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Glamoury Revisited

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  • Frances Osborne
    Warning! Earth Friendly Post! Recycled Post Topic! (sorry couldn t help myself!) Just when you thought the discussion on glamoury was dead, I came across some
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 1, 2008
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      Warning! Earth Friendly Post! Recycled Post Topic!
      (sorry couldn't help myself!)

      Just when you thought the discussion on glamoury was dead, I came
      across some glamoury spells yesterday. When we were discussing
      glamoury, I didn't come across any when I was googling "glamoury" but i
      did come across some yesterdy while looking for other kinds of spells:

      http://www.everythingunderthemoon.net/spells/beauty-spells.htm

      These spells seem to be about the self rather than attracting someone
      to you (like a love spell) but it may be that both have the same intent
      (attracting people to you) by making yourself look better.

      I wonder: does this circumvent the ethics of using spells to "force" to
      come to you? Is it more like "encouraging" someone to come to you?

      blessings, Frances
    • Stephanie
      Tricky, tricky. I don t think it s as simple as that. I can see casting a Come to me spell (popular in some New Orleans and Brujaeris circles on onesself.
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 2, 2008
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        Tricky, tricky. I don't think it's as simple as that. I can see
        casting a "Come to me" spell (popular in some New Orleans and
        Brujaeris circles on onesself. It's coersive (IMHO), but it was cast
        technically on yourself.

        I guess the difference for me is that a beauty spell is one is
        persuasion (the other person has not lost their ability to refuse),
        and the "Come to me" or "Lover come back" spells come closers to
        compelling someone.

        Namaste,
        Stephanie

        P.S. I keep having the words of a customer from last week ringing in
        my ears...

        "I ain't getting no lovin'!! Whachu got i here to fix that? And I
        don't mean no holdin' hands stuff, neither!"


        --- In Ethical_Witches@yahoogroups.com, "Frances Osborne"
        <osborne35@...> wrote:
        >
        > snip <
        >
        > http://www.everythingunderthemoon.net/spells/beauty-spells.htm
        >
        > These spells seem to be about the self rather than attracting
        someone
        > to you (like a love spell) but it may be that both have the same
        intent
        > (attracting people to you) by making yourself look better.
        >
        > I wonder: does this circumvent the ethics of using spells
        to "force" to
        > come to you? Is it more like "encouraging" someone to come to you?
        >
        > blessings, Frances
        >
      • Frances Osborne
        I ain t getting no lovin !! Whachu got i here to fix that? And I don t mean no holdin hands stuff, neither! Okay Stephanie you made me spew tea all over my
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 2, 2008
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          "I ain't getting no lovin'!! Whachu got i here to fix that? And I
          don't mean no holdin' hands stuff, neither!"

          Okay Stephanie you made me spew tea all over my computer because I was laughing so hard!

          What on earth is the difference between "persuading" someone to come to you and "encouraging" someone to come to you?  If I call up a person and encourage them to come over, I am indeed trying to persuade them to come over, because I want them to come over. I will try to "glamorize" it if you will, if they are unsure, by tempting them with good company, good conversation, good music, etc.  But I sure as heck don't want them to lose their free will and in the end, a no is still a no.
           
          So, I don't understand --- are "come to me" love spells also glamoury spells? Because I thought that these glamoury spells (in the form of beauty spells)were just supernatural sales jobs! It's a way of selling yourself to bring someone closer to you.

           take care Frances


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        • Luna Skywalker
          Greetings Everyone: Got to offer my 2cents on this topic...*smiles and nods* My Daughter has been raise w/ my beliefs (although) she is not actively practicing
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 2, 2008
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            Greetings Everyone:
             
            Got to offer my 2cents on this topic...*smiles and nods*
             
            My Daughter has been raise w/ my beliefs (although) she is not actively practicing Ritual...

            I have taught her to understand that the "Glamour" can be cast on many levels (even by those who do not actively practice "Magic")...We explored things like advertising, Religion,
            cosmetics--which she has always disdained--etc....
             
            I taught her that these things are merely a mask (take Botox--for instance)...She understands that on some level all of these things are a lie designed to hide the real "you"--furthermore, it is my personal belief that most can cause actual harm--if taken to excess...
             
            I learned how well her lessons had taken hold on the day we went to the Library and she called me over to the "Teen" section to see a pretty little pink (hard-backed) book...It had Flowers and Hearts and promised (on the cover) to be a book of Love Spells that guaranteed to help you get your true Love...
             
            My Daughter said, "Look Mom--a book of Left-path Spells (and it's in the kid's section)!
             
            We flipped through the book (together) and went over the Spells one by one as we discussed why it was a mistake to try and influence someone to do something they weren't willing to do of their own accord...We discussed what the repercussions could be and how the author and publishing company had marketed this book specifically to an under aged audience--luring them purposely into dabbling...
             
            This is how I have taught my Daughter that the "Craft" and personal gain do not mix...Money muddies the Waters and causes people to do things that they shouldn't (like using desire to sell a product--or coercing someone to do something against their will)...
             
            **Soap-box being stored in the closet for another day...
             
            Thanks for posting this topic...
             
            Peace and Love on the path of Your Choice...
             
            Blessed be...
            Frances Osborne <osborne35@...> wrote:
            "I ain't getting no lovin'!! Whachu got i here to fix that? And I
            don't mean no holdin' hands stuff, neither!"

            Okay Stephanie you made me spew tea all over my computer because I was laughing so hard!

            What on earth is the difference between "persuading" someone to come to you and "encouraging" someone to come to you?  If I call up a person and encourage them to come over, I am indeed trying to persuade them to come over, because I want them to come over. I will try to "glamorize" it if you will, if they are unsure, by tempting them with good company, good conversation, good music, etc.  But I sure as heck don't want them to lose their free will and in the end, a no is still a no.
             
            So, I don't understand --- are "come to me" love spells also glamoury spells? Because I thought that these glamoury spells (in the form of beauty spells)were just supernatural sales jobs! It's a way of selling yourself to bring someone closer to you.

             take care Frances


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          • Luna Skywalker
            Casting a Love and Goodwill Spell to open your heart and your life to Love and Positive Energy is as far as I would go with this one... Energy attracts like
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 2, 2008
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              Casting a Love and Goodwill Spell to open your heart and your life to Love and Positive Energy is as far as I would go with this one...
               
              Energy attracts like Energy--if you are going through life in as positive a manner as possible
              (drawing boundaries and wisely choosing those with who you share your life)--then what you need will come to you (in a way that endures)...
               
