fiction to adult fiction.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>At level B there are still some graded reders that are aimed at chldren
                        >>>>
                        >>>or
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>teenagers. Above that they are all much more adult and entirely
                        >>>>
                        >>>suitable
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>for Senior Secondary and Tertiary. The problem for them is how to
                        >>>>
                        >>>bridge
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>the undoubgted gap between level X and adult unsimplified (whichare
                        >>>>
                        >>>usually
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>very long and full of difficult allusions).
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>There is unfortunately no world-wide equivlanet of Macmillan's
                        >>>>
                        >>>Pacesetters
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>forAfrica which are unsimplified and about 150 pages. The nearest is
                        >>>>
                        >>>Mills
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>and Boon, which are not to be dismissed out of hand, expecially for
                        >>>>
                        >>>girls.
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>Most NNS teachers in Malaysia attributed their skill in English
                        >>>>
                        > entirely
                        >
                        >>>to
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>M&B!!
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>Otherwise it is a trial and error process using titles like
                        >>>>>Sherlock Holmes
                        >>>>>The Pearl
                        >>>>>39 Steps
                        >>>>>detective stories
                        >>>>>etc
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>Short stories get round the big problem of length but do not allow the
                        >>>>>learner to get stuck into a story that lasts a long time.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>Hope this clarifies things a bit.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>Best wishes.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>David
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>PS Am glad the Lord's Day Resistance Army was not around in Uganda in
                        >>>>
                        >>>our
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>>>day. They seem to be utterly evil.
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>---- Original Message -----
                        >>>>>From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                        >>>>>To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                        >>>>>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:26 AM
                        >>>>>Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>>>Dear David
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>>Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning
                        >>>>>
                        > to
                        >
                        >>>>>>ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember when
                        >>>>>
                        > I
                        >
                        >>>>>>was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
                        >>>>>>priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into a
                        >>>>>>favourable alignment as they say in astrology.
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>>I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
                        >>>>>>distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've
                        >>>>>
                        > acquired
                        >
                        >>>>>>various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children
                        >>>>>
                        > have
                        >
                        >>>>>>grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but are
                        >>>>>>in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from elementary
                        >>>>>>school to teenage. Any suggestions?
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>>Clive
                        >>>>>>
                        >>>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • EPER Enquiries
                        Clive I think we are beginning to communicate! No, I cannot summarise the difference between A and X. My approach is entirely pragmatic. In your place I
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 8, 2004
                          Clive

                          I think we are beginning to communicate! No, I cannot summarise the
                          difference between A and X. My approach is entirely pragmatic. In your
                          place I would read several A and X titles to get a feel of the difference,
                          classify the book in question according to your feel of where it fits, and
                          try it there, ready to change the level if it does not work.

                          No sophisticated formula, I am afraid.

                          David
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                          To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 1:08 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels


