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Don't argue with success - Natty's column

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  • Gerry Blue
    Natty s column Don t argue with success dated 7/3/2009 has been uploaded to our files area. You can read it by going to
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 3, 2009
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      Natty's column "Don't argue with success" dated 7/3/2009 has been uploaded to our files area.  You can read it by going to http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/EuchreScience/files/Natty/2009/Natty_2009_07_03.html

      Gerry

    • pimped_her_out
      Looking at 1 particular hand under a microscope can sometimes be problematic. 1 reason for this is that there may be several factors determining a player s
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 3, 2009
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        Looking at 1 particular hand under a microscope can sometimes be problematic. 1 reason for this is that there may be several factors determining a player's action/decision which may or may not be obvious to some1 looking from the outside in, or even for another player in the exact same game to comprehend.

        As the author of the column is no doubt aware, a match of euchre is a fluid and dynamic thing, what is correct in one situation may not always be correct in another similar situation and sometimes it is close to impossible to say what is correct or incorrect. For the most part none of this comes into a game of euchre except when being played at a reasonably high level.

        The author passing in 3rd seat with a sure point and quite possibly two points is an example of this. Surely he would normally think that this play is horrendously bad but in this particular instance he decided it was called for; given the dealer's tendencies with picking up very often and possibly his partner's tendencies of being willing to go "next" with very weak hands and also the score/situation of the game itself. I feel the 3rd seat pass is horrendous in almost every situation possible and I try to avoid blanket statements when it comes to euchre, but my opinion on this is beside the point.

        From my own experience of playing with the author I can say that he is quick to make comment sometimes before he has even seen the compeltion of a hand or seen what other cards his partner held. On top of this his advice is completely from a self-involved point of view and biased by what he holds and what he would like his partner to have done. This is evident in him remarking that the 3rd seat's order was the "wrong color" yes it was the wrong color from the author's perspective but from the 1st seat player's perspective it was likely a very standard play.

        Similarly to how the author had his "reasons" for passing a massive hand in 3rd seat maybe his partner also had "reasons" for doing what he did.

        "2. Another time, Our Esteemed Opponent went alone in hearts, as dealer, and you led the ace of diamonds (which OEO took with a small trump). Your lead did, in fact, squeeze me, because I had both black aces. Fortunately OEO was short and his loner was stopped anyway."

        Again... his lead is wrong based on the author's self-involved point of view. He probably has a good reason for his lead like he has K-9 in another suit which he is saving for the end. Of course this is completely irrelevant to the author, all he cares about is that he has 2 aces and this lead from his partner is incorrect because it does not fit in to his own plans.
      • Perry Romanowski
        There aren t many people who have the ability to consider all the alternate scenarios that lead to plays which seem like mistakes. It s difficult to know what
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 4, 2009
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          There aren't many people who have the ability to consider all the
          alternate scenarios that lead to plays which seem like mistakes. It's
          difficult to know what you don't know.

          This is why criticisms & arguments about any specific play are
          unproductive (except in the confines of the ES message board) and are
          best avoided during a match.

          Abruptly leaving was probably the best course of action.
        • bananastew
          ... IMO - Button up the comments - finish the game - then leave, is the mature course of action. ***The score 7-7 and a king, queen or 9 is the upcard, I m in
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 4, 2009
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            --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, Perry Romanowski <thejoggler@...> wrote:
            >
            > There aren't many people who have the ability to consider all the
            > alternate scenarios that lead to plays which seem like mistakes. It's
            > difficult to know what you don't know.
            >
            > This is why criticisms & arguments about any specific play are
            > unproductive (except in the confines of the ES message board) and are
            > best avoided during a match.
            >
            > Abruptly leaving was probably the best course of action.

            IMO - Button up the comments - finish the game - then leave,  is the mature course of action.

            ***The score 7-7 and a king, queen or 9 is the upcard, I'm in 1st with nothing! Never, Never, would I donate.  

             

          • pimped_her_out
            For once we agree... except I would go further to say that even with a Jack up at 7-7 a donation should not even be a consideration. With regard to what the
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 4, 2009
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              For once we agree... except I would go further to say that even with a Jack up at 7-7 a donation should not even be a consideration.

              With regard to what the player did in 1st seat... IMO 3 low trump double suited with an Ace is probably the weakest hand I'm ever "crossing" with, having said that it is still a super rediculously standard play given the lack of any other available options.

