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RE: [Exex-gay] Anthony's book

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  • Drew VanDyche
    What about offering some copies to bid on, on ebay? I really want to read it, just can t afford it right now. I will budget it for March. I wonder what it
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 5, 2005
      What about offering some copies to bid on, on ebay?
      I really want to read it, just can't afford it right now. I will budget it for March.
      I wonder what it would take to get it into a library over here?
      Just some thoughts.
      Drew

      Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:

      Sorry Drew . Not at the moment. My publisher is working on it but it will take a while. Nothing definite though. I believe God wants it over there�..so it will only be a matter of time��..I won�t give up. Some people in my group are trying to get it into COH bookshop.

       

      I did hear of someone in New York who went to a book seller who said they could order it in.

       

      I�m not sure if you realize the prices on my website are in AUD$ so it works out aprox 70% in US$.

       

      Hope this helps

       

      Anthony

      Moderator

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay

      My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted, celebrated, and lived with integrity.

       


      From: Drew VanDyche [mailto:vandyche@...]
      Sent: Sunday, 6 February 2005 12:05
      To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Exex-gay] Anthony 's book

       

      Hey Anthony :
      Is there a place to buy your book "a life of unlearning" here in the states where i don't have to pay all that shipping? If not, we should find a way to make that happen.

      Thanks,

      Drew

      Drew VanDyche <vandyche@...> wrote:

      thanks will do...

      Dennis <tpaw68@...> wrote:

       

      Check out www.amazon.com

       

      Many times they have used books on sale at very reasonable pricesdo a search for the book title or by author and the results will yield the new book price plus a used book price if there any used items for sale.  Also, it may even be available for check out at a public library.

       

      Hope this helps.


      From: Drew VanDyche [mailto:vandyche@...]
      Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 5:51 PM
      To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Exex-gay] re therapy

       

      i wonder if there are any cheap copies of Wayne 's book on eastbay. Then we could give them away when we need to...

      Dennis <tpaw68@...> wrote:

      Alan,

       

      So glad you got Wayne Besen s book.  I was the one who recommended the book and Anthony seconded the recommendation.  I met Wayne a few years ago when he was in Dallas .  He had just released the book.  He is a former staffer with the Human Rights Campaign and some of the information contained in the book was when he was still with HRC and getting the information on the Ex-gay ministries while undercover.

       

      Hugs to all,

      Dennis

       


      From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@...]
      Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:41 AM
      To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Exex-gay] re therapy

       

      Hi,

      thanks for all the responses on therapy - seems the guy who spoke to me is in his own cloud cuckoo land.  I've just started to read the book, "Anything but straight" that someone recommended.  Its a big eye-opener!  I'm so glad that I never did get involved in the ex-gay ministry, there were a couple of times when I thought about it.

      Even though last year was very difficult for me, I'm now beginning to be glad that it happened, because it forced me to think more about who I am and for me to break out of the vicious cycle of "homosexuality is a sin, I've just committed a sin, I'm evil and god hates me" mould....I've been fortunate enough to have found a community that is accepting of gay people (I've not come out to them though ;)) that also has a good theological understanding of the bible - it must be terrible for those who think they are doomed to hell because of something they cant change.

      Thanks for the list and the links (even though they dont seem to work!).

      Cheers,

      alan


      --

      Whatever you Wanadoo:
      http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/

      This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at: http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm

       


      Yahoo! Groups Links

       

       

      Drew VanDyche
      aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...

       

       

      Drew VanDyche
      aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...

       

      Drew VanDyche
      aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...

       



      Drew VanDyche
      aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
    • Aaron
      - I looked for it, it seem do not have that book listed.. sorry I did want to get a hold of that book for less money. Aaron ... the new ... Also, ... Then we
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 5, 2005
        - I looked for it, it seem do not have that book listed.. sorry I did
        want to get a hold of that book for less money.
        Aaron