                          > David
                          >
                          > Message received and understood. And I'm of the same opinion regarding
                          > books that I consider simply childish. The absence of reward (motivation
                          > to read) from reading unsuitable content more than cancels out the
                          > apparent "value" of understandability while conforming to the sacred cow
                          > of seeking "authentic" texts.
                          >
                          > However, I would never consider these texts for low level readers. my
                          > whole point is that they are either level A or level X. They are of
                          > interest to adult students who are interested in children's LITERATURE -
                          > not literacy. many of these students may later get jobs teaching young
                          > children, or have children of their own, or they may be interested in
                          > one of the sources of western culture (apart, of coure, from the "cute"
                          > or nostalia factors). How many babies have you come across that can
                          > understand - or enjoy - Beatrix Potter?
                          >
                          > So my question is not "Have you graded these texts and if so, what level
                          > are they?" but "Can you offer any simple guidelines for me to
                          > distinguish between levels A and X?" I can do it for levels G to B,
                          > because I'm used to teaching students at roughly those levels in terms
                          > of grammatical and lexical level, and have a bit of a feel for other
                          > factors like sentence length, conceptual difficulty, role of
                          > illustrations, etc.. But I find I'm out of my depth at your highest two
                          > levels because it's literally decades since I regularly taught students
                          > at those levels (when I taught in Europe). I don't have an image in my
                          > mind of what a class at that level would be like. I just deal with each
                          > student individually and assess what problems the each have.
                          >
                          > CL
                          >
                          > EPER Enquiries wrote:
                          > > Clive
                          > >
                          > > My prejudice against using such books as you list in a language learning
                          > > programme means that I have never graded them or tried to put them into
                          an
                          > > er programme.
                          > >
                          > > A study of baby literature has its place and the "cute" factor will
                          attract
                          > > your girls to read (or look at) them. Maybe it will even lead some to
                          > > serious language learning.
                          > >
                          > > I would rather try EPER starter cards and reading cards but you might
                          like
                          > > to look up www.usborne.com and see if their ELT programme is
                          progressing.
                          > > They publish over 1000 baby books and have begun to issue them with an
                          ELT
                          > > text. I have a flyer in front of me with 3 levels and several titles at
                          > > each level. I think that they are aimed at aspiring middle class
                          families
                          > > who may use English at home and want to help their young children.
                          > >
                          > > The cute factor operates all over the far east, viz the popularity of
                          > > hallmark cards. I wonder what the boys get. Presumably the sex and
                          > > violence offered to them
                          > > in the comic books. I do not like them any better!
                          > >
                          > > Not very helpful, I am afraid, but that is where I stand.
                          > >
                          > > Best wishes
                          > >
                          > > David
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                          > > To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 7:54 AM
                          > > Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>David
                          > >>
                          > >>We seem to have been writing at cross-purposes. I assumed you knew my
                          > >>students are university students, so I didn't mention it, but the
                          > >>mention of books for younger NS kids threw you off the scent.
                          > >>
                          > >>Many of our students come to as at EPER level G, and a few are even
                          > >>lower - not yet ready for ER, therefore, in addition to the regular
                          > >>publishers' graded readers, which appear on your levels chart, we also
                          > >>provide books for develping literacy in young NS kids - particularly
                          > >>ones in the Ladybird "Read It Yourself" (mostly level G), "Favourite
                          > >>Tales" series, ( which I've put at Level E - linguistically higher than
                          > >>that , but loads of v.g. illustrations), and the Ladybird Children's
                          > >>Classics series (Level C or B?).
                          > >>
                          > >>This in turn has led to some of my (non-Japanese) teachers of English
                          > >>bringing in more difficult children's literature for native speakers,
                          > >>which their kids have deiscarded. Some of these are for quite young
                          > >>kids, but in very sophisticated language - like the Beatrix Potter
                          > >>"Peter Rabbit" stories, A.A. Milne's "Now We Are Six" poetry anthology
                          > >>and Nick Butterworth's tales of Percy the park keeper. I've got an
                          > >>anthology of stories called "More Bedtime Tales" published by Cavendish
                          > >>House, London (no author's name) (UK upper primary level) and an "Archie
                          > >>Andrews" comic book at about the same age level; some "Babysitters Club"
                          > >>stories for teenagers; Roald Dahl's "The Twits" and "The Giraffe and the
                          > >>Pelly & Me" and "The Midnight Fox" by Betsy Byars. These books are all
                          > >>obviously unsuitable for our lower level students, being linguistically
                          > >>too difficult, but a lot of our (female) students are very interested in
                          > >>children's literature, and some of them would find these books fun to
                          > >>read, even though challenging. I imagine you're familiar with quite a
                          > >>few of these. I'd like to know where to fit them on your scale.
                          > >>
                          > >>Sorry to have been so inexplicit previously.
                          > >>
                          > >>Clive
                          > >>
                          > >>David R. Hill wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>>Clive,
                          > >>>
                          > >>>I see what you are after. But what sort of books are you trying to
                          > >>
                          > > assign
                          > >
                          > >>>to levels A or X?
                          > >>>
                          > >>>In Malaysia we developed a three-stage level U for adudlt unsimplified
                          > >>
                          > > books
                          > >
                          > >>>to be tackled after Level X.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>For Hong Kong I classified children's literature at levels B-X
                          according
                          > >>
                          > > to
                          > >
                          > >>>the length, complexity of the story and style of writing in a sort of
                          > >>
                          > > global
                          > >
                          > >>>hunch as to the overall readability compared to the standard graded
                          > >>
                          > > readers.
                          > >
                          > >>>But the acid test is how the students find them.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>Best wishes
                          > >>>
                          > >>>David
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>----- Original Message -----
                          > >>>From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                          > >>>To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                          > >>>Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 9:46 AM
                          > >>>Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>Dear David
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Thank you for your reply. Either I didn't express myself clearly or
                          you
                          > >>>>need to read my message more intensively! My request is for help in
                          > >>>>grading books at the top two levels that aren't covered by your
                          > >>>>publishers' series chart. Can you supply any criteria for deciding if
                          a
                          > >>>>book is level A or X or lower, or is it just something you've
                          developed
                          > >>>>a feel for, which would involve you writing a book to try to explain?
                          If
                          > >>>>the latter, I'll quite understand your reluctance to respond, but a
                          > >>>>rough guide would be great.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Clive
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>David R. Hill wrote:
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>>Dear Clive
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>I found that Scholastic books written for the 9-12 age group of NS
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>worked
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>quite well for the Hong Kong junior secondary children from Level B
                          up.
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>I
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>used them and the equivalent from UK publishers in preference to
                          graded
                          > >>>>>readers at Level A and X, and hoped that they would progress up
                          through
                          > >>>>>teenage fiction to adult fiction.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>At level B there are still some graded reders that are aimed at
                          chldren
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>or
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>teenagers. Above that they are all much more adult and entirely
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>suitable
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>for Senior Secondary and Tertiary. The problem for them is how to
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>bridge
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>the undoubgted gap between level X and adult unsimplified (whichare
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>usually
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>very long and full of difficult allusions).
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>There is unfortunately no world-wide equivlanet of Macmillan's
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>Pacesetters
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>forAfrica which are unsimplified and about 150 pages. The nearest is
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>Mills
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>and Boon, which are not to be dismissed out of hand, expecially for
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>girls.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>Most NNS teachers in Malaysia attributed their skill in English
                          > >>>>
                          > > entirely
                          > >
                          > >>>to
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>M&B!!
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Otherwise it is a trial and error process using titles like
                          > >>>>>Sherlock Holmes
                          > >>>>>The Pearl
                          > >>>>>39 Steps
                          > >>>>>detective stories
                          > >>>>>etc
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Short stories get round the big problem of length but do not allow
                          the
                          > >>>>>learner to get stuck into a story that lasts a long time.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Hope this clarifies things a bit.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>Best wishes.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>David
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>PS Am glad the Lord's Day Resistance Army was not around in Uganda in
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>our
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>>>day. They seem to be utterly evil.
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>---- Original Message -----
                          > >>>>>From: "Clive Lovelock" <lovelock@...-gu.ac.jp>
                          > >>>>>To: <ExtensiveReading@yahoogroups.com>
                          > >>>>>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 9:26 AM
                          > >>>>>Subject: Re: [ExtensiveReading] EPER levels
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>>>Dear David
                          > >>>>>>
                          > >>>>>>Tracy's query and your response reminded mean that I've been meaning
                          > >>>>>
                          > > to
                          > >
                          > >>>>>>ask you something for some time now, but only seemed to remember
                          when
                          > >>>>>
                          > > I
                          > >
                          > >>>>>>was not seated at my computer, or when I was too busy with other
                          > >>>>>>priorities. At last intention, attention and location have come into
                          a
                          > >>>>>>favourable alignment as they say in astrology.
                          > >>>>>>
                          > >>>>>>I'd like to ask you if you can give me some guidance on how to
                          > >>>>>>distinguish between level A and level X reading materials. I've
                          > >>>>>
                          > > acquired
                          > >
                          > >>>>>>various books from friends whose (English native speaking) children
                          > >>>>>
                          > > have
                          > >
                          > >>>>>>grown out of them. In other words, they're not graded readers, but
                          are
                          > >>>>>>in relatively easy English for NS kids of various ages from
                          elementary
                          > >>>>>>school to teenage. Any suggestions?
                          > >>>>>>
                          > >>>>>>Clive
                          > >>>>>>
                          > >>>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Brett Reynolds
                          What levels have been given to Penguin s Moonfleet and Gandhi? Best, Brett ... Brett Reynolds English Language Centre Humber Institute of Technology and
                          Message 12 of 21 , Feb 10, 2006
                            What levels have been given to Penguin's Moonfleet and Gandhi?