              Peace and Love on the path to Lover's Lane...
               
              Blessed be...

              Stephanie <thunderhoofdesigns@...> wrote:
              Tricky, tricky. I don't think it's as simple as that. I can see
              casting a "Come to me" spell (popular in some New Orleans and
              Brujaeris circles on onesself. It's coersive (IMHO), but it was cast
              technically on yourself.

              I guess the difference for me is that a beauty spell is one is
              persuasion (the other person has not lost their ability to refuse),
              and the "Come to me" or "Lover come back" spells come closers to
              compelling someone.

              Namaste,
              Stephanie

              P.S. I keep having the words of a customer from last week ringing in
              my ears...

              "I ain't getting no lovin'!! Whachu got i here to fix that? And I
              don't mean no holdin' hands stuff, neither!"


              --- In Ethical_Witches@yahoogroups.com, "Frances Osborne"
              wrote:
              >
              > snip <
              >
              > http://www.everythingunderthemoon.net/spells/beauty-spells.htm
              >
              > These spells seem to be about the self rather than attracting
              someone
              > to you (like a love spell) but it may be that both have the same
              intent
              > (attracting people to you) by making yourself look better.
              >
              > I wonder: does this circumvent the ethics of using spells
              to "force" to
              > come to you? Is it more like "encouraging" someone to come to you?
              >
              > blessings, Frances
              >



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            • Jessica Tucker
              I d like to jump in with a topic I have been thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was looking over Ceisiwr Serith s homepage (authour of the Book of
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 2, 2008
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                I'd like to jump in with a topic I have been
                thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of the
                Book of Pagan prayer) at
                http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/, I noticed he had a
                selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                difficult concept to explain, so let me quote directly
                from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from Europe
                or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that it
                is important that they be practiced as much like they
                were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                accomadation to modern sensibilities...
                American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                this mean?...
                ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And in
                part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                uniquely American, then strongly American --
                historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                is, however, something that is shared by all
                Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                practice...
                A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches, and
                the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular meaning?
                What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated with
                America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                to be seen as allegories, without acting like we were
                the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                fascinating and important questions; in their answers
                may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                would look like."
                This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                more. There are several interesting links on the
                webpage, but information about actual practice is
                sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type of
                Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your worship?
                And, perhaps the biggest question, what does American
                Paganism mean to you?
              • Luna Skywalker
                Wow--Jessica--awesome post--thanks for sharing... Merry do we meet and well met we are (indeed)... To me American Paganism and every form of Paganism is as
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 2, 2008
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                  Wow--Jessica--awesome post--thanks for sharing...
                   
                  Merry do we meet and well met we are (indeed)...
                   
                  To me American Paganism and every form of Paganism is as varied and unique as each individual that practices...
                   
                  My brand is all inclusive--encompassing the Seeds of Wisdom that I have gleaned along the path I have been Seeking for nearly (14) Wheels (Beltane marked the beginning of my 9th Wheel of active practice)...
                   
                  Can you narrow it down a bit???Is there anything in particular that piques your curiosity??? 

                  Jessica Tucker <jealtu@...> wrote:
                  I'd like to jump in with a topic I have been
                  thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                  looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of the
                  Book of Pagan prayer) at
                  http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/, I noticed he had a
                  selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                  difficult concept to explain, so let me quote directly
                  from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                  "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                  forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from Europe
                  or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that it
                  is important that they be practiced as much like they
                  were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                  have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                  accomadation to modern sensibilities...
                  American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                  America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                  this mean?...
                  ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                  America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                  sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                  government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                  from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                  days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And in
                  part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                  uniquely American, then strongly American --
                  historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                  speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                  But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                  is, however, something that is shared by all
                  Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                  practice...
                  A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                  worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                  secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches, and
                  the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular meaning?
                  What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated with
                  America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                  to be seen as allegories, without acting like we were
                  the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                  fascinating and important questions; in their answers
                  may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                  would look like."
                  This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                  more. There are several interesting links on the
                  webpage, but information about actual practice is
                  sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type of
                  Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your worship?
                  And, perhaps the biggest question, what does American
                  Paganism mean to you?





                  ------------------------------------

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                • Frances Osborne
                  American paganism... Here are some ideas.... appalachian folk magic ozark magic granny magic root doctor these seem pretty american to me even if some of the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jun 2, 2008
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                    American paganism...
                    Here are some ideas....
                    appalachian folk magic
                    ozark magic
                    granny magic
                    root doctor
                     
                    these seem pretty "american" to me even if some of the practices were brought over by the irish



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                  • Frances Osborne
                    Okay it took me a few tries: Appalachian Granny Magic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Granny_Magic
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jun 2, 2008
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                      Okay it took me a few tries:
                      Appalachian Granny Magic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_Granny_Magic
                      http://groups.msn.com/silverdragons/yourwebpage8.msnw --- little article on AGM
                      This apparently is a combo of European witchcraft and Cherokee beliefs.
                      Feri (Cora and Victor Anderson) is uniquely homegrown and Cora came from a strong hill witch tradition and her grandfather was an old time root doctor.
                      I bet Stephanie could contribute more to this than I could.
                       
                      blessings Frances


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                    • Mithriel Salmon
                      OK, I am going to step out on a different limb here. To me, American paganism is a term used by a single scholar to define a group of people in a way he can
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jun 2, 2008
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                        OK, I am going to step out on a different limb here.  To me, American paganism is a term used by a single scholar to define a group of people in a way he can understand. The old religions do not need to be redefined. Integrating new things into old religions is common sense and happens in every aspect of all groups of people.
                         
                          For example: We have a sweat lodge at The Magick House (built for my Native American friends who appreciate that ritual).  An elder from a Nation in the Northwestern part of the USA saw the sweatlodge last year, in need of repair. We made it out of cedar branches here, on this property. I explained it was time to rebuild it and asked for some input. Her respone was, "Mithriel, Use pvc!  If it was around when the indians first started sweatlodges they would have used it too!"
                         
                           My point?  Changing materials, tools, locations over time doesn't change anything else. We aren't different because our culture is changing. We are only different in our resources.