              --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "bananastew" <bookcasedust@...> wrote:
              > ***The score 7-7 and a king, queen or 9 is the upcard, I'm in 1st with
              > nothing! Never, Never, would I donate.
              >
            • Amy
              Over the years I talk less & less on yahoo euchre, in fact, I m almost silent now, I m not there to chat, buttttt, score was 7-7, my partner in first ordered
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 4, 2009
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                Over the years I talk less & less on yahoo euchre, in fact, I'm almost silent now, I'm not there to chat, buttttt, score was 7-7, my partner in first ordered up a "loner stop", (all the trump was in my hand so he stopped my loner), they got 2, score now 7-9, they called on the last hand & game over. Before I left, I was so upset I told my partner "This is why I don't call loner stops" and flew away. I've made up my mind after playing some ungodly amount of yahoo euchre, I will never order up a loner stop. I've lost more games this exact way than with loners.
                If I wake up in time, I'll try to be thar tomorrow.
                Happy 4th everyone! Amy --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "bananastew" <bookcasedust@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, Perry Romanowski <thejoggler@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > There aren't many people who have the ability to consider all the
                > > alternate scenarios that lead to plays which seem like mistakes. It's
                > > difficult to know what you don't know.
                > >
                > > This is why criticisms & arguments about any specific play are
                > > unproductive (except in the confines of the ES message board) and are
                > > best avoided during a match.
                > >
                > > Abruptly leaving was probably the best course of action.
                >
                > IMO - Button up the comments - finish the game - then leave, is the
                > mature course of action.
                >
                > ***The score 7-7 and a king, queen or 9 is the upcard, I'm in 1st with
                > nothing! Never, Never, would I donate.
                >
              • Amy
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 4, 2009
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                  Let me explain this further; obviously all the trump wasn't in my hand, just both jacks, offsuit ace & an offsuit ace/K, the dealer had the rest so I suppose in this situation, either way we would be out 2 points because I would order and I might go alone, but usually anytime my partners call loner stops, we end up losing the game. Also, 82% of the time I'm in 3rd sitting with the left guarded or the r.--- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "Amy" <AIMEECAKES@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Over the years I talk less & less on yahoo euchre, in fact, I'm almost silent now, I'm not there to chat, buttttt, score was 7-7, my partner in first ordered up a "loner stop", (all the trump was in my hand so he stopped my loner), they got 2, score now 7-9, they called on the last hand & game over. Before I left, I was so upset I told my partner "This is why I don't call loner stops" and flew away. I've made up my mind after playing some ungodly amount of yahoo euchre, I will never order up a loner stop. I've lost more games this exact way than with loners.
                  > If I wake up in time, I'll try to be thar tomorrow.
                  > Happy 4th everyone! Amy --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "bananastew" <bookcasedust@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, Perry Romanowski <thejoggler@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > There aren't many people who have the ability to consider all the
                  > > > alternate scenarios that lead to plays which seem like mistakes. It's
                  > > > difficult to know what you don't know.
                  > > >
                  > > > This is why criticisms & arguments about any specific play are
                  > > > unproductive (except in the confines of the ES message board) and are
                  > > > best avoided during a match.
                  > > >
                  > > > Abruptly leaving was probably the best course of action.
                  > >
                  > > IMO - Button up the comments - finish the game - then leave, is the
                  > > mature course of action.
                  > >
                  > > ***The score 7-7 and a king, queen or 9 is the upcard, I'm in 1st with
                  > > nothing! Never, Never, would I donate.
                  > >
                  >
                • Amy
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 4, 2009
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                    btw, if I show up to any of these be thar tournaments, I won't take it personal if my partner here calls a loner stop. I know I'm outnumbered as far as my belief of not calling them. I'll try not to take my evening nap tomorrow and I hope I don't fall asleep watching tv. Like I said before, I'll get my energy back in the fall.zzzzzz--- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "Amy" <AIMEECAKES@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Let me explain this further; obviously all the trump wasn't in my hand, just both jacks, offsuit ace & an offsuit ace/K, the dealer had the rest so I suppose in this situation, either way we would be out 2 points because I would order and I might go alone, but usually anytime my partners call loner stops, we end up losing the game. Also, 82% of the time I'm in 3rd sitting with the left guarded or the r.--- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "Amy" <AIMEECAKES@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Over the years I talk less & less on yahoo euchre, in fact, I'm almost silent now, I'm not there to chat, buttttt, score was 7-7, my partner in first ordered up a "loner stop", (all the trump was in my hand so he stopped my loner), they got 2, score now 7-9, they called on the last hand & game over. Before I left, I was so upset I told my partner "This is why I don't call loner stops" and flew away. I've made up my mind after playing some ungodly amount of yahoo euchre, I will never order up a loner stop. I've lost more games this exact way than with loners.
                    > > If I wake up in time, I'll try to be thar tomorrow.
                    > > Happy 4th everyone! Amy --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, "bananastew" <bookcasedust@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In EuchreScience@yahoogroups.com, Perry Romanowski <thejoggler@>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > There aren't many people who have the ability to consider all the
                    > > > > alternate scenarios that lead to plays which seem like mistakes. It's
                    > > > > difficult to know what you don't know.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This is why criticisms & arguments about any specific play are
                    > > > > unproductive (except in the confines of the ES message board) and are
                    > > > > best avoided during a match.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Abruptly leaving was probably the best course of action.
                    > > >
                    > > > IMO - Button up the comments - finish the game - then leave, is the
                    > > > mature course of action.
                    > > >
                    > > > ***The score 7-7 and a king, queen or 9 is the upcard, I'm in 1st with
                    > > > nothing! Never, Never, would I donate.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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