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"Bagging" your p?

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  • Natty Bumppo
    ... As Jewellee said in a different thread, they don t play euchre in Chicago (or the ukulele). This really is a no brainer. Your best suit is clubs, and
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 2, 2006
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      "Perry Romanowski" <thejoggler@...> wrote:

      > Against twenty-something players from Chicago, you shouldn't pass.
      > Order it up. They don't know about "next", "Dutching", "green" or
      > even the "talon." And only a couple can play the ukulele. . . .


      As "Jewellee" said in a different thread, they don't play euchre in
      Chicago (or the ukulele).

      This really is a "no brainer." Your best suit is clubs, and there is
      a fair chance you will get to call it. If third hand orders or first
      hand calls "next," you have a very good shot at a euchre, for twice
      the score you would get by ordering. If your partner picks up, you
      have support beyond his hope. If first hand calls "green," you have
      him stopped. Practically the only way you can LOSE two points is by
      ordering up.

      I don't care whether I am playing in Chicago, Columbus or Arkansas, I
      pass.


      "Sword_4_hire" <fastfredy0@...> wrote:

      > I didn't find the question to be a 'no-brainer.' It is a rare
      > situation in which you would do better against against good
      > competition. . . . Perhaps, with very timid opposition I would
      > ORDER. . . . Anyways -- my answer is PASS.


      If the opposition is timid, YOU get to call "next." You have three
      trump in one hand in "next," not likely in what is turned. "Next" is
      more likely a better suit for you and your partner than what you'd order.


      "jewellee6000" wrote:

      > In second seat you hold Js Jc 10c Jd Kh. 9s is up. Order or pass?
    • Perry Romanowski
      Uncle.
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 2, 2006
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        Uncle. 

        On 3/2/06, Natty Bumppo <borf@...> wrote:
        "Perry Romanowski" <thejoggler@...> wrote:

        > Against twenty-something players from Chicago, you shouldn't pass.
        > Order it up.  They don't know about "next", "Dutching", "green" or
        > even the "talon."  And only a couple can play the ukulele. . . .


        As "Jewellee" said in a different thread, they don't play euchre in
        Chicago (or the ukulele).

        This really is a "no brainer."  Your best suit is clubs, and there is
        a fair chance you will get to call it.  If third hand orders or first
        hand calls "next," you have a very good shot at a euchre, for twice
        the score you would get by ordering.  If your partner picks up, you
        have support beyond his hope.  If first hand calls "green," you have
        him stopped.  Practically the only way you can LOSE two points is by
        ordering up.

        I don't care whether I am playing in Chicago, Columbus or Arkansas, I
        pass.



        "Sword_4_hire" <fastfredy0@...> wrote:

        > I didn't find the question to be a 'no-brainer.'  It is a rare
        > situation in which you would do better against against good
        > competition. . . .  Perhaps, with very timid opposition I would
        > ORDER. . . .  Anyways -- my answer is PASS.


        If the opposition is timid, YOU get to call "next."  You have three
        trump in one hand in "next," not likely in what is turned.  "Next" is
        more likely a better suit for you and your partner than what you'd order.



        "jewellee6000" wrote:

        > In second seat you hold Js Jc 10c Jd Kh.  9s is up.  Order or pass?





        YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS




      • Joseph J Cravero
        If you have BOTH red jacks, I could see passing. But it is entirely possible that first has 5 cards in either red suit for a certain point, and you can likely
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 3, 2006
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          If you have BOTH red jacks, I could see passing. But it is entirely
          possible that first has 5 cards in either red suit for a certain
          point, and you can likely score an easy 1 or march on an order.

          Even if I have JJAKc, I do not bag for next unless we're getting
          creamed. I order the club for the nearly sure point.

          > In second seat you hold Js Jc 10c Jd Kh. 9s is up. Order or pass?
          >
        • Todd
          Euchre hand: a hand with a sure trick in any suit. Meaning the odds are greater for euchre hand holder to euchre opponents for two points than to order/make
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 5, 2006
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            Euchre hand:  a hand with a sure trick in any suit.

            Meaning the odds are greater for euchre hand holder to euchre opponents for two points than to order/make with a likelyhood of getting euchred.)

            I'm very tempted to order 9S, and probably would knowing "P" would void self of another suit if possible. It's just getting over the temptation isn't it. Patience. Ha.


