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Re: [Exex-gay] ...should fundamentalist christians be allowed to marry....?

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  • tom miller
    Oh so funny. Thanks edwardxderwent wrote: good satirical opinion piece in yesterday s sydney morning herald.
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 1, 2007
      Oh so funny.  Thanks

      edwardxderwent <edwardxderwent@...> wrote:
      good satirical opinion piece in yesterday's sydney morning herald.

      http://www.smh. com.au/news/ opinion/a- fundamental- wrong-in- letting-some- marry/2007/ 03/30/1174761750 887.html

      There's a fundamental wrong in letting some people marry

      Lisa Pryor
      March 31, 2007

      The views I am about to express are not very fashionable. They are
      certainly not politically correct. But I believe what I am about to
      say must be expressed to protect the institution of marriage.

      Too often in the media, currency is given to the theory that everyone
      should be allowed to marry regardless of gender, outlook and whether
      the two people are creating a suitable family environment in which to
      bring up children.

      Well, it is time to ask some hard questions about this attitude. The
      only way we will save marriage is to reclaim the institution for the
      mainstream. Marriage is for normal people who want to raise children
      in a healthy and secure environment. This is why we should ban
      religious fundamentalists from marrying.

      Fundamentalists of all religions engage in unnatural practices. The
      unconventional views they hold inevitably lead to their children being
      teased in the playground and, no matter what studies may show, there
      is surely a greater risk they will grow up to be fundamentalist
      themselves if they are exposed to dangerous ideas from a tender age.

      No matter what fundamentalist propaganda may claim, fundamentalism is
      not sanctioned by nature. There is not a single species in the animal
      kingdom which stresses the infallibility of the Bible or adheres to
      the teachings of the Koran. Even in the higher orders of primate, no
      species has conclusively shown faith in the virgin birth or the second
      coming. Animals tend to be atheist, pagan or animist, which shows that
      these views are surely instinctive, normal, natural and right.

      Maybe you think it is OK for humans to differ from animals. Maybe you
      think consenting adults should be able to do what they like regardless
      of whether the average person agrees with their views.

      Such a liberal approach is a slippery slope. When we allow
      fundamentalists to marry it says that fundamentalism is OK. It
      encourages these people to foist the fundamentalist agenda on the rest
      of the community. Before long they will be trying to "convert" people
      to their "religions". Should we risk this? Fundamentalists are a small
      minority of the population, so only a small number of people would be
      inconvenienced by a ban. It would not even be discriminatory as
      fundamentalists would still have the right to marry - so long as they
      renounced their religion.

      Let's not forget that we are not just talking about consenting adults.
      When you allow fundamentalists to marry it encourages them to have
      children. Sure, they might still have kids even if they cannot marry
      in the eyes of the law, but why legitimise it? Children are the true
      victims of fundamentalist marriages. Children don't get a say when
      they are born into a household practising a fundamentalist lifestyle.
      Tiny children should not be subjected to cultural experiments and
      social engineering. Imagine how confused and guilty children would
      feel when they were indoctrinated with the bizarre idea that they were
      born with the stain of original sin and were in fact so inherently bad
      that a man had to bleed to death to make it all OK.

      Imagine also the teasing that children who have grown up in these
      "families" would be subjected to in the playground when other kids
      find out about their unusual views and practices. What are normal
      parents supposed to do when their children arrive home asking
      uncomfortable questions because they have been exposed to these groups
      at an age when they are too young to understand?

      Before you know it, fundamentalist parents will be insisting preschool
      children read storybooks about the fundamentalist lifestyle in order
      to better understand it. There will be colouring books directed at
      four-year-olds showing Jesus turning water into wine and walking on
      water, as if it were gospel.

      What hope does a child indoctrinated with this sort of propaganda have
      of growing up to be normal? Can you really tell me they will not be
      more likely to grow up fundamentalist themselves?

      Before you accuse me of hate speech, I should point out that I bear no
      grudge against fundamentalists personally. "Love the fundamentalist,
      hate the fundamentalism" is my policy.

      I suppose one chink in this argument is that banning a minority from
      marrying is utterly unfair, inhumane and intolerant. Kind of like the
      ban on gay marriage.

      People only protect what they love,
      but they can love only what they know

      Jacques-Yves Cousteau





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    • Coach Anthony
      That’s great Kenni Anthony Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be forgiven. My
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 1, 2007

        That’s great Kenni

         

        Anthony

        Moderator

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay

        My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted, celebrated, and lived with integrity.

        Freedom 2 B(e)

        Support - Information - Dialogue for GLBTIQ People from Pentecostal/Charismatic Backgrounds go to www.freedom2b.org

         


        From: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of edwardxderwent
        Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2007 10:31
        To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Exex-gay] ...should fundamentalist christians be allowed to marry....?

         

        good satirical opinion piece in yesterday's sydney morning herald.

        http://www.smh. com.au/news/ opinion/a- fundamental- wrong-in- letting-some- marry/2007/ 03/30/1174761750 887.html

        There's a fundamental wrong in letting some people marry

        Lisa Pryor
        March 31, 2007

        The views I am about to express are not very fashionable. They are
        certainly not politically correct. But I believe what I am about to
        say must be expressed to protect the institution of marriage.

        Too often in the media, currency is given to the theory that everyone
        should be allowed to marry regardless of gender, outlook and whether
        the two people are creating a suitable family environment in which to
        bring up children.

        Well, it is time to ask some hard questions about this attitude. The
        only way we will save marriage is to reclaim the institution for the
        mainstream. Marriage is for normal people who want to raise children
        in a healthy and secure environment. This is why we should ban
        religious fundamentalists from marrying.

        Fundamentalists of all religions engage in unnatural practices. The
        unconventional views they hold inevitably lead to their children being
        teased in the playground and, no matter what studies may show, there
        is surely a greater risk they will grow up to be fundamentalist
        themselves if they are exposed to dangerous ideas from a tender age.

