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Re: [Exex-gay] Re: College pasts.... books that have influenced me .....

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  • Dave
    Ah, I didn t catch in past emails that you were a student there as well. :) My reason for attending Liberty is really pretty lame. My father was a Baptist
    Message 1 of 32 , Jun 1, 2006
      Ah, I didn't catch in past emails that you were a student there as well. :) My reason for attending Liberty is really pretty lame. My father was a Baptist minister during my high school years, and was very pro-falwell. They provided a lot of financial aid for pk's (preachers kids), so attending there was really inexpensive. Now that I think about it, I really was just doing as I was told. Academically, I had done horribly in high school, and I didn't really have any ambition about what to do with the rest of my life. It was suggested that I attend Liberty, and I just went along with it. I think at that time, Liberty was accepting just about anybody with a checkbook. That must have been the case if they accepted me. :)
       
      It's kind of odd for me when I hear others talk about being in gay denial. I guess it just depends on what you mean by "denial". I personally never had a real problem dealing with it internally, and I don't remember trying to convince myself that I wasn't gay. All my hang ups about being gay revolved around anyone else finding out. Much of my late teens and 20's were wasted putting my energy into making sure I didn't act gay (stereotypically speaking), or get myself into compromising situations. I guess that's a form of denial though, huh? When I usually think of gay denial, my first thought is guys that adamantly insist they aren't gay. But denial could also encompass "denying" yourself any gratification as well I suppose.
       
      There were a couple teachers there I was really attracted to. I remember more than once sitting in class daydreaming about being in encounters with them while they lectured. Later, I'd really chuckle to myself about it.
       
      What time frame did you attend?

      jsta43catrocks <jsta43catrocks@...> wrote:
      I was just in horrible gay denial while I was there.
      The psych ward visit kind of put things in perspective.

      Why (and how) did you apply to Liberty knowing ahead of time that
      you were still gay?

