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RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.

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  • Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach
    Thanks Edward. Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many people I find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
    Message 1 of 18 , Jan 18, 2005
      Thanks Edward.

      Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many people I
      find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to seeing
      them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication would
      be different and get an entirely different outcome.

      I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our churches
      forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most churches
      today this is no longer an issue.

      It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my life
      time.

      We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are. People who
      have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to be
      attracted to the same sex.

      Anthony
      Moderator and author of:
      'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
      Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian Business
      Association
      To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
      My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
      forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted,
      celebrated, and lived with integrity.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19
      To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


      --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown" <anthony.venn-
      brown@p...> wrote:
      >
      > Amen
      >
      > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I do
      > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and convert
      > them to loving GLBT people.
      >
      >
      > anthony
      >


      just an opinion...

      it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.







      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Legal Alien
      Hi, its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember seeing the godhatesfaggots web site and being astounded that anyone professing love
      Message 2 of 18 , Jan 18, 2005
        Hi,

        its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember seeing the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone professing love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.

        My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself) that the Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality. Of course, there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of their faith go, the whole thing will collapse. It took my falling in love with a man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to show me that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true faith. I now realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily inspired for all time.

        On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be Gay" by William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through the ages and across cultures. Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed it so strongly. The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is very good reading (its not Christian either).

        Cheers for now.

        Alan

        ========================================
        Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
        From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach" <anthony.venn-brown@...>
        To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
        Copy to :
        Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


        <html><body>



        <tt>
        Thanks Edward.<BR>
        <BR>
        Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many people I<BR>
        find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to seeing<BR>
        them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication would<BR>
        be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
        <BR>
        I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our churches<BR>
        forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most churches<BR>
        today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
        <BR>
        It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my life<BR>
        time.<BR>
        <BR>
        We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are. People who<BR>
        have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to be<BR>
        attracted to the same sex.<BR>
        <BR>
        Anthony<BR>
        Moderator and author of:<BR>
        'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'<BR>
        Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian Business<BR>
        Association<BR>
        To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
        <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay</a><BR>
        My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be<BR>
        forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted,<BR>
        celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
        <BR>
        -----Original Message-----<BR>
        From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@...]<BR>
        Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
        To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
        Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown" <anthony.venn-<BR>
        brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
        ><BR>
        > Amen<BR>
        ><BR>
        > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I do<BR>
        > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and convert<BR>
        > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
        ><BR>
        ><BR>
        > anthony<BR>
        ><BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        just an opinion...<BR>
        <BR>
        it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>
        </tt>




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      • Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach
        Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have you ever been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes pathetic as people
        Message 3 of 18 , Jan 18, 2005
          Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have you ever
          been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes pathetic
          as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they struggle
          to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.

          I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.

          Anthony
          Moderator and author of:
          'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
          Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian Business
          Association
          To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
          My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
          forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted,
          celebrated, and lived with integrity.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
          To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


          Hi,

          its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember seeing
          the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone professing
          love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.

          My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself) that the
          Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality. Of course,
          there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
          "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of their
          faith go, the whole thing will collapse. It took my falling in love with a
          man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to show me
          that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true faith. I now
          realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
          different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily inspired
          for all time.

          On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be Gay" by
          William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through the ages
          and across cultures. Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
          cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
          positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed it so
          strongly. The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is very
          good reading (its not Christian either).

          Cheers for now.

          Alan

          ========================================
          Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
          From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
          <anthony.venn-brown@...>
          To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
          Copy to :
          Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


          <html><body>



          <tt>
          Thanks Edward.<BR>
          <BR>
          Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many people
          I<BR>
          find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
          seeing<BR>
          them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
          would<BR>
          be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
          <BR>
          I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
          churches<BR>
          forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most churches<BR>
          today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
          <BR>
          It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
          life<BR>
          time.<BR>
          <BR>
          We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are. People
          who<BR>
          have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
          be<BR>
          attracted to the same sex.<BR>
          <BR>
          Anthony<BR>
          Moderator and author of:<BR>
          'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'<BR>
          Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
          Business<BR>
          Association<BR>
          To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
          <a
          href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
          Exex-gay</a><BR>
          My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be<BR>
          forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
          accepted,<BR>
          celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
          <BR>
          -----Original Message-----<BR>
          From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@...]<BR>
          Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
          To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
          Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown" <anthony.venn-<BR>
          brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
          ><BR>
          > Amen<BR>
          ><BR>
          > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I do<BR>
          > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and convert<BR>
          > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
          ><BR>
          ><BR>
          > anthony<BR>
          ><BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          just an opinion...<BR>
          <BR>
          it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          <BR>
          </tt>




          <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

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          <tt><hr width="500">
          <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
          <ul>
          <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
          href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group
          /Exex-gay/</a><br>
          <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
          href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
          gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
          <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
          href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
          </ul>
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        • Andrew Jones
          Hi Tony & Group There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves inawful pain trying to chcange their sexual orientation. I have tried 3 times
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 18, 2005
            Hi Tony & Group
             
            There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves inawful pain trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
             
            I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
            It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time because I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
             
            I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote, Victoria. The senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that day.
            Did it work - absolutley not!
            They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if Liberace was told that ... lol.
             
            Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say for now I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be something they wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
             
            If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is going give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
             
            Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people. God never intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual orientation is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he loves me as a gay man.
             
            Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not true to core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected to the spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church would be set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
             
            Andrew

            Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:
            Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have you ever
            been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes pathetic
            as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they struggle
            to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.

            I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.

            Anthony
            Moderator and author of:
            'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
            Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian Business
            Association
            To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
            My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
            forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted,
            celebrated, and lived with integrity.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
            To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


            Hi,

            its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember seeing
            the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone professing
            love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.

            My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself) that the
            Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality.   Of course,
            there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
            "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of their
            faith go, the whole thing will collapse.  It took my falling in love with a
            man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to show me
            that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true faith.  I now
            realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
            different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily inspired
            for all time.

            On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be Gay" by
            William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through the ages
            and across cultures.  Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
            cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
            positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed it so
            strongly.  The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is very
            good reading (its not Christian either).

            Cheers for now.

            Alan

            ========================================
            Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
            From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
            <anthony.venn-brown@...>
            To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
            Copy to :
            Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


            <html><body>



            <tt>
            Thanks Edward.<BR>
            <BR>
            Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many people
            I<BR>
            find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
            seeing<BR>
            them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
            would<BR>
            be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
            <BR>
            I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
            churches<BR>
            forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most churches<BR>
            today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
            <BR>
            It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
            life<BR>
            time.<BR>
            <BR>
            We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are. People
            who<BR>
            have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
            be<BR>
            attracted to the same sex.<BR>
            <BR>
            Anthony<BR>
            Moderator and author of:<BR>
            'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'<BR>
            Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
            Business<BR>
            Association<BR>
            To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
            <a
            href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
            Exex-gay</a><BR>
            My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be<BR>
            forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
            accepted,<BR>
            celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
            <BR>
            -----Original Message-----<BR>
            From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@...]<BR>
            Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
            To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
            Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown" <anthony.venn-<BR>
            brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
            ><BR>
            > Amen<BR>
            ><BR>
            > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I do<BR>
            > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and convert<BR>
            > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
            ><BR>
            ><BR>
            > anthony<BR>
            ><BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            just an opinion...<BR>
            <BR>
            it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            <BR>
            </tt>




            <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->

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            <tt><hr width="500">
            <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
            <ul>
            <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
            href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/">http://groups.yahoo.com/group
            /Exex-gay/</a><br>
            <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
            href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
            gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
            <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
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            This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
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            Yahoo! Groups Links












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          • Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach
            HI Andrew Thanks for your thoughts and intro. We look forward to hearing more form you in the future. Anthony Moderator and author of: A Life of Unlearning
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 19, 2005

              HI Andrew

               

              Thanks for your thoughts and intro.  We look forward to hearing more form you in the future.

               

              Anthony

              Moderator and author of:

              'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'

              Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian Business Association

              To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay

              My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted, celebrated, and lived with integrity.

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Andrew Jones [mailto:acj1968@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
              To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.

               

              Hi Tony & Group

               

              There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves inawful pain trying to chcange their sexual orientation.

               

              I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.

              It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time because I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!

               

              I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote, Victoria. The senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that day.

              Did it work - absolutley not!

              They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if Liberace was told that ... lol.

               

              Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say for now I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be something they wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.

               

              If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is going give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.

               

              Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people. God never intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual orientation is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he loves me as a gay man.

               

              Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not true to core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected to the spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church would be set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.

               

              Andrew

              Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:

              Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have you ever
              been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes pathetic
              as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they struggle
              to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.

              I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.

              Anthony
              Moderator and author of:
              'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
              Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian Business
              Association
              To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
              My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
              forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted,
              celebrated, and lived with integrity.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
              To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


              Hi,

              its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember seeing
              the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone professing
              love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.

              My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself) that the
              Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality.   Of course,
              there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
              "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of their
              faith go, the whole thing will collapse.  It took my falling in love with a
              man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to show me
              that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true faith.  I now
              realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
              different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily inspired
              for all time.

              On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be Gay" by
              William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through the ages
              and across cultures.  Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
              cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
              positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed it so
              strongly.  The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is very
              good reading (its not Christian either).

              Cheers for now.