        No matter what fundamentalist propaganda may claim, fundamentalism is
        not sanctioned by nature. There is not a single species in the animal
        kingdom which stresses the infallibility of the Bible or adheres to
        the teachings of the Koran. Even in the higher orders of primate, no
        species has conclusively shown faith in the virgin birth or the second
        coming. Animals tend to be atheist, pagan or animist, which shows that
        these views are surely instinctive, normal, natural and right.

        Maybe you think it is OK for humans to differ from animals. Maybe you
        think consenting adults should be able to do what they like regardless
        of whether the average person agrees with their views.

        Such a liberal approach is a slippery slope. When we allow
        fundamentalists to marry it says that fundamentalism is OK. It
        encourages these people to foist the fundamentalist agenda on the rest
        of the community. Before long they will be trying to "convert" people
        to their "religions". Should we risk this? Fundamentalists are a small
        minority of the population, so only a small number of people would be
        inconvenienced by a ban. It would not even be discriminatory as
        fundamentalists would still have the right to marry - so long as they
        renounced their religion.

        Let's not forget that we are not just talking about consenting adults.
        When you allow fundamentalists to marry it encourages them to have
        children. Sure, they might still have kids even if they cannot marry
        in the eyes of the law, but why legitimise it? Children are the true
        victims of fundamentalist marriages. Children don't get a say when
        they are born into a household practising a fundamentalist lifestyle.
        Tiny children should not be subjected to cultural experiments and
        social engineering. Imagine how confused and guilty children would
        feel when they were indoctrinated with the bizarre idea that they were
        born with the stain of original sin and were in fact so inherently bad
        that a man had to bleed to death to make it all OK.

        Imagine also the teasing that children who have grown up in these
        "families" would be subjected to in the playground when other kids
        find out about their unusual views and practices. What are normal
        parents supposed to do when their children arrive home asking
        uncomfortable questions because they have been exposed to these groups
        at an age when they are too young to understand?

        Before you know it, fundamentalist parents will be insisting preschool
        children read storybooks about the fundamentalist lifestyle in order
        to better understand it. There will be colouring books directed at
        four-year-olds showing Jesus turning water into wine and walking on
        water, as if it were gospel.

        What hope does a child indoctrinated with this sort of propaganda have
        of growing up to be normal? Can you really tell me they will not be
        more likely to grow up fundamentalist themselves?

        Before you accuse me of hate speech, I should point out that I bear no
        grudge against fundamentalists personally. "Love the fundamentalist,
        hate the fundamentalism" is my policy.

        I suppose one chink in this argument is that banning a minority from
        marrying is utterly unfair, inhumane and intolerant. Kind of like the
        ban on gay marriage.

        People only protect what they love,
        but they can love only what they know

        Jacques-Yves Cousteau

      • edwardxderwent
        i have doubts that the target of the satire will see the irony ... (smile). much more likely to see it as another attack by the anti-christ !! hehe kenni
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 1, 2007
          i have doubts that the target of the satire will see the irony ...
          (smile).

          much more likely to see it as another attack by the anti-christ !! hehe


          kenni
        • Coach Anthony
          It’s a bit quiet here lately isn’t it. Anthony Moderator http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 2, 2007

            It’s a bit quiet here lately isn’t it.

             

            Anthony

            Moderator

            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay

            My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted, celebrated, and lived with integrity.

            Freedom 2 B(e)

            Support - Information - Dialogue for GLBTIQ People from Pentecostal/Charismatic Backgrounds go to www.freedom2b.org

             


            From: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of edwardxderwent
            Sent: Monday, 2 April 2007 14:07
            To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: ...should fundamentalist christians be allowed to marry....?

             



            i have doubts that the target of the satire will see the irony ...
            (smile).

            much more likely to see it as another attack by the anti-christ !! hehe

            kenni

          • Ninure Saunders
            ... A lot of us in the USA were experiencing GOOD weather for a change and leaving the puter, went out to enjoy it! :) Pax Christi, Ninure Saunders aka
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 2, 2007
              --- Coach Anthony <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:

              > It’s a bit quiet here lately isn’t it.

              A lot of us in the USA were experiencing GOOD weather for a change
              and leaving the 'puter, went out to enjoy it! :)


              Pax Christi,
              Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
              My Blog
              http://blog.myspace.com/rainbow_christian

              ===========================
              "All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as self-evident." -- Arthur Schopenhauer



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            • susan ross
              Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking anything in your body etc. Well
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 27, 2007

                Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our life times they would have little devices that store our information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said in Revelations.

                Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.

                http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070626/hl_afp /usheal...


                Need Mail bonding?
                Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
              • Coach Anthony
                There was a lot of sensationalist preaching and I think there still is. When you’ve been around for a while you know most of its just people vivid
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 27, 2007

                  There was a lot of sensationalist preaching and I think there still is.

                   

                  When you’ve been around for a while you know most of its just people vivid imaginations and poor interpretations of scripture

                   

                  Anthony

                  Moderator

                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay

                  My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted, celebrated, and lived with integrity.

                  Freedom 2 B(e)

                  Support - Information - Dialogue for GLBTIQ People from Pentecostal/Charismatic Backgrounds go to www.freedom2b.org

                   


                  From: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com [mailto: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of susan ross
                  Sent: Wednesday, 27 June 2007 23:24
                  To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Exex-gay] End of times?

                   



                  Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our life times they would have little devices that store our information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said in Revelations.

                  Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.

                  http://news. yahoo.com/ s/afp/20070626/ hl_afp /usheal...

                   

                   


                  Need Mail bonding?
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                • harry gifford
                  I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the question. I, too, share the concern. Has any one heard from God on this? Does anyone know
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 27, 2007
                    I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the question.  I, too, share the concern.  Has any one heard from God on this?  Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation?  I am asking this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from the same in return.  I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an important thing for me.  I have seen these articles, too and they have given me pause.
                     
                    Harry Gifford.
                    www.godandgays.org


                    Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our life times they would have little devices that store our information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said in Revelations.

                    Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.

                    http://news. yahoo.com/ s/afp/20070626/ hl_afp /usheal...


                    Need Mail bonding?
                    Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.


                    Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.

                  • Ninure Saunders
                    Why would you be concerned? Do you have any idea folks have been caught up in trying to ffigure the date and time , even tho he tld us No one knows, only
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 27, 2007
                      Why would you be concerned?

