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Re: PH kid describes bad experience

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  • rockstar645
    Yep, I know it is a good post because I really lived it, and I remember keeping a journal of every question I had and when I would ask anyone at the church,
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 24, 2013
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      Yep, I know it is a good post because I really lived it, and I remember keeping a journal of every question I had and when I would ask anyone at the church, they would tell me that it was the devil playing mind games. I agree that pastor's kids are definitely unbalanced and mostly less prepared and competitive for life after the potters house. Before I left PH, one pastor's wife told me that I would literally become mentally ill if I put college before god/church events. I agree that there are no really cool testimonies for pastor's kids, and it would be pretty embarassing to have to get up and make up something because I really didn't feel like I had anything to say. I would reiterate what I heard from girls at the youth rally and that was mostly being thankful for still being a virgin (at 13 lol), being thankful for "not being out in the world," and thankful for not being on drugs, gang-raped, and the worst of the worst. But that was what we are told the world is all about haha. I remember as a kid I had to stay behind for conference, and I started to go when I was 16. I didn't realize I was being exploited at that point and the pressure to fit in at conference with the other young ladies that had finding a "man of god" at the top of their prayer list. That life can be tempting because you can look forward to becoming a stay-at-home wife/mom in ignorant bliss. But being the nosey kid that I was, I was aware of all the problems that couples had in the church. I would stay awake at night with my ear against the wall listening in on pastors talking in the living room about all the situations that were happening with couples in the fellowship. I learned that privacy is not guaranteed. That what happens behind closed doors and hits the pastors' ears hits another pastor's ears. I heard the screaming back and forth between my own parents, the slammed doors, the stress was there.  Being homeschooled, my parents didn't have much privacy.  This is how I learned the strategies that the leaders come up with to break up families and marriages. They side with one or the other so that one spouse is in the wrong and gets kicked to the curb. I really was sad when I built attachments to people who started to come to church and then they would decide to leave for reasons I felt in my heart (but would never voice) were legitimate. I know what happens when a pastor has to go back for re-direction. All the gossip that is spread when we went "home" to the mother church is so contagious, and looking back,  I said awful things about people that left the church that I didn't mean or really feel about them, but there was so much hate toward rebels that you just kind of join the bully system and mock and ridicule the same people that you loved yesterday. I can't believe I was that kind of a person that I was back then, even though I was smart and aware of what was going on, it's the cult mindset or group-think that makes you justify that your actions are ok. Its accepted to talk about the rebels who left as if you are so much better than they are. What happened to love and compassion?  The fellowship is extremely judgmental an has no conscience when it comes to disrupting families lives even when they are doing ok and stable they can make you feel like you need to move on a whim or because authority "hears from god." Although I didn't know back then about how the world works, I knew that the Big 3 revelation movies were totally outdated and that my parents scare tactics were getting old. I snuck in watching the scary movies while they were at conference and we stayed with the sitter and the revelations Big 3 movies gave me the same nightmares as the worldly ones but somehow it was never ok to have a normal emotion. Its not ok to be sad or afraid or to have a bad day. I learned when I got out that there is no such thing as a wrong emotion. Its ok to feel that way but it is NOT ok when you feel sad consistently to where its everyday and you cant be excited about anything at all over a span of years, like I was in PH,  never wanted to get out of bed for outreach, church or anything really. I just wore a fake face, pasted on a smile for appearances because you were taught as a pastor's kid you have to be an example, and it really was depression. Depression is real and is extremely common in PH pastors' kids. But nothing is dealt with professionally or appropriately, you are just told to "pray about it," and if that doesn't work you get put on some discipline for an attitude adjustments.  I never learned any real life skills, like keeping a budget or applying for jobs, going to school. I was deprived of all entertainment, survival skills that I couldn't get enough when I left. There really is a big world out there worth exploring!! I am completely self-taught and had to reach out to "worldly" resources to get that kind of help because I really think that it was taken for granted that I would be married off to some PH disciple goon, which probably would have been the easy route for me to take, since ignorance is bliss and all, and women are really just a commodity there. BTW I noticed the slim-pickings deal with the men. What's up with that? There are more women than men, because the women want the easy way out. All they need is a dingy husband in CFM to fall for their super religiousity and they are set for life, or so they think.  There is no balance in the PH. Even if there is some balance before you join, you will eventually have to give all to be accepted into the social caste or don't give anything and be gossiped about or corrected by the pastor, or better yet, you can leave before you are stuck. It is a social trap and you end up focusing on things that don't matter when you should be taking responsibility for your own family relationships and supporting the children you create, not raising them to feed them to the wolves. When your a kid growing up in that, it is all you know and it is confusing when you learn about how life really is, either you learn for yourself when you get out or it creeps up on you if you stay. I've asked myself time and time again, of all the organizations, fraternities, out there that my parents could have joined and been successful in, why PH?  and I've come to the conclusion that God must really hate me because apparently WaymanChrist is broke, and he needs my family to send him all their time and money to maintain those paved streets of gold, at least that is what I gathered from the PH experience.   
       
      --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "daveperth4" <prizm4@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > rockstar645 wrote:
      > >> I noticed that you were interested in what it is like for someone>
      > who grew up all their life in the PH, and I am a former PH pastor's
      > kid who experienced it firsthand and it really is as bad as it is >
      > described here.
      >
      > This is one of the best posts I've read on this board. I was also born
      > into the Fellowship and was a pastor's kid, so I can relate to almost
      > everything written: The struggles and disappointments experienced by
      > your parents pastoring a church and the disdain towards those that leave
      > your tiny congregation; the over-the-top discipline (spank the rebellion
      > out of them), the mini-Fellowship that is the family household, and so
      > on.

      > It's true that if you're a "real" disciple in the Fellowship, then your
      > life plateaus. You get stuck on this treadmill of trying to "do
      > something for God", so week after week, year after year it's the same
      > old mind-numbing routine. It's like Ken mentioned once, you start losing
      > time. You can't remember stuff. The years are just one blurry mess of
      > conferences, droning pastor voices, guilt, and vain repetitions in the
      > prayer room. 
      > Something I've talked about before is that someone who grows up in the
      > Fellowship is often less balanced than those who joined when they were
      > adults. We church kids received the "pure and undefiled religion" of
      > CFM. We had no outside frame of reference. No comparison. When we were
      > taught that "doing something for God" is the most important and not to
      > worry about worldly pursuits, we took it word for word. We shunned
      > science and education from an early age because they taught demonic
      > concepts like evolution and the big bang. When we were children, we
      > learned that sickness is caused by demons and that if someone had breast
      > cancer, it was because she hated her husband. So we learned to be
      > suspicious of those who were sick....they're probably involved in some
      > kind of secret sin.We were taught that many of our toys were influenced
      > by the devil and carried spirits that could give us nightmares. Our
      > primary school friends got curious and asked us if we were religious,
      > and we said no. Why? Because we're not part of a religion, we have a
      > personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Although we didn't have a
      > personal testimony, so the best we could do was invite them to our
      > church for a showing of the Big 3 (Thief in the Night series) to scare
      > the crap out of them. But most never came because they knew our church
      > banned TV.
      > Meanwhile, those who come into the church as adults have outside
      > experience. Some of them realise the importance of education even if you
      > have plans in the Fellowship. They're a bit more skeptical about demons
      > hiding in every corner. They're not so quick to judge someone for being
      > sick. They're just a bit more balanced when it comes to how the world
      > works. Although as we know, this doesn't always make a difference.
      > Whatever chance they had of resisting CFM's garbage can be purged and
      > they can be re-programmed for discipleship, church planting, and world
      > evangelism.
      >
    • daveperth4
      ... sad or afraid or to have a bad day. Exactly. Any negative emotion was clamped down upon as you being in rebellion, having an argumentative spirit, failing
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 25, 2013
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        --- "rockstar645" wrote:
        >
        > somehow it was never ok to have a normal emotion. Its not ok to be
        > sad or afraid or to have a bad day.

        Exactly. Any negative emotion was clamped down upon as you being in rebellion, having an argumentative spirit, failing to act like a christian, harboring unbelief, full of doubt, and so on. If you don't "have the victory" every single day, then you've done something wrong. "How's your prayer life? Did you actually read your bible this morning? Don't even think about seeing some worldly psychologist, Jesus is the only cure you need...or don't you truly believe that?? You need to get your heart right."

        > BTW I noticed the slim-pickings deal with the men. What's up with that?
        > There are more women than men, because the women want the easy way out.

        Yes I also noticed this when I was in CFM. Wanting the easy way out would be one reason, perhaps longing for control over their circumstances, longing for black and white answers (which we all want). My own thought at the time was that women were more emotionally-susceptible and more receptive to "the presence of the Holy Spirit" (which I'd now consider simply an emotional high due to the church atmosphere). Ever notice how many super-spiritual women there are in churches? Prophetesses, female deliverance ministers, those with a gift of healing, etc.
        It seems to parallel the wicca/new age craze. That scene is full of female witches, mediums, etc. And men are the minority. There's a small new age shop in my city that I get a kick out of visiting now and again. It always smells like incense and they've got rocks and crystals that are supposed to help all sorts of specific problems... kind of like Wayman Mitchell's magic spells... OOPS I mean his healing formulas. There's a resident female psychic there, and a girl behind the desk. Every time I go in, it's always full of women and rarely any guys. I suppose different sexes are susceptible to different things.

        Someone noted how ironic it is that religion attracts more women than men, yet it treats women the worst.

        Anyway, getting back on topic, I remember one lady in church that got saved like the second time she came. I always thought her husband would be a great christian, as he was a good, moral person. I figured he'd get saved pretty soon after she did. But even after 10 years, he never got saved. I could never figure out why. At the time I thought that since he was a man, he was trying to use his head and "logic" too much, and it was hindering him from experiencing Christ. Thinking back, I find it kind of funny that I thought his logic was stopping him from being a Christian. Don't be logical, just accept it! lol

        I thought about whether I would get saved if I was in his position. If I had never grown up in church, would I get saved if some PH person witnessed to me on the street? Telling me that Jesus Christ loved me so much that he died for my sins and rose again three days later? Even while I was in PH, I had to admit that I didn't think I'd fall for it. The sales pitch just sounded too weird.

      • kenhaining777
        rockstar said: [Although, my parents say they are proud of me, I feel the unspoken damage in the relationship. It is like we have to get to know one another
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 26, 2013
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          rockstar said:

          [Although, my parents say they are proud of me, I
          feel the unspoken damage in the relationship. It is like we have to get to know
          one another all over again, and that is the saddest part because we will share
          that emptiness and we can never "undo" the childhood damage of all the years I
          lost. I will always be held at that silly CFM "standard" even though I have
          surpassed many standards in life that are most important.]

          It is a contradiction of terms for your parents to be proud of you and still be in CFM.  If your parents go to the pastor for advice about you, he will probably tell them to acknowledge you to a point, express that they are proud of you, and treat you civilly.  The idea is that they should "leave the door open" for you to "repent."  I would be curious as to how they would be instructed to pray for you.  Generally the prayers they would be encouaged to engage in would involve praying for you to be "miserable in your sin."  Unless things have really changed, which is not the indications that I have had in recent times, that would be more or less the mind set that your parents will be in, or at least the mind set that the pastor will try and instill in them.  There can be no acknowledging that you are truly happy or at peace.  Otherwise, others might get the idea that they could leave have that same happiness and peace.   

          Another factor is if their pastor detects that you are on the internet blaspheming the Holy Fellowship of Waymanchrist.  There might be an interesting reaction to that and the pastor might tell your parents to make a stand against you, etc.  I am simply speculating, of course, and basing my thoughts on my experience with the Wayman O. fellowship.  I was in it for almost 20 years, and joined when it had about 5 churches.  So, I know the core beliefs pretty well. 

          I wonder if your parents compare how you are doing with how the others who were raised in the fellowship are doing, who have stayed in the church?  It would be hard for them to reconcile the fact that, in almost all cases, you are doing far better than the church kids who are now young adults.  That is why they would preach about the "false blessing" and say that it is only for a season.  As one Waymanite put it, referring to those who were happy in other churches, "the flesh is smiling."  The pastors would tend to also look at someone like yourself as being falsely happy.  In their minds, you are going to wake up one day and realize that you are living in darkness and are empty inside.  After that doesn't happen over the years, your parents may have a wake up call. 

          Thanks for taking the time to write here again.  It has been an interesting read. 

          Shalom
          Ken




        • kenhaining777
          rockstar said: [BTW I noticed the slim-pickings deal with the men. What s up with that? There are more women than men, because the women want the easy way out.
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 26, 2013
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            rockstar said:

            [BTW I noticed the slim-pickings deal with the men. What's up with that? There are more women than men, because the women want the easy way out. All they need is a dingy husband in CFM to fall for their super religiousity and they are set for life, or so they think.]