              Alan

              ========================================
              Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
              From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
              <anthony.venn-brown@...>
              To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
              Copy to :
              Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


              <html><body>



              <tt>
              Thanks Edward.<BR>
              <BR>
              Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many people
              I<BR>
              find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
              seeing<BR>
              them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
              would<BR>
              be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
              <BR>
              I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
              churches<BR>
              forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most churches<BR>
              today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
              <BR>
              It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
              life<BR>
              time.<BR>
              <BR>
              We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are. People
              who<BR>
              have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
              be<BR>
              attracted to the same sex.<BR>
              <BR>
              Anthony<BR>
              Moderator and author of:<BR>
              'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'<BR>
              Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
              Business<BR>
              Association<BR>
              To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
              <a
              href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
              Exex-gay</a><BR>
              My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be<BR>
              forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
              accepted,<BR>
              celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
              <BR>
              -----Original Message-----<BR>
              From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@...]<BR>
              Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
              To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
              Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown" <anthony.venn-<BR>
              brown@p...> wrote:<BR>

              ><BR>
              > Amen<BR>
              ><BR>
              > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
              do<BR>
              > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and
              convert<BR>
              > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
              ><BR>
              ><BR>
              > anthony<BR>
              ><BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              just an opinion...<BR>
              <BR>
              it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>
              </tt>




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              /Exex-gay/</a><br>
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            • Rick
              Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I ve been seriously busy as I m back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering Technology program at
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 21, 2005
                Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I've been seriously
                busy as I'm back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering
                Technology program at the University of Toledo in Toledo, Ohio. There
                is a gay/lesbian/bi/transgener student organization on campus, but
                I've yet to join up. I also have experienced such hatred and bigotry
                from those who claim to be christians. I spent over 9 years in
                personal counseling in an attempt to "change" my sexuality with no
                success. Desert Stream Ministries is something I know quite well. I
                feel these ministries are unhealthy, because they will shame you if
                you cannot change. They will say things like, "well, you don't have
                enough faith, or you're not being serious enough." What I remember
                seeing there was a lot of guys and girls who were just gay and they
                were putting themselves through horrible emotional pain because they
                felt they needed to change in order to be accepted. This is so sad. If
                someone really wants to try and change, that is their choice. But for
                me, it did not work and many others have felt the same thing. You
                can't change what you were meant to be. All you can do is strive to
                live it honestly and with integrity. I'm celibate, but it's so hard to
                stay this way. In a sense, I am denying my desires which is not
                healthy emotionally or psychologically. However I don't want to just
                go out and find someone to have empty sex with either. But dealing
                with these feelings can be tough. I've come a long way, there were
                times in the past when I felt so guilty for even looking at men. I
                would shame myself and try not to notice them. How silly it was now
                that I look back on it. If I had just listened to what the inner voice
                was saying to me, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief. But
                a lot of times we are so afraid of the truth. We hide from ourselves
                the reality of who we are for various reasons. I'm thankful that I do
                not feel that guilt anymore over being attracted to other men. But
                it's been a long road. Anthony, thanks for allowing me to be a part of
                things here.

                Rick




                --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                > HI Andrew
                >
                > Thanks for your thoughts and intro. We look forward to hearing more
                form
                > you in the future.
                >
                > Anthony
                > Moderator and author of:
                > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                Business
                > Association
                > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here
                > <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html> .
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/>
                > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                accepted,
                > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Andrew
                Jones [mailto:acj1968@y...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
                > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                >
                > Hi Tony & Group
                >
                > There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves
                inawful pain
                > trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
                >
                > I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
                > It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time
                because
                > I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
                >
                > I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote, Victoria. The
                > senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that day.
                > Did it work - absolutley not!
                > They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if
                Liberace
                > was told that ... lol.
                >
                > Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say
                for now
                > I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be
                something they
                > wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
                >
                > If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is
                going
                > give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
                >
                > Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are
                > subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people.
                God never
                > intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual
                orientation
                > is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he
                loves me as
                > a gay man.
                >
                > Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not
                true to
                > core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected to the
                > spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church
                would be
                > set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
                >
                > Andrew
                >
                > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                > wrote:
                > Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have you ever
                > been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes
                pathetic
                > as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they
                struggle
                > to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.
                >
                > I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.
                >
                > Anthony
                > Moderator and author of:
                > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                Business
                > Association
                > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                accepted,
                > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
                > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
                > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                >
                >
                > Hi,
                >
                > its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember
                seeing
                > the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone
                professing
                > love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.
                >
                > My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself)
                that the
                > Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality. Of
                course,
                > there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
                > "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of
                their
                > faith go, the whole thing will collapse. It took my falling in love
                with a
                > man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to
                show me
                > that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true
                faith. I now
                > realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
                > different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily
                inspired
                > for all time.
                >
                > On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be
                Gay" by
                > William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through
                the ages
                > and across cultures. Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
                > cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
                > positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed it so
                > strongly. The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is
                very
                > good reading (its not Christian either).
                >
                > Cheers for now.
                >
                > Alan
                >
                > ========================================
                > Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
                > From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                > <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                > To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                > Copy to :
                > Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                >
                >
                > <html><body>
                >
                >
                >
                > <tt>
                > Thanks Edward.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many
                people
                > I<BR>
                > find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
                > seeing<BR>
                > them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
                > would<BR>
                > be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
                > churches<BR>
                > forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most
                churches<BR>
                > today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
                > life<BR>
                > time.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are. People
                > who<BR>
                > have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
                > be<BR>
                > attracted to the same sex.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > Anthony<BR>
                > Moderator and author of:<BR>
                > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's
                Struggle'<BR>
                > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                > Business<BR>
                > Association<BR>
                > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
                > <a
                > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                > Exex-gay</a><BR>
                > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be<BR>
                > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                > accepted,<BR>
                > celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                > From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@y...]<BR>
                > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
                > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown" <anthony.venn-<BR>
                > brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
                > ><BR>
                > > Amen<BR>
                > ><BR>
                > > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
                do<BR>
                > > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and convert<BR>
                > > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
                > ><BR>
                > ><BR>
                > > anthony<BR>
                > ><BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > just an opinion...<BR>
                > <BR>
                > it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > <BR>
                > </tt>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
                >
                > <br>
                > <tt><hr width="500">
                > <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                > <ul>
                > <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
                > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/">
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group
                > /Exex-gay/</a><br>
                > <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
                >
                href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
                > gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                > <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
                > href=" http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
                > </ul>
                > </tt>
                > </br>
                >
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                > </body></html>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --
                >
                > Whatever you Wanadoo:
                > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
                >
                > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
                > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                >
                >
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                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
                >
                > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                >
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                > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
              • Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach
                HI Rick Thanks for sharing your story. It s a similar one to many in the group........but everyone is at different stages in the process. Sounds like you are
                Message 7 of 18 , Jan 21, 2005
                  HI Rick

                  Thanks for sharing your story. It's a similar one to many in the
                  group........but everyone is at different stages in the process. Sounds like
                  you are making good progress.

                  Reparative therapy as you mentioned I incredibly harmful.

                  You may find these links helpful

                  http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/Mission_Impossible/ch
                  ange.pdf

                  http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200001.pdf


                  Anthony
                  Moderator and author of:
                  'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                  Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian Business
                  Association
                  To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                  My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                  forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted,
                  celebrated, and lived with integrity.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@...]
                  Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 00:58
                  To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


                  Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I've been seriously
                  busy as I'm back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering
                  Technology program at the University of Toledo in Toledo, Ohio. There
                  is a gay/lesbian/bi/transgener student organization on campus, but
                  I've yet to join up. I also have experienced such hatred and bigotry
                  from those who claim to be christians. I spent over 9 years in
                  personal counseling in an attempt to "change" my sexuality with no
                  success. Desert Stream Ministries is something I know quite well. I
                  feel these ministries are unhealthy, because they will shame you if
                  you cannot change. They will say things like, "well, you don't have
                  enough faith, or you're not being serious enough." What I remember
                  seeing there was a lot of guys and girls who were just gay and they
                  were putting themselves through horrible emotional pain because they
                  felt they needed to change in order to be accepted. This is so sad. If
                  someone really wants to try and change, that is their choice. But for
                  me, it did not work and many others have felt the same thing. You
                  can't change what you were meant to be. All you can do is strive to
                  live it honestly and with integrity. I'm celibate, but it's so hard to
                  stay this way. In a sense, I am denying my desires which is not
                  healthy emotionally or psychologically. However I don't want to just
                  go out and find someone to have empty sex with either. But dealing
                  with these feelings can be tough. I've come a long way, there were
                  times in the past when I felt so guilty for even looking at men. I
                  would shame myself and try not to notice them. How silly it was now
                  that I look back on it. If I had just listened to what the inner voice
                  was saying to me, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief. But
                  a lot of times we are so afraid of the truth. We hide from ourselves
                  the reality of who we are for various reasons. I'm thankful that I do
                  not feel that guilt anymore over being attracted to other men. But
                  it's been a long road. Anthony, thanks for allowing me to be a part of
                  things here.

                  Rick




                  --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                  <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                  > HI Andrew
                  >
                  > Thanks for your thoughts and intro. We look forward to hearing more
                  form
                  > you in the future.
                  >
                  > Anthony
                  > Moderator and author of:
                  > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                  > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                  Business
                  > Association
                  > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here
                  > <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html> .
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/>
                  > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                  > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                  accepted,
                  > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Andrew
                  Jones [mailto:acj1968@y...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
                  > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                  >
                  > Hi Tony & Group
                  >
                  > There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves
                  inawful pain
                  > trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
                  >
                  > I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
                  > It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time
                  because
                  > I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
                  >
                  > I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote, Victoria. The
                  > senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that day.
                  > Did it work - absolutley not!
                  > They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if
                  Liberace
                  > was told that ... lol.
                  >
                  > Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say
                  for now
                  > I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be
                  something they
                  > wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
                  >
                  > If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is
                  going
                  > give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
                  >
                  > Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are
                  > subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people.
                  God never
                  > intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual
                  orientation
                  > is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he
                  loves me as
                  > a gay man.
                  >
                  > Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not
                  true to
                  > core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected to the
                  > spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church
                  would be
                  > set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
                  >
                  > Andrew
                  >
                  > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                  > wrote:
                  > Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have you ever
                  > been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes
                  pathetic
                  > as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they
                  struggle
                  > to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.
                  >
                  > I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.
                  >
                  > Anthony
                  > Moderator and author of:
                  > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                  > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                  Business
                  > Association
                  > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                  > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                  > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                  accepted,
                  > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
                  > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember
                  seeing
                  > the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone
                  professing
                  > love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.
                  >
                  > My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself)
                  that the
                  > Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality. Of
                  course,
                  > there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
                  > "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of
                  their
                  > faith go, the whole thing will collapse. It took my falling in love
                  with a
                  > man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to
                  show me
                  > that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true
                  faith. I now
                  > realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
                  > different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily
                  inspired
                  > for all time.
                  >
                  > On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be
                  Gay" by
                  > William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through
                  the ages
                  > and across cultures. Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
                  > cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
                  > positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed it so
                  > strongly. The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is
                  very
                  > good reading (its not Christian either).
                  >
                  > Cheers for now.
                  >
                  > Alan
                  >
                  > ========================================
                  > Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
                  > From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                  > <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                  > To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                  > Copy to :
                  > Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                  >
                  >
                  > <html><body>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > <tt>
                  > Thanks Edward.<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many
                  people
                  > I<BR>
                  > find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
                  > seeing<BR>
                  > them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
                  > would<BR>
                  > be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
                  > churches<BR>
                  > forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most
                  churches<BR>
                  > today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
                  > life<BR>
                  > time.<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are. People
                  > who<BR>
                  > have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
                  > be<BR>
                  > attracted to the same sex.<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > Anthony<BR>
                  > Moderator and author of:<BR>
                  > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's
                  Struggle'<BR>
                  > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                  > Business<BR>
                  > Association<BR>
                  > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
                  > <a
                  > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                  > Exex-gay</a><BR>
                  > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be<BR>
                  > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                  > accepted,<BR>
                  > celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                  > From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@y...]<BR>
                  > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
                  > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                  > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown" <anthony.venn-<BR>
                  > brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
                  > ><BR>
                  > > Amen<BR>
                  > ><BR>
                  > > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
                  do<BR>
                  > > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and convert<BR>
                  > > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
                  > ><BR>
                  > ><BR>
                  > > anthony<BR>
                  > ><BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > just an opinion...<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > <BR>
                  > </tt>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
                  >
                  > <br>
                  > <tt><hr width="500">
                  > <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                  > <ul>
                  > <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
                  > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/">
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group
                  > /Exex-gay/</a><br>
                  > <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
                  >
                  href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
                  > gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                  > <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
                  > href=" http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
                  > </ul>
                  > </tt>
                  > </br>
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                  >
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                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  >
                  > Whatever you Wanadoo:
                  > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
                  >
                  > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
                  > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > signature
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                  > <http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/*http://au.movies.yahoo.com>
                  >
                  >
                  > _____
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
                  >
                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • Andrew Jones
                  Hi Rick Thanks for your intro. mate I was hoping you could answer something for me .... why are you celebate? Why do you say that sex would be empty if you had
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jan 21, 2005
                    Hi Rick
                     