                      Do you have any idea folks have been caught up in trying to ffigure
                      the "date and time", even tho he tld us "No one knows, only Abba in
                      heaven"?

                      How many times have people tried to "read the signs" and been dead
                      wrong, destroying the faith of many and making a way for others to
                      mock Christians?

                      "Let not you heart be troubled"

                      "We are not given a spirit of fear, but of power and a sound mind".

                      Do you not trust your Savior?

                      Hasn't He told you what to do?

                      Do te work that He has fiven us...Preach the GOOD news of Go'd
                      inclusive love, work for peace, feed the poor, clothe the naked, help
                      the homeless, visit the sick.

                      The Lord will come when He comes, He only needs to find us awake,
                      ready, and working, doncha think?

                      --- harry gifford <hraymondg@...> wrote:

                      > I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the
                      > question. I, too, share the concern. Has any one heard from God
                      > on this? Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark
                      > of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation? I am asking
                      > this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from
                      > the same in return. I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an
                      > important thing for me. I have seen these articles, too and they
                      > have given me pause.
                      >
                      > Harry Gifford.
                      > www.godandgays.org
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up
                      > they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking
                      > anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our
                      > life times they would have little devices that store our
                      > information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical
                      > treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said
                      > in Revelations.
                      >
                      > Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it
                      > got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.
                      >
                      > http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070626/hl_afp /usheal...
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Need Mail bonding?
                      > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
                      > what's on, when.


                      Pax Christi,
                      Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
                      My Blog
                      http://blog.myspace.com/rainbow_christian

                      ===========================
                      "All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as self-evident." -- Arthur Schopenhauer



                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                      with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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                    • Jeffrey Starks
                      From a faith concern, I m thinking that the church will have been Raptured away by this point, so it won t affect us directly. From a realistic concern, it
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 27, 2007
                        From a faith concern, I'm thinking that the church will have been Raptured away by this point, so it won't affect us directly.
                         
                        From a realistic concern, it would take a LOT of heavy legislation and Senate debate for this to come to pass (no selling, no buying, etc.)
                         
                        From an interpretive concern, I personally avoid Revelation because it's SO symbolic and metaphorical, it's difficult for me to take anything literally from that particular book.
                         


                        Ninure Saunders <ninure@...> wrote:
                        Why would you be concerned?

                        Do you have any idea folks have been caught up in trying to ffigure
                        the "date and time", even tho he tld us "No one knows, only Abba in
                        heaven"?

                        How many times have people tried to "read the signs" and been dead
                        wrong, destroying the faith of many and making a way for others to
                        mock Christians?

                        "Let not you heart be troubled"

                        "We are not given a spirit of fear, but of power and a sound mind".

                        Do you not trust your Savior?

                        Hasn't He told you what to do?

                        Do te work that He has fiven us...Preach the GOOD news of Go'd
                        inclusive love, work for peace, feed the poor, clothe the naked, help
                        the homeless, visit the sick.

                        The Lord will come when He comes, He only needs to find us awake,
                        ready, and working, doncha think?

                        --- harry gifford <hraymondg@yahoo. com> wrote:

                        > I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the
                        > question. I, too, share the concern. Has any one heard from God
                        > on this? Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark
                        > of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation? I am asking
                        > this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from
                        > the same in return. I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an
                        > important thing for me. I have seen these articles, too and they
                        > have given me pause.
                        >
                        > Harry Gifford.
                        > www.godandgays. org
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up
                        > they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking
                        > anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our
                        > life times they would have little devices that store our
                        > information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical
                        > treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said
                        > in Revelations.
                        >
                        > Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it
                        > got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.
                        >
                        > http://news. yahoo.com/ s/afp/20070626/ hl_afp /usheal...
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                        > Need Mail bonding?
                        > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                        > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
                        > what's on, when.

                        Pax Christi,
                        Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
                        My Blog
                        http://blog. myspace.com/ rainbow_christia n

                        ============ ========= ======
                        "All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as self-evident. " -- Arthur Schopenhauer

                        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                        Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
                        with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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                      • harry gifford
                        Thank you Ninure and Jeffrey. Gotta stop letting needless fear have the opportunity to press my buttons. Have to keep my focus on God, and let the chips fall
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 27, 2007
                          Thank you Ninure and Jeffrey.  Gotta stop letting needless fear have the opportunity to press my buttons.  Have to keep my focus on God, and let the chips fall where they fall.  In everything that I know to do, I have been doing it, and I have to trust God with things that I have no answer for and keep plugging away at what I know to do.  Your wisdom is sound.
                           
                          Thanks.
                           
                          Harry.

                          Jeffrey Starks <jsta43catrocks@...> wrote:
                          From a faith concern, I'm thinking that the church will have been Raptured away by this point, so it won't affect us directly.
                           
                          From a realistic concern, it would take a LOT of heavy legislation and Senate debate for this to come to pass (no selling, no buying, etc.)
                           
                          From an interpretive concern, I personally avoid Revelation because it's SO symbolic and metaphorical, it's difficult for me to take anything literally from that particular book.
                           


                          Ninure Saunders <ninure@yahoo. com> wrote:
                          Why would you be concerned?

                          Do you have any idea folks have been caught up in trying to ffigure
                          the "date and time", even tho he tld us "No one knows, only Abba in
                          heaven"?

                          How many times have people tried to "read the signs" and been dead
                          wrong, destroying the faith of many and making a way for others to
                          mock Christians?

                          "Let not you heart be troubled"

                          "We are not given a spirit of fear, but of power and a sound mind".

                          Do you not trust your Savior?

                          Hasn't He told you what to do?

                          Do te work that He has fiven us...Preach the GOOD news of Go'd
                          inclusive love, work for peace, feed the poor, clothe the naked, help
                          the homeless, visit the sick.

                          The Lord will come when He comes, He only needs to find us awake,
                          ready, and working, doncha think?