                        On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Jessica Tucker <jealtu@...> wrote:

                        I'd like to jump in with a topic I have been
                        thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                        looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of the
                        Book of Pagan prayer) at
                        http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/, I noticed he had a
                        selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                        difficult concept to explain, so let me quote directly
                        from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                        "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                        forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from Europe
                        or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that it
                        is important that they be practiced as much like they
                        were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                        have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                        accomadation to modern sensibilities...
                        American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                        America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                        this mean?...
                        ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                        America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                        sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                        government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                        from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                        days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And in
                        part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                        uniquely American, then strongly American --
                        historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                        speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                        But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                        is, however, something that is shared by all
                        Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                        practice...
                        A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                        worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                        secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches, and
                        the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular meaning?
                        What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated with
                        America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                        to be seen as allegories, without acting like we were
                        the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                        fascinating and important questions; in their answers
                        may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                        would look like."
                        This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                        more. There are several interesting links on the
                        webpage, but information about actual practice is
                        sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type of
                        Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your worship?
                        And, perhaps the biggest question, what does American
                        Paganism mean to you?




                        --
                        Lady Mithriel* HPS
                        Coven of the Enchanted Star
                        www.cotessite.org
                        cotessite@...

                        LYL & L ..... be careful! ;) "md"*

                        ".......every minute of every day"

                        ~"It's not about the condition of the road, or which path we travel.....it's all about the journey."~
                      • Luna Skywalker
                        I Love that--thanks for sharing this perspective!!! Now--in my opinion--if you wanted to study true American Paganism--it would have to start w/ the Native
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jun 3, 2008
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                          I Love that--thanks for sharing this perspective!!!
                           
                          Now--in my opinion--if you wanted to study "true" American Paganism--it would have to start w/ the Native American Traditions and Practices...
                           
                          My Daughter and I went on a field trip to the Alabama Coushatta Reservation when she was in the first grade (my Daughter just graduated high school last Saturday)...
                           
                          I was transfixed by the unbelievably magnetic energy that was living there the whole entire time...I wanted to wander off into the Forest on my own--it was all I could do to stay w/ the group...The connection was perceived by the tour Guide and several other residents--They kept looking at me the entire time I was there and I think They were very curious--but never said anything...
                           
                          My point--there is a deep connection to MotherEarth living there...I believe that connection still exists to this day--because They have continued to honor Their Traditions, Rituals, and Practices...Spirit walks there right beside Them--I was nearly overcome by it...

                          Mithriel Salmon <cotessite@...> wrote:
                          OK, I am going to step out on a different limb here.  To me, American paganism is a term used by a single scholar to define a group of people in a way he can understand. The old religions do not need to be redefined. Integrating new things into old religions is common sense and happens in every aspect of all groups of people.
                           
                            For example: We have a sweat lodge at The Magick House (built for my Native American friends who appreciate that ritual).  An elder from a Nation in the Northwestern part of the USA saw the sweatlodge last year, in need of repair. We made it out of cedar branches here, on this property. I explained it was time to rebuild it and asked for some input. Her respone was, "Mithriel, Use pvc!  If it was around when the indians first started sweatlodges they would have used it too!"
                           
                             My point?  Changing materials, tools, locations over time doesn't change anything else. We aren't different because our culture is changing. We are only different in our resources.

                          On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Jessica Tucker <jealtu@...> wrote:
                          I'd like to jump in with a topic I have been
                          thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                          looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of the
                          Book of Pagan prayer) at
                          http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/, I noticed he had a
                          selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                          difficult concept to explain, so let me quote directly
                          from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                          "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                          forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from Europe
                          or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that it
                          is important that they be practiced as much like they
                          were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                          have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                          accomadation to modern sensibilities...
                          American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                          America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                          this mean?...
                          ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                          America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                          sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                          government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                          from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                          days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And in
                          part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                          uniquely American, then strongly American --
                          historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                          speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                          But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                          is, however, something that is shared by all
                          Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                          practice...
                          A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                          worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                          secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches, and
                          the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular meaning?
                          What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated with
                          America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                          to be seen as allegories, without acting like we were
                          the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                          fascinating and important questions; in their answers
                          may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                          would look like."
                          This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                          more. There are several interesting links on the
                          webpage, but information about actual practice is
                          sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type of
                          Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your worship?
                          And, perhaps the biggest question, what does American
                          Paganism mean to you?




                          --
                          Lady Mithriel* HPS
                          Coven of the Enchanted Star
                          www.cotessite.org
                          cotessite@...

                          LYL & L ..... be careful! ;) "md"*

                          ".......every minute of every day"

                          ~"It's not about the condition of the road, or which path we travel.....it's all about the journey."~

                        • Pearl McKinley
                          Hi again Luna I have to add my 2 cents here as well. When I was up north, I was living on a reserve and had the privilege of attending a Powow for the first
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 3, 2008
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                            Hi again Luna
                            I have to add my 2 cents here as well. When I was up north, I was living on a reserve and had the privilege of attending a Powow for the first time. I could definitely feel the energies flowing!  The elders sat me in the inner circle because I was in a wheel chair so I got the full doze of it.  It was like another world there.
                            At the end of the 3 day celebrations, one of the ladies with a beautiful voice sang out over the hill-tops, the song of farewell, safety and  good wishes to all who traveled.  I felt my whole body tingle with the eerie  beauty of it!
                            Brightest Blessings
                            ~ Pearl

                            Luna Skywalker <ladyterrathefirst@...> wrote:
                            I Love that--thanks for sharing this perspective! !!
                             
                            Now--in my opinion--if you wanted to study "true" American Paganism--it would have to start w/ the Native American Traditions and Practices...
                             
                            My Daughter and I went on a field trip to the Alabama Coushatta Reservation when she was in the first grade (my Daughter just graduated high school last Saturday)...
                             
                            I was transfixed by the unbelievably magnetic energy that was living there the whole entire time...I wanted to wander off into the Forest on my own--it was all I could do to stay w/ the group...The connection was perceived by the tour Guide and several other residents--They kept looking at me the entire time I was there and I think They were very curious--but never said anything...
                             
                            My point--there is a deep connection to MotherEarth living there...I believe that connection still exists to this day--because They have continued to honor Their Traditions, Rituals, and Practices... Spirit walks there right beside Them--I was nearly overcome by it...

                            Mithriel Salmon <cotessite@gmail. com> wrote:
                            OK, I am going to step out on a different limb here.  To me, American paganism is a term used by a single scholar to define a group of people in a way he can understand. The old religions do not need to be redefined. Integrating new things into old religions is common sense and happens in every aspect of all groups of people.
                             
