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Re: Christian Friends

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  • kenhaining777
    [Remember God s ways are not mans ways! If you base your experience of getting to know Christ using people as a baseline for His presence and power, and Love
    Message 1 of 25 , May 1, 2007

      [Remember God's ways are not mans ways! If you base your experience of
      getting to know Christ using people as a baseline for His presence and
      power, and Love you surely will not experience all He has to offer.]

       

      However, Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.  Applying that to Jesus himself, and taking what the Bible says about those who get "saved" being a "new creation," it is a valid evaluation of the Christian faith to look at what it has produced in history and the present. 

      Theoretically, if someone has this "born again" experience, then it will cause them to become a more advanced person.  On average, Christians should be kinder, wiser, more honest, more patient, more forgiving, more self controlled, and other such like things, than non believers.  I, on the other hand, have found that on average those who profess Jesus as their Savior tend to be less of those things than many unbelievers. 

      My conclusion is that people are free will agents and decide, to a large degree, whether or not to choose the higher side of human nature, or the lower side, and that this has very little to do with what religion they profess.  And yes, Christianity, by definition of the English language, is a religion.  Saying it is not a religion doesn't change that fact. 

      As I have said before, give me a kind and fair athiest over a mean and unfair Christian.  I prefer an honest Catholic to a born again liar.  I prefer a peaceful Buddhist to a "saved" person who sows strife.  I prefer a humble agnostic to a proud, arrogant "child of God." 

      I don't expect people to be anywhere near perfect, Christian or not.  But when I look at the results of various beliefs and philosophies, I have to wonder about the ones that produce people who embrace the lower nature of man, yet who claim they are "right with God."  The fellowship of Wayman O. is filled with mean, nasty, self righteous people, and that religion actually reinforces those traits in people.  They are absolutely vindictive, but they are "saved," right? 

      At the end of the day, I don't really care what religion someone is, but rather what kind of person they are.  I feel I have made far, far more progress as a human being since I no longer believe in hardened religion than I ever did when I believed it.  To me, the bottom line is what works for you in terms of helping you advance as a person.  If Christianity works for you, then fine.  However, some of us have found that other things work better.  To each his own.

      Shalom

       

       

    • zarathustra8_28
      ... If this is aimed at me, I can say that I understand what you are saying here, however, in all honesty, Christianity was the loneliest, most painful period
      Message 2 of 25 , May 2, 2007


        --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "sarkasservices" <lsarkas@...> wrote:
        >
        > Remember God's ways are not mans ways! If you base your experience of
        > getting to know Christ using people as a baseline for His presence and
        > power, and Love you surely will not experience all He has to offer.
        > Understanding The Omnipitence of Christ comes through prayer and self
        > study, which will bring understanding through divine intervention.
        > people are people, we are born sinners, and need to realize that we
        > get involved with sin, sometimes unknowingly, but there is repentence
        > and forgiveness from Christ, not from people. People love to hang on
        > and have a field day with others issues when thier issues are equal or
        > greater that they just ignore( The log in thier eye). GOD is not
        > crazed He knows exactly what he is doing, we are the ones with twisted
        > theories. Pursue his word, and let him show you his love, as for
        > people, well it's a ME, ME, ME, ME world out there! When it needs to
        > be HIM, HIM, HIM! hopefully i am making sense.
        >

        If this is aimed at me, I can say that I understand what you are saying here, however, in all honesty, Christianity was the loneliest, most painful period of my life. I came into Christianity with problems, due to several abusive people I encountered in childhood. At the time I joined the 'church' I had a family, friends, and was generally happy with my place in the world, and my understanding of who I was. When, seven and a half years later I left Christianity, I had no friends, my family had been taken away, my self identity was lost, and I had learned through the consistent pain of experience, that God simply could not be trusted. He didn't heal or restore me, physically or emotionally, he didn't help me, he didn't put me in a family but took it way (or allowed it to be taken away) - he didn't restore 100 fold the family (child) that I lost, no matter how much I prayed, then begged just to be allowed to experience a little bit of peace and see some truth in my life of what the Bible says regarding the way he treats his people. I seemed to experience unrelenting hate from so-called Christians, and "even what I had was taken away"... and all I was doing was desperately trying to just be whatever a normal Christian was. Did I sin? Yes. But I was told that everyone does, and that God doesn't punish us forever, but, after eight and a half years of loneliness, I could not go on anymore. I knew when I spoke to people and said that God is loving, and that he heals people, I was lying. I got to the point of believing that people that I know that are hurting and wounded would be better off never going into a church. Better to go to hell when you die than start your life in hell early by going into a so-called Christian church.

        I know that God doesn't do everything we want, however, if God's plan for my life involves me spending my life alone with no friends and taking away my family he can get stuffed. I am human and need friends - this seems like a basic human need, and God says he meets the needs of his people - well, frankly, that is utter crap, he didn't do it for me. I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u have to say God could heal me/give me a family/friends, if he wanted to - that these things didn't happen suggest that He had no interest in doing these things for me. No-one who was not Christian, would have looked at my life and said, "hey, that looks good. I'd like to join you in Christianity so that I can lose everyone I care about, and live a life of lonely tormented misery." Becoming Christian was the worst thing I ever did.


      • kenhaining777
        [If this is aimed at me, I can say that I understand what you are saying here, however, in all honesty, Christianity was the loneliest, most painful period of
        Message 3 of 25 , May 2, 2007

          [If this is aimed at me, I can say that I understand what you are saying here, however, in all honesty, Christianity was the loneliest, most painful period of my life. I came into Christianity with problems, due to several abusive people I encountered in childhood. At the time I joined the 'church' I had a family, friends, and was generally happy with my place in the world, and my understanding of who I was. When, seven and a half years later I left Christianity, I had no friends, my family had been taken away, my self identity was lost, and I had learned through the consistent pain of experience, that God simply could not be trusted. He didn't heal or restore me, physically or emotionally, he didn't help me, he didn't put me in a family but took it way (or allowed it to be taken away) - he didn't restore 100 fold the family (child) that I lost, no matter how much I prayed, then begged just to be allowed to experience a little bit of peace and see some truth in my life of what the Bible says regarding the way he treats his people. I seemed to experience unrelenting hate from so-called Christians, and "even what I had was taken away"...]

           

          Thanks for your honesty.

          There are many different reactions to accounts like this, and some subject people who have thus suffered, and who have concluded certain things about the Christian faith, to severe accusations.  Many subject anyone who "rejects the faith" to cruel analysis.  They will accuse people of hating God, being offended because of trials, betraying Jesus, and a bunch of other stuff to put a negative spin on the person's character.  In short, they become vindictive towards anyone who would dare to reject what they consider to be absolute truth, but is actually their own beliefs.

          However, some Christians would view such a person as having thoroughly been ripped off by a counterfeit.  The religious con game of Wayman O. and the boys gives people a wrong image of God, destroys real faith, and in the end leaves people thus ultimately disappointed.  They would say that because of the corrupt teachings of Waymanland the person does not even know how to relate to the real God of the Bible, and Jesus, the Savior.  They would pray for that person to be able to over come the deceptions and make contact with the real God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  They would not harshly judge the person who is thus disillusioned, but would rather hope that they could have a true relationship with the Living God.

          I imagine many who claim Christianity would fall into one of these two types.