            Women got married to get "sent out."  That was dumb.  And guys, who were looking to get sent out, were the ones getting married, because you had to be married to be sent out.  There were 2 single guys sent out in the early days, and they got married fairly quickly after they began to "pastor."  But it was decided by Wayman and the boys that they wouldn't do that again.  I was one of the few who was made assistant pastor while I was single, and I was quickly the most popular single guy in the church, which was running about 450 people at the time.  It was amazing how many girls were walking up to me and being super friendly.  I got married 3 months after I was made assistant to the girl who had brought me into the church 4 and a half years earlier, who I had dated on and off over the years, and had previously asked to marry me.  I'll leave it at that.  

            On another note, Larry Nevelle had a church in Phoenix, and our music group would go up there to do the music scene from time to time.  At that time, in the late 70s, he had 35 single men in the church, and only 3 single girls.  I talked to one of the girls and she told me that it was intense with being asked out by all these guys at once.  We had two young girls in the music group, and these guys were on them hornets.  One of the girls asked me to hold her hand and act like her boyfriend so they would stop.

            The whole idea that you are restricted to these men and women in the fellowship as the only ones that you can marry "in the will of God" leads to some pretty weird marriages.  It got really strange in some of the smaller, isolated churches.  Young people were literally being manipulated into marriages that never, ever would have happened outside that convoluted fellowship.

            Shalom
            Ken



          • mark
            Vey well spoken..and I am glad you are free. I was there for 22 years of my life...I have long since removed myself.from thr snares of Guilt and shame. I
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 18, 2013
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              Vey well spoken..and I am glad you are free. I was there for 22 years of my life...I have long since removed myself.from thr snares of Guilt and shame. I have no regrets...only that i spent ( But Chose ) to spend time in the prison cell of CFM. IKnew for along time that there was something wrong but figured it was me and that I need ti "get right". My faith in God is stronger yhan ever..I Myself do nor attend church on a weeklly basis .( I Idon't think the church was set up ythis way) to where we spend every living breathing moment of our lives in church....it's insanity . I am glad you are out..But please .Dont toss God to the side. Look at this as a learning expireinxce and realize that the deivl took you on a ride that youthough was going to be fun and exciting. Asking Jesus to forgive my sins was the best thing I ever did. Walk with confidence and pride and "thank God you found your way out.You can live in Freedom not bondage.

              May blessings come you way. Congrats you have chose to live BETTER. Not BITTER!

              from an old CFM'er mark Baker ...aka..imalivngud


              -- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "rockstar645" <rockstar645@...> wrote:
              >
              > just wanted to thank you for having this message board out there for ex-members or members who are questioning, curious about leaving or have already left. I am writing because I want to support this group in their effort to warn those who are considering spending the rest of their life in that mess of a church organization. These posts have really confirmed every doubt I ever suspected that something is really wrong with the Potters House. I noticed that you were interested in what it is like for someone who grew up all their life in the PH, and I am a former PH pastor's kid who experienced it firsthand and it really is as bad as it is described here. From what my brothers and I experienced, it was senseless, useless doctrine to be raised under and the fellowship was the cause of so much dysfunction during my childhood that had to do with the way my siblings received unnecessary and ineffective discipline. The brainwashed-beyond-repair PH members who made their own decision to be there are different from their children who had no choice. Many PH kids may or may not agree with my perspective, but I think that is because they don't know another reality and are too sheltered to have any comparison of what their life would really be like "in the world". It is true that it is difficult to function in real life if you really believe what PH teaches. They think that their way is the only way to live because it is all they know when all it really comes down to is trusting your own reason and common sense, which is hard to do if you are either not in your right mind, insecure, vulnerable, naive, uncertain, questioning... if you are in a place like this, PH would like to take advantage of it and sign you up for life, and teach your kids and family to become co-dependent on church and the pastor. Be prepared for a life where you allow the pastor to make you feel guilty about things you should not feel guilty for. When you raise your kids with the intention of them having a better life than you did, the answer is not the Potter's House. It is one big scam. I really am sharing my experience out of pity for others who were raised and had to endure this kind of childhood and to say that you are not alone and I hope you all get out and move past what happened and live successful, happy lives of your own without having to be miserable and waste all your life in a church you were forced into by your parents. I might add that most of my family are still there with their spiritual blindfolds on since the 70s and 80s, and it hasn't done them much good besides being a waste of time and energy. So this may all be in vain but if it warns even one person, then I guess I haven't wasted my time with this.
              >
              > My dad pastored a CFM church for 10 years that only experienced only one growth spurt beyond about 100-150 people for a 6 month period. Then it trickled back down to about 20 people within a year and only half would show up for service... It was a really sad effort and I saw my parents frustration and anger that there weren't any new members or that somehow we were all doing something wrong because the church wasn't successful. If they couldn't get people to come to church and live a life the way the church wants them to then all of a sudden the mother church points a finger at the pastor, and they will make some irrational excuse to disrupt the pastor's life as "punishment" for their church not being successful. There is no real source for the guidance they give on how to raise kids or have a marriage or anything; pastors pull advice out of their ass using a cookie-cutter approach for counseling that one size fits all, that the next person is no different from the last - everyone is perverted, sinful and their whole family is going to hell unless they do what the pastor says. They use reverse psychology and say you can leave any time you want, but the pastors have extreme disdain for those who leave and they do get really hurt and bitter over it, even though they won't admit it, and that is why they address rebellion so much because they know that people really think about leaving and they will. I have heard pastors the way they talk about people in the church as if it were their only entertainment like they are describing a soap opera and instead of dealing with each individual question in a professional, confidential way, they go around bragging about how they gave someone a dose of the truth, which is always the same medicine - prayer and an earful of PH prescriptions - blame the devil, the TV, the Idols in your home, some bad spirit your or your kid has, the clothes you wear, etc. What happens behind closed doors in counseling sessions does not stay there by the way. CFMers ignore the accounts of people who leave and are doing well for themselves. You will only hear the bad things that happen - in fact, most of the stories are made up as scare tactics to keep members around. Anyone who has heard from a CFM minister that it is ok to leave probably should leave immediately for their own good and the good of their family. I am embarrassed for those with weak minds who actually believe the pastors. It isn't difficult to make their sermons up if you learn the rhetoric and follow them around learning mannerisms and pretty soon you will be a good clone and make it successful in the fellowship. The decisions that are made for you by your pastor are usually never in the best interest of your family, decisions are made in the best interest of the organization and the pastor so he can take all the credit for you being where you are. The main focus was on recruitment of impressionable, young people who have nothing else going for them, and who didn't have anyone with enough sense to raise them right, give them a good life or someone didn't care enough to get them away from this dangerous cult. Needless to say, all of the bad decisons my parents made while parenting were because of this awful church. Most of my spankings/beatings were because I didn't stay awake in church or because I listened to non-Christian music or because I snuck out to watch cartoons at my relative's house. My eldest brother got the worst end of the stick because he was sent to Santa Fe boot camp. The poor guy came back with horror stories that frightened me so much and my parents would threaten to send me there if I didn't get "right" with God. He had it the worst and I'm sorry to say he is still struggling to recover from CFM abusive parenting methods.What it really came down to was how much we could get away with behind my parents back and being afraid to piss them off all the time, and it isn't hard to piss off your parents if you are the unlucky child of a psycho-brainwashed PH member. But it isn't healthy if all you do is make your kids afraid of you. If your a PH Kid you learn the ropes really well. It doesn't take a spiritual experience to know you can pretend having the holy spirit, eebie jeebies, and faking the whole speaking in tongues routine. I passed my parent's judgment by faking it: going and taking a nap at the alter call, pretending to knock on doors while passing out flyers at outreach and just saying no one was home, and all of it was very exhausting but I survived having the sense to know it wasn't forever and using my mind to study, educate/inform myself to get far away from that life.
              >
              > My parents used to get really upset if we didn't "witness" to our friends at school and they always accused us of being sinful and worldly if we didn't bring our friends to church. You could hear the desperation for converts and the frustration that comes with being disappointed over people who eventually leave. The only loss really was the relationship with my parents didn't have much substance other than how they defined it according to fellowship standards. It is like they lost any identity of their own outside the church. The CFM pastors are self-centered and they only do what they do for their own glory; You and your family are only a number/resource to them. They say God saved you and God is moving in your life, when there is no quantifiable evidence to justify that. They will make people think that they "owe" the church and pastor something for realizing this awakening belief, when in reality, the "saved" individual is the only one putting the effort and making the decision to change their own life, yet the PH enjoys takes all the credit for "changed lives, " when really all that happened was your life changed because you actually became sober and got a job and a family, not because your pastor did it for you or because you went to church or even because you believe in God. I remind my parents all the time that I am where I am because of what love they gave me, they were the ones who caught me when I fell, comforted me and wiped my tears when I cried, who were there for me in my house growing up, not the church, not the idiot pastor we had or anybody else. I give them positive credit because I am tired of the fellowship telling them they were bad parents by their fellowship peers telling them that their grown adult children aren't serving god. My parents being severely brainwashed and stripped of all self-esteem by "headship" somehow think that they failed when I left the church and that I was cursing myself because I left. It was painful when my own brother and father called me a whore to my face because I had a non-Christian boyfriend who wasn't in church, but I can tellyou he treated me with alot more respect than any guy I ever met in any PH church. If you are a woman in the PH church, you are second-class citizen - all you are good for is marrying their disciple goons and making babies. Your biggest dream will be to become a pastor's wife... If your husband fucks up with headship, then they will hire your lawyer for the divorce, move you out of state and assign you another husband. Too bad most members are too stupid to fight for their rights in court. If your husband has more time for church than he has to spend time with you and your kids, you will make it in CFM. I'm glad I married a guy who promised me we will never join any church, ever! As time went on, I made my own life and I've come very far from where I started with nothing and all of my family cut me off for a good six months before my family started calling me again and coming around. I'm educated, working on a professional degree, independent, going places, happily married (to a non-CFMer, very supportive family man), free and making more annual income than both my parents combined, and now that I am in a good place in life, my family is no longer ashamed, and they don't have any problem taking the credit for raising me, funny! But even though they are confused how this could happen, how could I be doing fine without the church? their only logical justification for it is that I'm blessed because they pray for me. Somehow they find a way to give the PH credit for the positive. I've even challenged them not to pray for me and see what happens, but that is kind of cruel because psychologically they can't disattach themself from justifying anything that isn't fellowship-based or they can't believe any phenomenon that can't be explained by a CFM pastor...
              >