                              For example: We have a sweat lodge at The Magick House (built for my Native American friends who appreciate that ritual).  An elder from a Nation in the Northwestern part of the USA saw the sweatlodge last year, in need of repair. We made it out of cedar branches here, on this property. I explained it was time to rebuild it and asked for some input. Her respone was, "Mithriel, Use pvc!  If it was around when the indians first started sweatlodges they would have used it too!"
                             
                               My point?  Changing materials, tools, locations over time doesn't change anything else. We aren't different because our culture is changing. We are only different in our resources.

                            On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Jessica Tucker <jealtu@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            I'd like to jump in with a topic I have been
                            thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                            looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of the
                            Book of Pagan prayer) at
                            http://www.ceisiwrs erith.com/ , I noticed he had a
                            selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                            difficult concept to explain, so let me quote directly
                            from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                            "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                            forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from Europe
                            or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that it
                            is important that they be practiced as much like they
                            were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                            have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                            accomadation to modern sensibilities. ..
                            American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                            America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                            this mean?...
                            ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                            America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                            sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                            government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                            from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                            days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And in
                            part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                            uniquely American, then strongly American --
                            historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                            speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                            But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                            is, however, something that is shared by all
                            Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                            practice...
                            A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                            worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                            secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches, and
                            the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular meaning?
                            What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated with
                            America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                            to be seen as allegories, without acting like we were
                            the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                            fascinating and important questions; in their answers
                            may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                            would look like."
                            This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                            more. There are several interesting links on the
                            webpage, but information about actual practice is
                            sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type of
                            Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your worship?
                            And, perhaps the biggest question, what does American
                            Paganism mean to you?




                            --
                            Lady Mithriel* HPS
                            Coven of the Enchanted Star
                            www.cotessite. org
                            cotessite@gmail. com

                            LYL & L ..... be careful! ;) "md"*

                            ".......every minute of every day"

                            ~"It's not about the condition of the road, or which path we travel.....it' s all about the journey."~



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                          • Jessica Tucker
                            Thank you to everyone who has commented on my topic so far - you ve given me a lot to think about! Let me see if I can look at this from another angle. Female
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 3, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Thank you to everyone who has commented on my topic
                              so far - you've given me a lot to think about!
                              Let me see if I can look at this from another angle.
                              Female (usually) represenations of Liberty and Freedom
                              are very common here in the United States, the Statue
                              of Liberty, the Freedom Statue on top of the US
                              Capitol, Lady Liberty on top of the Capitol in Austin,
                              TX, to name just a few. For the Romans, Liberty was a
                              goddess, but most people I have talked to seem to see
                              the American forms only in terms of metaphor and
                              allegory. Yet, not long ago when I was reading the
                              book Sacred Places of the Goddess, the author listed
                              the Statue of Liberty as one of Her holy places. What
                              do you think? Are all these paintings and statues
                              merely symbolic, or are they actually representations
                              of a form of the Goddess? And, if so, what is the
                              proper way to honor this incarnation of Her? Do we
                              look to the old Roman rituals for the Goddess Liberty
                              or is something completely new called for here? Any
                              thoughts?
                              --- Luna Skywalker <ladyterrathefirst@...>
                              wrote:

                              > I Love that--thanks for sharing this perspective!!!
                              >
                              > Now--in my opinion--if you wanted to study "true"
                              > American Paganism--it would have to start w/ the
                              > Native American Traditions and Practices...
                              >
                              > My Daughter and I went on a field trip to the
                              > Alabama Coushatta Reservation when she was in the
                              > first grade (my Daughter just graduated high school
                              > last Saturday)...
                              >
                              > I was transfixed by the unbelievably magnetic
                              > energy that was living there the whole entire
                              > time...I wanted to wander off into the Forest on my
                              > own--it was all I could do to stay w/ the
                              > group...The connection was perceived by the tour
                              > Guide and several other residents--They kept looking
                              > at me the entire time I was there and I think They
                              > were very curious--but never said anything...
                              >
                              > My point--there is a deep connection to
                              > MotherEarth living there...I believe that connection
                              > still exists to this day--because They have
                              > continued to honor Their Traditions, Rituals, and
                              > Practices...Spirit walks there right beside Them--I
                              > was nearly overcome by it...
                              >
                              > Mithriel Salmon <cotessite@...> wrote:
                              > OK, I am going to step out on a
                              > different limb here. To me, American paganism is a
                              > term used by a single scholar to define a group of
                              > people in a way he can understand. The old religions
                              > do not need to be redefined. Integrating new things
                              > into old religions is common sense and happens in
                              > every aspect of all groups of people.
                              >
                              > For example: We have a sweat lodge at The Magick
                              > House (built for my Native American friends who
                              > appreciate that ritual). An elder from a Nation in
                              > the Northwestern part of the USA saw the sweatlodge
                              > last year, in need of repair. We made it out of
                              > cedar branches here, on this property. I explained
                              > it was time to rebuild it and asked for some input.
                              > Her respone was, "Mithriel, Use pvc! If it was
                              > around when the indians first started sweatlodges
                              > they would have used it too!"
                              >
                              > My point? Changing materials, tools, locations
                              > over time doesn't change anything else. We aren't
                              > different because our culture is changing. We are
                              > only different in our resources.
                              >
                              >
                              > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Jessica Tucker
                              > <jealtu@...> wrote:
                              > I'd like to jump in with a topic I have
                              > been
                              > thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                              > looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of
                              > the
                              > Book of Pagan prayer) at
                              > http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/, I noticed he had a
                              > selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                              > difficult concept to explain, so let me quote
                              > directly
                              > from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                              > "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                              > forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from
                              > Europe
                              > or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that
                              > it
                              > is important that they be practiced as much like
                              > they
                              > were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                              > have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                              > accomadation to modern sensibilities...
                              > American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                              > America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                              > this mean?...
                              > ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                              > America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                              > sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                              > government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                              > from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                              > days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And
                              > in
                              > part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                              > uniquely American, then strongly American --
                              > historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                              > speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                              > But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                              > is, however, something that is shared by all
                              > Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                              > practice...
                              > A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                              > worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                              > secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches,
                              > and
                              > the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular
                              > meaning?
                              > What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated
                              > with
                              > America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                              > to be seen as allegories, without acting like we
                              > were
                              > the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                              > fascinating and important questions; in their
                              > answers
                              > may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                              > would look like."
                              > This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                              > more. There are several interesting links on the
                              > webpage, but information about actual practice is
                              > sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type
                              > of
                              > Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your
                              > worship?
                              > And, perhaps the biggest question, what does
                              > American
                              > Paganism mean to you?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --
                              > Lady Mithriel* HPS
                              > Coven of the Enchanted Star
                              > www.cotessite.org
                              > cotessite@...
                              >
                              > LYL & L ..... be careful! ;) "md"*
                              >
                              > ".......every minute of every day"
                              >
                              > ~"It's not about the condition of the road, or which
                              > path we travel.....it's all about the journey."~
                              >
                              >
                            • Frances Osborne
                              The Statue of Liberty is the embodiment of a goddess only if *you* (meaning the individual) think so. To me she is not the embodiment of an actual goddess. She
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jun 3, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The Statue of Liberty is the embodiment of a goddess only if *you* (meaning the individual) think so. To me she is not the embodiment of an actual goddess. She is a tangible symbol of an intangible human feeling.
                                 