      --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Dave <jdiv32@...> wrote:
      >
      > I attended my first two years of college - 86-88. I never had any
      real problems when I was there though. I knew I was gay, but I
      wasn't acting on it or anything. And I have a very submissive
      temperament, so it wasn't really a problem for me to just do what I
      was told and not make any waves. It was very structured, tons of
      rules, even down to the nitty, gritty such as what time you have to
      be in bed at night. It was kind of like being in the army.... Jerry
      Falwell's spiritual army. :) I think the structure of it was good
      for me though. I was very academically undisciplined going in, and
      all the rules and regulations sort of forced me to do better
      academically. There wasn't much room for anything else.
      >
      > jsta43catrocks <jsta43catrocks@...> wrote:  When were you at
      Liberty, Dave?
      >
      > (By the way, for the benefit of others out there, the John Boswell
      > book can be ordered through Border's bookstores if it's not on the
      > shelves of their gay section already, but it is REALLY deep and
      > dense.  It's pre-wrapped in plastic so people won't browse through
      it
      > and recognize how deep it really is.)
      >
      >
      > In the mid-80's, Christianity was still in the "gay=AIDS"
      mentality,
      > and I distinctly remember an assembly that dealt with the "evils"
      of
      > rock lyrics -- specifically, Elton John and Bernie Taupin (this
      would
      > have been more "Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy" than
      > anything else).
      >
      > 1)  Christians do seem to take their time in catching up with the
      > rest of the world in SO many things...
      >
      > 2)  I kind of remember trying to go to ex-gay groups even back
      then,
      > but I had to take a subway to a bus to a short walk to a church to
      > get there, making me feel like a outsider within a group of
      > outsiders...
      >
      > 3)  One day, I myself was a student (and was later no longer), but
      > they didn't know how to deal with mental illness back then either,
      so
      > after I ended up on a psychiatric ward in Chicago, they told Mom
      to
      > fly from Ohio and pick me up.
      >
      > 4)  After I came home, I realized that "oh my GAWD, I really AM
      gay. 
      > NOW what do I do?"
      >
      > 5)  I found a larger closet.  Gay bars are much bigger and
      inclusive
      > than churches.
      >
      > 6)  Then I found AA.  Much less closet-like.  Much more
      accepting. 
      > Much more LOVING, for God's sake.  Much less condemning.
      >
      > 7)  Today, I'm finding a balance between a non-denominational
      church
      > and an AA-type of spirituality.
      >
      > 8)  Can you identify with any of this?
      >
      >
      > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Dave <jdiv32@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thanks for responding. I can empathize. I'm not sure if I
      mentioned
      > this previously, but I attended Liberty University for several
      years.
      > For those who don't know, that's Jerry Falwells claim to fame (or
      at
      > least part of it.) I can't say while I was there that I ever
      attended
      > classes or heard sermons (of which there were many) specifically
      > focused on homosexuality, but the intolerance was definitely
      clear.
      > Mostly it was just peppered in with everything else. I do remember
      a
      > guy in my dorm being discovered by confiding in a friend.
      > His "friend" immediately ran to the dorm director, who then went
      up
      > the chain of command accordingly. He was removed from school
      > overnight. It was almost like he was erased or something. One day
      > he's a student, the next it was like he never existed. It sent a
      > clear message to me and any other gay kids who were there, of
      which
      > I'm sure there were probably quite a few....
      > >
      > > jsta43catrocks <jsta43catrocks@> wrote:  Dave:
      > >
      > > Again, sorry that it took until May to answer March:
      > >
      > > I went to Moody Bible Institute in Chicago 21 years ago.
      > >
      > > I'm still trying to unclobber the clobbered.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Dave <jdiv32@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for the book recommendation. I've been reading a
      variety
      > of
      > > gay oriented books the past couple years, but have not come
      across
      > > this one yet. So I'll add it to my list of potentials. :)
      > > >   
      > > >   Along the same lines, a while ago someone recommended a book
      > > titled "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality" by
      John
      > > Boswell. I have the book, but haven't worked my way through it
      yet,
      > > so I can't necessarily tell you whether it's good or not. I do
      plan
      > > to read it! I've just gotten caught up with other books at the
      > > moment. :) I know the author is very well known in certain
      circles,
      > > and I know based on what I've been told (and from the inside
      cover)
      > > that it provides a good, accurate description of the history of
      > > attitudes towards homosexuality in western Europe up to the 14th
      > > century. I know, I know... it sounds very exciting!!
      > > >   
      > > >   A while ago, I also found a small book titled "The Children
      are
      > > Free" by Jeff Miner and John Tyler Connoley. The premise behind
      the
      > > book is taking the six "clobber passages"  most Christians use
      > > against homosexuals and re-evaluating them in a way to show that
      > the
      > > Bible really does not speak negatively of homosexuality. It was
      an
      > > interesting book, but I constantly struggle with the notion
      > > of "interpreting" scripture in a way that suits what an
      > > individual "wants". I grew up in a Baptist church, and I know
      it's
      > > very easy for people to freely quote scripture against things
      that
      > > have no bearing on themselves personally. But suddenly, when the
      > > Bible infers something about themselves that they do not
      > necessarily
      > > want to change, THEN they want to have a big discussion about
      what
      > > the scripture is really saying. :) So I guess even though at my
      > core
      > > level I do not think God is going to condemn me for something I
      > have
      > > no control over, it's still difficult for me to accept re-
      > > interpretations of
      > > >  certain Biblical texts (based on what I grew up with). I
      guess
      > > that would classify me as being subject to spiritual abuse, huh?
      > > Anyone read this book or have any thoughts?
      > > >   
      > > >   Dave
      > > >
      > > > edwardxderwent <edwardxderwent@> wrote:
      > > >   i've been wanting to share my thoughts on some of the books
      in
      > > my
      > > > library - and why i consider they have value to me...
      > > >
      > > > for those who are newer, i became a joey witness at around age
      > 17,
      > > > probably using religion as a sort of closet, ashamed of my
      > > attraction
      > > > to other males.
      > > >
      > > > 17 years ago i was thrown out of the joey witnesses, and had
      to
      > > find
      > > > a road to sanity and purpose. i did...
      > > >
      > > > having broken the chains of faith, it became important to know
      > > what
      > > > my sexual feelings meant (what it meant to be a gay man).
      > > >
      > > > in one of sydney's big deparment stores i found a copy of a
      book
      > > > called ' a queer reader',  edited by a patrick higgins.
      > > >
      > > > it's a kind of history without narrative, telling thru
      extracts
      > > from
      > > > other writers and writings,  the history of homosexuality.
      > > >
      > > > thru this book i first came to understand just how widespread
      > > > homosexuality really is, permeating man's history (tho often
      > > subject
      > > > to determined efforts to destroy all knowledge of us). i've
      got a
      > > lot
      > > > to thank this book for... it's pointed me in many directions
      to
      > > look
      > > > in my search for understanding of myself.
      > > >
      > > > it first opened my eyes to a glimpse of the 'queer' universe
      and
      > > > encouraged me to enter and explore the wonders of being gay.
      from
      > > > that book as a starting point i had directions of where to
      look
      > > for
      > > > more information.
      > > >
      > > > it's a book i'd recommend to anyone wanting an overview of
      > > homosexual
      > > > history from classical greece to modern times.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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    • edwardxderwent
      the sydney morning herald prints this article on a gay guy in the current Big Brother 2006 show. (note: havn t been watching - but it seems to attract a lot of
      Message 32 of 32 , Jun 8, 2006
        the sydney morning herald prints this article on a gay guy in the
        current Big Brother 2006 show.