              > The church requires members to stand up and give a testimony if anything positive happens to them because they want you to believe it wasn't you that made these things happen, God did. This enforces their method of taking all the credit for things you've done on your own. If anything bad happens like getting sick or losing your job, It is always something that ends up being your fault that you didn't do something right: maybe you didn't punish your kids enough, maybe you aren't having enough outreaches or revivals or seminars or concerts, maybe you have a demon spirit etc., either way you are a still sinning and they will hold it over your head and torture you by saying that nothing good is happening because of some hidden sin or something you are doing wrong when usually its because you are so stressed and spending so much time going to church, giving money and not focusing on your own life goals and dreams. If you want blessing and success in life, you have to put in the work for it, no one can do it for you. Not even God. You are wasting your time hanging out with people from the Door / PH. Its going to drag you down if you give your tithes for so long and go to church so much and then no financial blessing ever happens. Imagine if you saved 10% of your income every year and put it into your retirement account. Imagine what your blessings would be like 30 years from now. Or you can end up like my parents who are still going and believing for a miracle and it hasn't done a damn thing besides give them a story of how they no longer drink alcohol, party or smoke pot when the last time they did that was in high school. It's nice that they want to inspire others to make lifestyle changes, but it should not include signing your life away and replacing a miserable life with an even more miserable one in which you will toil and suffer just as much. It's like believing in magic or gambling. To the people who still believe the nonsense spouted over the pulpit and putting their time and energy into the CFM machine will get them anywhere in life, you are in for a BIG disappointment. I know this because of my parents testimony (parrot story) how they got saved and turned their lives around in the 70s before I was even born. But now there is nothing to show for it... besides me and my siblings of course ;) I have nothing but pity for all those people still at CFM because they are letting themselves struggle for a belief, for friendships that aren't based on anything besides being Christian, and for CFM pastors who don't care about them, their future, their well-being; All CFM pastors and bogus "leaders" care about you for is that you fill a chair, get your life together, go to conference, get married and keep a steady income flowing into that offering pot so that they can save their name when they send the reports back to the mother church.You are only there to make your pastor look good and to help him climb the CFM hierarchy of pastor-status and you give him bragging rights so maybe one day, if he's good enough he can preach at a conference or maybe he can introduce his daughter to a stellar disciple at a conference instead of putting his time and energy into getting his kids into college and giving his family a good life, something most CFMers can't even imagine - living a good quality of life of their own. They send men to men's discipleship and tell these guys they are teaching them how to be a man when most of the men are losers in real life who can't even score a good wife on their own, especially one who isn't already brainwashed, housebroken or "saved" into their system, whatever they call it. They leave these men on their own and encourage the wives not to work so they will be even more co-dependent on their spouse. I know many guys who are desperate for wives but they consider themselves above all the women in the church because no one will meet their "high" standards. The most you can look forward to is getting a spouse who is an ex-junkie, ex-convict or someone who doesn't have an opportunity to advance in a real life outside their fellowship where all they learning is to become a clone of their pastor and even worse, their pastor's wife. And then once you are stuck married with someone who has that kind of baggage, then you won't be allowed to go to a real professional for counseling, and you can look forward to a real dysfunctional, stressed out, happy time had by all. Somehow with all this, you think you are helping other people by encouraging them to live that life with you.
              >
              > If you stay, you will never know what legitimate love, loyalty, friendships, family life or self-esteem is like without some fake "authority" figure without credentials, a pastor coaching you on what to do and setting you up for failure, wasted time, displaced relationships, and wasted money. A real man, in my belief, will do anything for the good of his family and makes his own moral-based decisions to that regard, but in the fellowship; they don't teach you to care about your family. They teach men that it is enough that they keep their family in church, which is a laboratory of disaster for raising children. Do your kids a favor, and be nice to them! Send them to private schools, save money for their future, health insurance, and invest into the well-being of your own family, give them the opportunity to meet a good life-partner who is truly successful because they will be there for you in the end, not the fellowship. That will help them more than the fellowship ever will...Most fellowship members can't even imagine a decent life beyond poverty and bourgeois mediocrity, unless you are Mitchell or one of his cronies, you will never know a life beyond your current socio-economic status. The fellowship leaves their pastors high and dry. Many of them are barely making it to get by if the congregation isn't putting any money in the offering. If you haven't learned the art of deceit and con-artistry, you will pray and pray and pray and the church still won't give money and your life won't change unless you get out, grow a pair, and make some positive decisions for yourself. Twenty years later, you will find yourself worn-out, hoping your ministry status has improved, with children to feed and your wife siding with your pastor because you aren't doing something right... if you aren't successful and strong enough to get your own family to love you and stay loyal, you can grovel to headship and only hope you aren't deeply co-dependent on your CFM friends to the point you are so stressed about getting kicked out to the curb for a silly reason or that they don't turn your own family against you and encourage your spouse to divorce you instead of working things out. Everything I was taught in the fellowship was useless to me in the real world by the way. My parents are good, hard-working people who were scammed into a terrible way of life, they will never leave the fellowship and that they made that choice on their own is all I that I ever regret. My siblings and I are now their retirement plan and good thing we stuck around for them since Jesus never came back and took them in the rapture like they had hoped. Good thing I am a humanist and I believe in genuine tolerance and respect for all who have different beliefs than mine, or my lack of belief. Whatever gets you through to your happy place. But please, take this as a warning and dont get suckered into going to the silly door or ph, for the sake of your own future sanity and for the sake of your children if you have any. It really is a place for the hopeless!!!!!!!!! Just get out now and RUN!
              >
            • rockstar645
              I am not the kind of person who goes around sharing what I believe or don t believe with others, nor am I the kind of person who tries to influence others what
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 20, 2013
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                I am not the kind of person who goes around sharing what I believe or don't believe with others, nor am I the kind of person who tries to influence others what to believe. Sharing what I know, or my thoughts on religion on an online message board is really not in my nature or character, but the only reason I believe in exposing the fellowship is because I truly believe this CFM organization is harmful, destructive and has caused a lot of emotional pain and suffering for many good people who don't deserve the harsh treatment dished out by the fellowship. I want to help others see that there is more out there than living in a miserable cult or even being a part of it and that is all. This is not something I'm not happy to do, but I am willing to do it even if it helps one person have the confidence to get out. If I am ever hesitant to write anything about my experience is because I knew eventually someone would make this kind of a remark, implying that I intend to "toss God to the side." So I'm going to be completely honest about my lack of belief. In my journey to becoming free, I had to put God in a special category in my mind where I put aliens, fairies, leprechauns or Santa. I want to believe in such myths that bring miracles and magic, but until I see proof, I won't believe it as part of my reality. To truly live without fear, I quit worrying about things I have no control over and wasting my time with useless beliefs. Some people are convinced that unbelievers cannot be moral, but that is not true. I believe in things that are real and tangible and that have worked for me because to me that is all we have. Believing in God, while helpful for some, has not really done much good in my life but cause for a lot of disappointment, hurt, and made me expect miraculous things from life that will never happen. One being, ironically, that those I love will see the light and leave the fellowship. I've learned to survive without Christianity and now I find myself not only surviving, but living a good life I never imagined. Belief in things I know to be real are what drive me to wake up every day, that make me happy and I enjoy knowing I can make others smile just simply by practicing kindness has made me enjoy life in ways I never imagined possible. By abandoning my belief in the God of the Bible, I have been able to recognize that having a Christianity is not the only kind of spirituality that works. I truly want the best for others, even those who are still in the fellowship, and whatever spirituality helps people solve their own problems. These are the things that have gotten me through every single hard time in my life – love, humanity, positive energy, compassion– these are things I believe in because I know them to be real and to work. The compassion of others who are not Christian has been my saving grace. As someone growing up in the PH, it wasn't easy to abandon all religious beliefs I had been indoctrinated with, even the ones that seem very moral. But I've always had a hard time accepting many of the moral decisions that God condoned, especially in the New Testament, as being very primitive (i.e. rape, war, intolerance, adultery etc.). I still feel like there are some things that God should not forgive (i.e. the story of King David and Bathsheba). I felt the God of the Hebrews is all about condemnation, judgment, fear, war, favoritism, anti-feminist etc. and that this energy is carried over into Christian evangelical/ fundamentalist belief, where the bible is taken literally and can easily be manipulated to produce negative results– control, fear, abuse, etc. Why should I believe in this God and not the others that have been created on the globe? What makes this diety so superior and what makes him more civilized than the rest? Why would a loving, Christian God expect/demand so much praise and gratitude, much less time and money? To feed his ego? I believe in morality as the way we live our lives relative to the peace we maintain with others; how civilly I treat others should matter more than questioning what they believe in. I know that intent is what is really important when it comes to morality, and to me that is where leaders in the fellowship's upper echelon go wrong. They know what they are doing is destroying lives, and they do it anyway. To me, that is the root of evil – knowing what you are doing wrong and doing something with the intent to inflict hurt, pain, revenge, greed, envy, etc., and for what reason? just to feel powerful? and really, if karma is real it will come back to hurt them or so we can only hope. But maybe it will just mean simply that evil is real and evil choices trickles down the hierarchy and hurts a lot of people, and all we can do is live life satisfied that we are not a part of that anymore. Some, in the fellowship are truly naïve and I believe that they are fooled and they don't know the extent of the harm the organization produces because they can't see past their own little world, and while their intent to help others is good, this kind of help they offer isn't really effective. I've run into people from the fellowship and they will tell me that my life is not worth anything without God, and I will always be missing something if I don't go back to church, blah, blah, blah, and that is all they have to offer. I just say how? What am I really missing? And they don't know how to respond because there is no quantifiable evidence that their life is so much better than mine. What does it really mean to be in or out of God's will? There is no answer. I kindly tell these people that I don't have time to listen to that or argue about it because I don't believe in it, and maybe if I did I would listen. To me, the devil can't hurt you if you don't believe in him just like monsters under the bed can't hurt you once you outgrow your belief in them. What I know to be more effective, are the results of conscious decisions made by individuals. Maybe good things happen to people who make productive choices with the right intent, and everything in life happens as a result of someone's decisions based on whatever their intent and the work they put in or how they choose to cope in response to occurrences that are out of their control (i.e. illness, loss, etc.). From my understanding, belief in God is not enough. There are no such things as curses. I understand that this is belief and scare tactics are all the people in the fellowship have to offer, and I don't need that kind of help. It isn't going to make me a better person or help me make better choices. I have reconciled my non-belief and I am at peace. I figure if God is real, then ok I'll allow "him" to take the credit for all the blessings I have, but I shouldn't have to acknowledge him, and why would he pick on me, someone so much smaller, for it and send me to hell? I don't have time, nor the energy to concern myself with ideas of what may or may not happen after I die because no one will ever know. Why would I believe that my growth process was just the "devil taking me for a ride I thought I would enjoy"? I had no control over what happened to me then. I could play the victim and blame the devil, but I don't believe in giving a diety or mythological figure the credit for any decision I've made in my life, or any decision anyone else made for me – I believe in people taking responsibility for themselves, and when they can't live with themselves and all their "sin", maybe they really do need to believe in God in order to cope. I once heard an intelligent man say it is almost like religious people are so miserable maybe with their own life and their regret, guilt and bad choices that they really just want to escape reality since they can't make their life better, they hope for death so that they can go to heaven where it is going to be better and happy and peaceful. The sad part is that many fall into beliefs and dedicate themselves to religion not knowing that it will be their downfall in the end. I always thought why do we have to look forward to a place where there is no war only after we die? Why not make peace with others and yourself and live a happy life now? Why wait until you get to heaven? I noticed that in the fellowship, when the congregation prayed almost begging for Jesus to come back and save them from persecution on earth and this "us-against-them" mentality created paranoia, superstition and the ill effects of religion, and maybe it really is the poor man's religion, waiting for treasures in heaven? Here are people hoping and praying to just end it all. But what if there is no heaven? What will it all mean in the end? How would that change the way Christians value their own lives and live knowing that every moment is more valuable than we think and that life cannot be taken for granted, just because we think we are going to live forever in heaven one day. When I walked away from the fellowship, it was hard to write everything off as "a learning experience." To keep my belief in God would have kept me in the dark my whole life. I would never be truly free because I would not be able to envision a life beyond the context of God, Jesus and the bible. I have accepted the fact that religion, God, myths, are man-made beliefs that were necessary in a primitive time as our consciousness developed and maybe moral control was necessary then, maybe not. Maybe it was all about our primitive nature – seeking power and control, social status, etc.. I will say religion contributed to our evolutionary development, but not by much. I ended the connection between god and spirituality in my life. I accept whatever spirituality that makes me embrace freedom on a daily basis, but I can't accept one God over another. I have stopped believing in God, as a male diety that wants his ego fed constantly and requires constant praise. If God is real, he wouldn't want us to suffer, why would he choose for me to live in the snares of the guilt, fear and shame and the devil so early in my life as part of his plan? It just doesn't make any sense and I just can't waste my time with believing that is all my purpose is about.