                            Best,
                            Brett

                            -----------------------
                            Brett Reynolds
                            English Language Centre
                            Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
                            Toronto, Ontario, Canada
                            brett.reynolds@...
                          • Julian Bamford
                            ... They re both Penguin Level 2 (elementary), which EPER usually puts at Level D in their scheme. I don t know if David Hill has put one or both of those
                            Message 13 of 21 , Feb 13, 2006
                              Brett asked:
                              > What levels have been given to Penguin's Moonfleet and Gandhi?

                              They're both Penguin Level 2 (elementary), which EPER usually puts at
                              Level "D" in their scheme. I don't know if David Hill has put one or
                              both of those books up or down a level for any reason. I have them at
                              D in my library and no student has complained yet. Why do you ask
                              about those particular books?
                              --Julian
                            • Brett Reynolds
                              Thanks, No big reason. We just got the books in but couldn t agree so wanted another opinion. Best, Brett ... Brett Reynolds English Language Centre Humber
                              Message 14 of 21 , Feb 13, 2006
                                Thanks,

                                No big reason. We just got the books in but couldn't agree so wanted
                                another opinion.

                                Best,
                                Brett

                                On Feb 13, 2006, at 3:31 AM, Julian Bamford wrote:

                                > Brett asked:
                                > > What levels have been given to Penguin's Moonfleet and Gandhi?
                                >
                                > They're both Penguin Level 2 (elementary), which EPER usually puts at
                                > Level "D" in their scheme. I don't know if David Hill has put one or
                                > both of those books up or down a level for any reason. I have them at
                                > D in my library and no student has complained yet. Why do you ask
                                > about those particular books?
                                > --Julian



                                -----------------------
                                Brett Reynolds
                                English Language Centre
                                Humber Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
                                Toronto, Ontario, Canada
                                brett.reynolds@...
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.