                          --- harry gifford <hraymondg@yahoo. com> wrote:

                          > I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the
                          > question. I, too, share the concern. Has any one heard from God
                          > on this? Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark
                          > of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation? I am asking
                          > this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from
                          > the same in return. I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an
                          > important thing for me. I have seen these articles, too and they
                          > have given me pause.
                          >
                          > Harry Gifford.
                          > www.godandgays. org
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up
                          > they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking
                          > anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our
                          > life times they would have little devices that store our
                          > information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical
                          > treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said
                          > in Revelations.
                          >
                          > Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it
                          > got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.
                          >
                          > http://news. yahoo.com/ s/afp/20070626/ hl_afp /usheal...
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                          > Need Mail bonding?
                          > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                          > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see
                          > what's on, when.

                          Pax Christi,
                          Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
                          My Blog
                          http://blog. myspace.com/ rainbow_christia n

                          ============ ========= ======
                          "All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed; Second, it is violently opposed; Third, it is accepted as self-evident. " -- Arthur Schopenhauer

                          ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                          Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
                          with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
                          http://tools. search.yahoo. com/shortcuts/ #loc_weather


                          Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.


                          Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

                        • edwardxderwent
                          realism ? i guess this can only be a concern of a relative wealthy christians in well-organised countries where medical services are easily available. maybe
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jun 27, 2007
                            realism ? i guess this can only be a concern of a relative 'wealthy'
                            christians in well-organised countries where medical services are
                            easily available. maybe 1,000,000,000 out of the 6,000,000,000+ people
                            on earth today

                            i do not think it's going to be a worry for all the others who may
                            find it dam difficult to get any health services at all, irrespective
                            of whether or not they had a 'chip' inserted.

                            guess they may all settle for an occasional injection of some life
                            saving drug for their sick kids.

                            sounds like paranoid christianity to me.


                            kenni


                            --------------------------------------------------------------------
                          • Trent McKaig
                            Hey Harry, you said you wanted to know if there is another interpretation of the mark of the Beast I guess there is as many interpretations as there are
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jun 27, 2007
                              Hey Harry, you said you wanted to know if there is another interpretation of 'the mark of the Beast' I guess there is as many interpretations as there are Christians (probably more! LOL).
                               
                              Revelation is a love letter from a bridegroom (Jesus) to his bride (the Church (ie all believers throughout time)), its about the journey of the Bride through time to the Marriage feast of the Groom and all the opposition and dangers she'll face, but the groom is always there to protect and lead Her through because He loves Her. This is the great thing about Revelation its about love, not about beasts, horror and judgments - they're in there but that's not what its about it was the last book of the Bible written for the Church to keep it comforted through the ages until Jesus come back for her.
                               
                              As for the mark of the beast I think that eventually it may become a literal, physical mark something like in the article you showed us, but, it is also and mainly a spiritual mark. If you look at numbers in the Bible most scholars agree that 6 represents humankind, so three 6's is a human trinity ( not a Satanic one like Hollywood and the Fundamentalists would have us think - Satan is no doubt behind it though). Throughout most of Church history the mark of the beast has been interpreted as the Church using the law and secular government to bring about God's Kingdom, basically without God. This is what John was talking about in his epistle when he says many antichrist have come..... 1 John 2:18-19 etc. With this in mind it does put the Fundamentalist/ Evangelicals in a bad position as they are more and more using the secular powers to "make society acceptable" to God rather than preaching the truth, well I guess its as Jesus said "wide is... the path to destruction..." Matt 7:13.
                               
                              Hey I hope this helps a bit and hasn't confused the issue more. Just remember your not going to accidently do something that will make you miss out on Heaven, God loves us so much. If something in the Bible scares you reread it its meant to encourage and lift you not put you down.
                               
                              And do what Ninure has said, stay close to God.
                               
                              God Bless,
                               
                              Trent.




                              To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                              From: hraymondg@...
                              Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 15:20:20 -0700
                              Subject: Re: [Exex-gay] End of times?

                              Thank you Ninure and Jeffrey.  Gotta stop letting needless fear have the opportunity to press my buttons.  Have to keep my focus on God, and let the chips fall where they fall.  In everything that I know to do, I have been doing it, and I have to trust God with things that I have no answer for and keep plugging away at what I know to do.  Your wisdom is sound.
                               
                              Thanks.
                               
                              Harry.

                              Jeffrey Starks <jsta43catrocks@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                              From a faith concern, I'm thinking that the church will have been Raptured away by this point, so it won't affect us directly.
                               
                              From a realistic concern, it would take a LOT of heavy legislation and Senate debate for this to come to pass (no selling, no buying, etc.)
                               
                              From an interpretive concern, I personally avoid Revelation because it's SO symbolic and metaphorical, it's difficult for me to take anything literally from that particular book.
                               


                              Ninure Saunders <ninure@yahoo. com> wrote:
                              Why would you be concerned?

                              Do you have any idea folks have been caught up in trying to ffigure
                              the "date and time", even tho he tld us "No one knows, only Abba in
                              heaven"?

                              How many times have people tried to "read the signs" and been dead
                              wrong, destroying the faith of many and making a way for others to
                              mock Christians?

                              "Let not you heart be troubled"

                              "We are not given a spirit of fear, but of power and a sound mind".

                              Do you not trust your Savior?

                              Hasn't He told you what to do?

                              Do te work that He has fiven us...Preach the GOOD news of Go'd
                              inclusive love, work for peace, feed the poor, clothe the naked, help
                              the homeless, visit the sick.

                              The Lord will come when He comes, He only needs to find us awake,
                              ready, and working, doncha think?

                              --- harry gifford <hraymondg@yahoo. com> wrote:

                              > I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the
                              > question. I, too, share the concern. Has any one heard from God
                              > on this? Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark
                              > of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation? I am asking
                              > this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from
                              > the same in return. I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an
                              > important thing for me. I have seen these articles, too and they
                              > have given me pause.
                              >
                              > Harry Gifford.
                              > www.godandgays. org
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up
                              > they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking
                              > anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our
                              > life times they would have little devices that store our
                              > information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical
                              > treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said
                              > in Revelations.
                              >
                              > Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it
                              > got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.
                              >
                              > http://news. yahoo.com/ s/afp/20070626/ hl_afp /usheal...
                              >
                              >
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                              Pax Christi,
                              Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian
                              My Blog
                              http://blog. myspace.com/ rainbow_christia n

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                            • susan ross
                              Harry, thanks for answering. It lets me know I am not alone out here. When the technology of today meets or excedes the sci-fi technology we watched in movies
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jun 28, 2007
                                Harry, thanks for answering.  It lets me know I am not alone out here. 
                                 