                    Thanks for your intro. mate
                     
                    I was hoping you could answer something for me .... why are you celebate?
                     
                    Why do you say that sex would be empty if you had a casual "romp in the cot"?
                     
                    Hope to hear from you soon.
                     
                    Another Aussie Bum,
                     
                    Andrew
                     


                    Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:
                    HI Rick

                    Thanks for sharing your story. It's a similar one to many in the
                    group........but everyone is at different stages in the process. Sounds like
                    you are making good progress.

                    Reparative therapy as you mentioned I incredibly harmful.

                    You may find these links helpful

                    http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/Mission_Impossible/ch
                    ange.pdf

                    http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200001.pdf


                    Anthony
                    Moderator and author of:
                    'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                    Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian Business
                    Association
                    To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                    My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                    forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be accepted,
                    celebrated, and lived with integrity.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 00:58
                    To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.


                    Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I've been seriously
                    busy as I'm back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering
                    Technology program at the University of Toledo in Toledo, Ohio. There
                    is a gay/lesbian/bi/transgener student organization on campus, but
                    I've yet to join up. I also have experienced such hatred and bigotry
                    from those who claim to be christians. I spent over 9 years in
                    personal counseling in an attempt to "change" my sexuality with no
                    success. Desert Stream Ministries is something I know quite well. I
                    feel these ministries are unhealthy, because they will shame you if
                    you cannot change. They will say things like, "well, you don't have
                    enough faith, or you're not being serious enough." What I remember
                    seeing there was a lot of guys and girls who were just gay and they
                    were putting themselves through horrible emotional pain because they
                    felt they needed to change in order to be accepted. This is so sad. If
                    someone really wants to try and change, that is their choice. But for
                    me, it did not work and many others have felt the same thing. You
                    can't change what you were meant to be. All you can do is strive to
                    live it honestly and with integrity. I'm celibate, but it's so hard to
                    stay this way. In a sense, I am denying my desires which is not
                    healthy emotionally or psychologically. However I don't want to just
                    go out and find someone to have empty sex with either. But dealing
                    with these feelings can be tough. I've come a long way, there were
                    times in the past when I felt so guilty for even looking at men. I
                    would shame myself and try not to notice them. How silly it was now
                    that I look back on it. If I had just listened to what the inner voice
                    was saying to me, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief. But
                    a lot of times we are so afraid of the truth. We hide from ourselves
                    the reality of who we are for various reasons. I'm thankful that I do
                    not feel that guilt anymore over being attracted to other men. But
                    it's been a long road. Anthony, thanks for allowing me to be a part of
                    things here.

                    Rick




                    --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                    <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                    > HI Andrew
                    >
                    > Thanks for your thoughts and intro.  We look forward to hearing more
                    form
                    > you in the future.
                    >
                    > Anthony
                    > Moderator and author of:
                    > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                    > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                    Business
                    > Association
                    > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here
                    > <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html> .
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                    > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/>
                    > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                    > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                    accepted,
                    > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Andrew
                    Jones [mailto:acj1968@y...]
                    > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
                    > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                    >
                    > Hi Tony & Group
                    >
                    > There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves
                    inawful pain
                    > trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
                    >
                    > I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
                    > It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time
                    because
                    > I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
                    >
                    > I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote, Victoria. The
                    > senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that day.
                    > Did it work - absolutley not!
                    > They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if
                    Liberace
                    > was told that ... lol.
                    >
                    > Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say
                    for now
                    > I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be
                    something they
                    > wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
                    >
                    > If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is
                    going
                    > give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
                    >
                    > Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are
                    > subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people.
                    God never
                    > intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual
                    orientation
                    > is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he
                    loves me as
                    > a gay man.
                    >
                    > Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not
                    true to
                    > core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected to the
                    > spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church
                    would be
                    > set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
                    >
                    > Andrew
                    >
                    > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                    > wrote:
                    > Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have you ever
                    > been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes
                    pathetic
                    > as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they
                    struggle
                    > to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.
                    >
                    > I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.
                    >
                    > Anthony
                    > Moderator and author of:
                    > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                    > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                    Business
                    > Association
                    > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                    > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                    > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                    accepted,
                    > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
                    > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
                    > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi,
                    >
                    > its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember
                    seeing
                    > the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone
                    professing
                    > love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.
                    >
                    > My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself)
                    that the
                    > Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality.   Of
                    course,
                    > there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
                    > "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of
                    their
                    > faith go, the whole thing will collapse.  It took my falling in love
                    with a
                    > man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to
                    show me
                    > that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true
                    faith.  I now
                    > realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
                    > different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily
                    inspired
                    > for all time.
                    >
                    > On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be
                    Gay" by
                    > William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through
                    the ages
                    > and across cultures.  Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
                    > cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
                    > positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed it so
                    > strongly.  The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is
                    very
                    > good reading (its not Christian either).
                    >
                    > Cheers for now.
                    >
                    > Alan
                    >
                    > ========================================
                    > Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
                    > From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                    > <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                    > To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                    > Copy to :
                    > Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                    >
                    >
                    > <html><body>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <tt>
                    > Thanks Edward.<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many
                    people
                    > I<BR>
                    > find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
                    > seeing<BR>
                    > them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
                    > would<BR>
                    > be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
                    > churches<BR>
                    > forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most
                    churches<BR>
                    > today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
                    > life<BR>
                    > time.<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are. People
                    > who<BR>
                    > have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
                    > be<BR>
                    > attracted to the same sex.<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > Anthony<BR>
                    > Moderator and author of:<BR>
                    > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's
                    Struggle'<BR>
                    > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                    > Business<BR>
                    > Association<BR>
                    > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
                    > <a
                    > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                    > Exex-gay</a><BR>
                    > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be<BR>
                    > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                    > accepted,<BR>
                    > celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                    > From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@y...]<BR>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
                    > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                    > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown" <anthony.venn-<BR>
                    > brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
                    > ><BR>
                    > > Amen<BR>
                    > ><BR>
                    > > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
                    do<BR>
                    > > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and convert<BR>
                    > > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
                    > ><BR>
                    > ><BR>
                    > > anthony<BR>
                    > ><BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > just an opinion...<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > <BR>
                    > </tt>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
                    >
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                    > <tt><hr width="500">
                    > <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                    > <ul>
                    > <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
                    > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/">
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group
                    > /Exex-gay/</a><br>
                    > <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
                    >
                    href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
                    > gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                    > <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
                    > href=" http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
                    > </ul>
                    > </tt>
                    > </br>
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                    >
                    > </body></html>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    >
                    > Whatever you Wanadoo:
                    > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
                    >
                    > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
                    > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > signature
                    >
                    >
                    >   _____
                    >
                    > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                    > <http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/*http://au.movies.yahoo.com>
                    >
                    >
                    >   _____
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > *         To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
                    >
                    > *         To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                    Yahoo! Groups Links











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                    Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.

                  • Rick
                    Many thanks Anthony for these links. They are very helpful. Blessings, Rick ... Sounds like ...
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jan 27, 2005
                      Many thanks Anthony for these links. They are very helpful.