        -- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis" <tpaw68@s...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Check out www.amazon.com <http://www.amazon.com/>
        >
        >
        >
        > Many times they have used books on sale at very reasonable prices.do a
        > search for the book title or by author and the results will yield
        the new
        > book price plus a used book price if there any used items for sale.
        Also,
        > it may even be available for check out at a public library.
        >
        >
        >
        > Hope this helps.
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: Drew VanDyche [mailto:vandyche@y...]
        > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 5:51 PM
        > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: RE: [Exex-gay] re therapy
        >
        >
        >
        > i wonder if there are any cheap copies of Wayne's book on eastbay.
        Then we
        > could give them away when we need to...
        >
        > Dennis <tpaw68@s...> wrote:
        >
        > Alan,
        >
        >
        >
        > So glad you got Wayne Besens book. I was the one who recommended
        the book
        > and Anthony seconded the recommendation. I met Wayne a few years
        ago when
        > he was in Dallas. He had just released the book. He is a former
        staffer
        > with the Human Rights Campaign and some of the information contained
        in the
        > book was when he was still with HRC and getting the information on the
        > Ex-gay ministries while undercover.
        >
        >
        >
        > Hugs to all,
        >
        > Dennis
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
        > Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 7:41 AM
        > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Exex-gay] re therapy
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > thanks for all the responses on therapy - seems the guy who spoke to
        me is
        > in his own cloud cuckoo land. I've just started to read the book,
        "Anything
        > but straight" that someone recommended. Its a big eye-opener! I'm
        so glad
        > that I never did get involved in the ex-gay ministry, there were a
        couple of
        > times when I thought about it.
        >
        > Even though last year was very difficult for me, I'm now beginning to be
        > glad that it happened, because it forced me to think more about who
        I am and
        > for me to break out of the vicious cycle of "homosexuality is a sin,
        I've
        > just committed a sin, I'm evil and god hates me" mould....I've been
        > fortunate enough to have found a community that is accepting of gay
        people
        > (I've not come out to them though ;)) that also has a good theological
        > understanding of the bible - it must be terrible for those who think
        they
        > are doomed to hell because of something they cant change.
        >
        > Thanks for the list and the links (even though they dont seem to work!).
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > alan
        >
        >
        > --
        >
        > Whatever you Wanadoo:
        > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
        >
        > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
        > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
        >
        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Drew VanDyche
        > aka: Drewcifer, Drewski, Drewblood...
        >
        > http://profiles.yahoo.com/vandyche
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
        >
        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
      • edwardxderwent
        Avalokitesvara at The 21st Street Baths by Toby Johnson One night in the late 1970s, I checked into the 21st Street Baths a few blocks from my San Francisco
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 7, 2005
          Avalokitesvara at The 21st Street Baths


          by Toby Johnson


          One night in the late 1970s, I checked into the 21st Street Baths a
          few blocks from my San Francisco Noe Valley apartment. Within five
          minutes I felt I'd made a mistake. Nobody looked attractive to me and
          nobody seemed to find me attractive. There was only one young man I
          was interested in and he didn't pay any notice of me.

          I watched TV awhile, delaying in case somebody else might show up. I
          wondered why I'd come. Earlier I'd been feeling lonely. I really need
          to be touched, I'd said to myself. I could still feel the neediness
          all through my chest and shoulders. I wasn't ready to leave yet.

          I went into one of the common rooms upstairs. It was a large dark
          space with cushioned platforms around the walls. As I made my way
          into the darkness, a hand reached out and touched me on the thigh. I
          looked, but could not see who was there. I automatically resisted.
          What if I were being groped by some unattractive troll?

          Well, no wonder you're lonely, I said to myself. If anybody chooses
          you, you reflexively assume you wouldn't want them. You're caught in
          the webs of karma: getting rejected because you reject others.



          As my eyes adjusted, I saw it was the young man I'd noticed earlier.
          I moved closer. We started in on the kind of impersonal play that
          goes on in the orgy room at a bathhouse, but then soon changed tempo.
          We lay down on the platform, side by side, facing each other, holding
          one another tenderly. Innocently violating the stolid silence, the
          young man introduced himself to me as Jim. He said, "You seem sad,"
          and asked how I was doing.

          Surprised by the opportunity for communication, wanting more from
          this meeting than just an ejaculation--and sensing the openness on
          Jim's part, I told him about my earlier loneliness and about my
          disappointment with the baths as any sort of remedy. Jim listened
          carefully. Occasionally he murmured or squeezed me warmly to let me
          know he was paying attention.

          Surprising myself with the depth of honesty I displayed, I started
          talking about my spiritual life. I told him about my past as a
          Catholic seminarian and my conversion, by way of Carl Jung and Joseph
          Campbell to a kind of New Age Buddhism. I recounted several major
          spiritual experiences in my life, acknowleding that I found the clash
          between my spirituality and my liberated gay sexuality somewhat
          confusing.

          We lay together in an embrace that was not entirely sexual, but was
          not unsexual either. We occasionally shifted in one another's arms
          sliding slowly against each other to renew the touch. I felt his
          flesh, warm and slightly electric, against my chest. I felt our cocks
          lying full but not hard between us against our bellies.

          He said he was a switchboard operator at Langley Porter, the psych
          hospital at U.C. San Francisco, but didn't say much else about
          himself--other than that he too struggled with joining his
          spirituality and his sexuality. He commended me on being spiritually
          inclined and coaxed me to talk some more.

          I told him of my effort to live a good life, to be compassionate and
          sensitive to other people, to participate in my culture and in my
          society, to pursue a right livelihood as a gay counselor, to be
          politically and ecologically aware, to live responsibly, and not to
          cause harm or pain--to discover how to be a saint as a modern gay
          man. I told him about the sorrow that seemed to come to me, inspite
          of my good efforts, instead of joy.

          Almost lecturing him, assuming he wouldn't know about such things, I
          explained how Buddhism teaches that all existence is sorrowful. I
          lamented the pang of sorrow I found in being gay--not from guilt, but
          from the frustration of seeing such sexual beauty all around me and
          feeling--on the ego level--inadequate to participate, but beyond that-
          -on some metaphysical level--simply unable to possess it all.