                                When the technology of today meets or excedes the sci-fi technology we watched in movies as kids it can be unnerving.  While coming up we were made to watch these horrid films about the second coming and the poor people that were left after the "rapture".  I was much to young to watch these and to this very day at my age of 36 I still have horrible nightmares about it.  The end times for me is a deep rooted, horrid phobia instill by a church that I think at the time was just trying to do what it deemed best.  Unfortunately its best created a deep fear in me like no other.  While other Christians look forward to the "second coming" I fear it, dread it, have nightmares about it and just plain wish I never saw that stupid film or even learned about it. 
                                 
                                I have tried to turn this all around and lean on God as I am still very much a Christian and come at this issue from a faith point of view.  I know some on these boards are not Chrisitan and if thats what they choose then so be it however I have to equalize my faith with my fears and phobias.  Its not an easy road to walk.  Its funny sometimes I think giving up would be much easier that trying to deal with my feelings but that just can't happen.  So I struggle along and get scared to death when I read articles about microchips and things like that.  My dreams are back this morning and I am dealing with them in my own way.
                                 
                                I too would be greatly intrested in hearing if anyone else has ideas on what the "mark" is supposed to be.  I think talking this out might help.  In the mean time I thank all of you for your responses.  I will do as suggested, lean on God, keep the faith and do my work.  However discourse about this would be appreciated.
                                 
                                Susan

                                harry gifford <hraymondg@...> wrote:
                                I appreciate the responses given, but no one has really answed the question.  I, too, share the concern.  Has any one heard from God on this?  Does anyone know another interpretation of what the mark of the beast is, and one that means in Revelation?  I am asking this from a faith concern vantage point and expect an answer from the same in return.  I am gay and pentecostal, so this is an important thing for me.  I have seen these articles, too and they have given me pause.
                                 
                                Harry Gifford.
                                www.godandgays.org


                                Well I grew up AoG as many of you know. In the church I grew up they spoke of the mark being given and you should avoid taking anything in your body etc. Well the preacher said soon and in our life times they would have little devices that store our information, and without it one couldn't trade, get medical treatments or do anything else for that matter. Just like it said in Revelations.

                                Well was that church right? I read this article this morning and it got my heart to racing. Silly or not it still scared me proper.

                                http://news. yahoo.com/ s/afp/20070626/ hl_afp /usheal...


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                              • Drew VanDyche
                                I too saw a thief in the night and other subsequent christian scare tactic movies during my youth and was traumatized so much that I prayed every night from
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jun 29, 2007
                                  I too saw "a thief in the night" and other subsequent christian scare tactic movies during my youth and was traumatized so much that I prayed every night from the time I was oh, eight or nine years old till I was probably fifteen or sixteen for God to forgive the evil loathsome abomination to God and sinner that I was and forgive me and come into my heart, take the thone of my life and save me from myself (and keep me from going to hell).
                                   
                                  He never did. Jesus never showed up on a white horse to take me away from the life of misery that I lived as a child. Every step towards sanity and wholeness has been one that I have fought for with blood, sweat and tears.
                                   
                                  All the Church did for me was heap upon me loads of fear, guilt and shame. I have learned that fear of going to hell is not a good enough reason to be a Christian. We have strayed so far away from the early Hebrew understanding of God and Jesus' true teachings. We were already gods when we were in the garden of Eden, but we didn't believe it, so we were deceived into believing we had to have something else to be that which we already were. And the Church proper continues the work of the devil today as it sends us back to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. When it asks us to polarize life into right and wrong, good and evil.
                                   
                                  Ah what tangled webs we weave, when first we teach them to deceive. W. Shakespeare
                                   
                                  I no longer worry about hell or the end times. I am immortal. It is only this body that I leave behind. - Drew VanDyche


                                  It would be an honor if you would visit the below URLs and listen to some accomplished songwriters:
                                  Jeremy Drinkwine
                                  Michael Logen
                                • Korry Korry
                                  Some of you might have been privy to THIS news item: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56481 And here s his testimony:
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Jul 4, 2007
                                    Some of you might have been privy to THIS news item:

                                    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56481

                                    And here's his testimony:

                                    http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487

                                    Of course, while he terms homosexuality a "sin" and
                                    now opposes gay civil liberties, he NEVER once
                                    mentions that he is 1) no longer sexually attracted to
                                    guys and 2) that he is sexually attracted to women.

                                    Uh, did I miss something, but doesn't the latter have
                                    some tenuous relationship to heterosexuality?

                                    We have seen this before, with Noe Guitierez Jr., a
                                    gay activist-turned Christian ex-gay-turned ex-ex-gay.
                                    But Guitierez at least did talk about sexual feelings,
                                    and he wasn't so zealously self-righteous.

                                    The righteous condemnation (and wallowing in guilt) in
                                    Glatze's piece are virtually ensuring a major public
                                    embarrassment for the man.

                                    On a certain level, I feel for him, since I can
                                    understand what he is going through, yet I also cringe
                                    thinking of the many stupid readers of World Nut Daily
                                    who truly believe that sexuality issues are so easily
                                    resolved.

                                    K






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                                  • Anthony Venn-Brown
                                    interesting Korry.....we will keep an eye on this. It seems that people always equate an unfillig life with endless unsatisfying sexual encounters as being a
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Jul 4, 2007
                                      interesting Korry.....we will keep an eye on this.

                                      It seems that people always equate an unfillig life with endless
                                      unsatisfying sexual encounters as being a gay expeience...but its as amuch
                                      heterosexual as homosexual.