                      Blessings,
                      Rick



                      --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                      <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                      > HI Rick
                      >
                      > Thanks for sharing your story. It's a similar one to many in the
                      > group........but everyone is at different stages in the process.
                      Sounds like
                      > you are making good progress.
                      >
                      > Reparative therapy as you mentioned I incredibly harmful.
                      >
                      > You may find these links helpful
                      >
                      >
                      http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/Mission_Impossible/ch
                      > ange.pdf
                      >
                      > http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200001.pdf
                      >
                      >
                      > Anthony
                      > Moderator and author of:
                      > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                      > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                      Business
                      > Association
                      > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                      > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                      > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                      accepted,
                      > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@y...]
                      > Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 00:58
                      > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I've been seriously
                      > busy as I'm back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering
                      > Technology program at the University of Toledo in Toledo, Ohio. There
                      > is a gay/lesbian/bi/transgener student organization on campus, but
                      > I've yet to join up. I also have experienced such hatred and bigotry
                      > from those who claim to be christians. I spent over 9 years in
                      > personal counseling in an attempt to "change" my sexuality with no
                      > success. Desert Stream Ministries is something I know quite well. I
                      > feel these ministries are unhealthy, because they will shame you if
                      > you cannot change. They will say things like, "well, you don't have
                      > enough faith, or you're not being serious enough." What I remember
                      > seeing there was a lot of guys and girls who were just gay and they
                      > were putting themselves through horrible emotional pain because they
                      > felt they needed to change in order to be accepted. This is so sad. If
                      > someone really wants to try and change, that is their choice. But for
                      > me, it did not work and many others have felt the same thing. You
                      > can't change what you were meant to be. All you can do is strive to
                      > live it honestly and with integrity. I'm celibate, but it's so hard to
                      > stay this way. In a sense, I am denying my desires which is not
                      > healthy emotionally or psychologically. However I don't want to just
                      > go out and find someone to have empty sex with either. But dealing
                      > with these feelings can be tough. I've come a long way, there were
                      > times in the past when I felt so guilty for even looking at men. I
                      > would shame myself and try not to notice them. How silly it was now
                      > that I look back on it. If I had just listened to what the inner voice
                      > was saying to me, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief. But
                      > a lot of times we are so afraid of the truth. We hide from ourselves
                      > the reality of who we are for various reasons. I'm thankful that I do
                      > not feel that guilt anymore over being attracted to other men. But
                      > it's been a long road. Anthony, thanks for allowing me to be a part of
                      > things here.
                      >
                      > Rick
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                      > <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                      > > HI Andrew
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for your thoughts and intro. We look forward to hearing more
                      > form
                      > > you in the future.
                      > >
                      > > Anthony
                      > > Moderator and author of:
                      > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                      > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                      > Business
                      > > Association
                      > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here
                      > > <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html> .
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                      > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/>
                      > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                      > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                      > accepted,
                      > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Andrew
                      > Jones [mailto:acj1968@y...]
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
                      > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                      > >
                      > > Hi Tony & Group
                      > >
                      > > There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves
                      > inawful pain
                      > > trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
                      > >
                      > > I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
                      > > It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time
                      > because
                      > > I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
                      > >
                      > > I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote,
                      Victoria. The
                      > > senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that
                      day.
                      > > Did it work - absolutley not!
                      > > They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if
                      > Liberace
                      > > was told that ... lol.
                      > >
                      > > Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say
                      > for now
                      > > I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be
                      > something they
                      > > wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
                      > >
                      > > If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is
                      > going
                      > > give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
                      > >
                      > > Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are
                      > > subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people.
                      > God never
                      > > intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual
                      > orientation
                      > > is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he
                      > loves me as
                      > > a gay man.
                      > >
                      > > Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not
                      > true to
                      > > core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected
                      to the
                      > > spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church
                      > would be
                      > > set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
                      > >
                      > > Andrew
                      > >
                      > > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have
                      you ever
                      > > been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes
                      > pathetic
                      > > as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they
                      > struggle
                      > > to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.
                      > >
                      > > I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.
                      > >
                      > > Anthony
                      > > Moderator and author of:
                      > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                      > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                      > Business
                      > > Association
                      > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                      > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                      > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                      > accepted,
                      > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
                      > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hi,
                      > >
                      > > its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember
                      > seeing
                      > > the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone
                      > professing
                      > > love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.
                      > >
                      > > My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself)
                      > that the
                      > > Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality. Of
                      > course,
                      > > there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
                      > > "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of
                      > their
                      > > faith go, the whole thing will collapse. It took my falling in love
                      > with a
                      > > man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to
                      > show me
                      > > that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true
                      > faith. I now
                      > > realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
                      > > different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily
                      > inspired
                      > > for all time.
                      > >
                      > > On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be
                      > Gay" by
                      > > William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through
                      > the ages
                      > > and across cultures. Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
                      > > cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
                      > > positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed
                      it so
                      > > strongly. The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is
                      > very
                      > > good reading (its not Christian either).
                      > >
                      > > Cheers for now.
                      > >
                      > > Alan
                      > >
                      > > ========================================
                      > > Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
                      > > From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                      > > <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                      > > To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Copy to :
                      > > Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > <html><body>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > <tt>
                      > > Thanks Edward.<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many
                      > people
                      > > I<BR>
                      > > find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
                      > > seeing<BR>
                      > > them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
                      > > would<BR>
                      > > be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
                      > > churches<BR>
                      > > forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most
                      > churches<BR>
                      > > today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
                      > > life<BR>
                      > > time.<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are.
                      People
                      > > who<BR>
                      > > have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
                      > > be<BR>
                      > > attracted to the same sex.<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > Anthony<BR>
                      > > Moderator and author of:<BR>
                      > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's
                      > Struggle'<BR>
                      > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                      > > Business<BR>
                      > > Association<BR>
                      > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
                      > > <a
                      > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                      > > Exex-gay</a><BR>
                      > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to
                      be<BR>
                      > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                      > > accepted,<BR>
                      > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                      > > From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@y...]<BR>
                      > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
                      > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                      > > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown"
                      <anthony.venn-<BR>
                      > > brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
                      > > ><BR>
                      > > > Amen<BR>
                      > > ><BR>
                      > > > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
                      > do<BR>
                      > > > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and
                      convert<BR>
                      > > > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
                      > > ><BR>
                      > > ><BR>
                      > > > anthony<BR>
                      > > ><BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > just an opinion...<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > <BR>
                      > > </tt>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
                      > >
                      > > <br>
                      > > <tt><hr width="500">
                      > > <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                      > > <ul>
                      > > <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
                      > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/">
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group
                      > > /Exex-gay/</a><br>
                      > > <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
                      > >
                      >
                      href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
                      > > gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                      > > <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
                      > > href=" http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
                      > > </ul>
                      > > </tt>
                      > > </br>
                      > >
                      > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > </body></html>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --
                      > >
                      > > Whatever you Wanadoo:
                      > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
                      > >
                      > > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
                      > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > signature
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > _____
                      > >
                      > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                      > > <http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/*http://au.movies.yahoo.com>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > _____
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
                      > >
                      > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > <mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                      > >
                      > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Rick
                      Hi there. Andrew. Sure, I ll be happy to answer any question you mau have :) I m celibate because at this point in my life, I m looking for someone to spend
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jan 27, 2005
                        Hi there. Andrew. Sure, I'll be happy to answer any question you mau
                        have :) I'm celibate because at this point in my life, I'm looking
                        for someone to spend my life with. A longterm relationship. Now I am
                        not judging anyone, but sex without some emotional attachment or love
                        is something that I would not find desirable. Having said that, I have
                        to admit there are times when I feel like I just want some anonymous
                        sex. To get some relief... But I'm frightened that if I do this, I'll
                        catch some disease and I certainly do not want that. I know it seems
                        like I contradicted myself, but I'm just human and I have needs. At
                        this point I'm denying myself of fulfilling that need. But I know I'm
                        gay. I guess this is something I need to work on.