          Shalom

           

             

        • sarkasservices
          ... experience of ... presence and ... offer. ... self ... intervention. ... we ... repentence ... hang on ... equal or ... twisted ... needs to ... saying ...
          Message 4 of 25 , May 2, 2007
            --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "zarathustra8_28"
            <bob-the-fisherman@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "sarkasservices"
            > <lsarkas@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Remember God's ways are not mans ways! If you base your
            experience of
            > > getting to know Christ using people as a baseline for His
            presence and
            > > power, and Love you surely will not experience all He has to
            offer.
            > > Understanding The Omnipitence of Christ comes through prayer and
            self
            > > study, which will bring understanding through divine
            intervention.
            > > people are people, we are born sinners, and need to realize that
            we
            > > get involved with sin, sometimes unknowingly, but there is
            repentence
            > > and forgiveness from Christ, not from people. People love to
            hang on
            > > and have a field day with others issues when thier issues are
            equal or
            > > greater that they just ignore( The log in thier eye). GOD is not
            > > crazed He knows exactly what he is doing, we are the ones with
            twisted
            > > theories. Pursue his word, and let him show you his love, as for
            > > people, well it's a ME, ME, ME, ME world out there! When it
            needs to
            > > be HIM, HIM, HIM! hopefully i am making sense.
            > >
            >
            > If this is aimed at me, I can say that I understand what you are
            saying
            > here, however, in all honesty, Christianity was the loneliest, most
            > painful period of my life. I came into Christianity with problems,
            due
            > to several abusive people I encountered in childhood. At the time I
            > joined the 'church' I had a family, friends, and was generally
            happy
            > with my place in the world, and my understanding of who I was.
            When,
            > seven and a half years later I left Christianity, I had no
            friends, my
            > family had been taken away, my self identity was lost, and I had
            learned
            > through the consistent pain of experience, that God simply could
            not be
            > trusted. He didn't heal or restore me, physically or emotionally,
            he
            > didn't help me, he didn't put me in a family but took it way (or
            allowed
            > it to be taken away) - he didn't restore 100 fold the family
            (child)
            > that I lost, no matter how much I prayed, then begged just to be
            allowed
            > to experience a little bit of peace and see some truth in my life
            of
            > what the Bible says regarding the way he treats his people. I
            seemed to
            > experience unrelenting hate from so-called Christians, and "even
            what I
            > had was taken away"... and all I was doing was desperately trying
            to
            > just be whatever a normal Christian was. Did I sin? Yes. But I was
            told
            > that everyone does, and that God doesn't punish us forever, but,
            after
            > eight and a half years of loneliness, I could not go on anymore. I
            knew
            > when I spoke to people and said that God is loving, and that he
            heals
            > people, I was lying. I got to the point of believing that people
            that I
            > know that are hurting and wounded would be better off never going
            into a
            > church. Better to go to hell when you die than start your life in
            hell
            > early by going into a so-called Christian church.
            >
            > I know that God doesn't do everything we want, however, if God's
            plan
            > for my life involves me spending my life alone with no friends and
            > taking away my family he can get stuffed. I am human and need
            friends -
            > this seems like a basic human need, and God says he meets the
            needs of
            > his people - well, frankly, that is utter crap, he didn't do it
            for me.
            > I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was
            > consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u
            have to
            > say God could heal me/give me a family/friends, if he wanted to -
            that
            > these things didn't happen suggest that He had no interest in doing
            > these things for me. No-one who was not Christian, would have
            looked at
            > my life and said, "hey, that looks good. I'd like to join you in
            > Christianity so that I can lose everyone I care about, and live a
            life
            > of lonely tormented misery." Becoming Christian was the worst
            thing I
            > ever did.
            >
            you have been ripped off of what real christianity is all about, a
            typical result of being in CFM and not one of the chossen ones.
            there is an abundant fullfilling life in JESUS. trust me, as i have
            experienced much of what you have, You must still have a bible, when
            you read it you will see that what has been done to you does not
            jive with christianity! by the way your family can still be a
            family even if they are not christians, and you can have friends
            also that are not christians, you will not go to hell! and another
            thing, i have experienced the same clickish people mentality since
            1985 in many churches from east to west coast. again people are
            people! they do what people do. that is why i pray for christ to
            take the me out of me every day, because i am not perfect, but he is!
            be good, and try not to cast Christ aside because of people. He
            didnt make you feel the way you feel, man did!
          • nancyinsanantone
            Your post tore at my heart so much, because I can soooo relate to where you are coming from. I too had been so miserable that I quit telling people about
            Message 5 of 25 , May 2, 2007

              Your post tore at my heart so much, because I can soooo relate to where you are coming from.  I too had been so miserable that I quit telling people about Jesus, why would I tell them, so they could be miserable like I was.  I often wonder how things would've been if I had never entered the doors of a CFM church.  It is THEM and THEIR ways that screwed us up, not God.  I truly believe we were fed a very FALSE perspective of God in that organization, and I am sure it truly grieves the heart of a God who is LOVE. 

               I don't post here much anymore, because I really don't have much to say about CFM anymore, what happened to me there seems like a bad LSD trip, that flashes back on me ever now and again.... but the one thing that nightmare caused me to do was to seek God on my own, purging all the crap from CFM out of my system.  I remain a believer in Jesus Christ, but the word "christian" for the most part just makes me think: closeminded, bigoted, arrogant, elite, legalist, hypocrite...etc.etc, any thing and everything that Jesus Christ is NOT.  

               I retain my trust in Jesus Christ, and claim Him to be what I believe He is. The savior of the world, to be testified in due time.  There is so much GOOD NEWS in the bible. God has plans to reconcile all, and to be all and in all.  I see all the bad stuff happening in the world, happening to me at times, and to people that I care about, and I know by faith that one day all will be right.  As for now, life is a journey, so expect a trip, and one that may not be so smooth at times, but will eventually all will come out in the wash.   I pray that the God of peace would touch your heart, and that one day soon that the realization that God is LOVE, and that LOVE NEVER FAILS will hit you like a two by four right between the eyes!  

              And to all of the people who have recently escaped the confines of CFM.  IT is HARD to re-adjust.  Mind games abound. But you can, and you WILL make it.  Don't regret your decision.  And walk in the grace that was FREELY given to you, and paid for entirely by Jesus Christ.

              Shalom & Stuff,

              Nancy

              www.tentmaker.org

              --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "zarathustra8_28" <bob-the-fisherman@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "sarkasservices"
              > lsarkas@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Remember God's ways are not mans ways! If you base your experience of
              > > getting to know Christ using people as a baseline for His presence and
              > > power, and Love you surely will not experience all He has to offer.
              > > Understanding The Omnipitence of Christ comes through prayer and self
              > > study, which will bring understanding through divine intervention.
              > > people are people, we are born sinners, and need to realize that we
              > > get involved with sin, sometimes unknowingly, but there is repentence
              > > and forgiveness from Christ, not from people. People love to hang on
              > > and have a field day with others issues when thier issues are equal or
              > > greater that they just ignore( The log in thier eye). GOD is not
              > > crazed He knows exactly what he is doing, we are the ones with twisted
              > > theories. Pursue his word, and let him show you his love, as for
              > > people, well it's a ME, ME, ME, ME world out there! When it needs to
              > > be HIM, HIM, HIM! hopefully i am making sense.
              > >
              >
              > If this is aimed at me, I can say that I understand what you are saying
              > here, however, in all honesty, Christianity was the loneliest, most
              > painful period of my life. I came into Christianity with problems, due
              > to several abusive people I encountered in childhood. At the time I
              > joined the 'church' I had a family, friends, and was generally happy
              > with my place in the world, and my understanding of who I was. When,
              > seven and a half years later I left Christianity, I had no friends, my
              > family had been taken away, my self identity was lost, and I had learned
              > through the consistent pain of experience, that God simply could not be
              > trusted. He didn't heal or restore me, physically or emotionally, he
              > didn't help me, he didn't put me in a family but took it way (or allowed
              > it to be taken away) - he didn't restore 100 fold the family (child)
              > that I lost, no matter how much I prayed, then begged just to be allowed
              > to experience a little bit of peace and see some truth in my life of
              > what the Bible says regarding the way he treats his people. I seemed to
              > experience unrelenting hate from so-called Christians, and "even what I
              > had was taken away"... and all I was doing was desperately trying to
              > just be whatever a normal Christian was. Did I sin? Yes. But I was told
              > that everyone does, and that God doesn't punish us forever, but, after
              > eight and a half years of loneliness, I could not go on anymore. I knew
              > when I spoke to people and said that God is loving, and that he heals
              > people, I was lying. I got to the point of believing that people that I
              > know that are hurting and wounded would be better off never going into a
              > church. Better to go to hell when you die than start your life in hell
              > early by going into a so-called Christian church.
              >
              > I know that God doesn't do everything we want, however, if God's plan
              > for my life involves me spending my life alone with no friends and
              > taking away my family he can get stuffed. I am human and need friends -
              > this seems like a basic human need, and God says he meets the needs of
              > his people - well, frankly, that is utter crap, he didn't do it for me.
              > I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was
              > consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u have to
              > say God could heal me/give me a family/friends, if he wanted to - that
              > these things didn't happen suggest that He had no interest in doing
              > these things for me. No-one who was not Christian, would have looked at
              > my life and said, "hey, that looks good. I'd like to join you in
              > Christianity so that I can lose everyone I care about, and live a life
              > of lonely tormented misery." Becoming Christian was the worst thing I
              > ever did.
              >