                                      Anthony Venn-Brown
                                      Currently overseas
                                      Text or call +61 416 015 231
                                      Back in Sydney Monday 16 July


                                      > Some of you might have been privy to THIS news item:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56481
                                      >
                                      > And here's his testimony:
                                      >
                                      > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487
                                      >
                                      > Of course, while he terms homosexuality a "sin" and
                                      > now opposes gay civil liberties, he NEVER once
                                      > mentions that he is 1) no longer sexually attracted to
                                      > guys and 2) that he is sexually attracted to women.
                                      >
                                      > Uh, did I miss something, but doesn't the latter have
                                      > some tenuous relationship to heterosexuality?
                                      >
                                      > We have seen this before, with Noe Guitierez Jr., a
                                      > gay activist-turned Christian ex-gay-turned ex-ex-gay.
                                      > But Guitierez at least did talk about sexual feelings,
                                      > and he wasn't so zealously self-righteous.
                                      >
                                      > The righteous condemnation (and wallowing in guilt) in
                                      > Glatze's piece are virtually ensuring a major public
                                      > embarrassment for the man.
                                      >
                                      > On a certain level, I feel for him, since I can
                                      > understand what he is going through, yet I also cringe
                                      > thinking of the many stupid readers of World Nut Daily
                                      > who truly believe that sexuality issues are so easily
                                      > resolved.
                                      >
                                      > K
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                      > Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're
                                      > surfing.
                                      > http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
                                      >


                                      Anthony Venn-Brown
                                      currently overseas
                                      Call or text +61 416 015 231
                                      Returning Monday 16 July
                                    • Anthony Venn-Brown
                                      Anything But Straight July 3, 2007 The Pious Publishers Are Already In Heaven Charlene Cothran (Venus magazine) and Michael Glatze (Young Gay America magazine
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Jul 4, 2007
                                        Anything But Straight
                                        July 3, 2007

                                        The Pious Publishers Are Already In Heaven

                                        Charlene Cothran (Venus magazine) and Michael Glatze (Young Gay America
                                        magazine editor) were gay niche publishers who discovered that peddling
                                        fiction is much juicer (and potentially more profitable) than selling
                                        straight news on gay life. The newly minted "ex-gay" stars tell us they
                                        have seen the light - unfortunately, it appears to be the spotlight - as
                                        they now parade themselves in the Christian media, pawning their terrific
                                        tales of transformation. Cothran and Glatze explain that they are simply
                                        offering a small snapshot of their new lives, but it sure seems like a
                                        full-blown photo shoot.

                                        Interestingly, both Cothran and Glatze found God and renounced
                                        homosexuality shortly after they split up from what they once considered
                                        their spouses. In a sense, it seems like these break-ups caused nervous
                                        breakdowns where the embittered party tried to punish an "ex" by becoming
                                        ex-gay.

                                        Cothran's conversion occurred after she split up with her life-partner of
                                        ten years. The divorce hurt so badly that Cothran remained celibate for
                                        three years - hoping that they would eventually reconcile. When the
                                        relationship was finally on its deathbed, the former Venus publisher
                                        became born again. How convenient.

                                        Meanwhile, Glatze moved from San Francisco to Halifax, Canada in 2004 with
                                        his partner to start a family, according to "Weird Nut Daily," a right
                                        wing publication. His conversion happened after a pro-gay speech he
                                        delivered at Harvard in 2005 - meaning that that he and his husband likely
                                        split within months of his miraculous makeover.

                                        Instead of checking out potential new dates, Cothran and Glatze simply
                                        checked out, found Jesus, and blamed their personal failures on
                                        homosexuality. Whereas most people handle getting dumped by drinking at
                                        the bar, those susceptible to the ex-gay myth simply drink the right wing
                                        Kool-Aid. They drown their pain in prayer and their sorrow in Scripture,
                                        while rationalizing that if they quit love, they will never hurt so badly
                                        again.

                                        Unfortunately, the opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality for
                                        ex-gays - it is a lifetime of loneliness, despair and celibacy.

                                        "I am physically attracted to the spirit of Christ right now," Cothran
                                        said in an interview with the online website Clay Cane. "I would say after
                                        29 years of walking in the sin of lesbianism that if the devil were going
                                        to try and tempt me that he's probably not going to send a football
                                        player, if you will, because that didn't do it for me. You follow me?"

                                        Yeah, we do follow you - you are a re-closeted lesbian who has given up
                                        sex, hardly an accomplishment or meriting a toxic appearance on Rev. Pat
                                        Robertson's 700 Club.

                                        Likewise, Glatze suggests that he isn't having any luck with the opposite
                                        sex either. "Healing from the Sins of the world will not happen in an
                                        instant, but, it will happen," he said.

                                        Actually, if ex-gay history is any indication, it won't happen, and Glatze
                                        will be quite disillusioned when the promises of "healing" turn out to be
                                        an illusion.

                                        Ironically, the new spokespeople can't even agree on the nature of
                                        homosexuality. Glatze glibly dismisses the love of countless people as
                                        "lust-based." Cothran, on the other hand, diverges from this viewpoint by
                                        saying that, "it's not all about sex. I say that in every interview
                                        heterosexuals have this view that it's all about sex, no, it's not."
                                        (However, she does believe being gay is the work of the Devil)

                                        Equally vacuous is the shallow reason Glatze offers for his homosexuality
                                        - suggesting he was gay because his parents died before he was 20. I
                                        happened to have had lunch with my parents this afternoon. Guess what, I'm
                                        still gay and so are many other people who grew up in traditional
                                        settings.

                                        Glatze also condemns his life as a gay man because of "the darkest days of
                                        late-night parties, substance abuse."

                                        And, I suppose, gay people built all those meth labs dotting the Midwest.
                                        Part of right wing dogma holds that when a straight person snorts a line
                                        it is a personal sin. However, when a gay person does the exact same
                                        thing, it is a communal sin and part of a "lifestyle."

                                        Meanwhile, Cothran does not confine her newfound intolerance to the GLBT
                                        community.

                                        "I know many Muslims, who were firm out what they believe, but got sick
                                        and was given six months...but faced death's door and suddenly they pushed
                                        that Muslim stuff to the side and said - what must I do to be saved!"