                        Blessings,
                        Rick



                        --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jones <acj1968@y...> wrote:
                        > Hi Rick
                        >
                        > Thanks for your intro. mate
                        >
                        > I was hoping you could answer something for me .... why are you
                        celebate?
                        >
                        > Why do you say that sex would be empty if you had a casual "romp in
                        the cot"?
                        >
                        > Hope to hear from you soon.
                        >
                        > Another Aussie Bum,
                        >
                        > Andrew
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                        > HI Rick
                        >
                        > Thanks for sharing your story. It's a similar one to many in the
                        > group........but everyone is at different stages in the process.
                        Sounds like
                        > you are making good progress.
                        >
                        > Reparative therapy as you mentioned I incredibly harmful.
                        >
                        > You may find these links helpful
                        >
                        >
                        http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/Mission_Impossible/ch
                        > ange.pdf
                        >
                        > http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200001.pdf
                        >
                        >
                        > Anthony
                        > Moderator and author of:
                        > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                        > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                        Business
                        > Association
                        > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                        > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                        > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                        accepted,
                        > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@y...]
                        > Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 00:58
                        > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I've been seriously
                        > busy as I'm back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering
                        > Technology program at the University of Toledo in Toledo, Ohio. There
                        > is a gay/lesbian/bi/transgener student organization on campus, but
                        > I've yet to join up. I also have experienced such hatred and bigotry
                        > from those who claim to be christians. I spent over 9 years in
                        > personal counseling in an attempt to "change" my sexuality with no
                        > success. Desert Stream Ministries is something I know quite well. I
                        > feel these ministries are unhealthy, because they will shame you if
                        > you cannot change. They will say things like, "well, you don't have
                        > enough faith, or you're not being serious enough." What I remember
                        > seeing there was a lot of guys and girls who were just gay and they
                        > were putting themselves through horrible emotional pain because they
                        > felt they needed to change in order to be accepted. This is so sad. If
                        > someone really wants to try and change, that is their choice. But for
                        > me, it did not work and many others have felt the same thing. You
                        > can't change what you were meant to be. All you can do is strive to
                        > live it honestly and with integrity. I'm celibate, but it's so hard to
                        > stay this way. In a sense, I am denying my desires which is not
                        > healthy emotionally or psychologically. However I don't want to just
                        > go out and find someone to have empty sex with either. But dealing
                        > with these feelings can be tough. I've come a long way, there were
                        > times in the past when I felt so guilty for even looking at men. I
                        > would shame myself and try not to notice them. How silly it was now
                        > that I look back on it. If I had just listened to what the inner voice
                        > was saying to me, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief. But
                        > a lot of times we are so afraid of the truth. We hide from ourselves
                        > the reality of who we are for various reasons. I'm thankful that I do
                        > not feel that guilt anymore over being attracted to other men. But
                        > it's been a long road. Anthony, thanks for allowing me to be a part of
                        > things here.
                        >
                        > Rick
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                        > <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                        > > HI Andrew
                        > >
                        > > Thanks for your thoughts and intro. We look forward to hearing more
                        > form
                        > > you in the future.
                        > >
                        > > Anthony
                        > > Moderator and author of:
                        > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                        > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                        > Business
                        > > Association
                        > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here
                        > > <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html> .
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                        > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/>
                        > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                        > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                        > accepted,
                        > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: Andrew
                        > Jones [mailto:acj1968@y...]
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
                        > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                        > >
                        > > Hi Tony & Group
                        > >
                        > > There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves
                        > inawful pain
                        > > trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
                        > >
                        > > I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
                        > > It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time
                        > because
                        > > I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
                        > >
                        > > I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote,
                        Victoria. The
                        > > senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that
                        day.
                        > > Did it work - absolutley not!
                        > > They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if
                        > Liberace
                        > > was told that ... lol.
                        > >
                        > > Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say
                        > for now
                        > > I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be
                        > something they
                        > > wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
                        > >
                        > > If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is
                        > going
                        > > give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
                        > >
                        > > Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are
                        > > subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people.
                        > God never
                        > > intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual
                        > orientation
                        > > is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he
                        > loves me as
                        > > a gay man.
                        > >
                        > > Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not
                        > true to
                        > > core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected
                        to the
                        > > spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church
                        > would be
                        > > set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
                        > >
                        > > Andrew
                        > >
                        > > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have
                        you ever
                        > > been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes
                        > pathetic
                        > > as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they
                        > struggle
                        > > to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.
                        > >
                        > > I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.
                        > >
                        > > Anthony
                        > > Moderator and author of:
                        > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                        > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                        > Business
                        > > Association
                        > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                        > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                        > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                        > accepted,
                        > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
                        > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Hi,
                        > >
                        > > its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember
                        > seeing
                        > > the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone
                        > professing
                        > > love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.
                        > >
                        > > My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself)
                        > that the
                        > > Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality. Of
                        > course,
                        > > there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
                        > > "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of
                        > their
                        > > faith go, the whole thing will collapse. It took my falling in love
                        > with a
                        > > man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to
                        > show me
                        > > that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true
                        > faith. I now
                        > > realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
                        > > different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily
                        > inspired
                        > > for all time.
                        > >
                        > > On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be
                        > Gay" by
                        > > William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through
                        > the ages
                        > > and across cultures. Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
                        > > cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
                        > > positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed
                        it so
                        > > strongly. The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is
                        > very
                        > > good reading (its not Christian either).
                        > >
                        > > Cheers for now.
                        > >
                        > > Alan
                        > >
                        > > ========================================
                        > > Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
                        > > From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                        > > <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                        > > To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Copy to :
                        > > Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > <html><body>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > <tt>
                        > > Thanks Edward.<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many
                        > people
                        > > I<BR>
                        > > find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
                        > > seeing<BR>
                        > > them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
                        > > would<BR>
                        > > be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
                        > > churches<BR>
                        > > forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most
                        > churches<BR>
                        > > today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
                        > > life<BR>
                        > > time.<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are.
                        People
                        > > who<BR>
                        > > have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
                        > > be<BR>
                        > > attracted to the same sex.<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > Anthony<BR>
                        > > Moderator and author of:<BR>
                        > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's
                        > Struggle'<BR>
                        > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                        > > Business<BR>
                        > > Association<BR>
                        > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
                        > > <a
                        > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                        > > Exex-gay</a><BR>
                        > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to
                        be<BR>
                        > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                        > > accepted,<BR>
                        > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                        > > From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@y...]<BR>
                        > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
                        > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                        > > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown"
                        <anthony.venn-<BR>
                        > > brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
                        > > ><BR>
                        > > > Amen<BR>
                        > > ><BR>
                        > > > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
                        > do<BR>
                        > > > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and
                        convert<BR>
                        > > > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
                        > > ><BR>
                        > > ><BR>
                        > > > anthony<BR>
                        > > ><BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > just an opinion...<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > <BR>
                        > > </tt>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
                        > >
                        > > <br>
                        > > <tt><hr width="500">
                        > > <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                        > > <ul>
                        > > <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
                        > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/">
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group
                        > > /Exex-gay/</a><br>
                        > > <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
                        > >
                        >
                        href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
                        > > gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                        > > <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
                        > > href=" http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
                        > > </ul>
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                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
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                        > >
                        > > Whatever you Wanadoo:
                        > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
                        > >
                        > > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
                        > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
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                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > signature
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > _____
                        > >
                        > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                        > > <http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/*http://au.movies.yahoo.com>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > _____
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
                        > >
                        > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > <mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                        > >
                        > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > signature
                        >
                        > test'; ">
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                      • Dennis
                        Hi Rick. My name is Dennis and I am a friend of Andrew s. I live in the U.S., Dallas, Texas. I m in sort of in the same position as you. At some point I
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jan 28, 2005

                          Hi Rick.

                           

                          My name is Dennis and I am a friend of Andrew’s.  I live in  the U.S. , Dallas , Texas .  I’m in sort of in the same position as you.  At some point I want to find “Mr. Right. 

                           

                          I’m not particularly waiting around for that moment, although it has been almost five years (OUCH!!!), but at the same time I’m not going to just “have a lay-down” with the first guy that comes along.  But there has to be someone out there in the same spot as you that would be safe to experience a little mutual “relief” with….doesn’t mean you have to take risky chances, but you can get that sexual satisfaction that any normal human desires. 

                           

                          I know it is scary…just exercise caution and be safe.  I was hit on several years ago by a nice looking guy, but the moment he started coming on to me, warning bells started going off…I didn’t go with him.  I stopped and asked myself, if it’s too good to be true, then it probably is.

                           

                          Hope this helps.

                           

                          Hugs,

                          Dennis

                           


                          From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@...]
                          Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2005 7:16 AM
                          To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.

                           


                          Hi there. Andrew. Sure, I'll be happy to answer any question you mau
                          have :)  I'm celibate because at this point in my life, I'm looking
                          for someone to spend my life with. A longterm relationship. Now I am
                          not judging anyone, but sex without some emotional attachment or love
                          is something that I would not find desirable. Having said that, I have
                          to admit there are times when I feel like I just want some anonymous
                          sex. To get some relief... But I'm frightened that if I do this, I'll
                          catch some disease and I certainly do not want that. I know it seems
                          like I contradicted myself, but I'm just human and I have needs. At
                          this point I'm denying myself of fulfilling that need. But I know I'm
                          gay. I guess this is something I need to work on.

                          Blessings,
                          Rick



                          --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jones <acj1968@y...> wrote:
                          > Hi Rick

                          > Thanks for your intro. mate

                          > I was hoping you could answer something for me .... why are you
                          celebate?

                          > Why do you say that sex would be empty if you had a casual "romp in
                          the cot"?

                          > Hope to hear from you soon.

                          > Another Aussie Bum,

                          > Andrew

                          >
                          >
                          > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                          > HI Rick
                          >
                          > Thanks for sharing your story. It's a similar one to many in the
                          > group........but everyone is at different stages in the process.
                          Sounds like
                          > you are making good progress.
                          >
                          > Reparative therapy as you mentioned I incredibly harmful.
                          >
                          > You may find these links helpful
                          >
                          >
                          http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/Mission_Impossible/ch
                          > ange.pdf
                          >
                          > http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200001.pdf
                          >
                          >
                          > Anthony
                          > Moderator and author of:
                          > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                          > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                          Business
                          > Association
                          > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                          > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                          > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                          accepted,
                          > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@y...]
                          > Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 00:58
                          > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I've been seriously
                          > busy as I'm back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering
                          > Technology program at the University of Toledo in Toledo , Ohio . There
                          > is a gay/lesbian/bi/transgener student organization on campus, but
                          > I've yet to join up. I also have experienced such hatred and bigotry
                          > from those who claim to be christians. I spent over 9 years in
                          > personal counseling in an attempt to "change" my sexuality with no
                          > success. Desert Stream Ministries is something I know quite well. I
                          > feel these ministries are unhealthy, because they will shame you if
                          > you cannot change. They will say things like, "well, you don't have
                          > enough faith, or you're not being serious enough." What I remember
                          > seeing there was a lot of guys and girls who were just gay and they
                          > were putting themselves through horrible emotional pain because they
                          > felt they needed to change in order to be accepted. This is so sad. If
                          > someone really wants to try and change, that is their choice. But for
                          > me, it did not work and many others have felt the same thing. You
                          > can't change what you were meant to be. All you can do is strive to
                          > live it honestly and with integrity. I'm celibate, but it's so hard to
                          > stay this way. In a sense, I am denying my desires which is not
                          > healthy emotionally or psychologically. However I don't want to just
                          > go out and find someone to have empty sex with either. But dealing
                          > with these feelings can be tough. I've come a long way, there were
                          > times in the past when I felt so guilty for even looking at men. I
                          > would shame myself and try not to notice them. How silly it was now
                          > that I look back on it. If I had just listened to what the inner voice
                          > was saying to me, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief. But
                          > a lot of times we are so afraid of the truth. We hide from ourselves
                          > the reality of who we are for various reasons. I'm thankful that I do
                          > not feel that guilt anymore over being attracted to other men. But
                          > it's been a long road. Anthony, thanks for allowing me to be a part of
                          > things here.
                          >
                          > Rick
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                          > <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                          > > HI Andrew
                          > >
                          > > Thanks for your thoughts and intro.  We look forward to hearing more
                          > form
                          > > you in the future.
                          > >
                          > > Anthony
                          > > Moderator and author of:
                          > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                          > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                          > Business
                          > > Association
                          > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here
                          > > <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html> .
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                          > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/>
                          > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                          > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                          > accepted,
                          > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: Andrew
                          > Jones [mailto:acj1968@y...]
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
                          > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                          > >
                          > > Hi Tony & Group
                          > >
                          > > There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves
                          > inawful pain
                          > > trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
                          > >
                          > > I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
                          > > It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time
                          > because
                          > > I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
                          > >
                          > > I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote,
                          Victoria. The
                          > > senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that
                          day.
                          > > Did it work - absolutley not!
                          > > They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if
                          > Liberace
                          > > was told that ... lol.
                          > >
                          > > Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say
                          > for now
                          > > I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be
                          > something they
                          > > wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
                          > >
                          > > If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is
                          > going
                          > > give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
                          > >
                          > > Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are
                          > > subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people.
                          > God never
                          > > intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual
                          > orientation
                          > > is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he
                          > loves me as
                          > > a gay man.
                          > >
                          > > Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not
                          > true to
                          > > core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected
                          to the
                          > > spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church
                          > would be
                          > > set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
                          > >
                          > > Andrew
                          > >
                          > > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have
                          you ever
                          > > been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes
                          > pathetic
                          > > as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they
                          > struggle
                          > > to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.
                          > >
                          > > I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.
                          > >
                          > > Anthony
                          > > Moderator and author of:
                          > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                          > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                          > Business
                          > > Association
                          > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                          > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                          > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                          > accepted,
                          > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
                          > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Hi,
                          > >
                          > > its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember
                          > seeing
                          > > the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone
                          > professing
                          > > love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.
                          > >
                          > > My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself)
                          > that the
                          > > Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality.   Of
                          > course,
                          > > there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
                          > > "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of
                          > their
                          > > faith go, the whole thing will collapse.  It took my falling in love
                          > with a
                          > > man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to
                          > show me
                          > > that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true
                          > faith.  I now
                          > > realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
                          > > different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily
                          > inspired
                          > > for all time.
                          > >
                          > > On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be
                          > Gay" by
                          > > William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through
                          > the ages
                          > > and across cultures.  Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
                          > > cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
                          > > positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed
                          it so
                          > > strongly.  The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is
                          > very
                          > > good reading (its not Christian either).
                          > >
                          > > Cheers for now.
                          > >
                          > > Alan
                          > >
                          > > ========================================
                          > > Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
                          > > From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                          > > <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                          > > To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Copy to :
                          > > Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > <html><body>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > <tt>
                          > > Thanks Edward.<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many
                          > people
                          > > I<BR>
                          > > find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
                          > > seeing<BR>
                          > > them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
                          > > would<BR>
                          > > be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
                          > > churches<BR>
                          > > forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most
                          > churches<BR>
                          > > today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
                          > > life<BR>
                          > > time.<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are.
                          People
                          > > who<BR>
                          > > have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
                          > > be<BR>
                          > > attracted to the same sex.<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > Anthony<BR>
                          > > Moderator and author of:<BR>
                          > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's
                          > Struggle'<BR>
                          > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                          > > Business<BR>
                          > > Association<BR>
                          > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
                          > > <a
                          > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                          > > Exex-gay</a><BR>
                          > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to
                          be<BR>
                          > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                          > > accepted,<BR>
                          > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                          > > From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@y...]<BR>
                          > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
                          > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                          > > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown"
                          <anthony.venn-<BR>
                          > > brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
                          > > ><BR>
                          > > > Amen<BR>
                          > > ><BR>
                          > > > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
                          > do<BR>
                          > > > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and
                          convert<BR>
                          > > > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
                          > > ><BR>
                          > > ><BR>
                          > > > anthony<BR>
                          > > ><BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > just an opinion...<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > <BR>
                          > > </tt>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
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                          > > <tt><hr width="500">
                          > > <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
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                          > > <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
                          > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/">
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group
                          > > /Exex-gay/</a><br>
                          > > <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
                          > >
                          >
                          href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
                          > > gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                          > > <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
                          > > href=" http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
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                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
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                          > >
                          > > Whatever you Wanadoo:
                          > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
                          > >
                          > > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
                          > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > signature
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >   _____
                          > >
                          > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                          > > <http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/*http://au.movies.yahoo.com>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >   _____
                          > >
                          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          > > *         To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
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                        • Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach
                          Good response Rick. Its sounds like you ve put a lot of thought into the issue. I think it is a personal choice we all have to make and then live in integrity
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jan 29, 2005
                            Good response Rick. Its sounds like you've put a lot of thought into the
                            issue. I think it is a personal choice we all have to make and then live in
                            integrity with our beliefs. If its not working then we need to look at what
                            will or what changes we nee to make.