            • Thomas Marikle
              sarkasservices wrote: [you have been ripped off of what real christianity is all about, a typical result of being in CFM and not one of the chossen ones. there
              Message 6 of 25 , May 2, 2007

                sarkasservices wrote:
                [you have been ripped off of what real christianity is all about, a
                typical result of being in CFM and not one of the chossen ones.
                there is an abundant fullfilling life in JESUS. trust me, as i have
                experienced much of what you have, You must still have a bible, when
                you read it you will see that what has been done to you does not
                jive with christianity! by the way your family can still be a
                family even if they are not christians, and you can have friends
                also that are not christians, you will not go to hell! and another
                thing, i have experienced the same clickish people mentality since
                1985 in many churches from east to west coast. again people are
                people! they do what people do. that is why i pray for christ to
                take the me out of me every day, because i am not perfect, but he is!
                be good, and try not to cast Christ aside because of people. He
                didnt make you feel the way you feel, man did!]


                Absolutely!  It's not about us but it is about it is about a Holy and Righteous God who is sovereign in all things.  CFM, Door, Potters House, Victory Chapel all exhibit the same works based salvation that are prevalent in all cults and world religions.  Oh we may have heard that we were saved by faith alone through Christ alone by God's grace alone and not by works of righteousness in these churches but that is not what they teach and expect.

                One characteristic that I recall vividly in Victory Chapel (as well as in myself) was the self righteous egos of many of those "sent out" and especially of those who were acknowledged leaders in the movement.  It didn't really stop there though; many exhibited superior attitudes when they were given the privilege to be an usher, parking lot guard, bible study leader, etc.  The idea that once we felt like we were legitimately "doing" something for God, we somehow felt better about ourselves and that we were even more pleasing to God than prior to our act of "ministry."  The fact is that much of this wasn't service to God out of gratitude for God's merciful grace through the atoning work of Jesus Christ; it was rather self serving.  For any who don't believe that these groups aren't man centered rather than God centered, try telling the pastor he's wrong about any number of outright false teachings prevalent in these churches.  Try telling someone who is being primed for a church plant, a bible study leader, or the pastors that you really see in the bible that true Christians can't lose their salvation or that you never found any spirits of covetousness or a twisting spirit even mentioned in God's word or you don't believe that true Christians can be demon possessed.  Then tell them that you're going to find a church that does teach what can *actually* be found in the bible and see how many members "reach out" to you and try to reason with you and try to offer biblical correction.  No, what you will see is a unified shunning and character assassination. 

                On the other hand, find a true, biblical church where Christians hold a high view of God and a low view of themselves, where God's word is carefully studied and articulated, where members are taught how to rightly interpret the bible for themselves, and you'll generally see a altogether different church; I've seen them.  People can and do disappoint.  Both wheat and tares do in fact grow together and sometimes false believers can coexists with true believers (take Judas for instance).

                Christianity can't be summarily dismissed because of a poor sampling of those professing to be Christians, which the bible calls wolves, who don't even believe the bible to be God's word or who have their own selfish agendas.  Since Jesus warned his followers to, "beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves" (Matt 7:15), then we shouldn't be surprised when we find them in our midst.  The bible makes particular claims on its own veracity and, unless they can be demonstrated to be false, then we're faced with acting upon its claims.  Jesus did exist, lived in Israel, was crucified, and rose bodily from the dead just as is communicated in the bible.  Scripture testifies to this truth; we have the testimony of the New Testament authors such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, etc.  Peter wrote:

                "For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty." (2 Peter 1:16).

                There were eyewitnesses, including, of all people, Paul himself.

                At any rate, while we're not guaranteed a wonderful life absent of disappointments, we are guaranteed justification before God and the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ given to us so that we can be saved, not from poor self esteem but from sin and God's wrath.  Jesus, after feeding the multitudes in John 6, drove away many of his own disciples by John 6:66 because they refused to believe him.  We don't serve God because of temporal rewards, Stephen in the book of Acts sure didn't nor did Paul (read 2 Corinthians 11:24-26), but because of God's mercy and grace and a love for Him and a foreign righteousness (not our own). 

                "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. " (Ephesians 2:1-10).

                True biblical Christians have truly repented of their sin that offends a holy and righteous God, who doesn't wink at sin but will judge righteously.  Along with repentance comes a desire to serve Christ, a growing distaste for personal sin, a growing love for God's word and for Jesus Christ, and a legitimate love for Christian brothers and sisters.  Matthew 5 shows exactly what true Christians should exhibit: they are the poor in spirit, they are those who mourn, who are meek, and who hunger and thirst for righteousness, who are pure in heart, peacemakers, and who are persecuted for righteousness sake and because of Christ.

                Praise God for His mercy and for the gift of Jesus Christ!

              • kenhaining777
                [I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u have to say God could heal
                Message 7 of 25 , May 3, 2007

                  [I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u have to say God could heal me/give me a family/friends, if he wanted to - that these things didn't happen suggest that He had no interest in doing these things for me. No-one who was not Christian, would have looked at my life and said, "hey, that looks good. I'd like to join you in Christianity so that I can lose everyone I care about, and live a life of lonely tormented misery." Becoming Christian was the worst thing I ever did.]

                   

                  Once again, thank you for you honesty.

                  I also can say that if I had avoided the "born again" experience, which led to me becoming a part of Wayman's World, then I would bet that my life would have been far, far better.  This is, of course, barring some other decision to become a part of some other lifestyle that was equally destructive, like joining some other stupid religion.  Note when I say "stupid religion" I am referring to the Wayman O. brand of "Christianity." 

                  One of the arguments that people who continue to be Christian after the fellowship sometimes make, and also those Christians who were never part of Wayman's World will state, is that fellowship Christianity is a counterfeit.  They believe there are people in it who are "saved," but they also believe that they have been robbed of what God really has for them.  Since the Bible clearly warns that there will be false teachers and false believers, who will mislead people for their own selfish reasons, they say that it is not correct to throw out real Christianity because of the fakes.

                  An examination of Christian history, however, leaves me with the impression that the "fakes" are usually in the majority and have the most power.  Look at the Dark Ages. 

                  My position is that if the God of the Bible is real, and Jesus really is the Savior of the world, then God is going to have to show that to me in a way that only God could.  Religious arguments are endless.  Where is the LORD God of Elijah?  That's where I'm at.