                --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "mark" <imalivngud@...> wrote:
                >
                > Vey well spoken..and I am glad you are free. I was there for 22 years of my life...I have long since removed myself.from thr snares of Guilt and shame. I have no regrets...only that i spent ( But Chose ) to spend time in the prison cell of CFM. IKnew for along time that there was something wrong but figured it was me and that I need ti "get right". My faith in God is stronger yhan ever..I Myself do nor attend church on a weeklly basis .( I Idon't think the church was set up ythis way) to where we spend every living breathing moment of our lives in church....it's insanity . I am glad you are out..But please .Dont toss God to the side. Look at this as a learning expireinxce and realize that the deivl took you on a ride that youthough was going to be fun and exciting. Asking Jesus to forgive my sins was the best thing I ever did. Walk with confidence and pride and "thank God you found your way out.You can live in Freedom not bondage.
                >
                > May blessings come you way. Congrats you have chose to live BETTER. Not BITTER!
                >
                > from an old CFM'er mark Baker ...aka..imalivngud
                >
                >
                > -- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "rockstar645" <rockstar645@> wrote:
                > >
                > > just wanted to thank you for having this message board out there for ex-members or members who are questioning, curious about leaving or have already left. I am writing because I want to support this group in their effort to warn those who are considering spending the rest of their life in that mess of a church organization. These posts have really confirmed every doubt I ever suspected that something is really wrong with the Potters House. I noticed that you were interested in what it is like for someone who grew up all their life in the PH, and I am a former PH pastor's kid who experienced it firsthand and it really is as bad as it is described here. From what my brothers and I experienced, it was senseless, useless doctrine to be raised under and the fellowship was the cause of so much dysfunction during my childhood that had to do with the way my siblings received unnecessary and ineffective discipline. The brainwashed-beyond-repair PH members who made their own decision to be there are different from their children who had no choice. Many PH kids may or may not agree with my perspective, but I think that is because they don't know another reality and are too sheltered to have any comparison of what their life would really be like "in the world". It is true that it is difficult to function in real life if you really believe what PH teaches. They think that their way is the only way to live because it is all they know when all it really comes down to is trusting your own reason and common sense, which is hard to do if you are either not in your right mind, insecure, vulnerable, naive, uncertain, questioning... if you are in a place like this, PH would like to take advantage of it and sign you up for life, and teach your kids and family to become co-dependent on church and the pastor. Be prepared for a life where you allow the pastor to make you feel guilty about things you should not feel guilty for. When you raise your kids with the intention of them having a better life than you did, the answer is not the Potter's House. It is one big scam. I really am sharing my experience out of pity for others who were raised and had to endure this kind of childhood and to say that you are not alone and I hope you all get out and move past what happened and live successful, happy lives of your own without having to be miserable and waste all your life in a church you were forced into by your parents. I might add that most of my family are still there with their spiritual blindfolds on since the 70s and 80s, and it hasn't done them much good besides being a waste of time and energy. So this may all be in vain but if it warns even one person, then I guess I haven't wasted my time with this.
                > >
                > > My dad pastored a CFM church for 10 years that only experienced only one growth spurt beyond about 100-150 people for a 6 month period. Then it trickled back down to about 20 people within a year and only half would show up for service... It was a really sad effort and I saw my parents frustration and anger that there weren't any new members or that somehow we were all doing something wrong because the church wasn't successful. If they couldn't get people to come to church and live a life the way the church wants them to then all of a sudden the mother church points a finger at the pastor, and they will make some irrational excuse to disrupt the pastor's life as "punishment" for their church not being successful. There is no real source for the guidance they give on how to raise kids or have a marriage or anything; pastors pull advice out of their ass using a cookie-cutter approach for counseling that one size fits all, that the next person is no different from the last - everyone is perverted, sinful and their whole family is going to hell unless they do what the pastor says. They use reverse psychology and say you can leave any time you want, but the pastors have extreme disdain for those who leave and they do get really hurt and bitter over it, even though they won't admit it, and that is why they address rebellion so much because they know that people really think about leaving and they will. I have heard pastors the way they talk about people in the church as if it were their only entertainment like they are describing a soap opera and instead of dealing with each individual question in a professional, confidential way, they go around bragging about how they gave someone a dose of the truth, which is always the same medicine - prayer and an earful of PH prescriptions - blame the devil, the TV, the Idols in your home, some bad spirit your or your kid has, the clothes you wear, etc. What happens behind closed doors in counseling sessions does not stay there by the way. CFMers ignore the accounts of people who leave and are doing well for themselves. You will only hear the bad things that happen - in fact, most of the stories are made up as scare tactics to keep members around. Anyone who has heard from a CFM minister that it is ok to leave probably should leave immediately for their own good and the good of their family. I am embarrassed for those with weak minds who actually believe the pastors. It isn't difficult to make their sermons up if you learn the rhetoric and follow them around learning mannerisms and pretty soon you will be a good clone and make it successful in the fellowship. The decisions that are made for you by your pastor are usually never in the best interest of your family, decisions are made in the best interest of the organization and the pastor so he can take all the credit for you being where you are. The main focus was on recruitment of impressionable, young people who have nothing else going for them, and who didn't have anyone with enough sense to raise them right, give them a good life or someone didn't care enough to get them away from this dangerous cult. Needless to say, all of the bad decisons my parents made while parenting were because of this awful church. Most of my spankings/beatings were because I didn't stay awake in church or because I listened to non-Christian music or because I snuck out to watch cartoons at my relative's house. My eldest brother got the worst end of the stick because he was sent to Santa Fe boot camp. The poor guy came back with horror stories that frightened me so much and my parents would threaten to send me there if I didn't get "right" with God. He had it the worst and I'm sorry to say he is still struggling to recover from CFM abusive parenting methods.What it really came down to was how much we could get away with behind my parents back and being afraid to piss them off all the time, and it isn't hard to piss off your parents if you are the unlucky child of a psycho-brainwashed PH member. But it isn't healthy if all you do is make your kids afraid of you. If your a PH Kid you learn the ropes really well. It doesn't take a spiritual experience to know you can pretend having the holy spirit, eebie jeebies, and faking the whole speaking in tongues routine. I passed my parent's judgment by faking it: going and taking a nap at the alter call, pretending to knock on doors while passing out flyers at outreach and just saying no one was home, and all of it was very exhausting but I survived having the sense to know it wasn't forever and using my mind to study, educate/inform myself to get far away from that life.
                > >
                > > My parents used to get really upset if we didn't "witness" to our friends at school and they always accused us of being sinful and worldly if we didn't bring our friends to church. You could hear the desperation for converts and the frustration that comes with being disappointed over people who eventually leave. The only loss really was the relationship with my parents didn't have much substance other than how they defined it according to fellowship standards. It is like they lost any identity of their own outside the church. The CFM pastors are self-centered and they only do what they do for their own glory; You and your family are only a number/resource to them. They say God saved you and God is moving in your life, when there is no quantifiable evidence to justify that. They will make people think that they "owe" the church and pastor something for realizing this awakening belief, when in reality, the "saved" individual is the only one putting the effort and making the decision to change their own life, yet the PH enjoys takes all the credit for "changed lives, " when really all that happened was your life changed because you actually became sober and got a job and a family, not because your pastor did it for you or because you went to church or even because you believe in God. I remind my parents all the time that I am where I am because of what love they gave me, they were the ones who caught me when I fell, comforted me and wiped my tears when I cried, who were there for me in my house growing up, not the church, not the idiot pastor we had or anybody else. I give them positive credit because I am tired of the fellowship telling them they were bad parents by their fellowship peers telling them that their grown adult children aren't serving god. My parents being severely brainwashed and stripped of all self-esteem by "headship" somehow think that they failed when I left the church and that I was cursing myself because I left. It was painful when my own brother and father called me a whore to my face because I had a non-Christian boyfriend who wasn't in church, but I can tellyou he treated me with alot more respect than any guy I ever met in any PH church. If you are a woman in the PH church, you are second-class citizen - all you are good for is marrying their disciple goons and making babies. Your biggest dream will be to become a pastor's wife... If your husband fucks up with headship, then they will hire your lawyer for the divorce, move you out of state and assign you another husband. Too bad most members are too stupid to fight for their rights in court. If your husband has more time for church than he has to spend time with you and your kids, you will make it in CFM. I'm glad I married a guy who promised me we will never join any church, ever! As time went on, I made my own life and I've come very far from where I started with nothing and all of my family cut me off for a good six months before my family started calling me again and coming around. I'm educated, working on a professional degree, independent, going places, happily married (to a non-CFMer, very supportive family man), free and making more annual income than both my parents combined, and now that I am in a good place in life, my family is no longer ashamed, and they don't have any problem taking the credit for raising me, funny! But even though they are confused how this could happen, how could I be doing fine without the church? their only logical justification for it is that I'm blessed because they pray for me. Somehow they find a way to give the PH credit for the positive. I've even challenged them not to pray for me and see what happens, but that is kind of cruel because psychologically they can't disattach themself from justifying anything that isn't fellowship-based or they can't believe any phenomenon that can't be explained by a CFM pastor...
                > >
                > > The church requires members to stand up and give a testimony if anything positive happens to them because they want you to believe it wasn't you that made these things happen, God did. This enforces their method of taking all the credit for things you've done on your own. If anything bad happens like getting sick or losing your job, It is always something that ends up being your fault that you didn't do something right: maybe you didn't punish your kids enough, maybe you aren't having enough outreaches or revivals or seminars or concerts, maybe you have a demon spirit etc., either way you are a still sinning and they will hold it over your head and torture you by saying that nothing good is happening because of some hidden sin or something you are doing wrong when usually its because you are so stressed and spending so much time going to church, giving money and not focusing on your own life goals and dreams. If you want blessing and success in life, you have to put in the work for it, no one can do it for you. Not even God. You are wasting your time hanging out with people from the Door / PH. Its going to drag you down if you give your tithes for so long and go to church so much and then no financial blessing ever happens. Imagine if you saved 10% of your income every year and put it into your retirement account. Imagine what your blessings would be like 30 years from now. Or you can end up like my parents who are still going and believing for a miracle and it hasn't done a damn thing besides give them a story of how they no longer drink alcohol, party or smoke pot when the last time they did that was in high school. It's nice that they want to inspire others to make lifestyle changes, but it should not include signing your life away and replacing a miserable life with an even more miserable one in which you will toil and suffer just as much. It's like believing in magic or gambling. To the people who still believe the nonsense spouted over the pulpit and putting their time and energy into the CFM machine will get them anywhere in life, you are in for a BIG disappointment. I know this because of my parents testimony (parrot story) how they got saved and turned their lives around in the 70s before I was even born. But now there is nothing to show for it... besides me and my siblings of course ;) I have nothing but pity for all those people still at CFM because they are letting themselves struggle for a belief, for friendships that aren't based on anything besides being Christian, and for CFM pastors who don't care about them, their future, their well-being; All CFM pastors and bogus "leaders" care about you for is that you fill a chair, get your life together, go to conference, get married and keep a steady income flowing into that offering pot so that they can save their name when they send the reports back to the mother church.You are only there to make your pastor look good and to help him climb the CFM hierarchy of pastor-status and you give him bragging rights so maybe one day, if he's good enough he can preach at a conference or maybe he can introduce his daughter to a stellar disciple at a conference instead of putting his time and energy into getting his kids into college and giving his family a good life, something most CFMers can't even imagine - living a good quality of life of their own. They send men to men's discipleship and tell these guys they are teaching them how to be a man when most of the men are losers in real life who can't even score a good wife on their own, especially one who isn't already brainwashed, housebroken or "saved" into their system, whatever they call it. They leave these men on their own and encourage the wives not to work so they will be even more co-dependent on their spouse. I know many guys who are desperate for wives but they consider themselves above all the women in the church because no one will meet their "high" standards. The most you can look forward to is getting a spouse who is an ex-junkie, ex-convict or someone who doesn't have an opportunity to advance in a real life outside their fellowship where all they learning is to become a clone of their pastor and even worse, their pastor's wife. And then once you are stuck married with someone who has that kind of baggage, then you won't be allowed to go to a real professional for counseling, and you can look forward to a real dysfunctional, stressed out, happy time had by all. Somehow with all this, you think you are helping other people by encouraging them to live that life with you.
                > >
                > > If you stay, you will never know what legitimate love, loyalty, friendships, family life or self-esteem is like without some fake "authority" figure without credentials, a pastor coaching you on what to do and setting you up for failure, wasted time, displaced relationships, and wasted money. A real man, in my belief, will do anything for the good of his family and makes his own moral-based decisions to that regard, but in the fellowship; they don't teach you to care about your family. They teach men that it is enough that they keep their family in church, which is a laboratory of disaster for raising children. Do your kids a favor, and be nice to them! Send them to private schools, save money for their future, health insurance, and invest into the well-being of your own family, give them the opportunity to meet a good life-partner who is truly successful because they will be there for you in the end, not the fellowship. That will help them more than the fellowship ever will...Most fellowship members can't even imagine a decent life beyond poverty and bourgeois mediocrity, unless you are Mitchell or one of his cronies, you will never know a life beyond your current socio-economic status. The fellowship leaves their pastors high and dry. Many of them are barely making it to get by if the congregation isn't putting any money in the offering. If you haven't learned the art of deceit and con-artistry, you will pray and pray and pray and the church still won't give money and your life won't change unless you get out, grow a pair, and make some positive decisions for yourself. Twenty years later, you will find yourself worn-out, hoping your ministry status has improved, with children to feed and your wife siding with your pastor because you aren't doing something right... if you aren't successful and strong enough to get your own family to love you and stay loyal, you can grovel to headship and only hope you aren't deeply co-dependent on your CFM friends to the point you are so stressed about getting kicked out to the curb for a silly reason or that they don't turn your own family against you and encourage your spouse to divorce you instead of working things out. Everything I was taught in the fellowship was useless to me in the real world by the way. My parents are good, hard-working people who were scammed into a terrible way of life, they will never leave the fellowship and that they made that choice on their own is all I that I ever regret. My siblings and I are now their retirement plan and good thing we stuck around for them since Jesus never came back and took them in the rapture like they had hoped. Good thing I am a humanist and I believe in genuine tolerance and respect for all who have different beliefs than mine, or my lack of belief. Whatever gets you through to your happy place. But please, take this as a warning and dont get suckered into going to the silly door or ph, for the sake of your own future sanity and for the sake of your children if you have any. It really is a place for the hopeless!!!!!!!!! Just get out now and RUN!
                > >
                >
              • cigarscoffeeandbeer
                Well said! ... don t believe with others, nor am I the kind of person who tries to influence others what to believe. Sharing what I know, or my thoughts on
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 20, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well said!