                            Anthony
                            Moderator.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@...]
                            Sent: Friday, 28 January 2005 00:16
                            To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.



                            Hi there. Andrew. Sure, I'll be happy to answer any question you mau
                            have :) I'm celibate because at this point in my life, I'm looking
                            for someone to spend my life with. A longterm relationship. Now I am
                            not judging anyone, but sex without some emotional attachment or love
                            is something that I would not find desirable. Having said that, I have
                            to admit there are times when I feel like I just want some anonymous
                            sex. To get some relief... But I'm frightened that if I do this, I'll
                            catch some disease and I certainly do not want that. I know it seems
                            like I contradicted myself, but I'm just human and I have needs. At
                            this point I'm denying myself of fulfilling that need. But I know I'm
                            gay. I guess this is something I need to work on.

                            Blessings,
                            Rick



                            --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jones <acj1968@y...> wrote:
                            > Hi Rick
                            >
                            > Thanks for your intro. mate
                            >
                            > I was hoping you could answer something for me .... why are you
                            celebate?
                            >
                            > Why do you say that sex would be empty if you had a casual "romp in
                            the cot"?
                            >
                            > Hope to hear from you soon.
                            >
                            > Another Aussie Bum,
                            >
                            > Andrew
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                            > HI Rick
                            >
                            > Thanks for sharing your story. It's a similar one to many in the
                            > group........but everyone is at different stages in the process.
                            Sounds like
                            > you are making good progress.
                            >
                            > Reparative therapy as you mentioned I incredibly harmful.
                            >
                            > You may find these links helpful
                            >
                            >
                            http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/Mission_Impossible/ch
                            > ange.pdf
                            >
                            > http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200001.pdf
                            >
                            >
                            > Anthony
                            > Moderator and author of:
                            > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                            > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                            Business
                            > Association
                            > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                            > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                            > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                            accepted,
                            > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@y...]
                            > Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 00:58
                            > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I've been seriously
                            > busy as I'm back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering
                            > Technology program at the University of Toledo in Toledo, Ohio. There
                            > is a gay/lesbian/bi/transgener student organization on campus, but
                            > I've yet to join up. I also have experienced such hatred and bigotry
                            > from those who claim to be christians. I spent over 9 years in
                            > personal counseling in an attempt to "change" my sexuality with no
                            > success. Desert Stream Ministries is something I know quite well. I
                            > feel these ministries are unhealthy, because they will shame you if
                            > you cannot change. They will say things like, "well, you don't have
                            > enough faith, or you're not being serious enough." What I remember
                            > seeing there was a lot of guys and girls who were just gay and they
                            > were putting themselves through horrible emotional pain because they
                            > felt they needed to change in order to be accepted. This is so sad. If
                            > someone really wants to try and change, that is their choice. But for
                            > me, it did not work and many others have felt the same thing. You
                            > can't change what you were meant to be. All you can do is strive to
                            > live it honestly and with integrity. I'm celibate, but it's so hard to
                            > stay this way. In a sense, I am denying my desires which is not
                            > healthy emotionally or psychologically. However I don't want to just
                            > go out and find someone to have empty sex with either. But dealing
                            > with these feelings can be tough. I've come a long way, there were
                            > times in the past when I felt so guilty for even looking at men. I
                            > would shame myself and try not to notice them. How silly it was now
                            > that I look back on it. If I had just listened to what the inner voice
                            > was saying to me, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief. But
                            > a lot of times we are so afraid of the truth. We hide from ourselves
                            > the reality of who we are for various reasons. I'm thankful that I do
                            > not feel that guilt anymore over being attracted to other men. But
                            > it's been a long road. Anthony, thanks for allowing me to be a part of
                            > things here.
                            >
                            > Rick
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                            > <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                            > > HI Andrew
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for your thoughts and intro. We look forward to hearing more
                            > form
                            > > you in the future.
                            > >
                            > > Anthony
                            > > Moderator and author of:
                            > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                            > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                            > Business
                            > > Association
                            > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here
                            > > <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html> .
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                            > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/>
                            > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                            > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                            > accepted,
                            > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: Andrew
                            > Jones [mailto:acj1968@y...]
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
                            > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                            > >
                            > > Hi Tony & Group
                            > >
                            > > There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves
                            > inawful pain
                            > > trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
                            > >
                            > > I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
                            > > It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time
                            > because
                            > > I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
                            > >
                            > > I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote,
                            Victoria. The
                            > > senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that
                            day.
                            > > Did it work - absolutley not!
                            > > They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if
                            > Liberace
                            > > was told that ... lol.
                            > >
                            > > Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say
                            > for now
                            > > I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be
                            > something they
                            > > wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
                            > >
                            > > If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is
                            > going
                            > > give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
                            > >
                            > > Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are
                            > > subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people.
                            > God never
                            > > intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual
                            > orientation
                            > > is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he
                            > loves me as
                            > > a gay man.
                            > >
                            > > Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not
                            > true to
                            > > core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected
                            to the
                            > > spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church
                            > would be
                            > > set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
                            > >
                            > > Andrew
                            > >
                            > > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have
                            you ever
                            > > been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes
                            > pathetic
                            > > as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they
                            > struggle
                            > > to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.
                            > >
                            > > I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.
                            > >
                            > > Anthony
                            > > Moderator and author of:
                            > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                            > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                            > Business
                            > > Association
                            > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                            > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                            > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                            > accepted,
                            > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
                            > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hi,
                            > >
                            > > its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember
                            > seeing
                            > > the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone
                            > professing
                            > > love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.
                            > >
                            > > My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself)
                            > that the
                            > > Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality. Of
                            > course,
                            > > there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
                            > > "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of
                            > their
                            > > faith go, the whole thing will collapse. It took my falling in love
                            > with a
                            > > man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to
                            > show me
                            > > that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true
                            > faith. I now
                            > > realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
                            > > different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily
                            > inspired
                            > > for all time.
                            > >
                            > > On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be
                            > Gay" by
                            > > William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through
                            > the ages
                            > > and across cultures. Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
                            > > cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
                            > > positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed
                            it so
                            > > strongly. The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is
                            > very
                            > > good reading (its not Christian either).
                            > >
                            > > Cheers for now.
                            > >
                            > > Alan
                            > >
                            > > ========================================
                            > > Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
                            > > From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                            > > <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                            > > To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Copy to :
                            > > Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > <html><body>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > <tt>
                            > > Thanks Edward.<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many
                            > people
                            > > I<BR>
                            > > find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
                            > > seeing<BR>
                            > > them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
                            > > would<BR>
                            > > be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
                            > > churches<BR>
                            > > forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most
                            > churches<BR>
                            > > today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
                            > > life<BR>
                            > > time.<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are.
                            People
                            > > who<BR>
                            > > have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
                            > > be<BR>
                            > > attracted to the same sex.<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > Anthony<BR>
                            > > Moderator and author of:<BR>
                            > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's
                            > Struggle'<BR>
                            > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                            > > Business<BR>
                            > > Association<BR>
                            > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
                            > > <a
                            > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                            > > Exex-gay</a><BR>
                            > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to
                            be<BR>
                            > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                            > > accepted,<BR>
                            > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                            > > From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@y...]<BR>
                            > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
                            > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                            > > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown"
                            <anthony.venn-<BR>
                            > > brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
                            > > ><BR>
                            > > > Amen<BR>
                            > > ><BR>
                            > > > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
                            > do<BR>
                            > > > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and
                            convert<BR>
                            > > > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
                            > > ><BR>
                            > > ><BR>
                            > > > anthony<BR>
                            > > ><BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > just an opinion...<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > <BR>
                            > > </tt>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
                            > >
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                            > > <tt><hr width="500">
                            > > <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
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                            > > <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
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                            > > <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
                            > >
                            >
                            href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
                            > > gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                            > > <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
                            > > href=" http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
                            > > </ul>
                            > > </tt>
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                            > >
                            > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > </body></html>
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --
                            > >
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                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach
                            I m gald you found them helpful Rick. anthony ... From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, 28 January 2005 00:09 To:
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jan 29, 2005
                              I'm gald you found them helpful Rick.