                  Shalom

                   

                   

                • kenhaining777
                  [I don t post here much anymore, because I really don t have much to say about CFM anymore, what happened to me there seems like a bad LSD trip, that flashes
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 3, 2007


                    [I don't post here much anymore, because I really don't have much to say about CFM anymore, what happened to me there seems like a bad LSD trip, that flashes back on me ever now and again.... but the one thing that nightmare caused me to do was to seek God on my own, purging all the crap from CFM out of my system.  I remain a believer in Jesus Christ, but the word "christian" for the most part just makes me think: closeminded, bigoted, arrogant, elite, legalist, hypocrite...etc.etc, any thing and everything that Jesus Christ is NOT. ]

                     

                    Flash backs from a bad LSD trip.  Now there's a description.  I never took LSD, but I get the idea.  For me sometimes it is like a bad dream, but the time loss is real.  A period of religious insanity also comes to mind.

                    As for Christians, I see them just like other people.  I don't see the power of the Spirit of God in them any more than other folks, in general.  There are some really nice and good Christians, and there are some really nasty and mean Christians.  Same goes for non Christians.  So, what's the difference?  Beliefs affect people.  It is not uncommon, for example, for someone to give up drugs upon a religious conversion.  But the religion they convert to does not have to be Christianity to have this effect. 

                    As I have said, I take people as individuals, not as part of this group or that group.  For example, I think the Demomcatic Party is totally corrupt and destructive to America.   However, I have met decent folks of who are Democrats.  It is not the group they belong to so much that matters as it is who they are as individuals.  I understand that affiliation with certain groups requires a severe compromise of ethics, but in many cases people are just of differing opinions. 

                    All we have to do is take a look at the situation in the Mideast to see the destructive power of religious bigotry.  Hopefully the human race will move on from such low level junk in time to keep us from blowing ourselves to Hades. 

                    Shalom

                     

                     

                  • DONNA DAVIS
                    The problem is, as I see it, modern day Christianity has been turned into something that it was never meant to be. We are told that if we surrender our lives
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 3, 2007
                      The problem is, as I see it, modern day Christianity has been turned into something that it was never meant to be. We are told that if we surrender our lives to Christ, then pretty much all of our hurts, failures and the "voids" in our lives, will be taken care of. But the reality is something completely different than this "pie-in-the-sky" senario. All you gotta do is read Psalms to see that the picture of a life lived for God can be far from the rosy one painted by those that use it as a way to lure people into religion, and once you are caught up into it, are held hostage through preaching designed to lay guilt trips on us. I struggle daily with what is real, and what is the truth concerning my belief in Christianity (that is, what is true Christianity), but the reality is that I may never fully understand. I do know what I have experienced, rosy or not, is my truth.

                      sarkasservices <lsarkas@...>
                      wrote:
                      --- In Escape_from_ the_Fellowship@ yahoogroups. com, "zarathustra8_ 28"
                      <bob-the-fisherman@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Escape_from_ the_Fellowship@ yahoogroups. com, "sarkasservices"
                      > <lsarkas@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Remember God's ways are not mans ways! If you base your
                      experience of
                      > > getting to know Christ using people as a baseline for His
                      presence and
                      > > power, and Love you surely will not experience all He has to
                      offer.
                      > > Understanding The Omnipitence of Christ comes through prayer and
                      self
                      > > study, which will bring understanding through divine
                      intervention.
                      > > people are people, we are born sinners, and need to realize that
                      we
                      > > get involved with sin, sometimes unknowingly, but there is
                      repentence
                      > > and forgiveness from Christ, not from people. People love to
                      hang on
                      > > and have a field day with others issues when thier issues are
                      equal or
                      > > greater that they just ignore( The log in thier eye). GOD is not
                      > > crazed He knows exactly what he is doing, we are the ones with
                      twisted
                      > > theories. Pursue his word, and let him show you his love, as for
                      > > people, well it's a ME, ME, ME, ME world out there! When it
                      needs to
                      > > be HIM, HIM, HIM! hopefully i am making sense.
                      > >
                      >
                      > If this is aimed at me, I can say that I understand what you are
                      saying
                      > here, however, in all honesty, Christianity was the loneliest, most
                      > painful period of my life. I came into Christianity with problems,
                      due
                      > to several abusive people I encountered in childhood. At the time I
                      > joined the 'church' I had a family, friends, and was generally
                      happy
                      > with my place in the world, and my understanding of who I was.
                      When,
                      > seven and a half years later I left Christianity, I had no
                      friends, my
                      > family had been taken away, my self identity was lost, and I had
                      learned
                      > through the consistent pain of experience, that God simply could
                      not be
                      > trusted. He didn't heal or restore me, physically or emotionally,
                      he
                      > didn't help me, he didn't put me in a family but took it way (or
                      allowed
                      > it to be taken away) - he didn't restore 100 fold the family
                      (child)
                      > that I lost, no matter how much I prayed, then begged just to be
                      allowed
                      > to experience a little bit of peace and see some truth in my life
                      of
                      > what the Bible says regarding the way he treats his people. I
                      seemed to
                      > experience unrelenting hate from so-called Christians, and "even
                      what I
                      > had was taken away"... and all I was doing was desperately trying
                      to
                      > just be whatever a normal Christian was. Did I sin? Yes. But I was
                      told
                      > that everyone does, and that God doesn't punish us forever, but,
                      after
                      > eight and a half years of loneliness, I could not go on anymore. I
                      knew
                      > when I spoke to people and said that God is loving, and that he
                      heals
                      > people, I was lying. I got to the point of believing that people
                      that I
                      > know that are hurting and wounded would be better off never going
                      into a
                      > church. Better to go to hell when you die than start your life in
                      hell
                      > early by going into a so-called Christian church.
                      >
                      > I know that God doesn't do everything we want, however, if God's
                      plan
                      > for my life involves me spending my life alone with no friends and
                      > taking away my family he can get stuffed. I am human and need
                      friends -
                      > this seems like a basic human need, and God says he meets the
                      needs of
                      > his people - well, frankly, that is utter crap, he didn't do it
                      for me.
                      > I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was
                      > consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u
                      have to
                      > say God could heal me/give me a family/friends, if he wanted to -
                      that
                      > these things didn't happen suggest that He had no interest in doing
                      > these things for me. No-one who was not Christian, would have
                      looked at
                      > my life and said, "hey, that looks good. I'd like to join you in
                      > Christianity so that I can lose everyone I care about, and live a
                      life
                      > of lonely tormented misery." Becoming Christian was the worst
                      thing I
                      > ever did.
                      >
                      you have been ripped off of what real christianity is all about, a
                      typical result of being in CFM and not one of the chossen ones.
                      there is an abundant fullfilling life in JESUS. trust me, as i have
                      experienced much of what you have, You must still have a bible, when
                      you read it you will see that what has been done to you does not
                      jive with christianity! by the way your family can still be a
                      family even if they are not christians, and you can have friends
                      also that are not christians, you will not go to hell! and another
                      thing, i have experienced the same clickish people mentality since
                      1985 in many churches from east to west coast. again people are
                      people! they do what people do. that is why i pray for christ to
                      take the me out of me every day, because i am not perfect, but he is!
                      be good, and try not to cast Christ aside because of people. He
                      didnt make you feel the way you feel, man did!


                    • everout2002
                      Ken, I am neither Democrat or Republican, but why, in your opinion, do you consider the democratic party to be corrupt and desctructive to America? I think
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 3, 2007
                        Ken, I am neither Democrat or Republican, but why, in your opinion,
                        do you consider the democratic party to be corrupt and desctructive
                        to America? I think both parties are corrupt. The Bush
                        administration has shown to be very corrupt and destructive to
                        America.

                        No bid contracts given to "special" friends in Iraq, can anyone say
                        Halliburton, no link between Saddam and Alqueda, No WMD's found.
                        There is more, much more.