                                        Yeah, right. We all know "many" Muslims facing mortality who turn to Jesus
                                        at the last moment. Where does Cothran hangout, the Muslim hospice? What
                                        is it about so-called ex-gays that when they find the Father, they lose
                                        the facts?

                                        While Cothran and Glatze claim to be washing away their sins, it seems
                                        more like brainwashing or a deliberate attempt to strike out at those who
                                        hurt them. Whatever their true reasons - judging by the number of cameras
                                        following them around, I suspect that both already feel like they are in
                                        heaven.



                                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                                        Anything But Straight | www.waynebesen.com

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                                        > interesting Korry.....we will keep an eye on this.
                                        >
                                        > It seems that people always equate an unfillig life with endless
                                        > unsatisfying sexual encounters as being a gay expeience...but its as amuch
                                        > heterosexual as homosexual.
                                        >
                                        > Anthony Venn-Brown
                                        > Currently overseas
                                        > Text or call +61 416 015 231
                                        > Back in Sydney Monday 16 July
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >> Some of you might have been privy to THIS news item:
                                        >>
                                        >> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56481
                                        >>
                                        >> And here's his testimony:
                                        >>
                                        >> http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56487
                                        >>
                                        >> Of course, while he terms homosexuality a "sin" and
                                        >> now opposes gay civil liberties, he NEVER once
                                        >> mentions that he is 1) no longer sexually attracted to
                                        >> guys and 2) that he is sexually attracted to women.
                                        >>
                                        >> Uh, did I miss something, but doesn't the latter have
                                        >> some tenuous relationship to heterosexuality?
                                        >>
                                        >> We have seen this before, with Noe Guitierez Jr., a
                                        >> gay activist-turned Christian ex-gay-turned ex-ex-gay.
                                        >> But Guitierez at least did talk about sexual feelings,
                                        >> and he wasn't so zealously self-righteous.
                                        >>
                                        >> The righteous condemnation (and wallowing in guilt) in
                                        >> Glatze's piece are virtually ensuring a major public
                                        >> embarrassment for the man.
                                        >>
                                        >> On a certain level, I feel for him, since I can
                                        >> understand what he is going through, yet I also cringe
                                        >> thinking of the many stupid readers of World Nut Daily
                                        >> who truly believe that sexuality issues are so easily
                                        >> resolved.
                                        >>
                                        >> K
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                        >> Get the Yahoo! toolbar and be alerted to new email wherever you're
                                        >> surfing.
                                        >> http://new.toolbar.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/index.php
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Anthony Venn-Brown
                                        > currently overseas
                                        > Call or text +61 416 015 231
                                        > Returning Monday 16 July
                                        >


                                        Anthony Venn-Brown
                                        currently overseas
                                        Call or text +61 416 015 231
                                        Returning Monday 16 July
                                      • edwardxderwent
                                        ... wrote: It seems that people always equate an unfillig life with endless unsatisfying sexual encounters as being a gay
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Jul 5, 2007
                                          --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Venn-Brown
                                          <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:

                                          It seems that people always equate an unfillig life with endless
                                          unsatisfying sexual encounters as being a gay expeience...but its as
                                          much heterosexual as homosexual.


                                          totally true, anthony. but would you agree that het's are less likely
                                          to agonise over their endless sexual encounters ?

                                          and, if they do - then the solution is easy - get married and become
                                          virtuous.

                                          or, is that too cynical on my part ?


                                          kenni
                                        • Anthony Venn-Brown
                                          no Kenni not cynical..... a good observation. I guess i m sick of hearing the tragic stories of exgays as if it was thier homosexuality that is causing the
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Jul 5, 2007
                                            no Kenni not cynical..... a good observation. I guess i'm sick of hearing
                                            the tragic stories of 'exgays' as if it was thier homosexuality that is
                                            causing the problem. Possibly it has more to do with sense of morality,
                                            conforming to a 'gay culture' and thinking happiness comes from external
                                            things.


                                            > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Venn-Brown
                                            > <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > It seems that people always equate an unfillig life with endless
                                            > unsatisfying sexual encounters as being a gay expeience...but its as
                                            > much heterosexual as homosexual.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > totally true, anthony. but would you agree that het's are less likely
                                            > to agonise over their endless sexual encounters ?
                                            >
                                            > and, if they do - then the solution is easy - get married and become
                                            > virtuous.
                                            >
                                            > or, is that too cynical on my part ?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > kenni
                                            >
                                            >


                                            Anthony Venn-Brown
                                            currently overseas
                                            Call or text +61 416 015 231
                                            Returning Monday 16 July
                                          • Korry Korry
                                            I have been exchanging correspondence with Michael Glatze. He claims to have had an epiphany, but he has been reluctant to explain his shift in spirituality
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Jul 5, 2007
                                              I have been exchanging correspondence with Michael
                                              Glatze. He claims to have had an epiphany, but he has
                                              been reluctant to explain his shift in spirituality
                                              from Shambhala Buddhism (which is what he was into)
                                              towards Mormonism, particularly odd for a
                                              sophisticated graduate of Dartmouth College. I also
                                              mentioned the ex-ex-gay phenomenom (notably Noe
                                              Gutierez, who went from public gay rights advocate to
                                              public Christian ex-gay to public Christian
                                              ex-ex-gay), but he had nothing to say. He left me with
                                              the impression of someone in the grip of a fervor,
                                              impervious to skepticism or doubt.


                                              --- Anthony Venn-Brown
                                              <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:

                                              > no Kenni not cynical..... a good observation. I
                                              > guess i'm sick of hearing
                                              > the tragic stories of 'exgays' as if it was thier
                                              > homosexuality that is
                                              > causing the problem. Possibly it has more to do with
                                              > sense of morality,
                                              > conforming to a 'gay culture' and thinking happiness
                                              > comes from external
                                              > things.


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                                            • Anthony Venn-Brown
                                              all very strange Korry.......there are some people who will always be on the weird side. ....or alwasys enjoy controversy. ... Anthony Venn-Brown currently
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Jul 6, 2007
                                                all very strange Korry.......there are some people who will always be on
                                                the weird side. ....or alwasys enjoy controversy.


