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Re: [Escape_from_the_Fellowship] Re: Changes in Beliefs

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  • George Potkonyak
    [Actually, I was more addressing what George had said in past posts. I don t remember his exact words, but he said something to the effect that you can hear
    Message 1 of 34 , Jun 1, 2005
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      [Actually, I was more addressing what George had said in past
      posts. I don't remember his exact words, but he said something
      to the effect that you can hear from God the same way the people
      of God have always heard from God, "The voice of the LORD came
      to him.....", etc.]

      Yep! That's my point. As also Haboboo pointed to the
      scriptures that most of christians read but ignore.

      Having said that, it is not to say that God must speak to each
      individual face to face or that each individual must hear from
      God by his own hearing. It appears, from the written records,
      that God spoke TO the individuals and THOROUGH the individuals
      (prophets). If it has been good and well in those times, why it
      should not be good and well now? Were there not false prophets
      and the "presumptuous" prophets back then? There were, as Ken
      pointed out to the guy in Jeremiah's time. There were many
      others who prophesied falsely. The God's people survived.

      Let's look now seriously the need for a written "word of God".
      Why is it necessary? Look at this "deep theological" statement:

      "God is."

      Assume that you want to find some absolute reference or an
      absolute test to see if the above holds. What do you need? A
      written statement that says "God is"? I can write one; no
      problem. But, that would not be enough. You need someone with
      authority who can write that so that you can believe. So, how
      do you find one? Check his intelligence? References?
      Education? Witnesses?

      Or, do you seek a proof that he heard from God? If so, what
      kind of proof do you need? That so and so said so? Or that so
      many others believe so?

      Even if you find one who you believe heard from God that the
      above is true, then wrote it down for you, you are back to what
      I said: the word of confirmation must come to you from God or
      from someone who heard from God.

      If the one whom you believe to have heard from God is your
      contemporary you could check what credentials he has. However,
      if he is not your contemporary you must rely on something else.
      What that something else is?

      To put it this way: if a god is not able to confirm to you,
      without a reliance to some "inspired" ancient writing, that "God
      is", that god is not God.

      On the other hand, if you read an ancient writing, whether you
      think that is inspired or not, AND by reading about a god, you
      get a TANGIBLE evidence that what that god does or promised to
      do, then that god is God.

      On the OTHER other hand, if you don't get a TANGIBLE evidence
      about a god, no matter where and how you heard about him, he is
      not God. At least not as far as you are concerned. If God
      wanted you to know Him, for sure and certain, He would make it
      happen for sure and certain. If He doesn't, don't bother. You
      have already put Him to the notice that you would like to meet
      with Him. He will do the rest AT HIS PLEASURE, otherwise He is
      not God.

      But, please, don't insist that He MUST produce a writing. He
      does not have to and, most probably will not. You may be
      waiting in vain.

      On the other, OTHER, other... hand, there is nothing wrong with
      the bible as it is. It is still the most comprehensive, the
      most reliable and the most ancient set of writings that speaks
      about God and His dealings with people. It does not have to
      mean that everyting that is written there is "inspired" and an
      absolute truth. If that is the case, you don't need to throw
      the whole lot away.

      How do you discern?

      Easy. Start by eliminating the stuff based on intrinsic
      evidence by comparing scripture with scripture. If there is
      conflict between the Old and New Testament, reject the latter.
      What will be left may not be "the whole truth, nothing but
      truth", and it does not have to. Why it should?

      You are looking for evidence of God not for evidence that so an
      so has written an "inspired" word. No writing can be an
      evidence of God. By insisting on an "inspired, inerrant word of
      God", people have forced the issue and arbitrarily accepted a
      set of writings because they could not find a better one.
      That's why we have an avalanche of other "sacred writings"
      following the "canonisation" of the bible. Some smart dudes
      found out that it is so easy to deceive people so they did just
      that.