                        Christians have always been fooled by the Republican Party, who call
                        themselves "conservatives". Saying that you have met "decent folk"
                        who are democrats is condescending.



                        As I have said, I take people as individuals, not as part of this
                        group
                        > or that group. For example, I think the Demomcatic Party is totally
                        > corrupt and destructive to America. However, I have met decent
                        folks
                        > of who are Democrats. It is not the group they belong to so much
                        that
                        > matters as it is who they are as individuals.
                      • kenhaining777
                        [Ken, I am neither Democrat or Republican, but why, in your opinion, do you consider the democratic party to be corrupt and desctructive to America? I think
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 3, 2007

                          [Ken, I am neither Democrat or Republican, but why, in your opinion,
                          do you consider the democratic party to be corrupt and desctructive
                          to America? I think both parties are corrupt. The Bush
                          administration has shown to be very corrupt and destructive to
                          America.]

                          I consider the Republicans the lessor of two evils.  At least most of them don't favor partial birth abortion and even higher taxes for Americans.  But they have their problems too.  I don't see either party doing anything effective about unbridled free trade or our compromised borders.

                          No bid contracts given to "special" friends in Iraq, can anyone say
                          Halliburton, no link between Saddam and Alqueda, No WMD's found.
                          There is more, much more.

                          The Weapons of Mass destruction thing was a mistake, not some malicious thing that Bush made up to have an excuse to invade Iraq. Intelligence agencies from several countries "confirmed" that the weapons were there.  Saddam deliberately spread rumors that he had such weapons for the purpose of fending off an attack from Iran.  However, Bush used Iraq as a scape goat to respond to 911.  He didn't want to make waves with the Saudis because of the oil industry.  Very corrupt and weak.

                          Christians have always been fooled by the Republican Party, who call
                          themselves "conservatives". Saying that you have met "decent folk"
                          who are democrats is condescending.

                          I don't consider it condescending at all.  What was I saying is that just because I disagree with a group's overall beliefs does not mean that I cannot be a friend to someone who is a member of that group.  There are extremists who would take the stance that if anyone belongs to a group that they disapprove of, then that person must be messed up.  In the fellowship it was pretty much anyone who didn't belong to our group that we disapproved of, including almost every other church on the planet.  Since there are Democratic leaders who totally support partial birth abortion, some might think that anyone who belongs to that party is guilty of the blood of innocent babies.  The truth is that probably most Democrats would rather not have partial birth abortion be legal, but they are Democrats based on other issues.  In other words, not every Democrat is Hillary Clinton.  So I was saying that in spite of the fact that I don't approve of the Democratic Party, that doesn't mean there aren't decent people who are Democrats.  

                          Shalom

                           

                           

                           

                           

                           


                        • nancyinsanantone
                          There are extremists who would take the stance that if anyone belongs to a group that they disapprove of, then that person must be messed up We have a friend
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 3, 2007

                            There are extremists who would take the stance that if anyone belongs to a group that they disapprove of, then that person must be messed up

                            We have a friend who I like in all aspects, but he is very Pro-Israel, and I was dumbfounded one day when he blatantly blurted out that George Bush could not possibly be a christian because of his "compromising stance" on protecting Israel.  I draw the line at judging other people's hearts. I lost a little respect for our friend that day, and not that I am not for Israel (how could I not be considering my heritage), but I think conservative christianity is too overboard with the "left behind series" and how Israel plays out in "the end times", so they have to be protected, and why? So they can be virtually destroyed while the rest of christiandom is whisked off to safety in the rapture?!  But I digress,  I come from a republican family, they vote "straight republican ticket" all the time. As for me, I consider myself neither. I just vote for whoever represents my views the best, however imperfectly... I'll give you a hint, Hilary Clinton it ain't.... can you imagine to listening to her for 4 years? But hey that's just me.

                             p.s. Partial birth abortion is barbaric, evil and wrong. Period.


                            --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > [Ken, I am neither Democrat or Republican, but why, in your opinion,
                            > do you consider the democratic party to be corrupt and desctructive
                            > to America? I think both parties are corrupt. The Bush
                            > administration has shown to be very corrupt and destructive to
                            > America.]
                            >
                            > I consider the Republicans the lessor of two evils. At least most of
                            > them don't favor partial birth abortion and even higher taxes for
                            > Americans. But they have their problems too. I don't see either party
                            > doing anything effective about unbridled free trade or our compromised
                            > borders.
                            >
                            > No bid contracts given to "special" friends in Iraq, can anyone say
                            > Halliburton, no link between Saddam and Alqueda, No WMD's found.
                            > There is more, much more.
                            >
                            > The Weapons of Mass destruction thing was a mistake, not some malicious
                            > thing that Bush made up to have an excuse to invade Iraq. Intelligence
                            > agencies from several countries "confirmed" that the weapons were there.
                            > Saddam deliberately spread rumors that he had such weapons for the
                            > purpose of fending off an attack from Iran. However, Bush used Iraq as
                            > a scape goat to respond to 911. He didn't want to make waves with the
                            > Saudis because of the oil industry. Very corrupt and weak.
                            >
                            > Christians have always been fooled by the Republican Party, who call
                            > themselves "conservatives". Saying that you have met "decent folk"
                            > who are democrats is condescending.
                            >
                            > I don't consider it condescending at all. What was I saying is that
                            > just because I disagree with a group's overall beliefs does not mean
                            > that I cannot be a friend to someone who is a member of that group.
                            > There are extremists who would take the stance that if anyone belongs to
                            > a group that they disapprove of, then that person must be messed up. In
                            > the fellowship it was pretty much anyone who didn't belong to our group
                            > that we disapproved of, including almost every other church on the
                            > planet. Since there are Democratic leaders who totally support partial
                            > birth abortion, some might think that anyone who belongs to that party
                            > is guilty of the blood of innocent babies. The truth is that probably
                            > most Democrats would rather not have partial birth abortion be legal,
                            > but they are Democrats based on other issues. In other words, not every
                            > Democrat is Hillary Clinton. So I was saying that in spite of the fact
                            > that I don't approve of the Democratic Party, that doesn't mean there
                            > aren't decent people who are Democrats.
                            >
                            > Shalom
                            >

                          • nancyinsanantone
                            Donna, just to let you know. I always relate to what you say. [:)] You are just real. And I appreciate that. It is so good to just to be able to admit that
                            Message 13 of 25 , May 4, 2007

                              Donna, just to let you know. I always relate to what you say.  :)
                              You are just real. And I appreciate that.

                              It is so good to just to be able to admit that there are real problems, real struggles, real doubts, real hurts, and life ain't always rosy.  Sometimes everything sucks.  Faith is a struggle.  We don't have to go around saying "praise God, hallelujah, ain't life grand sister"....I love the Psalms, and what lends credence to the bible is that it doesn't sugarcoat things. It deals with real people in the raw realities of life.

                              And it's true, in this life we will never fully KNOW anything.  But deep in my heart, I truly believe that God is good, that He is love and that His love will not fail.  That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.....