                  --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "rockstar645" <rockstar645@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I am not the kind of person who goes around sharing what I believe or don't believe with others, nor am I the kind of person who tries to influence others what to believe. Sharing what I know, or my thoughts on religion on an online message board is really not in my nature or character, but the only reason I believe in exposing the fellowship is because I truly believe this CFM organization is harmful, destructive and has caused a lot of emotional pain and suffering for many good people who don't deserve the harsh treatment dished out by the fellowship. I want to help others see that there is more out there than living in a miserable cult or even being a part of it and that is all. This is not something I'm not happy to do, but I am willing to do it even if it helps one person have the confidence to get out. If I am ever hesitant to write anything about my experience is because I knew eventually someone would make this kind of a remark, implying that I intend to "toss God to the side." So I'm going to be completely honest about my lack of belief. In my journey to becoming free, I had to put God in a special category in my mind where I put aliens, fairies, leprechauns or Santa. I want to believe in such myths that bring miracles and magic, but until I see proof, I won't believe it as part of my reality. To truly live without fear, I quit worrying about things I have no control over and wasting my time with useless beliefs. Some people are convinced that unbelievers cannot be moral, but that is not true. I believe in things that are real and tangible and that have worked for me because to me that is all we have. Believing in God, while helpful for some, has not really done much good in my life but cause for a lot of disappointment, hurt, and made me expect miraculous things from life that will never happen. One being, ironically, that those I love will see the light and leave the fellowship. I've learned to survive without Christianity and now I find myself not only surviving, but living a good life I never imagined. Belief in things I know to be real are what drive me to wake up every day, that make me happy and I enjoy knowing I can make others smile just simply by practicing kindness has made me enjoy life in ways I never imagined possible. By abandoning my belief in the God of the Bible, I have been able to recognize that having a Christianity is not the only kind of spirituality that works. I truly want the best for others, even those who are still in the fellowship, and whatever spirituality helps people solve their own problems. These are the things that have gotten me through every single hard time in my life – love, humanity, positive energy, compassion– these are things I believe in because I know them to be real and to work. The compassion of others who are not Christian has been my saving grace. As someone growing up in the PH, it wasn't easy to abandon all religious beliefs I had been indoctrinated with, even the ones that seem very moral. But I've always had a hard time accepting many of the moral decisions that God condoned, especially in the New Testament, as being very primitive (i.e. rape, war, intolerance, adultery etc.). I still feel like there are some things that God should not forgive (i.e. the story of King David and Bathsheba). I felt the God of the Hebrews is all about condemnation, judgment, fear, war, favoritism, anti-feminist etc. and that this energy is carried over into Christian evangelical/ fundamentalist belief, where the bible is taken literally and can easily be manipulated to produce negative results– control, fear, abuse, etc. Why should I believe in this God and not the others that have been created on the globe? What makes this diety so superior and what makes him more civilized than the rest? Why would a loving, Christian God expect/demand so much praise and gratitude, much less time and money? To feed his ego? I believe in morality as the way we live our lives relative to the peace we maintain with others; how civilly I treat others should matter more than questioning what they believe in. I know that intent is what is really important when it comes to morality, and to me that is where leaders in the fellowship's upper echelon go wrong. They know what they are doing is destroying lives, and they do it anyway. To me, that is the root of evil – knowing what you are doing wrong and doing something with the intent to inflict hurt, pain, revenge, greed, envy, etc., and for what reason? just to feel powerful? and really, if karma is real it will come back to hurt them or so we can only hope. But maybe it will just mean simply that evil is real and evil choices trickles down the hierarchy and hurts a lot of people, and all we can do is live life satisfied that we are not a part of that anymore. Some, in the fellowship are truly naïve and I believe that they are fooled and they don't know the extent of the harm the organization produces because they can't see past their own little world, and while their intent to help others is good, this kind of help they offer isn't really effective. I've run into people from the fellowship and they will tell me that my life is not worth anything without God, and I will always be missing something if I don't go back to church, blah, blah, blah, and that is all they have to offer. I just say how? What am I really missing? And they don't know how to respond because there is no quantifiable evidence that their life is so much better than mine. What does it really mean to be in or out of God's will? There is no answer. I kindly tell these people that I don't have time to listen to that or argue about it because I don't believe in it, and maybe if I did I would listen. To me, the devil can't hurt you if you don't believe in him just like monsters under the bed can't hurt you once you outgrow your belief in them. What I know to be more effective, are the results of conscious decisions made by individuals. Maybe good things happen to people who make productive choices with the right intent, and everything in life happens as a result of someone's decisions based on whatever their intent and the work they put in or how they choose to cope in response to occurrences that are out of their control (i.e. illness, loss, etc.). From my understanding, belief in God is not enough. There are no such things as curses. I understand that this is belief and scare tactics are all the people in the fellowship have to offer, and I don't need that kind of help. It isn't going to make me a better person or help me make better choices. I have reconciled my non-belief and I am at peace. I figure if God is real, then ok I'll allow "him" to take the credit for all the blessings I have, but I shouldn't have to acknowledge him, and why would he pick on me, someone so much smaller, for it and send me to hell? I don't have time, nor the energy to concern myself with ideas of what may or may not happen after I die because no one will ever know. Why would I believe that my growth process was just the "devil taking me for a ride I thought I would enjoy"? I had no control over what happened to me then. I could play the victim and blame the devil, but I don't believe in giving a diety or mythological figure the credit for any decision I've made in my life, or any decision anyone else made for me – I believe in people taking responsibility for themselves, and when they can't live with themselves and all their "sin", maybe they really do need to believe in God in order to cope. I once heard an intelligent man say it is almost like religious people are so miserable maybe with their own life and their regret, guilt and bad choices that they really just want to escape reality since they can't make their life better, they hope for death so that they can go to heaven where it is going to be better and happy and peaceful. The sad part is that many fall into beliefs and dedicate themselves to religion not knowing that it will be their downfall in the end. I always thought why do we have to look forward to a place where there is no war only after we die? Why not make peace with others and yourself and live a happy life now? Why wait until you get to heaven? I noticed that in the fellowship, when the congregation prayed almost begging for Jesus to come back and save them from persecution on earth and this "us-against-them" mentality created paranoia, superstition and the ill effects of religion, and maybe it really is the poor man's religion, waiting for treasures in heaven? Here are people hoping and praying to just end it all. But what if there is no heaven? What will it all mean in the end? How would that change the way Christians value their own lives and live knowing that every moment is more valuable than we think and that life cannot be taken for granted, just because we think we are going to live forever in heaven one day. When I walked away from the fellowship, it was hard to write everything off as "a learning experience." To keep my belief in God would have kept me in the dark my whole life. I would never be truly free because I would not be able to envision a life beyond the context of God, Jesus and the bible. I have accepted the fact that religion, God, myths, are man-made beliefs that were necessary in a primitive time as our consciousness developed and maybe moral control was necessary then, maybe not. Maybe it was all about our primitive nature – seeking power and control, social status, etc.. I will say religion contributed to our evolutionary development, but not by much. I ended the connection between god and spirituality in my life. I accept whatever spirituality that makes me embrace freedom on a daily basis, but I can't accept one God over another. I have stopped believing in God, as a male diety that wants his ego fed constantly and requires constant praise. If God is real, he wouldn't want us to suffer, why would he choose for me to live in the snares of the guilt, fear and shame and the devil so early in my life as part of his plan? It just doesn't make any sense and I just can't waste my time with believing that is all my purpose is about.
                  >
                  > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "mark" imalivngud@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Vey well spoken..and I am glad you are free. I was there for 22 years of my life...I have long since removed myself.from thr snares of Guilt and shame. I have no regrets...only that i spent ( But Chose ) to spend time in the prison cell of CFM. IKnew for along time that there was something wrong but figured it was me and that I need ti "get right". My faith in God is stronger yhan ever..I Myself do nor attend church on a weeklly basis .( I Idon't think the church was set up ythis way) to where we spend every living breathing moment of our lives in church....it's insanity . I am glad you are out..But please .Dont toss God to the side. Look at this as a learning expireinxce and realize that the deivl took you on a ride that youthough was going to be fun and exciting. Asking Jesus to forgive my sins was the best thing I ever did. Walk with confidence and pride and "thank God you found your way out.You can live in Freedom not bondage.
                  > >
                  > > May blessings come you way. Congrats you have chose to live BETTER. Not BITTER!
                  > >
                  > > from an old CFM'er mark Baker ...aka..imalivngud
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "rockstar645" <rockstar645@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > just wanted to thank you for having this message board out there for ex-members or members who are questioning, curious about leaving or have already left. I am writing because I want to support this group in their effort to warn those who are considering spending the rest of their life in that mess of a church organization. These posts have really confirmed every doubt I ever suspected that something is really wrong with the Potters House. I noticed that you were interested in what it is like for someone who grew up all their life in the PH, and I am a former PH pastor's kid who experienced it firsthand and it really is as bad as it is described here. From what my brothers and I experienced, it was senseless, useless doctrine to be raised under and the fellowship was the cause of so much dysfunction during my childhood that had to do with the way my siblings received unnecessary and ineffective discipline. The brainwashed-beyond-repair PH members who made their own decision to be there are different from their children who had no choice. Many PH kids may or may not agree with my perspective, but I think that is because they don't know another reality and are too sheltered to have any comparison of what their life would really be like "in the world". It is true that it is difficult to function in real life if you really believe what PH teaches. They think that their way is the only way to live because it is all they know when all it really comes down to is trusting your own reason and common sense, which is hard to do if you are either not in your right mind, insecure, vulnerable, naive, uncertain, questioning... if you are in a place like this, PH would like to take advantage of it and sign you up for life, and teach your kids and family to become co-dependent on church and the pastor. Be prepared for a life where you allow the pastor to make you feel guilty about things you should not feel guilty for. When you raise your kids with the intention of them having a better life than you did, the answer is not the Potter's House. It is one big scam. I really am sharing my experience out of pity for others who were raised and had to endure this kind of childhood and to say that you are not alone and I hope you all get out and move past what happened and live successful, happy lives of your own without having to be miserable and waste all your life in a church you were forced into by your parents. I might add that most of my family are still there with their spiritual blindfolds on since the 70s and 80s, and it hasn't done them much good besides being a waste of time and energy. So this may all be in vain but if it warns even one person, then I guess I haven't wasted my time with this.
                  > > >
                  > > > My dad pastored a CFM church for 10 years that only experienced only one growth spurt beyond about 100-150 people for a 6 month period. Then it trickled back down to about 20 people within a year and only half would show up for service... It was a really sad effort and I saw my parents frustration and anger that there weren't any new members or that somehow we were all doing something wrong because the church wasn't successful. If they couldn't get people to come to church and live a life the way the church wants them to then all of a sudden the mother church points a finger at the pastor, and they will make some irrational excuse to disrupt the pastor's life as "punishment" for their church not being successful. There is no real source for the guidance they give on how to raise kids or have a marriage or anything; pastors pull advice out of their ass using a cookie-cutter approach for counseling that one size fits all, that the next person is no different from the last - everyone is perverted, sinful and their whole family is going to hell unless they do what the pastor says. They use reverse psychology and say you can leave any time you want, but the pastors have extreme disdain for those who leave and they do get really hurt and bitter over it, even though they won't admit it, and that is why they address rebellion so much because they know that people really think about leaving and they will. I have heard pastors the way they talk about people in the church as if it were their only entertainment like they are describing a soap opera and instead of dealing with each individual question in a professional, confidential way, they go around bragging about how they gave someone a dose of the truth, which is always the same medicine - prayer and an earful of PH prescriptions - blame the devil, the TV, the Idols in your home, some bad spirit your or your kid has, the clothes you wear, etc. What happens behind closed doors in counseling sessions does not stay there by the way. CFMers ignore the accounts of people who leave and are doing well for themselves. You will only hear the bad things that happen - in fact, most of the stories are made up as scare tactics to keep members around. Anyone who has heard from a CFM minister that it is ok to leave probably should leave immediately for their own good and the good of their family. I am embarrassed for those with weak minds who actually believe the pastors. It isn't difficult to make their sermons up if you learn the rhetoric and follow them around learning mannerisms and pretty soon you will be a good clone and make it successful in the fellowship. The decisions that are made for you by your pastor are usually never in the best interest of your family, decisions are made in the best interest of the organization and the pastor so he can take all the credit for you being where you are. The main focus was on recruitment of impressionable, young people who have nothing else going for them, and who didn't have anyone with enough sense to raise them right, give them a good life or someone didn't care enough to get them away from this dangerous cult. Needless to say, all of the bad decisons my parents made while parenting were because of this awful church. Most of my spankings/beatings were because I didn't stay awake in church or because I listened to non-Christian music or because I snuck out to watch cartoons at my relative's house. My eldest brother got the worst end of the stick because he was sent to Santa Fe boot camp. The poor guy came back with horror stories that frightened me so much and my parents would threaten to send me there if I didn't get "right" with God. He had it the worst and I'm sorry to say he is still struggling to recover from CFM abusive parenting methods.What it really came down to was how much we could get away with behind my parents back and being afraid to piss them off all the time, and it isn't hard to piss off your parents if you are the unlucky child of a psycho-brainwashed PH member. But it isn't healthy if all you do is make your kids afraid of you. If your a PH Kid you learn the ropes really well. It doesn't take a spiritual experience to know you can pretend having the holy spirit, eebie jeebies, and faking the whole speaking in tongues routine. I passed my parent's judgment by faking it: going and taking a nap at the alter call, pretending to knock on doors while passing out flyers at outreach and just saying no one was home, and all of it was very exhausting but I survived having the sense to know it wasn't forever and using my mind to study, educate/inform myself to get far away from that life.
                  > > >
                  > > > My parents used to get really upset if we didn't "witness" to our friends at school and they always accused us of being sinful and worldly if we didn't bring our friends to church. You could hear the desperation for converts and the frustration that comes with being disappointed over people who eventually leave. The only loss really was the relationship with my parents didn't have much substance other than how they defined it according to fellowship standards. It is like they lost any identity of their own outside the church. The CFM pastors are self-centered and they only do what they do for their own glory; You and your family are only a number/resource to them. They say God saved you and God is moving in your life, when there is no quantifiable evidence to justify that. They will make people think that they "owe" the church and pastor something for realizing this awakening belief, when in reality, the "saved" individual is the only one putting the effort and making the decision to change their own life, yet the PH enjoys takes all the credit for "changed lives, " when really all that happened was your life changed because you actually became sober and got a job and a family, not because your pastor did it for you or because you went to church or even because you believe in God. I remind my parents all the time that I am where I am because of what love they gave me, they were the ones who caught me when I fell, comforted me and wiped my tears when I cried, who were there for me in my house growing up, not the church, not the idiot pastor we had or anybody else. I give them positive credit because I am tired of the fellowship telling them they were bad parents by their fellowship peers telling them that their grown adult children aren't serving god. My parents being severely brainwashed and stripped of all self-esteem by "headship" somehow think that they failed when I left the church and that I was cursing myself because I left. It was painful when my own brother and father called me a whore to my face because I had a non-Christian boyfriend who wasn't in church, but I can tellyou he treated me with alot more respect than any guy I ever met in any PH church. If you are a woman in the PH church, you are second-class citizen - all you are good for is marrying their disciple goons and making babies. Your biggest dream will be to become a pastor's wife... If your husband fucks up with headship, then they will hire your lawyer for the divorce, move you out of state and assign you another husband. Too bad most members are too stupid to fight for their rights in court. If your husband has more time for church than he has to spend time with you and your kids, you will make it in CFM. I'm glad I married a guy who promised me we will never join any church, ever! As time went on, I made my own life and I've come very far from where I started with nothing and all of my family cut me off for a good six months before my family started calling me again and coming around. I'm educated, working on a professional degree, independent, going places, happily married (to a non-CFMer, very supportive family man), free and making more annual income than both my parents combined, and now that I am in a good place in life, my family is no longer ashamed, and they don't have any problem taking the credit for raising me, funny! But even though they are confused how this could happen, how could I be doing fine without the church? their only logical justification for it is that I'm blessed because they pray for me. Somehow they find a way to give the PH credit for the positive. I've even challenged them not to pray for me and see what happens, but that is kind of cruel because psychologically they can't disattach themself from justifying anything that isn't fellowship-based or they can't believe any phenomenon that can't be explained by a CFM pastor...
                  > > >
                  > > > The church requires members to stand up and give a testimony if anything positive happens to them because they want you to believe it wasn't you that made these things happen, God did. This enforces their method of taking all the credit for things you've done on your own. If anything bad happens like getting sick or losing your job, It is always something that ends up being your fault that you didn't do something right: maybe you didn't punish your kids enough, maybe you aren't having enough outreaches or revivals or seminars or concerts, maybe you have a demon spirit etc., either way you are a still sinning and they will hold it over your head and torture you by saying that nothing good is happening because of some hidden sin or something you are doing wrong when usually its because you are so stressed and spending so much time going to church, giving money and not focusing on your own life goals and dreams. If you want blessing and success in life, you have to put in the work for it, no one can do it for you. Not even God. You are wasting your time hanging out with people from the Door / PH. Its going to drag you down if you give your tithes for so long and go to church so much and then no financial blessing ever happens. Imagine if you saved 10% of your income every year and put it into your retirement account. Imagine what your blessings would be like 30 years from now. Or you can end up like my parents who are still going and believing for a miracle and it hasn't done a damn thing besides give them a story of how they no longer drink alcohol, party or smoke pot when the last time they did that was in high school. It's nice that they want to inspire others to make lifestyle changes, but it should not include signing your life away and replacing a miserable life with an even more miserable one in which you will toil and suffer just as much. It's like believing in magic or gambling. To the people who still believe the nonsense spouted over the pulpit and putting their time and energy into the CFM machine will get them anywhere in life, you are in for a BIG disappointment. I know this because of my parents testimony (parrot story) how they got saved and turned their lives around in the 70s before I was even born. But now there is nothing to show for it... besides me and my siblings of course ;) I have nothing but pity for all those people still at CFM because they are letting themselves struggle for a belief, for friendships that aren't based on anything besides being Christian, and for CFM pastors who don't care about them, their future, their well-being; All CFM pastors and bogus "leaders" care about you for is that you fill a chair, get your life together, go to conference, get married and keep a steady income flowing into that offering pot so that they can save their name when they send the reports back to the mother church.You are only there to make your pastor look good and to help him climb the CFM hierarchy of pastor-status and you give him bragging rights so maybe one day, if he's good enough he can preach at a conference or maybe he can introduce his daughter to a stellar disciple at a conference instead of putting his time and energy into getting his kids into college and giving his family a good life, something most CFMers can't even imagine - living a good quality of life of their own. They send men to men's discipleship and tell these guys they are teaching them how to be a man when most of the men are losers in real life who can't even score a good wife on their own, especially one who isn't already brainwashed, housebroken or "saved" into their system, whatever they call it. They leave these men on their own and encourage the wives not to work so they will be even more co-dependent on their spouse. I know many guys who are desperate for wives but they consider themselves above all the women in the church because no one will meet their "high" standards. The most you can look forward to is getting a spouse who is an ex-junkie, ex-convict or someone who doesn't have an opportunity to advance in a real life outside their fellowship where all they learning is to become a clone of their pastor and even worse, their pastor's wife. And then once you are stuck married with someone who has that kind of baggage, then you won't be allowed to go to a real professional for counseling, and you can look forward to a real dysfunctional, stressed out, happy time had by all. Somehow with all this, you think you are helping other people by encouraging them to live that life with you.
                  > > >
                  > > > If you stay, you will never know what legitimate love, loyalty, friendships, family life or self-esteem is like without some fake "authority" figure without credentials, a pastor coaching you on what to do and setting you up for failure, wasted time, displaced relationships, and wasted money. A real man, in my belief, will do anything for the good of his family and makes his own moral-based decisions to that regard, but in the fellowship; they don't teach you to care about your family. They teach men that it is enough that they keep their family in church, which is a laboratory of disaster for raising children. Do your kids a favor, and be nice to them! Send them to private schools, save money for their future, health insurance, and invest into the well-being of your own family, give them the opportunity to meet a good life-partner who is truly successful because they will be there for you in the end, not the fellowship. That will help them more than the fellowship ever will...Most fellowship members can't even imagine a decent life beyond poverty and bourgeois mediocrity, unless you are Mitchell or one of his cronies, you will never know a life beyond your current socio-economic status. The fellowship leaves their pastors high and dry. Many of them are barely making it to get by if the congregation isn't putting any money in the offering. If you haven't learned the art of deceit and con-artistry, you will pray and pray and pray and the church still won't give money and your life won't change unless you get out, grow a pair, and make some positive decisions for yourself. Twenty years later, you will find yourself worn-out, hoping your ministry status has improved, with children to feed and your wife siding with your pastor because you aren't doing something right... if you aren't successful and strong enough to get your own family to love you and stay loyal, you can grovel to headship and only hope you aren't deeply co-dependent on your CFM friends to the point you are so stressed about getting kicked out to the curb for a silly reason or that they don't turn your own family against you and encourage your spouse to divorce you instead of working things out. Everything I was taught in the fellowship was useless to me in the real world by the way. My parents are good, hard-working people who were scammed into a terrible way of life, they will never leave the fellowship and that they made that choice on their own is all I that I ever regret. My siblings and I are now their retirement plan and good thing we stuck around for them since Jesus never came back and took them in the rapture like they had hoped. Good thing I am a humanist and I believe in genuine tolerance and respect for all who have different beliefs than mine, or my lack of belief. Whatever gets you through to your happy place. But please, take this as a warning and dont get suckered into going to the silly door or ph, for the sake of your own future sanity and for the sake of your children if you have any. It really is a place for the hopeless!!!!!!!!! Just get out now and RUN!
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • kenhaining777
                  I decided to repost this, as I had put up the link for fireball to read. This is really an insightful writing describing what it is like for someone who grows
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 11
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                    I decided to repost this, as I had put up the link for fireball to read.  This is really an insightful writing describing what it is like for someone who grows up in Wayman's World, and escapes from the fellowship. 

