Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

The Perspective of Time

Expand Messages
  • kenhaining777
    I joined what was then called The Arizona Fellowship way back in December of 1975. I joined the church in Tucson, which was one of about 5 churches that
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 28, 2013
      I joined what was then called "The Arizona Fellowship" way back in December of 1975.  I joined the church in Tucson, which was one of about 5 churches that were a part of this group of churches that were "planted" by Wayman O. Mitchell.  This group of churches was part of a denomination called Foursquare, and Wayman O. had received permission to bypass sending men to Bible college, and instead "discipling" some of the men in his church to become pastors.  By doing this, he instilled in these men a fanatical loyalty to himself, and taught them to have a good deal of disdain for the denomination of which he was a part. This enabled him to later pull his fellowship out of Foursquare.  

      There wasn't much in the way of literature around concerning Christian/Bible based cults when I joined the Tucson church, "The Door."  It seemed like I had indeed joined up with, as Wayman's disciples billed us, the greatest move of God in the Earth today.  It was hard for me to perceive that I was actually part of a budding religious scam with the primary goal of empowering and enriching its founder.  With the perspective of time, this is now crystal clear.  However, without that perspective, I was a card carrying member of the Wayman Fan Club, totally believing that he was this great man of God.  It was quite an illusion.

      I got out of the fellowship, with my church, in 1994, having become one of the "pastors" of that group for about 15 years.  I didn't feel right about just giving up the church and making my best deal with Wayman and my own "pastor," Harold Warner.  Instead I thought I could enlighten the people in my church as to the underlying true nature of the fellowship, and that they would help me to rebuild the church in a true biblical pattern.  Now that I have the perspective of having gone through that, I realize that in most cases that is futile.  Just because the pastor sees through the fellowship doesn't mean that the people in his church will see it.  That's why I really don't blame a pastor who has had enough of Wayman's World for just asking for some severance pay and bailing.  As it was, Wayman was able to split my church with the help of a key inside man. 

      One interesting perspective of time that I have is related to those I have encountered on these message boards over the years.  When a person first gets out, they will often have all kinds of ideas about the direction they are going to go in.  Most say they will continue to be Christian and frequently attend church.  What I have learned, however, as I have observed ex members over the years is that what they believe and think when they first get out is usually not anything like what they will believe in 5 or 10 years.  There are a few exceptions, but for the most part there is quite a contrast between what they are saying and thinking 6 months after they exited Wayman's World, and what they are saying and thinking a few years later.  There even seems to be quite a few people who were part of it for years who virtually forget the whole thing and go back to what they consider to be a much more normal life.  They drop the whole religious trip and it is rare, if ever, that they speak about the fellowship experience, and the getting out experience that they went through. 

      Still others find themselves endorsing a very different brand of Christianity.  Some adopt the forbidden belief in eternal security.  Of course, I am referring to it being forbidden by the teachings of Waymanism.  Some have a Christian faith which does not include church attendance, or feeling forced to tithe or burn.  Some have a very quiet faith.  They still believe that Jesus is the Savior, and that the Bible is the Word of God, but they more or less keep it to themselves.  Some develop non Christian beliefs in the religious or spiritual sense.  Still others just become outright atheist.  

      Looking back over the years, I gain quite a perspective on a lot of these issues.  If I live long enough, it well be fascinating to consider where people are at after they have been out for decades.  I am approaching 2 decades of being out, myself.  I also wonder about those who will get out after being in it for 30+ years.  That will be a trip for them, no doubt.  People getting out at 40 years old, after being raised in it, would also be something to watch.  And I wonder if any of these hardcore Waymanite ex leaders, who are doing Wayman 2, the sequel, will ever really renounce that whole religious trip that they learned from The Little Big Man?  That would be something. 

      Shalom
      Ken



    • its_just_me_nancy
      Kenny said: People getting out at 40 years old, after being raised in it, would also be something to watch. I agree. I think it would be something like a
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 29, 2013

        Kenny said:  People getting out at 40 years old, after being raised in it, would also be something to watch. 

        I agree.

        I think it would be something like a prisoner that was incarcerated for 25 years released back into society and found out just how much has changed in the outside world during their incarceration.