            --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "jewellee6000" <jewellee6000@...> wrote:
            >
            > Anyone else want to weigh in on this no-brainer hand? I think I'd have
            > a hard time passing an almost sure point in spades. True there is a
            > pretty sure euchre if opps call next, and the possibility of a set if
            > opps call red, but I'd really feel unhappy if my p had another spade
            > and the opps were to score a point in red. Passing both bowers is a
            > bootable (not to mention shootable) offense in my opinion, so I
            > wouldn't do it unless I had a really good reason. Is this hand a good
            > enough reason, I wonder?
            >
            > --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "Natty Bumppo" borf@ wrote:
            > >
            > > It's a "euchre hand." Pass. No brainer.
            > >
            > >
            > > "ruthenium4" <thejoggler@> wrote:
            > >
            > > > I'd order it up. That off-king just might take a trick and your
            > > > partner is likely to get short suited. No brainer.
            > >
            > >
            > > "jewellee6000" wrote:
            > >
            > > > In second seat you hold Js Jc 10c Jd Kh. 9s is up. Order or pass?
            > >
            >

          • Natty Bumppo
            ... That s a bit of a stretch. But the odds ARE greater for a higher net score that way, as Sword_for_hire reported, because of the double indemnity for a
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 5, 2006
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              "Todd" <jtmwingnut@...> wrote:

              > Euchre hand: a hand with a sure trick in any suit. Meaning the
              > odds are greater for euchre hand holder to euchre opponents
              > for two points than to order/make with a likelyhood of getting
              > euchred.)

              That's a bit of a stretch. But the odds ARE greater for a higher net
              score that way, as Sword_for_hire reported, because of the double
              indemnity for a euchre.


              and "Todd" <jtmwingnut@...> wrote:

              > I'm very tempted to order 9S, and probably would knowing "P" would
              > void self of another suit if possible. It's just getting over the
              > temptation isn't it. Patience. Ha.

              I'm not even tempted. This is one of those rare situations when a
              trump lead on defense is not ill-advised -- when the dealer's partner
              orders a small card. A trump lead will force second hand up and may
              strip the dealer of a singleton trump.


              "jewellee6000" wrote:

              > In second seat you hold Js Jc 10c Jd Kh. 9s is up. Order or pass?
            • Todd
              So if this euchre hand (JS, JC, 10C, JD, KH) makes it around to 1st chair again, a call next is a sure euchre and a green Heart or Diamond call can surely be
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 5, 2006
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                So if this euchre hand (JS, JC, 10C, JD, KH) makes it around to 1st
                chair again, a call next is a sure euchre and a green Heart or Diamond
                call can surely be stopped. What are the chances of 1st chair leading
                trump on a spade order from 2nd chair? 50/50? Which leads to another
                question of when second orders 9, 10, Q, or K into dealers hand, what
                required cards should 1st chair have in hand to lead trump on defense
                and be somewhat sure opponents won't march on you? One trump and an ace?
                How about what to lead with two trump and a Heart/Diamond doubleton.
                Would you lead the lower doubleton, trump in and then lead second
                doubleton; or lead one of two trump?

                Can you see I'm fighting for temptation? Hopefully I'll have more
                patience tomorrow.

                -- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "Natty Bumppo" <borf@...> wrote:
                >
                > "Todd" jtmwingnut@ wrote:
                >
                > > Euchre hand: a hand with a sure trick in any suit. Meaning the
                > > odds are greater for euchre hand holder to euchre opponents
                > > for two points than to order/make with a likelyhood of getting
                > > euchred.)
                >
                > That's a bit of a stretch. But the odds ARE greater for a higher net
                > score that way, as Sword_for_hire reported, because of the double
                > indemnity for a euchre.
                >
                >
                > and "Todd" jtmwingnut@ wrote:
                >
                > > I'm very tempted to order 9S, and probably would knowing "P" would
                > > void self of another suit if possible. It's just getting over the
                > > temptation isn't it. Patience. Ha.
                >
                > I'm not even tempted. This is one of those rare situations when a
                > trump lead on defense is not ill-advised -- when the dealer's partner
                > orders a small card. A trump lead will force second hand up and may
                > strip the dealer of a singleton trump.
                >
                >
                > "jewellee6000" wrote:
                >
                > > In second seat you hold Js Jc 10c Jd Kh. 9s is up. Order or pass?
                >
              • Natty Bumppo
                ... I d say not nearly that high, but it s not calculable: It depends as much on the player as on the cards he holds. Some numbnocks will lead trump on
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 5, 2006
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                  "Todd" <jtmwingnut@...> wrote:

                  > So [on] this euchre hand (JS, JC, 10C, JD, KH) . . . what are the
                  > chances of 1st chair leading trump on a spade order from 2nd chair?
                  > 50/50?