      Shalom,
      george
    • unmaskedinsanantone
      Thanks for the encouragement Paul. ... to ... am ... and ... judged. ... before ... the ... heard ... heard ... kenhaining777
      Message 34 of 34 , Jun 2, 2005
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        Thanks for the encouragement Paul.


        --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "Paul"
        <howshmmm@y...> wrote:
        > Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in
        > time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
        > Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he
        > hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
        > God speaks through His Word. Yeshua was the Word or Torah Made
        > flesh. I believe that what we use to be sure we hear God speaking
        to
        > us is HIS WORD. Nothing else can clarify if we have heard God
        > speaking. He doesn't condradict Himself. If I can't find a Word I
        am
        > hearing to be biblically supported I can toss it.
        >
        > For example, a Prophet say go Kill the Pastor. The Bible forbids
        > Killing. Thats a False word, period. A Prophet says God desires you
        > to go preach. Thats in the Bible. Mark 16:15 Go into all the world
        > and preach the gospel(good news) to every creature. Do it, recieve
        > it, its God, Period. Using a very simple medifore. It needs to be
        > aligned with Gods charechter. It doesn't have to be spelled out so
        > clearly like I just did, but it wont go against what God is Like
        and
        > what He has revealed in His written word. (note to George pay
        > attention, hahaha)
        >
        > So what your hearing I would say is God sis. He is saying to you
        > what you feel He is saying, and its supported by His Word. Let God
        > be true and every man a liar. Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be
        > true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be
        > justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art
        judged.
        > Be blessed~
        > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com,
        > unmaskedinsanantone <no_reply@y...> wrote:
        > > "Many would say that makes me a quack or nuts Schitzoid even but
        > it
        > > was only once"
        > >
        > > I believe you.
        > > God can speak to people in an audible voice if He desires.
        > > I just know its not a casual thing like some would like us to
        > believe.
        > > He speaks to me too, but it is usually in the form of a scripture
        > > that keeps coming into my mind. The last few days for some reason
        > I
        > > have been hearing this: "Let God be true and every man a liar".
        > > Because of what I have been praying about lately, I take it to
        > mean
        > > that I am to believe God no matter what
        > > my silly thoughts/people/churches/traditions may say.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "Paul"
        > > <howshmmm@y...> wrote:
        > > > Ken said:
        > > > I was comparing Abraham hearing God speak to him to what
        > Christians
        > > > claim today in terms of God saying this or that to them.
        > > >
        > > > Ken you pastored for 15 years and served God for how long
        before
        > > you
        > > > sent out. I am wondering didn't you ever in those years hear
        the
        > > voice
        > > > of God? You have questioned many things and I understand doing
        > that
        > > > coming out of what you did.
        > > >
        > > > I have heard the Voice The Audible voice of Yeshua. I have
        heard
        > it
        > > in
        > > > my heart, and in my mind, I have heard it from your mouth and
        > other
        > > > men who preached His word, as I have read the Bible I have
        heard
        > > Him
        > > > speaking to me, and last but not least the audible words of the
        > > Most
        > > > High out loud in the room I was in outside of my body.
        > > >
        > > > Many would say that makes me a quack or nuts Schitzoid even but
        > it
        > > was
        > > > only once. I have no doubts especially because of that
        > happenning
        > > to
        > > > me that God is real the God of the Bible, and that His Son is
        > real
        > > and
        > > > He is Still ALIVE. I died and heard Him call me back to life.
        > Dead
        > > Ken
        > > > He called to me out loud. I was alone when this happend, so it
        > > wasn't
        > > > someone I thought was God, it was Yeshua saying breathe.
        > > > Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they
        > follow
        > > > me:
        > > > Joh 10:4 When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before
        > them,
        > > > and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
        > > > Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee
        > from
        > > him:
        > > > for they know not the voice of strangers.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com,
        kenhaining777
        > > > <no_reply@y...> wrote:
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