                    **********************************


                    just wanted to thank you for having this message board out there for ex-members
                    or members who are questioning, curious about leaving or have already left. I am
                    writing because I want to support this group in their effort to warn those who
                    are considering spending the rest of their life in that mess of a church
                    organization. These posts have really confirmed every doubt I ever suspected
                    that something is really wrong with the Potters House. I noticed that you were
                    interested in what it is like for someone who grew up all their life in the PH,
                    and I am a former PH pastor's kid who experienced it firsthand and it really is
                    as bad as it is described here. From what my brothers and I experienced, it was
                    senseless, useless doctrine to be raised under and the fellowship was the cause
                    of so much dysfunction during my childhood that had to do with the way my
                    siblings received unnecessary and ineffective discipline. The
                    brainwashed-beyond-repair PH members who made their own decision to be there are different from their children who had no choice.


                    Many PH kids may or may not
                    agree with my perspective, but I think that is because they don't know another
                    reality and are too sheltered to have any comparison of what their life would
                    really be like "in the world". It is true that it is difficult to function in
                    real life if you really believe what PH teaches. They think that their way is
                    the only way to live because it is all they know when all it really comes down
                    to is trusting your own reason and common sense, which is hard to do if you are
                    either not in your right mind, insecure, vulnerable, naive, uncertain,
                    questioning... if you are in a place like this, PH would like to take advantage
                    of it and sign you up for life, and teach your kids and family to become
                    co-dependent on church and the pastor. Be prepared for a life where you allow
                    the pastor to make you feel guilty about things you should not feel guilty for.


                    When you raise your kids with the intention of them having a better life than
                    you did, the answer is not the Potter's House. It is one big scam. I really am
                    sharing my experience out of pity for others who were raised and had to endure
                    this kind of childhood and to say that you are not alone and I hope you all get
                    out and move past what happened and live successful, happy lives of your own
                    without having to be miserable and waste all your life in a church you were
                    forced into by your parents. I might add that most of my family are still there
                    with their spiritual blindfolds on since the 70s and 80s, and it hasn't done
                    them much good besides being a waste of time and energy. So this may all be in
                    vain but if it warns even one person, then I guess I haven't wasted my time with
                    this.

                    My dad pastored a CFM church for 10 years that only experienced only one growth
                    spurt beyond about 100-150 people for a 6 month period. Then it trickled back
                    down to about 20 people within a year and only half would show up for service...
                    It was a really sad effort and I saw my parents frustration and anger that there
                    weren't any new members or that somehow we were all doing something wrong
                    because the church wasn't successful. If they couldn't get people to come to
                    church and live a life the way the church wants them to then all of a sudden the
                    mother church points a finger at the pastor, and they will make some irrational
                    excuse to disrupt the pastor's life as "punishment" for their church not being
                    successful. There is no real source for the guidance they give on how to raise
                    kids or have a marriage or anything; pastors pull advice out of their ass using
                    a cookie-cutter approach for counseling that one size fits all, that the next
                    person is no different from the last - everyone is perverted, sinful and their
                    whole family is going to hell unless they do what the pastor says. They use
                    reverse psychology and say you can leave any time you want, but the pastors have
                    extreme disdain for those who leave and they do get really hurt and bitter over
                    it, even though they won't admit it, and that is why they address rebellion so
                    much because they know that people really think about leaving and they will. I
                    have heard pastors the way they talk about people in the church as if it were
                    their only entertainment like they are describing a soap opera and instead of
                    dealing with each individual question in a professional, confidential way, they
                    go around bragging about how they gave someone a dose of the truth, which is
                    always the same medicine - prayer and an earful of PH prescriptions - blame the
                    devil, the TV, the Idols in your home, some bad spirit your or your kid has,
                    the clothes you wear, etc.


                    What happens behind closed doors in counseling
                    sessions does not stay there by the way. CFMers ignore the accounts of people
                    who leave and are doing well for themselves. You will only hear the bad things
                    that happen - in fact, most of the stories are made up as scare tactics to keep
                    members around. Anyone who has heard from a CFM minister that it is ok to leave
                    probably should leave immediately for their own good and the good of their
                    family. I am embarrassed for those with weak minds who actually believe the
                    pastors. It isn't difficult to make their sermons up if you learn the rhetoric
                    and follow them around learning mannerisms and pretty soon you will be a good
                    clone and make it successful in the fellowship. The decisions that are made for
                    you by your pastor are usually never in the best interest of your family,
                    decisions are made in the best interest of the organization and the pastor so he
                    can take all the credit for you being where you are.


                    The main focus was on
                    recruitment of impressionable, young people who have nothing else going for
                    them, and who didn't have anyone with enough sense to raise them right, give
                    them a good life or someone didn't care enough to get them away from this
                    dangerous cult. Needless to say, all of the bad decisons my parents made while
                    parenting were because of this awful church. Most of my spankings/beatings were
                    because I didn't stay awake in church or because I listened to non-Christian
                    music or because I snuck out to watch cartoons at my relative's house. My
                    eldest brother got the worst end of the stick because he was sent to Santa Fe
                    boot camp. The poor guy came back with horror stories that frightened me so much
                    and my parents would threaten to send me there if I didn't get "right" with God.
                    He had it the worst and I'm sorry to say he is still struggling to recover from
                    CFM abusive parenting methods.