        (note: havn't been watching - but it seems to attract a lot of
        viewers in it's target segment)

        ------

        The only gay in the house
        Tim Hunter
        Sydney Morning Herald
        June 8, 2006

        IN AN attempt to reinvigorate Big Brother, now in its sixth year on
        Australian television, the producers have decided to keep both the
        housemates and audiences on their toes. Using an overriding theme of
        secrets and lies, they're determined to create conflict, drama,
        shock, fights and tears - and have been partially successful.
        Thrown into the mix this year was a gay man, David. He's not the
        first, of course. There was Johnny in the first series, and
        subsequent series have had Nathan and Jamie, but there's not been a
        gay housemate for a couple of years.
        So is David the "token gay" again? Or is his role in the house more
        complex than that? Did he apply for the show intending to educate
        middle Australia about the lives of gay men? Or is he just a regular
        Aussie guy who happens to be gay?

        Maybe it's both. David kept his sexuality quiet initially. Whether
        this was his or Big Brother's decision isn't entirely clear, but it
        was certainly promoted as the show's first big "secret" reveal. Not
        that David was deliberately misleading his new housemates; he just
        didn't answer direct questions and hedged the issue - just like many
        other gay men do. And while Big Brother dropped well-edited hints to
        viewers, gay-dars across Australia were going off and the gay press
        found and printed photos confirming David's sexuality, the housemates
        didn't seem to have a clue.
        As David later explained when he did "come out", he wanted to be
        regarded and accepted as a person first, rather than a sexuality, the
        first hint that he knew exactly what he was doing, and that his plan
        on entering the house was to demonstrate that gay people are people
        too.

        The Big Brother house brings the housemates - and many viewers - into
        contact with people they wouldn't normally associate with. Can you
        imagine schemester Michael socialising with hippy mum Karen? Or
        labourer Ashley hanging out with hairdresser Rob?

        Apart from Rob, it is possible few of the housemates would have had
        much contact with a gay man. And David has certainly warmed to the
        role of educator and gay spokesman.

        He's demonstrated how difficult and emotional it can be to come out
        as gay, he's discussed feeling like a "second-class citizen" because
        gay marriage isn't legal, and while talking about teen suicides in
        the country - many of which are gay-related - he even admitted he'd
        contemplated taking his own life. He's enlightened his fellow
        housemates about such issues, often moving them to tears. Even Dino,
        the very dominant, very heterosexual alpha male, admitted David had
        opened his eyes; something that wouldn't have happened to him outside
        the house.

        On a lighter note, David's also been educating the housemates on the
        intricacies of gay sex in frank discussions that can only make it to
        Big Brother's Adults Only show.

        Even though David has educated the house - and presumably more than a
        million Australians - about being gay, he still felt isolated and
        alone. Until intruder Rob, the gay hairdresser, entered the house.
        For the first time, there were two gay men in the Australian Big
        Brother house.

        There are no sexual sparks between them but there is definitely a
        bond. In many ways, they're poles apart: David isn't exactly a
        mincing queen, he's a regular guy, but Rob is definitely more camp,
        more "femme", as he said. But Rob is someone who understands David -
        who he doesn't have to explain or justify himself to - and someone he
        can relax with and be more himself. They've perved on and rated the
        other male housemates together, danced with each other and had
        extended hammock chats. David's even lapsed into a bit of campery
        with Rob. But that's about as far as it will go. It's the
        ultimate "safe" relationship, which in a way is not a bad thing.
        While other housemates are all over each other, the fact the two gay
        men remain platonic with each other defies the stereotypes some of
        the more extreme commentators like to propagate.

        And what of the gay community's response to David as self-appointed
        spokesperson? It's a hotly debated topic in the gay media. Some say
        they don't need him - or want him - as their voice, others applaud
        his bravery and still others wonder why he spends all his time in the
        house talking about being gay.

        Or is it all further evidence of Big Brother's editing finger at work?
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