          "So many men, so little time," he rejoined jokingly with one of the
          war cries of the Sexual Revolution.

          "Yes, but on a much deeper level," I replied. "It's like I want to be
          everybody and know their lives from inside, feel their flesh as my
          own."

          I told Jim about my obsession with a particular Mahayana Buddhist
          myth. "The Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara was this enlightened being who
          chose to renounce nirvana and remain within the cycles of
          reincarnation," I explained. "Out of generosity, he vowed to take
          upon himself the suffering of the world in order to bring all beings
          to nirvana with him. He's a world savior, a little like Jesus." I
          cited the John and Mimi Fariña folk song "Pack Up Your Sorrows" as an
          example of this myth: "If somehow you could pack up your sorrows and
          give them all to me, you would lose them; I know how to use them,
          give them all to me."

          "When I first came across this story, maybe without realizing what I
          was doing," I confided, "in a burst of fervor I committed myself to
          this myth. I mean I made the bodhisattva's vow. Does that mean I'm
          doomed to suffer? And is the suffering a gay man gets these days the
          loneliness and isolation that comes with living in a sexually active
          environment, maybe getting sex but never quite finding the love, just
          the frustration and disappointment?" (This was in the 1970s, before
          AIDS, and the metaphysical suffering of the gay community had not yet
          become physically manifest in sorrowful deaths all around us as it
          would a few years later.)

          "Is this a holy way to live?" I asked plaintively.

          "That's a pretty dismal interpretation of the story," Jim
          answered. "Isn't a better interpretation of that myth that since the
          bodhisattva took on everyone's incarnation, he is the One Being that
          is reincarnating. You can rejoice that he accepted your karma. You
          are him. You are everybody. The Being in you is the Being in
          everybody else. Embracing the suffering of the world doesn't mean
          being unhappy. It means deciding that everything is great just the
          way it is, that life is worth choosing--in spite of sorrow.

          "The Bodhisattva took on the suffering of the world in order to
          transform it and save sentient beings from suffering, not to glorify
          suffering and get people to feel guilty about being happy and punish
          themselves. That sounds more like a Christian misinterpretation of
          the story than the bodhisattva wisdom."

          I was surprised by his answer. "You know about the bodhisattva?" I
          asked quzzically.

          "Yes, I know," Jim said, smiling enigmatically in the faint red light
          of the orgy room.

          "You mean you know about Buddhism?"

          "I mean, I know about accepting everyone's incarnations."

          "You know about Avalokitesvara?"

          Jim looked into my eyes with an oddly profound gaze. "I know I am
          Avalokitesvara," he said.

          "You mean like we all are?" I answered.

          "Like I am."



          All of a sudden, to my dismay, I understood this man to be saying not
          simply that, like all beings, he was a manifestation of the Central
          Self that in Mahayana Buddhism is mythologized in the story of the
          Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara, but that he was, in a unique way, a
          specific incarnation of that divine being.

          I felt my world whirling out of control. I was in the presence of one
          of my most beloved of gods--right there in the flesh: Avalokitesvara
          holding me close, in the orgy room at the 21st Street Baths. A thrill
          of excitement, mystical wonder, bewilderment, and consolation coursed
          through me.

          I experienced intentionally linking my soul with that of this other
          man, chakra by chakra. I felt an enormous rush of energy pouring
          through me--body and soul. In a certain way you could say I was
          falling in love and feeling love's joy.

          My head was spinning. I seemed to have entered into some
          truly "underworld" state in which the gods took on real flesh. I
          wondered if I'd gotten delusional. I wondered if we were both just
          playing a game with one another, spinning out the implications of a
          mythology we both happened to know about.. Maybe he was just another
          stoned hippie like me carrying on with all this new age stuff.

          What did it matter? I asked myself. Whatever was happening, it
          certainly was marvelous. Far more than just having found somebody to
          have sex with. This wasn't even exactly "sex," but it was fully
          satisfying of the loneliness I'd felt earlier. Whoever he was, he was
          manifesting the bodhisattva truth. What did it matter?

          Almost as if addressing my bewilderment, Jim said, "Have faith."

          "What does that mean?" I asked.

          "Faith that things are never totally true or totally false, faith
          that life won't destroy us, that nothing really matters because it's
          all okay." He laughed. "Live in the present. Don't try to possess the
          world, have faith in the world."

          Then abruptly he announced, "It's time for me to be going now."

          "Can I see you again?" I asked, already feeling bereft.

          "Don't cling," he replied, in a way that sounded more like wisdom
          teaching than rejection.

          A pang of loss struck me, but I understood the spiritual lesson to
          live in the present and not to be attached, to enjoy the joy I was
          feeling without trying to possess it.



          The incident changed me. It affirmed my belief in a healthy spiritual
          life lived in the styles of modern gay culture. It caused me
          afterwards to take time in gay settings to bless the other men and
          women, wishing grace for them, perceiving them as manifestations of
          the One Being, intending for them that they also discover their god
          manifesting to them in the form of another gay person to show them
          love and bring them joy.
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