                    What it really came down to was how much we could get away with behind my parents back and being afraid to piss them off all the
                    time, and it isn't hard to piss off your parents if you are the unlucky child of
                    a psycho-brainwashed PH member. But it isn't healthy if all you do is make your
                    kids afraid of you. If your a PH Kid you learn the ropes really well. It doesn't
                    take a spiritual experience to know you can pretend having the holy spirit,
                    eebie jeebies, and faking the whole speaking in tongues routine. I passed my
                    parent's judgment by faking it: going and taking a nap at the alter call,
                    pretending to knock on doors while passing out flyers at outreach and just
                    saying no one was home, and all of it was very exhausting but I survived having
                    the sense to know it wasn't forever and using my mind to study, educate/inform
                    myself to get far away from that life.

                    My parents used to get really upset if we didn't "witness" to our friends at
                    school and they always accused us of being sinful and worldly if we didn't bring
                    our friends to church. You could hear the desperation for converts and the
                    frustration that comes with being disappointed over people who eventually leave.
                    The only loss really was the relationship with my parents didn't have much
                    substance other than how they defined it according to fellowship standards. It
                    is like they lost any identity of their own outside the church. The CFM pastors
                    are self-centered and they only do what they do for their own glory; You and
                    your family are only a number/resource to them. They say God saved you and God
                    is moving in your life, when there is no quantifiable evidence to justify that.
                    They will make people think that they "owe" the church and pastor something for
                    realizing this awakening belief, when in reality, the "saved" individual is the
                    only one putting the effort and making the decision to change their own life,
                    yet the PH enjoys takes all the credit for "changed lives, " when really all
                    that happened was your life changed because you actually became sober and got a
                    job and a family, not because your pastor did it for you or because you went to
                    church or even because you believe in God.


                    I remind my parents all the time that
                    I am where I am because of what love they gave me, they were the ones who caught
                    me when I fell, comforted me and wiped my tears when I cried, who were there for
                    me in my house growing up, not the church, not the idiot pastor we had or
                    anybody else. I give them positive credit because I am tired of the fellowship
                    telling them they were bad parents by their fellowship peers telling them that
                    their grown adult children aren't serving god. My parents being severely
                    brainwashed and stripped of all self-esteem by "headship" somehow think that
                    they failed when I left the church and that I was cursing myself because I left.
                    It was painful when my own brother and father called me a whore to my face
                    because I had a non-Christian boyfriend who wasn't in church, but I can tell you
                    he treated me with a lot more respect than any guy I ever met in any PH church.
                    If you are a woman in the PH church, you are second-class citizen - all you are
                    good for is marrying their disciple goons and making babies. Your biggest dream
                    will be to become a pastor's wife... If your husband fucks up with headship,
                    then they will hire your lawyer for the divorce, move you out of state and
                    assign you another husband. Too bad most members are too stupid to fight for
                    their rights in court. If your husband has more time for church than he has to
                    spend time with you and your kids, you will make it in CFM.


                    I'm glad I married a
                    guy who promised me we will never join any church, ever! As time went on, I made
                    my own life and I've come very far from where I started with nothing and all of
                    my family cut me off for a good six months before my family started calling me
                    again and coming around. I'm educated, working on a professional degree,
                    independent, going places, happily married (to a non-CFMer, very supportive
                    family man), free and making more annual income than both my parents combined,
                    and now that I am in a good place in life, my family is no longer ashamed, and
                    they don't have any problem taking the credit for raising me, funny! But even
                    though they are confused how this could happen, how could I be doing fine
                    without the church? their only logical justification for it is that I'm blessed
                    because they pray for me. Somehow they find a way to give the PH credit for the
                    positive. I've even challenged them not to pray for me and see what happens, but
                    that is kind of cruel because psychologically they can't disattach themself from
                    justifying anything that isn't fellowship-based or they can't believe any
                    phenomenon that can't be explained by a CFM pastor...

                    The church requires members to stand up and give a testimony if anything
                    positive happens to them because they want you to believe it wasn't you that
                    made these things happen, God did. This enforces their method of taking all the
                    credit for things you've done on your own. If anything bad happens like getting
                    sick or losing your job, It is always something that ends up being your fault
                    that you didn't do something right: maybe you didn't punish your kids enough,
                    maybe you aren't having enough outreaches or revivals or seminars or concerts,
                    maybe you have a demon spirit etc., either way you are a still sinning and they
                    will hold it over your head and torture you by saying that nothing good is
                    happening because of some hidden sin or something you are doing wrong when
                    usually its because you are so stressed and spending so much time going to
                    church, giving money and not focusing on your own life goals and dreams. If you
                    want blessing and success in life, you have to put in the work for it, no one
                    can do it for you. Not even God. You are wasting your time hanging out with
                    people from the Door / PH. Its going to drag you down if you give your tithes
                    for so long and go to church so much and then no financial blessing ever
                    happens. Imagine if you saved 10% of your income every year and put it into your
                    retirement account. Imagine what your blessings would be like 30 years from now.


                    Or you can end up like my parents who are still going and believing for a
                    miracle and it hasn't done a damn thing besides give them a story of how they no
                    longer drink alcohol, party or smoke pot when the last time they did that was in
                    high school. It's nice that they want to inspire others to make lifestyle
                    changes, but it should not include signing your life away and replacing a
                    miserable life with an even more miserable one in which you will toil and suffer
                    just as much. It's like believing in magic or gambling. To the people who still
                    believe the nonsense spouted over the pulpit and putting their time and energy
                    into the CFM machine will get them anywhere in life, you are in for a BIG
                    disappointment. I know this because of my parents testimony (parrot story) how
                    they got saved and turned their lives around in the 70s before I was even born.
                    But now there is nothing to show for it... besides me and my siblings of course
                    ;)


                    I have nothing but pity for all those people still at CFM because they are
                    letting themselves struggle for a belief, for friendships that aren't based on
                    anything besides being Christian, and for CFM pastors who don't care about them,
                    their future, their well-being; All CFM pastors and bogus "leaders" care about
                    you for is that you fill a chair, get your life together, go to conference, get
                    married and keep a steady income flowing into that offering pot so that they can
                    save their name when they send the reports back to the mother church.You are
                    only there to make your pastor look good and to help him climb the CFM hierarchy
                    of pastor-status and you give him bragging rights so maybe one day, if he's good
                    enough he can preach at a conference or maybe he can introduce his daughter to a
                    stellar disciple at a conference instead of putting his time and energy into
                    getting his kids into college and giving his family a good life, something most
                    CFMers can't even imagine - living a good quality of life of their own.


                    They
                    send men to men's discipleship and tell these guys they are teaching them how
                    to be a man when most of the men are losers in real life who can't even score a
                    good wife on their own, especially one who isn't already brainwashed,
                    housebroken or "saved" into their system, whatever they call it. They leave
                    these men on their own and encourage the wives not to work so they will be even
                    more co-dependent on their spouse. I know many guys who are desperate for wives
                    but they consider themselves above all the women in the church because no one
                    will meet their "high" standards. The most you can look forward to is getting a
                    spouse who is an ex-junkie, ex-convict or someone who doesn't have an
                    opportunity to advance in a real life outside their fellowship where all they
                    learning is to become a clone of their pastor and even worse, their pastor's
                    wife. And then once you are stuck married with someone who has that kind of
                    baggage, then you won't be allowed to go to a real professional for counseling,
                    and you can look forward to a real dysfunctional, stressed out, happy time had
                    by all. Somehow with all this, you think you are helping other people by
                    encouraging them to live that life with you.

                    If you stay, you will never know what legitimate love, loyalty, friendships,
                    family life or self-esteem is like without some fake "authority" figure without
                    credentials, a pastor coaching you on what to do and setting you up for failure,
                    wasted time, displaced relationships, and wasted money. A real man, in my
                    belief, will do anything for the good of his family and makes his own
                    moral-based decisions to that regard, but in the fellowship; they don't teach
                    you to care about your family. They teach men that it is enough that they keep
                    their family in church, which is a laboratory of disaster for raising children.
                    Do your kids a favor, and be nice to them! Send them to private schools, save
                    money for their future, health insurance, and invest into the well-being of your
                    own family, give them the opportunity to meet a good life-partner who is truly
                    successful because they will be there for you in the end, not the fellowship.
                    That will help them more than the fellowship ever will...Most fellowship members
                    can't even imagine a decent life beyond poverty and bourgeois mediocrity, unless
                    you are Mitchell or one of his cronies, you will never know a life beyond your
                    current socio-economic status.


                    The fellowship leaves their pastors high and dry.
                    Many of them are barely making it to get by if the congregation isn't putting
                    any money in the offering. If you haven't learned the art of deceit and
                    con-artistry, you will pray and pray and pray and the church still won't give
                    money and your life won't change unless you get out, grow a pair, and make some
                    positive decisions for yourself. Twenty years later, you will find yourself
                    worn-out, hoping your ministry status has improved, with children to feed and
                    your wife siding with your pastor because you aren't doing something right... if
                    you aren't successful and strong enough to get your own family to love you and
                    stay loyal, you can grovel to headship and only hope you aren't deeply
                    co-dependent on your CFM friends to the point you are so stressed about getting
                    kicked out to the curb for a silly reason or that they don't turn your own
                    family against you and encourage your spouse to divorce you instead of working
                    things out.


                    Everything I was taught in the fellowship was useless to me in the
                    real world by the way. My parents are good, hard-working people who were scammed into a terrible way of life, they will never leave the fellowship and that they
                    made that choice on their own is all I that I ever regret. My siblings and I are
                    now their retirement plan and good thing we stuck around for them since Jesus
                    never came back and took them in the rapture like they had hoped. Good thing I
                    am a humanist and I believe in genuine tolerance and respect for all who have
                    different beliefs than mine, or my lack of belief. Whatever gets you through to
                    your happy place. But please, take this as a warning and don't get suckered into
                    going to the silly door or ph, for the sake of your own future sanity and for
                    the sake of your children if you have any. It really is a place for the
                    hopeless!!!!!!!!! Just get out now and RUN!

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Escape_from_the_Fellowship/message/30198 

                    Posted February 8, 2013

                     

                     



                  • fireball9919
                    OMG it s so crazy to see that someone else that I have never met has gone through the EXACT same thing I ve gone through along with many other teens in the CFM
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 11
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                      OMG it's so crazy to see that someone else that I have never met has gone through the EXACT same thing I've gone through along with many other teens in the CFM churches around MA. It's mind blowing! I remember hearing stories of the Santa Fe boot camp from my pastor at the time and other parents and adults. That was around the time that the cape cod "kids" boot camp started. It was more low key but when you have a 40 somethin year old adult yelling in the face of a 10 year old, it kinda messes you up. I remember all the hype about "who wants to go to boot camp?!" and none of us really wanted to go but if we said something about it we were looked at as if we were on the verge of backsliding and NEEDED to go.. It was a mess. 

                      Thanks for your story and support! It means a lot to me knowing that there are people out there that know exactly how brainwashed I feel. 
                    • reispeices
                      It s great to read these. I think most of us PH kids had similar experiences. Apple-biter, we are the same age and entered at nearly the same time. My family
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 11
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                        It's great to read these. I think most of us PH kids had similar experiences. Apple-biter, we are the same age and entered at nearly the same time. My family entered the fellowship just one year later (when I was 9). Even though I was never a Pastors kid, I became close friends with a few PKs over the years who confided in me all kinds of things and in my heart I always felt sorry for them - even during the years when I full on believed in the Fellowship and it being the only way to heaven. I suppose the stories my PK friends told me should have been a clue to the true nature of what we were a part of, but the serious dysfunction didn't truly set-in until I was older. Rockstar - so much of what you said rings completely true for me. My husband and I and our siblings are all ex-members, but we have parents who remain in the Fellowship. 

                        Sometimes I don't know what is sadder, that we aren't able to save our parents from the cult, or that they look at our rejection of the fellowship as a negative reflection on them. 
                      • reispeices
                        On the note of relationships. I mentioned in my last comment that my husband and I are both ex-members raised in the church. A testament to the effect of a
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 11
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                          On the note of relationships. I mentioned in my last comment that my husband and I are both ex-members raised in the church. A testament to the effect of a cult-upbringing is the difficulty in forming relationships with people who don't know what you came out from and not fully knowing how to describe what your experience. My husband and I did not get married in the Fellowship. We left at different times and both tried and failed miserably to form healthy relationships with people in the outside world which eventually led us back to one another (and thankfully not back to the Fellowship). Our understanding of each others experiences  in turn allows us to be more forgiving of each others mental and emotional instabilities/dysfunctions. 
                        • kenhaining777
                          reispeices said: [On the note of relationships. I mentioned in my last comment that my husband and I are both ex-members raised in the church. A testament to
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 12
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                            reispeices said:

                            [On the note of relationships. I mentioned in my last comment that my husband and I are both ex-members raised in the church. A testament to the effect of a cult-upbringing is the difficulty in forming relationships with people who don't know what you came out from and not fully knowing how to describe what your experience.]