                                In my opinion, the statue of liberty, parades, festivals etc do not make for a religion of any kind. It's what people do personally that makes a religion. As far as I know, no one "believes" in the Statue of Liberty (please correct me if I am wrong and someone here does). No one pays her homage, leaves offerings to her, have festivals in her name, have ecstatic trances in which they are possessed by her, prays to her, or has any other feeling toward the other than they are grateful for what the statue represents --- liberty itself.
                                 
                                I really don't think there is an American Paganism the way you describe it. Even the Romans had their public statues and their private worship.  The Romans worshipped at home, at the hearth. There, they made offerings to Hera for the well being of their family; they had their household gods -- their lares -- and also the spirits of their ancestors.  They did not necessarily worship Mars or Zeus or Juno but more than likely just saw them as human beings --- only with superhuman powers and immortality. Instead they usually offered up prayers and offerings to their lares. Public festivals might be offered up to Zeus.....but that may  have invoked a more "public" feeling of patriotism that a personal private worship of the heart.
                                 
                                Well, that's how I view it anyways. I am not an expert in this by any means. I just happen to think that public displays are quite different from private beliefs and feelings. I almost never think about the Statue of Liberty. I think about my local home spirits many times a day. I have never made an offering to the Statue of Liberty, I have never made an offering to any statue; but I have made many, many offerings of food and drink to the spirits that surround my house.
                                 
                                Here are some Wikipedia articles that I looked at while composing this post:
                                 
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_ancient_Rome
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lares
                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_festivals

                                blessings Frances

                                 



                                To: Ethical_Witches@yahoogroups.com
                                From: jealtu@...
                                Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:47:48 -0700
                                Subject: Re: [Ethical_Witches] American Paganism?

                                Thank you to everyone who has commented on my topic
                                so far - you've given me a lot to think about!
                                Let me see if I can look at this from another angle.
                                Female (usually) represenations of Liberty and Freedom
                                are very common here in the United States, the Statue
                                of Liberty, the Freedom Statue on top of the US
                                Capitol, Lady Liberty on top of the Capitol in Austin,
                                TX, to name just a few. For the Romans, Liberty was a
                                goddess, but most people I have talked to seem to see
                                the American forms only in terms of metaphor and
                                allegory. Yet, not long ago when I was reading the
                                book Sacred Places of the Goddess, the author listed
                                the Statue of Liberty as one of Her holy places. What
                                do you think? Are all these paintings and statues
                                merely symbolic, or are they actually representations
                                of a form of the Goddess? And, if so, what is the
                                proper way to honor this incarnation of Her? Do we
                                look to the old Roman rituals for the Goddess Liberty
                                or is something completely new called for here? Any
                                thoughts?
                                --- Luna Skywalker <ladyterrathefirst@ yahoo.com>
                                wrote:

                                > I Love that--thanks for sharing this perspective! !!
                                >
                                > Now--in my opinion--if you wanted to study "true"
                                > American Paganism--it would have to start w/ the
                                > Native American Traditions and Practices...
                                >
                                > My Daughter and I went on a field trip to the
                                > Alabama Coushatta Reservation when she was in the
                                > first grade (my Daughter just graduated high school
                                > last Saturday)...
                                >
                                > I was transfixed by the unbelievably magnetic
                                > energy that was living there the whole entire
                                > time...I wanted to wander off into the Forest on my
                                > own--it was all I could do to stay w/ the
                                > group...The connection was perceived by the tour
                                > Guide and several other residents--They kept looking
                                > at me the entire time I was there and I think They
                                > were very curious--but never said anything...
                                >
                                > My point--there is a deep connection to
                                > MotherEarth living there...I believe that connection
                                > still exists to this day--because They have
                                > continued to honor Their Traditions, Rituals, and
                                > Practices... Spirit walks there right beside Them--I
                                > was nearly overcome by it...
                                >
                                > Mithriel Salmon <cotessite@gmail. com> wrote:
                                > OK, I am going to step out on a
                                > different limb here. To me, American paganism is a
                                > term used by a single scholar to define a group of
                                > people in a way he can understand. The old religions
                                > do not need to be redefined. Integrating new things
                                > into old religions is common sense and happens in
                                > every aspect of all groups of people.
                                >
                                > For example: We have a sweat lodge at The Magick
                                > House (built for my Native American friends who
                                > appreciate that ritual). An elder from a Nation in
                                > the Northwestern part of the USA saw the sweatlodge
                                > last year, in need of repair. We made it out of
                                > cedar branches here, on this property. I explained
                                > it was time to rebuild it and asked for some input.
                                > Her respone was, "Mithriel, Use pvc! If it was
                                > around when the indians first started sweatlodges
                                > they would have used it too!"
                                >
                                > My point? Changing materials, tools, locations
                                > over time doesn't change anything else. We aren't
                                > different because our culture is changing. We are
                                > only different in our resources.
                                >
                                >
                                > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Jessica Tucker
                                > <jealtu@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                > I'd like to jump in with a topic I have
                                > been
                                > thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                                > looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of
                                > the
                                > Book of Pagan prayer) at
                                > http://www.ceisiwrs erith.com/ , I noticed he had a
                                > selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                                > difficult concept to explain, so let me quote
                                > directly
                                > from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                                > "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                                > forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from
                                > Europe
                                > or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that
                                > it
                                > is important that they be practiced as much like
                                > they
                                > were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                                > have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                                > accomadation to modern sensibilities. ..
                                > American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                                > America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                                > this mean?...
                                > ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                                > America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                                > sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                                > government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                                > from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                                > days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And
                                > in
                                > part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                                > uniquely American, then strongly American --
                                > historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                                > speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                                > But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                                > is, however, something that is shared by all
                                > Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                                > practice...
                                > A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                                > worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                                > secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches,
                                > and
                                > the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular
                                > meaning?
                                > What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated
                                > with
                                > America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                                > to be seen as allegories, without acting like we
                                > were
                                > the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                                > fascinating and important questions; in their
                                > answers
                                > may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                                > would look like."
                                > This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                                > more. There are several interesting links on the
                                > webpage, but information about actual practice is
                                > sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type
                                > of
                                > Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your
                                > worship?
                                > And, perhaps the biggest question, what does
                                > American
                                > Paganism mean to you?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --
                                > Lady Mithriel* HPS
                                > Coven of the Enchanted Star
                                > www.cotessite. org
                                > cotessite@gmail. com
                                >
                                > LYL & L ..... be careful! ;) "md"*
                                >
                                > ".......every minute of every day"
                                >
                                > ~"It's not about the condition of the road, or which
                                > path we travel.....it' s all about the journey."~
                                >
                                >