                                                > I have been exchanging correspondence with Michael
                                                > Glatze. He claims to have had an epiphany, but he has
                                                > been reluctant to explain his shift in spirituality
                                                > from Shambhala Buddhism (which is what he was into)
                                                > towards Mormonism, particularly odd for a
                                                > sophisticated graduate of Dartmouth College. I also
                                                > mentioned the ex-ex-gay phenomenom (notably Noe
                                                > Gutierez, who went from public gay rights advocate to
                                                > public Christian ex-gay to public Christian
                                                > ex-ex-gay), but he had nothing to say. He left me with
                                                > the impression of someone in the grip of a fervor,
                                                > impervious to skepticism or doubt.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- Anthony Venn-Brown
                                                > <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> no Kenni not cynical..... a good observation. I
                                                >> guess i'm sick of hearing
                                                >> the tragic stories of 'exgays' as if it was thier
                                                >> homosexuality that is
                                                >> causing the problem. Possibly it has more to do with
                                                >> sense of morality,
                                                >> conforming to a 'gay culture' and thinking happiness
                                                >> comes from external
                                                >> things.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                > Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
                                                > Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
                                                > http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
                                                >


                                                Anthony Venn-Brown
                                                currently overseas
                                                Call or text +61 416 015 231
                                                Returning Monday 16 July
                                              • Korry Korry
                                                ... I think this explains it From this Wikipedia summary of Eric Hoffer’s seminal book, The True Believer : “The premise of the book is as follows: Mass
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Jul 6, 2007
                                                  --- Anthony Venn-Brown
                                                  <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:

                                                  > all very strange Korry.......there are some people
                                                  > who will always be on
                                                  > the weird side. ....or alwasys enjoy controversy.
                                                  >

                                                  I think this explains it From this Wikipedia summary
                                                  of Eric Hoffer’s seminal book, "The True Believer":

                                                  “The premise of the book is as follows: Mass movements
                                                  spread by promising a glorious future, and they need
                                                  people to be willing to sacrifice all for that future,
                                                  including themselves and others. To do that, they need
                                                  to devalue both the past and the present. Therefore,
                                                  mass movements appeal to the frustrated; people who
                                                  are dissatisfied with their current state, but are
                                                  capable of a strong belief in the future and to people
                                                  who want to escape a flawed self by creating an
                                                  imaginary self and joining a compact collective whole
                                                  to escape themselves. Some categories of such people
                                                  are the poor, the misfits, the creative thwarted in
                                                  their endeavors, the inordinately selfish, the
                                                  ambitious facing unlimited opportunities, minorities,
                                                  the bored, and sinners…PART OF HOFFER’S THESIS IS THAT
                                                  MOVEMENTS ARE INTERCHANGEABLE AND THAT FANATICS WILL
                                                  OFTEN FLIP FROM ONE MOVEMENT TO ANOTHER.”

                                                  (Emphasis mine)



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                                                • edwardxderwent
                                                  hey! thnx for posting that korry. i ve got to say, there is a corner of my mind where i keep asking myself how the hell i was so stupid that i got caught up
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Jul 6, 2007
                                                    hey! thnx for posting that korry.

                                                    i've got to say, there is a corner of my mind where i keep asking
                                                    myself how the hell i was so stupid that i got caught up with the joe
                                                    witnesses for so long.

                                                    some things i worked out long ago - i was an impressionable 17 y.o
                                                    kid. worried about my sexuality. that had a lot to do with it.

                                                    more importantly i was idealistic and concerned with the state of the
                                                    world.

                                                    the isaiah chap. 11 type paradisaical prophecies seemed the perfect
                                                    solution. could i trust these prophecies, i asked, already wanting to
                                                    trust them. hence the flimsy evidence offered that the bible is the
                                                    inerrant word of god went largely untested. faith (rather than reason)
                                                    became the basis for belief.

                                                    so yup, i joined up for the long march to the paradise earth where my
                                                    perfect kids could play with perfect lions, and we'd all have enough
                                                    to eat as we gardened in our sunday best and jehovah's fructifying
                                                    (real word) blessing made it all grow free from all pests and we could
                                                    sit and eat without any practical concern of how we may deal with the
                                                    waste products at the end of the digestive process, because 'nice'
                                                    people never talk about shit.


                                                    so thanks mate - that set my on the road to an expanded view of kenni.

                                                    hugs


                                                    kenni


                                                    --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Korry Korry <korrykorrykoan@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > --- Anthony Venn-Brown
                                                    > <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > all very strange Korry.......there are some people
                                                    > > who will always be on
                                                    > > the weird side. ....or alwasys enjoy controversy.
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    > I think this explains it From this Wikipedia summary
                                                    > of Eric Hoffer's seminal book, "The True Believer":
                                                    >
                                                    > "The premise of the book is as follows: Mass movements
                                                    > spread by promising a glorious future, and they need
                                                    > people to be willing to sacrifice all for that future,
                                                    > including themselves and others. To do that, they need
                                                    > to devalue both the past and the present. Therefore,
                                                    > mass movements appeal to the frustrated; people who
                                                    > are dissatisfied with their current state, but are
                                                    > capable of a strong belief in the future and to people
                                                    > who want to escape a flawed self by creating an
                                                    > imaginary self and joining a compact collective whole
                                                    > to escape themselves. Some categories of such people
                                                    > are the poor, the misfits, the creative thwarted in
                                                    > their endeavors, the inordinately selfish, the
                                                    > ambitious facing unlimited opportunities, minorities,
                                                    > the bored, and sinners…PART OF HOFFER'S THESIS IS THAT
                                                    > MOVEMENTS ARE INTERCHANGEABLE AND THAT FANATICS WILL
                                                    > OFTEN FLIP FROM ONE MOVEMENT TO ANOTHER."
                                                    >
                                                    > (Emphasis mine)
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                                    > Finding fabulous fares is fun.
                                                    > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find
                                                    flight and hotel bargains.
                                                    > http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
                                                    >
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