                  I'd say not nearly that high, but it's not calculable: It depends as
                  much on the player as on the cards he holds. Some numbnocks will lead
                  trump on defense just because "I've heard that's a good idea once in a
                  while," or even "I've heard you should always do that." Better
                  players will do it only when there's a good reason, as here.


                  > Which leads to another question of when second orders 9, 10, Q, or K
                  > into dealer's hand, what required cards should 1st chair have in
                  > hand to lead trump on defense and be somewhat sure opponents won't
                  > march on you? . . .

                  THAT can be calculated. But without going through the simulations, I
                  would say you ought to have at least two "lay" aces (as the
                  "Professor" would call them off suit) or a stopper in trump -- A-x-x,
                  in this case.


                  > One trump and an ace? How about what to lead with two trump and a
                  > Heart/Diamond doubleton. Would you lead the lower doubleton, trump
                  > in and then lead second doubleton; or lead one of two trump? . . .

                  Enough questions already, for a Sunday morning.
                • sword_4_hire3
                  Too many questions for a Sunday .... but I will go where angels fear to trod. ... agreed Some numbnocks will lead ... Better players almost always do
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 5, 2006
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                    Too many questions for a Sunday  ....  but I will go where angels fear to trod.


                    --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "Natty Bumppo" <borf@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > "Todd" jtmwingnut@ wrote:
                    >
                    > > So [on] this euchre hand (JS, JC, 10C, JD, KH) . . . what are the
                    > > chances of 1st chair leading trump on a spade order from 2nd chair?
                    > > 50/50?
                    >
                    > I'd say not nearly that high, but it's not calculable: It depends as
                    > much on the player as on the cards he holds.
                    agreed
                    Some numbnocks will lead
                    > trump on defense just because "I've heard that's a good idea once in a
                    > while," or even "I've heard you should always do that." Better
                    > players will do it only when there's a good reason, as here.
                    Better players almost always do 'whatever' for a good reason... that is self-evident.  What is not self-evident in this circumstance is 'what do better players do'.... or more to the point, what is the right thing to do. 
                    >
                    >
                    > > Which leads to another question of when second orders 9, 10, Q, or K
                    > > into dealer's hand, what required cards should 1st chair have in
                    > > hand to lead trump on defense and be somewhat sure opponents won't
                    > > march on you? . . .  ah, to the crux of the matter  :D
                    >
                    > THAT can be calculated. But without going through the simulations, I
                    > would say you ought to have at least two "lay" aces (as the
                    > "Professor" would call them off suit) or a stopper in trump -- A-x-x,
                    > in this case.
                    >
                    >
                    > > One trump and an ace? How about what to lead with two trump and a
                    > > Heart/Diamond doubleton. Would you lead the lower doubleton, trump
                    > > in and then lead second doubleton; or lead one of two trump? . . .
                    >
                    > Enough questions already, for a Sunday morning.

                    My 'stab' at the question .....
                    Assuming the score is 0 - 0  and 2nd seat ordered up and didn't go alone....

                    If you have a TRUMP.... ALWAYS LEAD IT....

                    Why ....
                    1)  K.I.S.S. rule....simple to follow 
                    2) The 4th seat has a minimum of 1 trump.... and there is a high probability the 4th seat has created a void in a suit in which he does not have and ACE.  You and YOUR PARTNER'S Aces in that suit are vulnerable to a rough by the 4th seat till trump has been played.
                    3)  Obviously, the more offsuit Aces you have the better this strategy is.  Obviously, the more Aces your partner has, the better this strategy is.  Unfortunately, you do not know how many Aces 3rd seat has.  (I submit, if 3rd seat has Zero Aces and you have ZERO...you often won't win a trick anyways)

                    Exceptions:   Yes... a few...not many.....if  1st seat is winning 9-8 then I keep my protected Left for example.
                    1)  You had Right / Ace of trump and no off suit aces
                    2) You have singleton Left and a void suit(s)
                    3) You have 2 trump and 3 carded suit or 2 trump and 2 carded suit to the King high

                    Aside:  You might be surprised how often lead a small trump from the Left/ spot works
                    Aside:  Leading the unprotected left when you do not have an offsuit void may work better than you think


                    Hmmm....  I have proposed a
                    "rule of thumb" .....  but, before you submit arguments  ....propose your own "rule of thumb" that is better....only then I will join you in the battle of ideas .....  (smiles) 


                    >
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