                                Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live™ Messenger. Invite friends now!
                              • Luna Skywalker
                                I have often wished that I could go back and camp in their campground--but I am financially challenged (not to mention my poor outdated car)... Our family has
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jun 3, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  I have often wished that I could go back and camp in their campground--but I am financially challenged (not to mention my poor outdated car)...
                                   
                                  Our family has been through a lot over the last (2) Wheels and are just starting to pull things together...
                                   
                                  Your experience sounds awesome--thank you for sharing--(perhaps) someday I will be able to return and spend some quality time in the place where MotherEarth is so very Loved and Cherished...
                                   
                                  Peace and Love on your path to the Eternal Circle...
                                   
                                  Blessed be...
                                   
                                  Your sister-in-spirit,
                                   
                                  LadyTerra

                                  Pearl McKinley <prrrlcat2@...> wrote:
                                  Hi again Luna
                                  I have to add my 2 cents here as well. When I was up north, I was living on a reserve and had the privilege of attending a Powow for the first time. I could definitely feel the energies flowing!  The elders sat me in the inner circle because I was in a wheel chair so I got the full doze of it.  It was like another world there.
                                  At the end of the 3 day celebrations, one of the ladies with a beautiful voice sang out over the hill-tops, the song of farewell, safety and  good wishes to all who traveled.  I felt my whole body tingle with the eerie  beauty of it!
                                  Brightest Blessings
                                  ~ Pearl

                                  Luna Skywalker <ladyterrathefirst@...> wrote:
                                  I Love that--thanks for sharing this perspective! !!
                                   
                                  Now--in my opinion--if you wanted to study "true" American Paganism--it would have to start w/ the Native American Traditions and Practices...
                                   
                                  My Daughter and I went on a field trip to the Alabama Coushatta Reservation when she was in the first grade (my Daughter just graduated high school last Saturday)...
                                   
                                  I was transfixed by the unbelievably magnetic energy that was living there the whole entire time...I wanted to wander off into the Forest on my own--it was all I could do to stay w/ the group...The connection was perceived by the tour Guide and several other residents--They kept looking at me the entire time I was there and I think They were very curious--but never said anything...
                                   
                                  My point--there is a deep connection to MotherEarth living there...I believe that connection still exists to this day--because They have continued to honor Their Traditions, Rituals, and Practices... Spirit walks there right beside Them--I was nearly overcome by it...

                                  Mithriel Salmon <cotessite@gmail. com> wrote:
                                  OK, I am going to step out on a different limb here.  To me, American paganism is a term used by a single scholar to define a group of people in a way he can understand. The old religions do not need to be redefined. Integrating new things into old religions is common sense and happens in every aspect of all groups of people.
                                   
                                    For example: We have a sweat lodge at The Magick House (built for my Native American friends who appreciate that ritual).  An elder from a Nation in the Northwestern part of the USA saw the sweatlodge last year, in need of repair. We made it out of cedar branches here, on this property. I explained it was time to rebuild it and asked for some input. Her respone was, "Mithriel, Use pvc!  If it was around when the indians first started sweatlodges they would have used it too!"
                                   
                                     My point?  Changing materials, tools, locations over time doesn't change anything else. We aren't different because our culture is changing. We are only different in our resources.

                                  On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Jessica Tucker <jealtu@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                  I'd like to jump in with a topic I have been
                                  thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                                  looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of the
                                  Book of Pagan prayer) at
                                  http://www.ceisiwrs erith.com/ , I noticed he had a
                                  selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                                  difficult concept to explain, so let me quote directly
                                  from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                                  "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                                  forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from Europe
                                  or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that it
                                  is important that they be practiced as much like they
                                  were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                                  have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                                  accomadation to modern sensibilities. ..
                                  American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                                  America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                                  this mean?...
                                  ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                                  America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                                  sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                                  government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                                  from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                                  days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And in
                                  part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                                  uniquely American, then strongly American --
                                  historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                                  speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                                  But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                                  is, however, something that is shared by all
                                  Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                                  practice...
                                  A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                                  worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                                  secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches, and
                                  the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular meaning?
                                  What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated with
                                  America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                                  to be seen as allegories, without acting like we were
                                  the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                                  fascinating and important questions; in their answers
                                  may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                                  would look like."
                                  This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                                  more. There are several interesting links on the
                                  webpage, but information about actual practice is
                                  sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type of
                                  Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your worship?
                                  And, perhaps the biggest question, what does American
                                  Paganism mean to you?




                                  --
                                  Lady Mithriel* HPS
                                  Coven of the Enchanted Star
                                  www.cotessite. org
                                  cotessite@gmail. com

                                  LYL & L ..... be careful! ;) "md"*

                                  ".......every minute of every day"

                                  ~"It's not about the condition of the road, or which path we travel.....it' s all about the journey."~



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                                • Luna Skywalker
                                  Hey Jessica: I think it is a wise person who can recognize the Goddess when she sees Her... Let s take LadyJustice (for instance)--She is actually a perverted
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 3, 2008
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                                    Hey Jessica:
                                     
                                    I think it is a wise person who can recognize the Goddess when she sees Her...
                                     
                                    Let's take LadyJustice (for instance)--She is actually a perverted form of the Goddess Themis (who was never blindfolded--never mind the patriarchal rationalization of justice being blind)...
                                     
                                    She is the Goddess Themis--all seeing, all knowing--nothing escapes Her attention in the past, present, or future...