                            I have known some who just simply make the choice not to talk about their fellowship past at all with the people they socialize with, work with, etc.  They even get into love relationships, marriages, and the like, and never bring it up.  There's one I know of who was in the fellowship for 20 years and did this.  They are just vague about their past, and some of the ex members who are women say that they were just housewives and got divorced. 

                            That works for some people, but most ex members, who were in Wayman's World for any length of time, and whose lives were greatly affected by it, need to talk about the experience from time to time, at least.  I talked to one ex pastor/leader, who made it clear to me that he never wants to talk about "the past" again.  However, human nature being what it is, we did mention a few things in our conversations. 

                            I have turned it into a study on organized religion. The fact that I was caught up in it still mystifies me to an extent.  If I had made just one slightly different decision, during the sequence of events that led up to my conversion, then I would have escaped from the fellowship before I ever entered it.  My experience does show me how deadly these religious groups can be. 

                            Aside from romantic relationships, I marvel how many ex members have many friends who are also ex members.  As I looked through Facebook, I found that I could find all kinds of ex members on a ex member's friends list.  Most of these people never would have been friends if they had not had the common background of being inmates in Wayman's religious prison.  I wonder how often they talk about the fellowship experience when they interact?  It must come up from time to time, or at least once in a while. 

                            I think every ex citizen of Waymanland has had the experience of trying to tell someone who had never been in anything like the fellowship about that experience of Waymanism.  These people who were never in a cult usually don't have a clue what you are talking about.  However, sometimes they say stuff that really enlightens you.  Like when you tell them about the leader going to hotel rooms 100 miles from home to study for sermons, and they say, "Well, it's obvious what he was doing!"  Oh yeah!  Common sense!  I need to get that back. 

                            Shalom
                            Ken




                          • reispeices
                            I was one of those people who chose not to speak of it and tried to move on like it was never part of my life before realizing that I wasn t going to move on
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 12
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                              I was one of those people who chose not to speak of it and tried to move on like it was never part of my life before realizing that I wasn't going to move on unless I took time to reflect on my experience and how I can grow from it. Several years ago my husband and I went on a camping trip with a group of family and friends. No one had really considered what the group dynamics were until late that night when we were all circled around the campfire. In our group there were 6 ex-members (all having grown-up in the fellowship), 2 current members (also having grow-up in the fellowship), and 2 people who had never attended a fellowship church. The conversation started to take serious tone as some of the ex-members were sharing experiences they had while in the fellowship - things that they had never really talked about with anyone and we all agreed that we basically never spoke about the fellowship with people who hadn't experienced it for themselves. As the conversation went on the two people who had never attended CFM remained silent until one of them finally exclaimed with her jaw to the ground, "I've never met cult survivors before!" This was a turning point for me. Before that day, sometimes people would call Waymanland a cult and I didn't really take it seriously. I said it was a really strict religion that I ultimately rejected, but refused to actually call it a cult. It wasn't until that night around the fire that I finally accepted that that was what I was, a cult survivor.  I said all that to say that I think it's important from time to time to reflect on your experience and have others that you can talk to help you process the experience and move forward in life. 


                            • its_just_me_nancy
                              Hey Reispeices, I also had to reflect on my experience for a LONG time before I really got over it . I will tell you that I feel tremendously blessed that
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 12
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                                 Hey Reispeices,
                                 I also had to reflect on my experience for a LONG time before I really got "over it".
                                 I will tell you that I feel tremendously blessed that the group "Slalm the Door" was up and going in the late 90's and I was reading there before we left.  After leaving the PH the group was a life saver because I knew I was communicating with people that knew what I had been through and what I was experiencing.

                                Whey my husband and I went to the Calvary Chapel pastor and talked to him about our  experience at the PH he looked absolutely SHOCKED.  People that have not been through something like that can't understand.  They probably think to themselves: "Well, how the hell did you get involved with something so blatantly wrong in the first place"?  

                                Basic answer: "Uhm, you would have had to be there to understand."

                                I don't hurt from my experience anymore, but I know thatto this day people are hurting inside and outside of that place.  I hurt for them. 

                                Potterites could say: "She is bitter, look at her posting after being out 15 years". 

                                Well, I made friends on these groups, that's why.  I also want people that get out to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is/was the right decision and that there are people who care, will listen, encourage,  and not judge.

                                Peace to you, and may your healing continue!~
                                Nancy
                              • kenhaining777
                                reispeices said: [As the conversation went on the two people who had never attended CFM remained silent until one of them finally exclaimed with her jaw to the
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 13
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                                  reispeices said:

                                  [As the conversation went on the two people who had never attended CFM remained silent until one of them finally exclaimed with her jaw to the ground, "I've never met cult survivors before!" This was a turning point for me.]

                                  I remember when I was on Slam the Door message board, back in 2000, I would call the fellowship a cult, and I would get push back, even from the owner of the group.  However, after a few years, many more were calling it a cult on that message board, and other places on the internet.  

                                  At one point, while I was a pastor, I decided to stay at the church after morning prayer meetings, and I would pray alone, and read the Bible for my own enjoyment.  One day, while I was doing this, I saw through the whole thing.  That was February of 1993.  I made the decision to slowly steer the church away from legalism, elitism, and for lack of a better term, Waymanism.  I was doing this for about 15 months before I was finally called on it, as I had let my Bible study leaders vote out the movie rule. 

                                  I knew it was a cult from that time in 1993.  It was a very difficult situation as I was still immersed in it, and a pastor in it.  Wayman now has safeguards against any pastor doing what I did, and even I was cut short by a man in my church reporting me to Prescott, that is, Wayman O.  Someone told me that at an area discipleship class, with 900 men in attendance, Wayman told them that if they ever found that their pastor was teaching things contrary to fellowship doctrine, that they were to call Prescott immediately.  The pastor who realizes that the fellowship is a destructive cult is therefore in a very difficult position.  I have advised pastors, who may be reading here, to set up their bylaws to guarantee them a good severance package, if there is significant church assets.  For the ones who are just renting a building, there isn't much they can guarantee.  It's a tough situation. 

                                  I think, because of this, a lot of pastors are playing along with it, lest they end up out in the cold, so to speak.  There is really no one they can rely on, should they expose the fellowship as the cult it is, and the leadership will even try to break up their marriage if they can. 

                                  It is a cult, and not just some church group that has a few problems.  This does away with the mantra, "There's no perfect fellowship."  We are not talking about a lack of perfection, but a destructive quality that has far reaching effects on long term members.  The fact that they defame and attack ex members with a vile hatred is a very telling quality of that group.  That's just one of many features that indicate it is indeed a destructive religious cult. 

                                  I remember sitting with Hank Houghton, shortly after he was driven out of the fellowship.  He said, "No one knows what it is like to get out until they do it."  When we were part of the monster we just went along with it.  When you get on the wrong side of the monster, you see that it is a monster indeed.  You see its true nature.  It has nothing to do with Jesus, the Bible, or anything like that.  It is more akin to a pack of vicious dogs. 

                                  Shalom
                                  Ken



                                • Kim Tardie
                                  Very well stated Ken.  More and more people that have fallen prey to their system are beginning to speak up and sounding the alarm.  It has to come from the
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 13
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                                    Very well stated Ken.  More and more people that have fallen prey to their system are beginning to speak up and sounding the alarm.  It has to come from the laity to get their attention because this hits their bottom line.  Yesterday I was told of a couple where the husband gave up his retirement plan and now gives 30% of his income as a "tithe"!  Putting away 10% over a persons career would give them enough to retire and be well off.  One family giving enough for 3 retirement plans and not sending their kids to college.  So sad.

                                    When I decided to begin speaking up and have since spent more time researching and hearing from former members of the fellowship my heart is so very saddened.  There was incredible opportunity if the ship was steered in the right direction.  Tragedy, after tragedy, after tragedy and they tell the people that it is only a few of us out here.  I see blatant lies coming from the stage/pulpit.  Oh if Jesus were alive today and went into a place that should be called a house of prayer and see what these false shepherd have done, I'm not sure their buildings would be left standing upright.  Forget the money changers tables!  So much done behind the scenes.  God have mercy on us one and all.  Rather or not folks continue to believe there is a God is not the issue.  The issue is integrity.


                                    On Friday, February 13, 2015 9:53 PM, kenhaining777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


                                     
                                    reispeices said:

                                    [As the conversation went on the two people who had never attended CFM remained silent until one of them finally exclaimed with her jaw to the ground, "I've never met cult survivors before!" This was a turning point for me.]

                                    I remember when I was on Slam the Door message board, back in 2000, I would call the fellowship a cult, and I would get push back, even from the owner of the group.  However, after a few years, many more were calling it a cult on that message board, and other places on the internet.  

                                    At one point, while I was a pastor, I decided to stay at the church after morning prayer meetings, and I would pray alone, and read the Bible for my own enjoyment.  One day, while I was doing this, I saw through the whole thing.  That was February of 1993.  I made the decision to slowly steer the church away from legalism, elitism, and for lack of a better term, Waymanism.  I was doing this for about 15 months before I was finally called on it, as I had let my Bible study leaders vote out the movie rule. 

                                    I knew it was a cult from that time in 1993.  It was a very difficult situation as I was still immersed in it, and a pastor in it.  Wayman now has safeguards against any pastor doing what I did, and even I was cut short by a man in my church reporting me to Prescott, that is, Wayman O.  Someone told me that at an area discipleship class, with 900 men in attendance, Wayman told them that if they ever found that their pastor was teaching things contrary to fellowship doctrine, that they were to call Prescott immediately.  The pastor who realizes that the fellowship is a destructive cult is therefore in a very difficult position.  I have advised pastors, who may be reading here, to set up their bylaws to guarantee them a good severance package, if there is significant church assets.  For the ones who are just renting a building, there isn't much they can guarantee.  It's a tough situation. 

                                    I think, because of this, a lot of pastors are playing along with it, lest they end up out in the cold, so to speak.  There is really no one they can rely on, should they expose the fellowship as the cult it is, and the leadership will even try to break up their marriage if they can. 

                                    It is a cult, and not just some church group that has a few problems.  This does away with the mantra, "There's no perfect fellowship."  We are not talking about a lack of perfection, but a destructive quality that has far reaching effects on long term members.  The fact that they defame and attack ex members with a vile hatred is a very telling quality of that group.  That's just one of many features that indicate it is indeed a destructive religious cult. 

                                    I remember sitting with Hank Houghton, shortly after he was driven out of the fellowship.  He said, "No one knows what it is like to get out until they do it."  When we were part of the monster we just went along with it.  When you get on the wrong side of the monster, you see that it is a monster indeed.  You see its true nature.  It has nothing to do with Jesus, the Bible, or anything like that.  It is more akin to a pack of vicious dogs. 

                                    Shalom
                                    Ken





                                  • kenhaining777
                                    Kim said: [Yesterday I was told of a couple where the husband gave up his retirement plan and now gives 30% of his income as a tithe ! Putting away 10% over
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 14
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                                      Kim said:

                                      [Yesterday I was told of a couple where the husband gave up his retirement plan and now gives 30% of his income as a "tithe"!  Putting away 10% over a persons career would give them enough to retire and be well off.  One family giving enough for 3 retirement plans and not sending their kids to college.  So sad.]

                                      It is astounding how much money the fellowship gets out of people, and those people almost always leave down the road.  Once they leave, according to the doctrines of Waymanism, they lose all their "reward" with God, and all their labor, sacrifice, and giving are forgotten. 

                                      I was talking with another pastor once, back when I was in Waymanland, and he told me of a couple who had given tons of money to his church.  However, this couple left the church over the 1990 exodus, as their were relatives in other churches involved in the exodus.  This pastor related to me how he called Waymanchrist, and His Unholiness instructed this pastor on how to curse these people for leaving the church, and taking their large tithes and offerings out of the coffers of the fellowship.  So, this man followed the instructions, which included cursing their health, cursing their children, cursing their finances, cursing their marriage, and just cursing them all together.  This pastor then told me, with great glee, how this couple had a special boat with an expensive engine, and how they had an accident, and the engine fell off the boat, and could not be retrieved.  It was a $100,000 piece of equipment. 

                                      The fellowship says that these bitter backsliders should just "move on," and do something else with their lives.  Yet, they will advocate cursing the ex members as they try to move on.  Picture someone leaving after giving up retirement funds, college funds, and all kinds of other benefits, in order to support "the kingdom."  They leave the church and then they realize that they can't get back what they gave away, and there never was this blessing that was supposed to be so great that you wouldn't be able to contain it.  Many leave broke and in debt.  That's the real "reward." 

                                      It would be very informative to be able to calculate the total amount of money given to fellowship churches by ex members.  It would be a staggering figure.  Rather than be grateful for all that money that they gave, and wish them well as they have departed from the fellowship, they are slandered, cursed, shunned, and despised. 

                                      This is what current members need to realize.  They won't even let you see the church bank statements so that you can know exactly how the money is spent.  They tell you that is not your concern.  Well, if it is not your concern, stop giving any money.  If you are called on it, tell the pastor it is not his concern.  They keep track of what you give, but you are not allowed to know what they spend it on?  Why are you staying there?

                                      Shalom
                                      Ken



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