                               

                              --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, DONNA DAVIS <dondv53@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The problem is, as I see it, modern day Christianity has been turned into something that it was never meant to be. We are told that if we surrender our lives to Christ, then pretty much all of our hurts, failures and the "voids" in our lives, will be taken care of. But the reality is something completely different than this "pie-in-the-sky" senario. All you gotta do is read Psalms to see that the picture of a life lived for God can be far from the rosy one painted by those that use it as a way to lure people into religion, and once you are caught up into it, are held hostage through preaching designed to lay guilt trips on us. I struggle daily with what is real, and what is the truth concerning my belief in Christianity (that is, what is true Christianity), but the reality is that I may never fully understand. I do know what I have experienced, rosy or not, is my truth.
                              >
                              > sarkasservices lsarkas@... wrote: --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "zarathustra8_28"
                              > bob-the-fisherman@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "sarkasservices"
                              > > <lsarkas@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Remember God's ways are not mans ways! If you base your
                              > experience of
                              > > > getting to know Christ using people as a baseline for His
                              > presence and
                              > > > power, and Love you surely will not experience all He has to
                              > offer.
                              > > > Understanding The Omnipitence of Christ comes through prayer and
                              > self
                              > > > study, which will bring understanding through divine
                              > intervention.
                              > > > people are people, we are born sinners, and need to realize that
                              > we
                              > > > get involved with sin, sometimes unknowingly, but there is
                              > repentence
                              > > > and forgiveness from Christ, not from people. People love to
                              > hang on
                              > > > and have a field day with others issues when thier issues are
                              > equal or
                              > > > greater that they just ignore( The log in thier eye). GOD is not
                              > > > crazed He knows exactly what he is doing, we are the ones with
                              > twisted
                              > > > theories. Pursue his word, and let him show you his love, as for
                              > > > people, well it's a ME, ME, ME, ME world out there! When it
                              > needs to
                              > > > be HIM, HIM, HIM! hopefully i am making sense.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > If this is aimed at me, I can say that I understand what you are
                              > saying
                              > > here, however, in all honesty, Christianity was the loneliest, most
                              > > painful period of my life. I came into Christianity with problems,
                              > due
                              > > to several abusive people I encountered in childhood. At the time I
                              > > joined the 'church' I had a family, friends, and was generally
                              > happy
                              > > with my place in the world, and my understanding of who I was.
                              > When,
                              > > seven and a half years later I left Christianity, I had no
                              > friends, my
                              > > family had been taken away, my self identity was lost, and I had
                              > learned
                              > > through the consistent pain of experience, that God simply could
                              > not be
                              > > trusted. He didn't heal or restore me, physically or emotionally,
                              > he
                              > > didn't help me, he didn't put me in a family but took it way (or
                              > allowed
                              > > it to be taken away) - he didn't restore 100 fold the family
                              > (child)
                              > > that I lost, no matter how much I prayed, then begged just to be
                              > allowed
                              > > to experience a little bit of peace and see some truth in my life
                              > of
                              > > what the Bible says regarding the way he treats his people. I
                              > seemed to
                              > > experience unrelenting hate from so-called Christians, and "even
                              > what I
                              > > had was taken away"... and all I was doing was desperately trying
                              > to
                              > > just be whatever a normal Christian was. Did I sin? Yes. But I was
                              > told
                              > > that everyone does, and that God doesn't punish us forever, but,
                              > after
                              > > eight and a half years of loneliness, I could not go on anymore. I
                              > knew
                              > > when I spoke to people and said that God is loving, and that he
                              > heals
                              > > people, I was lying. I got to the point of believing that people
                              > that I
                              > > know that are hurting and wounded would be better off never going
                              > into a
                              > > church. Better to go to hell when you die than start your life in
                              > hell
                              > > early by going into a so-called Christian church.
                              > >
                              > > I know that God doesn't do everything we want, however, if God's
                              > plan
                              > > for my life involves me spending my life alone with no friends and
                              > > taking away my family he can get stuffed. I am human and need
                              > friends -
                              > > this seems like a basic human need, and God says he meets the
                              > needs of
                              > > his people - well, frankly, that is utter crap, he didn't do it
                              > for me.
                              > > I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was
                              > > consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u
                              > have to
                              > > say God could heal me/give me a family/friends, if he wanted to -
                              > that
                              > > these things didn't happen suggest that He had no interest in doing
                              > > these things for me. No-one who was not Christian, would have
                              > looked at
                              > > my life and said, "hey, that looks good. I'd like to join you in
                              > > Christianity so that I can lose everyone I care about, and live a
                              > life
                              > > of lonely tormented misery." Becoming Christian was the worst
                              > thing I
                              > > ever did.
                              > >
                              > you have been ripped off of what real christianity is all about, a
                              > typical result of being in CFM and not one of the chossen ones.
                              > there is an abundant fullfilling life in JESUS. trust me, as i have
                              > experienced much of what you have, You must still have a bible, when
                              > you read it you will see that what has been done to you does not
                              > jive with christianity! by the way your family can still be a
                              > family even if they are not christians, and you can have friends
                              > also that are not christians, you will not go to hell! and another
                              > thing, i have experienced the same clickish people mentality since
                              > 1985 in many churches from east to west coast. again people are
                              > people! they do what people do. that is why i pray for christ to
                              > take the me out of me every day, because i am not perfect, but he is!
                              > be good, and try not to cast Christ aside because of people. He
                              > didnt make you feel the way you feel, man did!
                              >

                            • DONNA DAVIS
                              Understandable! kenhaining777 wrote: [I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was consistently
                              Message 14 of 25 , May 4, 2007
                                Understandable!

                                kenhaining777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                [I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u have to say God could heal me/give me a family/friends, if he wanted to - that these things didn't happen suggest that He had no interest in doing these things for me. No-one who was not Christian, would have looked at my life and said, "hey, that looks good. I'd like to join you in Christianity so that I can lose everyone I care about, and live a life of lonely tormented misery." Becoming Christian was the worst thing I ever did.]
                                 
                                Once again, thank you for you honesty.
                                I also can say that if I had avoided the "born again" experience, which led to me becoming a part of Wayman's World, then I would bet that my life would have been far, far better.  This is, of course, barring some other decision to become a part of some other lifestyle that was equally destructive, like joining some other stupid religion.  Note when I say "stupid religion" I am referring to the Wayman O. brand of "Christianity. " 
                                One of the arguments that people who continue to be Christian after the fellowship sometimes make, and also those Christians who were never part of Wayman's World will state, is that fellowship Christianity is a counterfeit.  They believe there are people in it who are "saved," but they also believe that they have been robbed of what God really has for them.  Since the Bible clearly warns that there will be false teachers and false believers, who will mislead people for their own selfish reasons, they say that it is not correct to throw out real Christianity because of the fakes.
                                An examination of Christian history, however, leaves me with the impression that the "fakes" are usually in the majority and have the most power.  Look at the Dark Ages. 
                                My position is that if the God of the Bible is real, and Jesus really is the Savior of the world, then God is going to have to show that to me in a way that only God could.  Religious arguments are endless.  Where is the LORD God of Elijah?  That's where I'm at.
                                Shalom
                                 
                                 

                              • DONNA DAVIS
                                I appreciate your encouraging words. It helps me to know others struggle as I do, though I hate that for you, or for anyone. So, thanks for your honesty.
                                Message 15 of 25 , May 4, 2007
                                  I appreciate your encouraging words. It helps me to know others struggle as I do, though I hate that for you, or for anyone. So, thanks for your honesty.

                                  nancyinsanantone <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                  Donna, just to let you know. I always relate to what you say.  :)
                                  You are just real. And I appreciate that.
                                  It is so good to just to be able to admit that there are real problems, real struggles, real doubts, real hurts, and life ain't always rosy.  Sometimes everything sucks.  Faith is a struggle.  We don't have to go around saying "praise God, hallelujah, ain't life grand sister"....I love the Psalms, and what lends credence to the bible is that it doesn't sugarcoat things. It deals with real people in the raw realities of life.
                                  And it's true, in this life we will never fully KNOW anything.  But deep in my heart, I truly believe that God is good, that He is love and that His love will not fail.  That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.....
                                   