                              anthony
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@...]
                              Sent: Friday, 28 January 2005 00:09
                              To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.



                              Many thanks Anthony for these links. They are very helpful.

                              Blessings,
                              Rick



                              --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                              <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                              > HI Rick
                              >
                              > Thanks for sharing your story. It's a similar one to many in the
                              > group........but everyone is at different stages in the process.
                              Sounds like
                              > you are making good progress.
                              >
                              > Reparative therapy as you mentioned I incredibly harmful.
                              >
                              > You may find these links helpful
                              >
                              >
                              http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/Mission_Impossible/ch
                              > ange.pdf
                              >
                              > http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200001.pdf
                              >
                              >
                              > Anthony
                              > Moderator and author of:
                              > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                              > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                              Business
                              > Association
                              > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                              > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                              > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                              accepted,
                              > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                              >
                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@y...]
                              > Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 00:58
                              > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I've been seriously
                              > busy as I'm back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering
                              > Technology program at the University of Toledo in Toledo, Ohio. There
                              > is a gay/lesbian/bi/transgener student organization on campus, but
                              > I've yet to join up. I also have experienced such hatred and bigotry
                              > from those who claim to be christians. I spent over 9 years in
                              > personal counseling in an attempt to "change" my sexuality with no
                              > success. Desert Stream Ministries is something I know quite well. I
                              > feel these ministries are unhealthy, because they will shame you if
                              > you cannot change. They will say things like, "well, you don't have
                              > enough faith, or you're not being serious enough." What I remember
                              > seeing there was a lot of guys and girls who were just gay and they
                              > were putting themselves through horrible emotional pain because they
                              > felt they needed to change in order to be accepted. This is so sad. If
                              > someone really wants to try and change, that is their choice. But for
                              > me, it did not work and many others have felt the same thing. You
                              > can't change what you were meant to be. All you can do is strive to
                              > live it honestly and with integrity. I'm celibate, but it's so hard to
                              > stay this way. In a sense, I am denying my desires which is not
                              > healthy emotionally or psychologically. However I don't want to just
                              > go out and find someone to have empty sex with either. But dealing
                              > with these feelings can be tough. I've come a long way, there were
                              > times in the past when I felt so guilty for even looking at men. I
                              > would shame myself and try not to notice them. How silly it was now
                              > that I look back on it. If I had just listened to what the inner voice
                              > was saying to me, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief. But
                              > a lot of times we are so afraid of the truth. We hide from ourselves
                              > the reality of who we are for various reasons. I'm thankful that I do
                              > not feel that guilt anymore over being attracted to other men. But
                              > it's been a long road. Anthony, thanks for allowing me to be a part of
                              > things here.
                              >
                              > Rick
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                              > <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                              > > HI Andrew
                              > >
                              > > Thanks for your thoughts and intro. We look forward to hearing more
                              > form
                              > > you in the future.
                              > >
                              > > Anthony
                              > > Moderator and author of:
                              > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                              > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                              > Business
                              > > Association
                              > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here
                              > > <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html> .
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/>
                              > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                              > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                              > accepted,
                              > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Andrew
                              > Jones [mailto:acj1968@y...]
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
                              > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                              > >
                              > > Hi Tony & Group
                              > >
                              > > There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves
                              > inawful pain
                              > > trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
                              > >
                              > > I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
                              > > It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time
                              > because
                              > > I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
                              > >
                              > > I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote,
                              Victoria. The
                              > > senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that
                              day.
                              > > Did it work - absolutley not!
                              > > They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if
                              > Liberace
                              > > was told that ... lol.
                              > >
                              > > Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say
                              > for now
                              > > I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be
                              > something they
                              > > wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
                              > >
                              > > If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is
                              > going
                              > > give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
                              > >
                              > > Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are
                              > > subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people.
                              > God never
                              > > intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual
                              > orientation
                              > > is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he
                              > loves me as
                              > > a gay man.
                              > >
                              > > Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not
                              > true to
                              > > core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected
                              to the
                              > > spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church
                              > would be
                              > > set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
                              > >
                              > > Andrew
                              > >
                              > > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have
                              you ever
                              > > been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes
                              > pathetic
                              > > as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they
                              > struggle
                              > > to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.
                              > >
                              > > I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.
                              > >
                              > > Anthony
                              > > Moderator and author of:
                              > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                              > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                              > Business
                              > > Association
                              > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                              > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                              > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                              > accepted,
                              > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
                              > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Hi,
                              > >
                              > > its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember
                              > seeing
                              > > the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone
                              > professing
                              > > love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.
                              > >
                              > > My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself)
                              > that the
                              > > Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality. Of
                              > course,
                              > > there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
                              > > "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of
                              > their
                              > > faith go, the whole thing will collapse. It took my falling in love
                              > with a
                              > > man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to
                              > show me
                              > > that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true
                              > faith. I now
                              > > realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
                              > > different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily
                              > inspired
                              > > for all time.
                              > >
                              > > On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be
                              > Gay" by
                              > > William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through
                              > the ages
                              > > and across cultures. Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
                              > > cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
                              > > positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed
                              it so
                              > > strongly. The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is
                              > very
                              > > good reading (its not Christian either).
                              > >
                              > > Cheers for now.
                              > >
                              > > Alan
                              > >
                              > > ========================================
                              > > Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
                              > > From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                              > > <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                              > > To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Copy to :
                              > > Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > <html><body>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > <tt>
                              > > Thanks Edward.<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many
                              > people
                              > > I<BR>
                              > > find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
                              > > seeing<BR>
                              > > them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
                              > > would<BR>
                              > > be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
                              > > churches<BR>
                              > > forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most
                              > churches<BR>
                              > > today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
                              > > life<BR>
                              > > time.<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are.
                              People
                              > > who<BR>
                              > > have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
                              > > be<BR>
                              > > attracted to the same sex.<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > Anthony<BR>
                              > > Moderator and author of:<BR>
                              > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's
                              > Struggle'<BR>
                              > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                              > > Business<BR>
                              > > Association<BR>
                              > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
                              > > <a
                              > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                              > > Exex-gay</a><BR>
                              > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to
                              be<BR>
                              > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                              > > accepted,<BR>
                              > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                              > > From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@y...]<BR>
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
                              > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                              > > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown"
                              <anthony.venn-<BR>
                              > > brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
                              > > ><BR>
                              > > > Amen<BR>
                              > > ><BR>
                              > > > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
                              > do<BR>
                              > > > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and
                              convert<BR>
                              > > > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
                              > > ><BR>
                              > > ><BR>
                              > > > anthony<BR>
                              > > ><BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > just an opinion...<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > <BR>
                              > > </tt>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > <!-- |**|begin egp html banner|**| -->
                              > >
                              > > <br>
                              > > <tt><hr width="500">
                              > > <b>Yahoo! Groups Links</b><br>
                              > > <ul>
                              > > <li>To visit your group on the web, go to:<br><a
                              > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/">
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group
                              > > /Exex-gay/</a><br>
                              > > <li>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:<br><a
                              > >
                              >
                              href="mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe">Exex-
                              > > gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
                              > > <li>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the <a
                              > > href=" http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/">Yahoo! Terms of Service</a>.
                              > > </ul>
                              > > </tt>
                              > > </br>
                              > >
                              > > <!-- |**|end egp html banner|**| -->
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > </body></html>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --
                              > >
                              > > Whatever you Wanadoo:
                              > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/time/
                              > >
                              > > This email has been checked for most known viruses - find out more at:
                              > > http://www.wanadoo.co.uk/help/id/7098.htm
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > signature
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                              > > <http://au.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline/*http://au.movies.yahoo.com>
                              > >
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                              > > _____
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/
                              > >
                              > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > > <mailto:Exex-gay-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                              > Yahoo! Groups Links







                              Yahoo! Groups Links
                            • Andrew Jones
                              Hi Rick Thanks for your reply mate. I m always curious about the decisions we make as gay men coming out of ex-gay ministries, especially when it comes to our
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jan 30, 2005
                                Hi Rick
                                 
                                Thanks for your reply mate.
                                 
                                I'm always curious about the decisions we make as gay men coming out of ex-gay ministries, especially when it comes to our sex lives.
                                 
                                I remember talking with a guy from the USA who shared your concern about catching and STI from a casual encounter. For this fellow it was real fear. I guess I can provide some encouragement as one who used to be a general nurse and add that education about those things we fear goes along way to dispelling many concerns and allowing one to consider their options more thoughtfully.
                                 
                                So how is the celebate thing going?
                                 
                                Andrew


                                Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@...> wrote:


                                Good response Rick. Its sounds like you've put a lot of thought  into the
                                issue. I think it is a personal choice we all have to make and then live in
                                integrity with our beliefs. If its not working then we need to look at what
                                will or what changes we nee to make.

                                Anthony
                                Moderator.

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@...]
                                Sent: Friday, 28 January 2005 00:16
                                To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.



                                Hi there. Andrew. Sure, I'll be happy to answer any question you mau
                                have :)  I'm celibate because at this point in my life, I'm looking
                                for someone to spend my life with. A longterm relationship. Now I am
                                not judging anyone, but sex without some emotional attachment or love
                                is something that I would not find desirable. Having said that, I have
                                to admit there are times when I feel like I just want some anonymous
                                sex. To get some relief... But I'm frightened that if I do this, I'll
                                catch some disease and I certainly do not want that. I know it seems
                                like I contradicted myself, but I'm just human and I have needs. At
                                this point I'm denying myself of fulfilling that need. But I know I'm
                                gay. I guess this is something I need to work on.

                                Blessings,
                                Rick



                                --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, Andrew Jones <acj1968@y...> wrote:
                                > Hi Rick

                                > Thanks for your intro. mate

                                > I was hoping you could answer something for me .... why are you
                                celebate?