                                    Jessica Tucker <jealtu@...> wrote:
                                    Thank you to everyone who has commented on my topic
                                    so far - you've given me a lot to think about!
                                    Let me see if I can look at this from another angle.
                                    Female (usually) represenations of Liberty and Freedom
                                    are very common here in the United States, the Statue
                                    of Liberty, the Freedom Statue on top of the US
                                    Capitol, Lady Liberty on top of the Capitol in Austin,
                                    TX, to name just a few. For the Romans, Liberty was a
                                    goddess, but most people I have talked to seem to see
                                    the American forms only in terms of metaphor and
                                    allegory. Yet, not long ago when I was reading the
                                    book Sacred Places of the Goddess, the author listed
                                    the Statue of Liberty as one of Her holy places. What
                                    do you think? Are all these paintings and statues
                                    merely symbolic, or are they actually representations
                                    of a form of the Goddess? And, if so, what is the
                                    proper way to honor this incarnation of Her? Do we
                                    look to the old Roman rituals for the Goddess Liberty
                                    or is something completely new called for here? Any
                                    thoughts?
                                    --- Luna Skywalker
                                    wrote:

                                    > I Love that--thanks for sharing this perspective!!!
                                    >
                                    > Now--in my opinion--if you wanted to study "true"
                                    > American Paganism--it would have to start w/ the
                                    > Native American Traditions and Practices...
                                    >
                                    > My Daughter and I went on a field trip to the
                                    > Alabama Coushatta Reservation when she was in the
                                    > first grade (my Daughter just graduated high school
                                    > last Saturday)...
                                    >
                                    > I was transfixed by the unbelievably magnetic
                                    > energy that was living there the whole entire
                                    > time...I wanted to wander off into the Forest on my
                                    > own--it was all I could do to stay w/ the
                                    > group...The connection was perceived by the tour
                                    > Guide and several other residents--They kept looking
                                    > at me the entire time I was there and I think They
                                    > were very curious--but never said anything...
                                    >
                                    > My point--there is a deep connection to
                                    > MotherEarth living there...I believe that connection
                                    > still exists to this day--because They have
                                    > continued to honor Their Traditions, Rituals, and
                                    > Practices...Spirit walks there right beside Them--I
                                    > was nearly overcome by it...
                                    >
                                    > Mithriel Salmon wrote:
                                    > OK, I am going to step out on a
                                    > different limb here. To me, American paganism is a
                                    > term used by a single scholar to define a group of
                                    > people in a way he can understand. The old religions
                                    > do not need to be redefined. Integrating new things
                                    > into old religions is common sense and happens in
                                    > every aspect of all groups of people.
                                    >
                                    > For example: We have a sweat lodge at The Magick
                                    > House (built for my Native American friends who
                                    > appreciate that ritual). An elder from a Nation in
                                    > the Northwestern part of the USA saw the sweatlodge
                                    > last year, in need of repair. We made it out of
                                    > cedar branches here, on this property. I explained
                                    > it was time to rebuild it and asked for some input.
                                    > Her respone was, "Mithriel, Use pvc! If it was
                                    > around when the indians first started sweatlodges
                                    > they would have used it too!"
                                    >
                                    > My point? Changing materials, tools, locations
                                    > over time doesn't change anything else. We aren't
                                    > different because our culture is changing. We are
                                    > only different in our resources.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Jessica Tucker
                                    > wrote:
                                    > I'd like to jump in with a topic I have
                                    > been
                                    > thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                                    > looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of
                                    > the
                                    > Book of Pagan prayer) at
                                    > http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/, I noticed he had a
                                    > selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                                    > difficult concept to explain, so let me quote
                                    > directly
                                    > from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                                    > "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                                    > forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from
                                    > Europe
                                    > or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that
                                    > it
                                    > is important that they be practiced as much like
                                    > they
                                    > were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                                    > have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                                    > accomadation to modern sensibilities...
                                    > American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                                    > America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                                    > this mean?...
                                    > ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                                    > America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                                    > sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                                    > government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                                    > from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                                    > days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And
                                    > in
                                    > part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                                    > uniquely American, then strongly American --
                                    > historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                                    > speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                                    > But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                                    > is, however, something that is shared by all
                                    > Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                                    > practice...
                                    > A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                                    > worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                                    > secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches,
                                    > and
                                    > the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular
                                    > meaning?
                                    > What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated
                                    > with
                                    > America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                                    > to be seen as allegories, without acting like we
                                    > were
                                    > the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                                    > fascinating and important questions; in their
                                    > answers
                                    > may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                                    > would look like."
                                    > This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                                    > more. There are several interesting links on the
                                    > webpage, but information about actual practice is
                                    > sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type
                                    > of
                                    > Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your
                                    > worship?
                                    > And, perhaps the biggest question, what does
                                    > American
                                    > Paganism mean to you?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Lady Mithriel* HPS
                                    > Coven of the Enchanted Star
                                    > www.cotessite.org
                                    > cotessite@...
                                    >
                                    > LYL & L ..... be careful! ;) "md"*
                                    >
                                    > ".......every minute of every day"
                                    >
                                    > ~"It's not about the condition of the road, or which
                                    > path we travel.....it's all about the journey."~
                                    >
                                    >





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                                  • Judy
                                    Pow Wow practiced by Penn. Duetch. It has it origins with the continental Germans, but has evolved since then in many ways. Oh, I would refer to what I do as
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 3, 2008
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                                      Pow Wow practiced by Penn. Duetch. It has it origins with the
                                      continental Germans, but has evolved since then in many ways.

                                      Oh, I would refer to what I do as evolving reconstruction. Looking to
                                      the past and the practices of my ancestors for the core of things while
                                      remembering I live in the here and now in America. There are many
                                      Heathens that will tell you that they don't do or do certain things
                                      because they're Vinlandish(American). I just say, hey I'm Texan and
                                      don't have 6 months of snow and ice. I just want 1 week of it to help
                                      with the growing season! Practices have to adapt to where you are
                                      geographically. Needs are different.

                                      --- In Ethical_Witches@yahoogroups.com, Frances Osborne <osborne35@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > American paganism...
                                      > Here are some ideas....
                                      > appalachian folk magic
                                      > ozark magic
                                      > granny magic
                                      > root doctor
                                      >
                                      > these seem pretty "american" to me even if some of the practices were
                                      brought over by the irish
                                      > _________________________________________________________________
                                      > Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
                                      > http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?
                                      ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008
                                      >
                                    • Judy
                                      Well said! Thank you. Judy ... American ... people in a ... redefined. ... happens in ... my ... a Nation ... in need of ... explained ... doesn t change ...
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 3, 2008
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                                        Well said! Thank you.