                                  --- In Escape_from_ the_Fellowship@ yahoogroups. com, DONNA DAVIS <dondv53@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The problem is, as I see it, modern day Christianity has been turned into something that it was never meant to be. We are told that if we surrender our lives to Christ, then pretty much all of our hurts, failures and the "voids" in our lives, will be taken care of. But the reality is something completely different than this "pie-in-the- sky" senario. All you gotta do is read Psalms to see that the picture of a life lived for God can be far from the rosy one painted by those that use it as a way to lure people into religion, and once you are caught up into it, are held hostage through preaching designed to lay guilt trips on us. I struggle daily with what is real, and what is the truth concerning my belief in Christianity (that is, what is true Christianity) , but the reality is that I may never fully understand. I do know what I have experienced, rosy or not, is my truth.
                                  >
                                  > sarkasservices lsarkas@... wrote: --- In Escape_from_ the_Fellowship@ yahoogroups. com, "zarathustra8_ 28"
                                  > bob-the-fisherman@ wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Escape_from_ the_Fellowship@ yahoogroups. com, "sarkasservices"
                                  > > <lsarkas@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Remember God's ways are not mans ways! If you base your
                                  > experience of
                                  > > > getting to know Christ using people as a baseline for His
                                  > presence and
                                  > > > power, and Love you surely will not experience all He has to
                                  > offer.
                                  > > > Understanding The Omnipitence of Christ comes through prayer and
                                  > self
                                  > > > study, which will bring understanding through divine
                                  > intervention.
                                  > > > people are people, we are born sinners, and need to realize that
                                  > we
                                  > > > get involved with sin, sometimes unknowingly, but there is
                                  > repentence
                                  > > > and forgiveness from Christ, not from people. People love to
                                  > hang on
                                  > > > and have a field day with others issues when thier issues are
                                  > equal or
                                  > > > greater that they just ignore( The log in thier eye). GOD is not
                                  > > > crazed He knows exactly what he is doing, we are the ones with
                                  > twisted
                                  > > > theories. Pursue his word, and let him show you his love, as for
                                  > > > people, well it's a ME, ME, ME, ME world out there! When it
                                  > needs to
                                  > > > be HIM, HIM, HIM! hopefully i am making sense.
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > > If this is aimed at me, I can say that I understand what you are
                                  > saying
                                  > > here, however, in all honesty, Christianity was the loneliest, most
                                  > > painful period of my life. I came into Christianity with problems,
                                  > due
                                  > > to several abusive people I encountered in childhood. At the time I
                                  > > joined the 'church' I had a family, friends, and was generally
                                  > happy
                                  > > with my place in the world, and my understanding of who I was.
                                  > When,
                                  > > seven and a half years later I left Christianity, I had no
                                  > friends, my
                                  > > family had been taken away, my self identity was lost, and I had
                                  > learned
                                  > > through the consistent pain of experience, that God simply could
                                  > not be
                                  > > trusted. He didn't heal or restore me, physically or emotionally,
                                  > he
                                  > > didn't help me, he didn't put me in a family but took it way (or
                                  > allowed
                                  > > it to be taken away) - he didn't restore 100 fold the family
                                  > (child)
                                  > > that I lost, no matter how much I prayed, then begged just to be
                                  > allowed
                                  > > to experience a little bit of peace and see some truth in my life
                                  > of
                                  > > what the Bible says regarding the way he treats his people. I
                                  > seemed to
                                  > > experience unrelenting hate from so-called Christians, and "even
                                  > what I
                                  > > had was taken away"... and all I was doing was desperately trying
                                  > to
                                  > > just be whatever a normal Christian was. Did I sin? Yes. But I was
                                  > told
                                  > > that everyone does, and that God doesn't punish us forever, but,
                                  > after
                                  > > eight and a half years of loneliness, I could not go on anymore. I
                                  > knew
                                  > > when I spoke to people and said that God is loving, and that he
                                  > heals
                                  > > people, I was lying. I got to the point of believing that people
                                  > that I
                                  > > know that are hurting and wounded would be better off never going
                                  > into a
                                  > > church. Better to go to hell when you die than start your life in
                                  > hell
                                  > > early by going into a so-called Christian church
                                  > >
                                  > > I know that God doesn't do everything we want, however, if God's
                                  > plan
                                  > > for my life involves me spending my life alone with no friends and
                                  > > taking away my family he can get stuffed. I am human and need
                                  > friends -
                                  > > this seems like a basic human need, and God says he meets the
                                  > needs of
                                  > > his people - well, frankly, that is utter crap, he didn't do it
                                  > for me.
                                  > > I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was
                                  > > consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u
                                  > have to
                                  > > say God could heal me/give me a family/friends, if he wanted to -
                                  > that
                                  > > these things didn't happen suggest that He had no interest in doing
                                  > > these things for me. No-one who was not Christian, would have
                                  > looked at
                                  > > my life and said, "hey, that looks good. I'd like to join you in
                                  > > Christianity so that I can lose everyone I care about, and live a
                                  > life
                                  > > of lonely tormented misery." Becoming Christian was the worst
                                  > thing I
                                  > > ever did.
                                  > >
                                  > you have been ripped off of what real christianity is all about, a
                                  > typical result of being in CFM and not one of the chossen ones.
                                  > there is an abundant fullfilling life in JESUS. trust me, as i have
                                  > experienced much of what you have, You must still have a bible, when
                                  > you read it you will see that what has been done to you does not
                                  > jive with christianity! by the way your family can still be a
                                  > family even if they are not christians, and you can have friends
                                  > also that are not christians, you will not go to hell! and another
                                  > thing, i have experienced the same clickish people mentality since
                                  > 1985 in many churches from east to west coast. again people are
                                  > people! they do what people do. that is why i pray for christ to
                                  > take the me out of me every day, because i am not perfect, but he is!
                                  > be good, and try not to cast Christ aside because of people. He
                                  > didnt make you feel the way you feel, man did!
                                  >

                                • icdeadworks
                                  [An examination of Christian history, however, leaves me with the impression that the fakes are usually in the majority and have the most power.] ...yep.
                                  Message 16 of 25 , May 5, 2007

                                    [An examination of Christian history, however, leaves me with the impression that the "fakes" are usually in the majority and have the most power.]

                                    ...yep. Same here. Part of what keeps me away from church. Walking in I never know what they're going to puke onto my lap. That and it is drilled into my head so deeply how other churches are so screwed up around my town. That is compliments to my former pastor who made constant references to local mega churches and other demonimations during sermons; mocking them to scorn. Man, wasn't there a point where he could just get over it and move on and focus on what God wanted to do in our church? Of course not! We all got so sick of him carring on with it over, and over and again, here he goes! Yes, you hate the other church - we get it. REally. We do. You're jealous. Now, can we move on ... please... something relevant to this church perhaps? And they told me I was bitter?! LOL!!

                                     

                                     


                                    --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, DONNA DAVIS <dondv53@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Understandable!
                                    >
                                    > kenhaining777 no_reply@yahoogroups.com wrote: [I loved God and was the best Christian I knew how to be, and was consistently treated like crap. In the end, in my position, y0u have to say God could heal me/give me a family/friends, if he wanted to - that these things didn't happen suggest that He had no interest in doing these things for me. No-one who was not Christian, would have looked at my life and said, "hey, that looks good. I'd like to join you in Christianity so that I can lose everyone I care about, and live a life of lonely tormented misery." Becoming Christian was the worst thing I ever did.]
                                    >
                                    > Once again, thank you for you honesty.
                                    > I also can say that if I had avoided the "born again" experience, which led to me becoming a part of Wayman's World, then I would bet that my life would have been far, far better. This is, of course, barring some other decision to become a part of some other lifestyle that was equally destructive, like joining some other stupid religion. Note when I say "stupid religion" I am referring to the Wayman O. brand of "Christianity."
                                    > One of the arguments that people who continue to be Christian after the fellowship sometimes make, and also those Christians who were never part of Wayman's World will state, is that fellowship Christianity is a counterfeit. They believe there are people in it who are "saved," but they also believe that they have been robbed of what God really has for them. Since the Bible clearly warns that there will be false teachers and false believers, who will mislead people for their own selfish reasons, they say that it is not correct to throw out real Christianity because of the fakes.
                                    > An examination of Christian history, however, leaves me with the impression that the "fakes" are usually in the majority and have the most power. Look at the Dark Ages.
                                    > My position is that if the God of the Bible is real, and Jesus really is the Savior of the world, then God is going to have to show that to me in a way that only God could. Religious arguments are endless. Where is the LORD God of Elijah? That's where I'm at.
                                    > Shalom
                                    >

                                  • kenhaining777
                                    Donna said: [Understandable!] I wrote something that was understandable? Maybe there is a God! Or did you mean the other guy? Shalom
                                    Message 17 of 25 , May 5, 2007

                                      Donna said:

                                      [Understandable!]