                                > Why do you say that sex would be empty if you had a casual "romp in
                                the cot"?

                                > Hope to hear from you soon.

                                > Another Aussie Bum,

                                > Andrew

                                >
                                >
                                > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                                > HI Rick
                                >
                                > Thanks for sharing your story. It's a similar one to many in the
                                > group........but everyone is at different stages in the process.
                                Sounds like
                                > you are making good progress.
                                >
                                > Reparative therapy as you mentioned I incredibly harmful.
                                >
                                > You may find these links helpful
                                >
                                >
                                http://www.hrc.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/Mission_Impossible/ch
                                > ange.pdf
                                >
                                > http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200001.pdf
                                >
                                >
                                > Anthony
                                > Moderator and author of:
                                > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                                > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                                Business
                                > Association
                                > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                                > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                                > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                                accepted,
                                > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                                >
                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: Rick [mailto:rolando_davidian@y...]
                                > Sent: Saturday, 22 January 2005 00:58
                                > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                                >
                                >
                                > Hi everyone, hope all is well with each of you. I've been seriously
                                > busy as I'm back in school. Taking the Computer Science & Engineering
                                > Technology program at the University of Toledo in Toledo, Ohio. There
                                > is a gay/lesbian/bi/transgener student organization on campus, but
                                > I've yet to join up. I also have experienced such hatred and bigotry
                                > from those who claim to be christians. I spent over 9 years in
                                > personal counseling in an attempt to "change" my sexuality with no
                                > success. Desert Stream Ministries is something I know quite well. I
                                > feel these ministries are unhealthy, because they will shame you if
                                > you cannot change. They will say things like, "well, you don't have
                                > enough faith, or you're not being serious enough." What I remember
                                > seeing there was a lot of guys and girls who were just gay and they
                                > were putting themselves through horrible emotional pain because they
                                > felt they needed to change in order to be accepted. This is so sad. If
                                > someone really wants to try and change, that is their choice. But for
                                > me, it did not work and many others have felt the same thing. You
                                > can't change what you were meant to be. All you can do is strive to
                                > live it honestly and with integrity. I'm celibate, but it's so hard to
                                > stay this way. In a sense, I am denying my desires which is not
                                > healthy emotionally or psychologically. However I don't want to just
                                > go out and find someone to have empty sex with either. But dealing
                                > with these feelings can be tough. I've come a long way, there were
                                > times in the past when I felt so guilty for even looking at men. I
                                > would shame myself and try not to notice them. How silly it was now
                                > that I look back on it. If I had just listened to what the inner voice
                                > was saying to me, it would have saved me a lot of pain and grief. But
                                > a lot of times we are so afraid of the truth. We hide from ourselves
                                > the reality of who we are for various reasons. I'm thankful that I do
                                > not feel that guilt anymore over being attracted to other men. But
                                > it's been a long road. Anthony, thanks for allowing me to be a part of
                                > things here.
                                >
                                > Rick
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                                > <anthony.venn-brown@p...> wrote:
                                > > HI Andrew
                                > >
                                > > Thanks for your thoughts and intro.  We look forward to hearing more
                                > form
                                > > you in the future.
                                > >
                                > > Anthony
                                > > Moderator and author of:
                                > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                                > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                                > Business
                                > > Association
                                > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here
                                > > <http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/book.html> .
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay/>
                                > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                                > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                                > accepted,
                                > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: Andrew
                                > Jones [mailto:acj1968@y...]
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 17:41
                                > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: RE: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                                > >
                                > > Hi Tony & Group
                                > >
                                > > There is no doubt that many gay guys and girls place themselves
                                > inawful pain
                                > > trying to chcange their sexual orientation.
                                > >
                                > > I have tried 3 times to be a straight while attending church.
                                > > It was doomed from the beginning but I couldn't see that at the time
                                > because
                                > > I believed what the chrch was teaching me - homosexuality is sin!
                                > >
                                > > I even tried exorcism at this little church in Heathcote,
                                Victoria. The
                                > > senior Pastor and wife must have cast out 13 different demons that
                                day.
                                > > Did it work - absolutley not!
                                > > They even told me that the anti-christ would be gay. I wonder if
                                > Liberace
                                > > was told that ... lol.
                                > >
                                > > Maybe sometime I will tell you all the full story but suffice to say
                                > for now
                                > > I spent years suffering at the hands of others trying to be
                                > something they
                                > > wanted me to be while all the time feeling and desiring the same sex.
                                > >
                                > > If you keep putting 'Jack back in the box' long enough something is
                                > going
                                > > give ... for me it was my state of mind and health.
                                > >
                                > > Exodus, Living Waters and all the other nonsense organisations are
                                > > subjecting precious lives to the control and will of other people.
                                > God never
                                > > intended a person to be miserable while a child of his. Sexual
                                > orientation
                                > > is not a sin. God created us and thats that! I l;ove God and he
                                > loves me as
                                > > a gay man.
                                > >
                                > > Aversion therapy groupsd are terribly misguided and certainly not
                                > true to
                                > > core biblical teaching. I would pray that every person subjected
                                to the
                                > > spiritual terrorism of the myriad of aversion groups in the church
                                > would be
                                > > set free to live and thrive in God's good grace.
                                > >
                                > > Andrew
                                > >
                                > > Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > Its wonderful to see all the positive posts on this group. Have
                                you ever
                                > > been on an ex gay group. The postings are so sad..........sometimes
                                > pathetic
                                > > as people every day talk about how hard there life is and how they
                                > struggle
                                > > to do the impossible...ie change their sexual orientation.
                                > >
                                > > I've also had another person say the Born to be Gay is good reading.
                                > >
                                > > Anthony
                                > > Moderator and author of:
                                > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's Struggle'
                                > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                                > Business
                                > > Association
                                > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay
                                > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to be
                                > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                                > accepted,
                                > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: Legal Alien [mailto:legalAlienInDC@f...]
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 12:53
                                > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com; Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Subject: Re: RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Hi,
                                > >
                                > > its horrible the way some christians treat people - I still remember
                                > seeing
                                > > the "godhatesfaggots" web site and being astounded that anyone
                                > professing
                                > > love for jesus could be so bigoted and angry.
                                > >
                                > > My take on the gay acceptance thing is (and I felt this way myself)
                                > that the
                                > > Bible does appear on the face of it to condemn homosexuality.   Of
                                > course,
                                > > there are reasons why it all isnt quite so simple, but a lot of
                                > > "evangelical" christians are worried that if they let one thread of
                                > their
                                > > faith go, the whole thing will collapse.  It took my falling in love
                                > with a
                                > > man and being exposed to a very good church (www.foundryumc.org) to
                                > show me
                                > > that it really was possible to be gay and a person with a true
                                > faith.  I now
                                > > realise that the whole Bible doesnt fall apart if you understand it in
                                > > different contexts and that indeed, not all of it is necessarily
                                > inspired
                                > > for all time.
                                > >
                                > > On another not, I've just finished an excellent book, "Born to be
                                > Gay" by
                                > > William Nathby, which is a scholarly view of homosexuality through
                                > the ages
                                > > and across cultures.  Unsuprisingly, its been reasonably common across
                                > > cultures and through ythe ages, with some cultures viewing it quite
                                > > positively - its only the monotheistic religions that have opposed
                                it so
                                > > strongly.  The book isnt "pro-gay", beating any sort of drum, but is
                                > very
                                > > good reading (its not Christian either).
                                > >
                                > > Cheers for now.
                                > >
                                > > Alan
                                > >
                                > > ========================================
                                > > Message date : Jan 19 2005, 12:55 AM
                                > > From : "Anthony Venn-Brown Personal Coach"
                                > > <anthony.venn-brown@p...>
                                > > To : Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Copy to :
                                > > Subject : RE: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > <html><body>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > <tt>
                                > > Thanks Edward.<BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > Unfortunately because of the way most of us have been treated many
                                > people
                                > > I<BR>
                                > > find see people in the church as the enemy. If we changed that to
                                > > seeing<BR>
                                > > them as our mission field then our attitude approach and communication
                                > > would<BR>
                                > > be different and get an entirely different outcome.<BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > I see the problem as the same as women in ministry. Many of our
                                > > churches<BR>
                                > > forbade it and had scriptures to prove their position. In most
                                > churches<BR>
                                > > today this is no longer an issue.<BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > It may take 10, 20 or 30 years.......but I believe I will see it in my
                                > > life<BR>
                                > > time.<BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > We will win them over by the lives we live and being who we are.
                                People
                                > > who<BR>
                                > > have peace and a vital relationship with God........and just happen to
                                > > be<BR>
                                > > attracted to the same sex.<BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > Anthony<BR>
                                > > Moderator and author of:<BR>
                                > > 'A Life of Unlearning -Coming Out of the Church - One Man's
                                > Struggle'<BR>
                                > > Winner of the Inaugural Literary Award 2004 Sydney Gay & Lesbian
                                > > Business<BR>
                                > > Association<BR>
                                > > To download Chapter 1 'The Confession' FREE click here.<BR>
                                > > <a
                                > > href=" http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Exex-gay">
                                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/
                                > > Exex-gay</a><BR>
                                > > My sexual orientation is not a sickness to be healed or a sin to
                                be<BR>
                                > > forgiven. My sexual orientation is a gift from my Creator to be
                                > > accepted,<BR>
                                > > celebrated, and lived with integrity.<BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > -----Original Message-----<BR>
                                > > From: edwardxderwent [mailto:edwardxderwent@y...]<BR>
                                > > Sent: Wednesday, 19 January 2005 07:19<BR>
                                > > To: Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com<BR>
                                > > Subject: [Exex-gay] Re: Hi prayer for our anti-gay enemies.<BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > --- In Exex-gay@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony Venn-Brown"
                                <anthony.venn-<BR>
                                > > brown@p...> wrote:<BR>
                                > > ><BR>
                                > > > Amen<BR>
                                > > ><BR>
                                > > > I actually see all antigay christians as my mission field that I
                                > do<BR>
                                > > > what I can to win them over to a greater understanding and
                                convert<BR>
                                > > > them to loving GLBT people.<BR>
                                > > ><BR>
                                > > ><BR>
                                > > > anthony<BR>
                                > > ><BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > just an opinion...<BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > it's a very positive and constructive way to handle the problem.<BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links<BR>
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                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
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                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > <BR>
                                > > </tt>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
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