                                        Judy

                                        --- In Ethical_Witches@yahoogroups.com, "Mithriel Salmon"
                                        <cotessite@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > OK, I am going to step out on a different limb here. To me,
                                        American
                                        > paganism is a term used by a single scholar to define a group of
                                        people in a
                                        > way he can understand. The old religions do not need to be
                                        redefined.
                                        > Integrating new things into old religions is common sense and
                                        happens in
                                        > every aspect of all groups of people.
                                        >
                                        > For example: We have a sweat lodge at The Magick House (built for
                                        my
                                        > Native American friends who appreciate that ritual). An elder from
                                        a Nation
                                        > in the Northwestern part of the USA saw the sweatlodge last year,
                                        in need of
                                        > repair. We made it out of cedar branches here, on this property. I
                                        explained
                                        > it was time to rebuild it and asked for some input. Her respone was,
                                        > "Mithriel, Use pvc! If it was around when the indians first started
                                        > sweatlodges they would have used it too!"
                                        >
                                        > My point? Changing materials, tools, locations over time
                                        doesn't change
                                        > anything else. We aren't different because our culture is changing.
                                        We are
                                        > only different in our resources.
                                        >
                                        > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:53 PM, Jessica Tucker <jealtu@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > I'd like to jump in with a topic I have been
                                        > > thinking about a lot lately. Recently, when I was
                                        > > looking over Ceisiwr Serith's homepage (authour of the
                                        > > Book of Pagan prayer) at
                                        > > http://www.ceisiwrserith.com/, I noticed he had a
                                        > > selection of links on American Paganism. It's a
                                        > > difficult concept to explain, so let me quote directly
                                        > > from the website (cut down a little due to length):
                                        > > "Modern Pagans in America have tended to practice
                                        > > forms of pre-Christian religions, whether from Europe
                                        > > or elsewhere. The Reconstructionists have said that it
                                        > > is important that they be practiced as much like they
                                        > > were in ancient times as is possible, while others
                                        > > have insisted on a much larger percentage of
                                        > > accomadation to modern sensibilities...
                                        > > American Pagans aren't just Pagans who are living in
                                        > > America; they are Pagans who are American. What does
                                        > > this mean?...
                                        > > ...there is already a "secular religion" in place in
                                        > > America. In large part it is drawn from classical
                                        > > sources -- the goddess Liberty, the fasces on
                                        > > government buildings, and so on. In part it is drawn
                                        > > from universal sources -- celebrations of particular
                                        > > days with parades, bonfires, parties, and such. And in
                                        > > part it is formed from elements that are, if not
                                        > > uniquely American, then strongly American --
                                        > > historical documents as possessing spiritual value,
                                        > > speeches, elections as ritual, etc...
                                        > > But it isn't Pagan, at least not on the surface. It
                                        > > is, however, something that is shared by all
                                        > > Americans, no matter what other religions they may
                                        > > practice...
                                        > > A number of us are asking, however, what if we did
                                        > > worship these deities? What if we took part in the
                                        > > secular rituals -- the parades, and the speeches, and
                                        > > the parties -- but saw in them a non-secular meaning?
                                        > > What if we saw the gods and goddesses associated with
                                        > > America as actual deities, but without allowing them
                                        > > to be seen as allegories, without acting like we were
                                        > > the ones who knew their real meaning? These are
                                        > > fascinating and important questions; in their answers
                                        > > may lie the key to what a truly American Paganism
                                        > > would look like."
                                        > > This is a very new idea to me, and I'd like to learn
                                        > > more. There are several interesting links on the
                                        > > webpage, but information about actual practice is
                                        > > sparse. Does anyone on this list practice this type of
                                        > > Paganism? How do you incorporate it into your worship?
                                        > > And, perhaps the biggest question, what does American
                                        > > Paganism mean to you?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --
                                        > Lady Mithriel* HPS
                                        > Coven of the Enchanted Star
                                        > www.cotessite.org
                                        > cotessite@...
                                        >
                                        > LYL & L ..... be careful! ;) "md"*
                                        >
                                        > ".......every minute of every day"
                                        >
                                        > ~"It's not about the condition of the road, or which path we
                                        travel.....it's
                                        > all about the journey."~
                                        >
                                      • Luna Skywalker
                                        We are in total agreement here... Further more--we have to adapt (and adopt what works for us in Body, Mind, and Spirit)... I am the sum of (All) my
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jun 4, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          We are in total agreement here...
                                           
                                          Further more--we have to adapt (and adopt what works for us in Body, Mind, and Spirit)...
                                          I am the sum of (All) my experiences plus my heritage--a culmination (if you will)...

                                          Should I ignore any of who I am--or call upon (All) my Gifts and put them to proper use???
                                           
                                          Humans are Traditionalists by nature (because we are basically creatures of habit--in my opinion)--but we do not have to be Purists, unless we want to be...
                                           
                                          I personally--will use all that I have learned in the most productive way I can in order to serve wherever I might...
                                           
                                          Peace and Love on Your search for Enlightenment...
                                           
                                          Blessed be...
                                          Judy <dreamspiritwind@...> wrote:
                                          Pow Wow practiced by Penn. Duetch. It has it origins with the
                                          continental Germans, but has evolved since then in many ways.

                                          Oh, I would refer to what I do as evolving reconstruction. Looking to
                                          the past and the practices of my ancestors for the core of things while
                                          remembering I live in the here and now in America. There are many
                                          Heathens that will tell you that they don't do or do certain things
                                          because they're Vinlandish(American). I just say, hey I'm Texan and
                                          don't have 6 months of snow and ice. I just want 1 week of it to help
                                          with the growing season! Practices have to adapt to where you are
                                          geographically. Needs are different.

                                          --- In Ethical_Witches@yahoogroups.com, Frances Osborne
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > American paganism...
                                          > Here are some ideas....
                                          > appalachian folk magic
                                          > ozark magic
                                          > granny magic
                                          > root doctor
                                          >
                                          > these seem pretty "american" to me even if some of the practices were
                                          brought over by the irish
                                          > _________________________________________________________________
                                          > Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety.
                                          > http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?
                                          ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008
                                          >



                                          ------------------------------------

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