                                       

                                      I wrote something that was understandable?  Maybe there is a God!  Or did you mean the other guy?

                                      Shalom


                                    • kenhaining777
                                      Nancy wrote: [Donna, just to let you know. I always relate to what you say. [:)] You are just real. And I appreciate that. It is so good to just to be able
                                      Message 18 of 25 , May 5, 2007

                                        Nancy wrote:

                                        [Donna, just to let you know. I always relate to what you say.  :)
                                        You are just real. And I appreciate that.

                                        It is so good to just to be able to admit that there are real problems, real struggles, real doubts, real hurts, and life ain't always rosy.  Sometimes everything sucks.  Faith is a struggle.  We don't have to go around saying "praise God, hallelujah, ain't life grand sister"....I love the Psalms, and what lends credence to the bible is that it doesn't sugarcoat things. It deals with real people in the raw realities of life.]

                                         

                                         Basically, what you said was that in the fellowship you have to put on an act.  That is the very meaning of hypocrite.  There was so much pressure to "preform" and jump through all the hoops that the whole meaning of being saved by Jesus was lost.  We were saving ourselves every day by being a part of "the greatest move of God in the earth today."  And we were the greatest Christians.  Except, we became the proof that Christianity was a false religion, because we became something far more wicked than the neighborhood drunk or prostitute.  We became the epitome of the self righteous religous jerk.  We had to cross land and sea with massive outreaches to make one convert who would become even worse than us. 

                                        Thanks Nancy and Donna.  It is good to be real, isn't it?

                                        Shalom

                                         

                                         

                                      • kenhaining777
                                        Donna said: [I appreciate your encouraging words. It helps me to know others struggle as I do, though I hate that for you, or for anyone. So, thanks for your
                                        Message 19 of 25 , May 5, 2007

                                          Donna said:

                                          [I appreciate your encouraging words. It helps me to know others struggle as I do, though I hate that for you, or for anyone. So, thanks for your honesty].

                                           

                                          Honesty.  What a strange concept for fellowship leaders.

                                          Shalom 

                                        • kenhaining777
                                          I said: [An examination of Christian history, however, leaves me with the impression that the fakes are usually in the majority and have the most power.]
                                          Message 20 of 25 , May 5, 2007
                                            I said:

                                            [An examination of Christian history, however, leaves me with the impression that the "fakes" are usually in the majority and have the most power.]

                                            Icdeadworks said:

                                            [...yep. Same here. Part of what keeps me away from church. Walking in I never know what they're going to puke onto my lap. That and it is drilled into my head so deeply how other churches are so screwed up around my town. That is compliments to my former pastor who made constant references to local mega churches and other demonimations during sermons; mocking them to scorn. Man, wasn't there a point where he could just get over it and move on and focus on what God wanted to do in our church? Of course not! We all got so sick of him carring on with it over, and over and again, here he goes! Yes, you hate the other church - we get it. REally. We do. You're jealous. Now, can we move on ... please... something relevant to this church perhaps? And they told me I was bitter?! LOL!!]

                                             

                                            Ha! The mega church bashing.  How I remember it well.  The only churches that could have THAT MANY PEOPLE were luked out.  Yet the "count" was extemely important to fellowship pastors and leaders.  My own leader/pastor boasted to some of us how he made the ushers do another "count" on conference night and told them to make sure the counted all the kids asleep on the floor, etc.  This brought the numbers up, he said.  I personally think the ushers fudged the numbers to appease his unholiness.  But that's me.

                                            My Jewish Christian friend is quick to remind me, when I give the fellowship of Wayman O. as proof that all this Bible stuff is bunk, that the Bible says there will be many false christs, many false prophets, and false teachers among the church.  God judges these in His own time and His own way.  She says that like Elihah, you have to wait for God to deal with Ahab and Jezebel in His own way and time.  But I prefer Instant Karma.  Well, at least I am honest.

                                            What does God want to do in YOUR fellowship church?  Set you free to go to another church would be my best guess.  (This, of course, is based on the idea that God loves you.)

                                            Shalom

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                          • DONNA DAVIS
                                            LOL! I m just saying it s totally understandable why any one of us who left the fellowship, have trouble trusting anything that seems religious. kenhaining777
                                            Message 21 of 25 , May 6, 2007
                                              LOL! I'm just saying it's totally understandable why any one of us who left the fellowship, have trouble trusting anything that seems religious.

                                              kenhaining777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                              Donna said:
                                              [Understandable! ]
                                               
                                              I wrote something that was understandable?  Maybe there is a God!  Or did you mean the other guy?
                                              Shalom


                                            • nancyinsanantone
                                              Except, we became the ... We ... UNDERSTANDABLE! ha ha. No, you are absolutely correct. I just prefer to be myself, what you see, is what you get..... and it
                                              Message 22 of 25 , May 7, 2007

                                                Except, we became the

                                                > proof that Christianity was a false religion, because we became
                                                > something far more wicked than the neighborhood drunk or prostitute. We
                                                > became the epitome of the self righteous religous jerk

                                                UNDERSTANDABLE!

                                                ha ha. 

                                                No, you are absolutely correct.  I just prefer to be myself, what you see, is what you get..... and it is good to be real.  I felt like I had lost myself for so long, I remember being at work and I was so religious I felt guilty if I laughed and had a good time. I felt guilty if I laughed at a joke.  I am sure that everyone wanted what I had... but one thing that was always true, people that had problems would confide in me.  But then again, it was like that before I ever became a christian.....


                                                --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Nancy wrote:
                                                >
                                                > [Donna, just to let you know. I always relate to what you say. [:)]
                                                > You are just real. And I appreciate that.
                                                >
                                                > It is so good to just to be able to admit that there are real problems,
                                                > real struggles, real doubts, real hurts, and life ain't always rosy.
                                                > Sometimes everything sucks. Faith is a struggle. We don't have to go
                                                > around saying "praise God, hallelujah, ain't life grand sister"....I
                                                > love the Psalms, and what lends credence to the bible is that it doesn't
                                                > sugarcoat things. It deals with real people in the raw realities of
                                                > life.]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Basically, what you said was that in the fellowship you have to put on
                                                > an act. That is the very meaning of hypocrite. There was so much
                                                > pressure to "preform" and jump through all the hoops that the whole
                                                > meaning of being saved by Jesus was lost. We were saving ourselves
                                                > every day by being a part of "the greatest move of God in the earth
                                                > today." And we were the greatest Christians. Except, we became the
                                                > proof that Christianity was a false religion, because we became
                                                > something far more wicked than the neighborhood drunk or prostitute. We
                                                > became the epitome of the self righteous religous jerk. We had to cross
                                                > land and sea with massive outreaches to make one convert who would
                                                > become even worse than us.
                                                >
                                                > Thanks Nancy and Donna. It is good to be real, isn't it?
                                                >
                                                > Shalom
                                                >

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