        Kind of reminds me of the movie The Shawshank Redemption when the one prisoner was released, he couldn't handle being on the outside, so he hung himself in his hotel room. 

        YIKES.

        Soooooooo, my advice would be: GET OUT NOW.

        I cannot imagine how that would be. I was screwed up enough with just 7 years in that mess. I feel really sorry for the kids being raised there. It is sad.

        Shalom Aleicheim, Nancy

        --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 wrote:
        >
        > I joined what was then called "The Arizona Fellowship" way back in
        > December of 1975. I joined the church in Tucson, which was one of about
        > 5 churches that were a part of this group of churches that were
        > "planted" by Wayman O. Mitchell. This group of churches was part of a
        > denomination called Foursquare, and Wayman O. had received permission to
        > bypass sending men to Bible college, and instead "discipling" some of
        > the men in his church to become pastors. By doing this, he instilled in
        > these men a fanatical loyalty to himself, and taught them to have a good
        > deal of disdain for the denomination of which he was a part. This
        > enabled him to later pull his fellowship out of Foursquare.
        >
        > There wasn't much in the way of literature around concerning
        > Christian/Bible based cults when I joined the Tucson church, "The Door."
        > It seemed like I had indeed joined up with, as Wayman's disciples billed
        > us, the greatest move of God in the Earth today. It was hard for me to
        > perceive that I was actually part of a budding religious scam with the
        > primary goal of empowering and enriching its founder. With the
        > perspective of time, this is now crystal clear. However, without that
        > perspective, I was a card carrying member of the Wayman Fan Club,
        > totally believing that he was this great man of God. It was quite an
        > illusion.
        >
        > I got out of the fellowship, with my church, in 1994, having become one
        > of the "pastors" of that group for about 15 years. I didn't feel right
        > about just giving up the church and making my best deal with Wayman and
        > my own "pastor," Harold Warner. Instead I thought I could enlighten the
        > people in my church as to the underlying true nature of the fellowship,
        > and that they would help me to rebuild the church in a true biblical
        > pattern. Now that I have the perspective of having gone through that, I
        > realize that in most cases that is futile. Just because the pastor sees
        > through the fellowship doesn't mean that the people in his church will
        > see it. That's why I really don't blame a pastor who has had enough of
        > Wayman's World for just asking for some severance pay and bailing. As
        > it was, Wayman was able to split my church with the help of a key inside
        > man.
        >
        > One interesting perspective of time that I have is related to those I
        > have encountered on these message boards over the years. When a person
        > first gets out, they will often have all kinds of ideas about the
        > direction they are going to go in. Most say they will continue to be
        > Christian and frequently attend church. What I have learned, however,
        > as I have observed ex members over the years is that what they believe
        > and think when they first get out is usually not anything like what they
        > will believe in 5 or 10 years. There are a few exceptions, but for the
        > most part there is quite a contrast between what they are saying and
        > thinking 6 months after they exited Wayman's World, and what they are
        > saying and thinking a few years later. There even seems to be quite a
        > few people who were part of it for years who virtually forget the whole
        > thing and go back to what they consider to be a much more normal life.
        > They drop the whole religious trip and it is rare, if ever, that they
        > speak about the fellowship experience, and the getting out experience
        > that they went through.
        >
        > Still others find themselves endorsing a very different brand of
        > Christianity. Some adopt the forbidden belief in eternal security. Of
        > course, I am referring to it being forbidden by the teachings of
        > Waymanism. Some have a Christian faith which does not include church
        > attendance, or feeling forced to tithe or burn. Some have a very quiet
        > faith. They still believe that Jesus is the Savior, and that the Bible
        > is the Word of God, but they more or less keep it to themselves. Some
        > develop non Christian beliefs in the religious or spiritual sense.
        > Still others just become outright atheist.
        >
        > Looking back over the years, I gain quite a perspective on a lot of
        > these issues. If I live long enough, it well be fascinating to consider
        > where people are at after they have been out for decades. I am
        > approaching 2 decades of being out, myself. I also wonder about those
        > who will get out after being in it for 30+ years. That will be a trip
        > for them, no doubt. People getting out at 40 years old, after being
        > raised in it, would also be something to watch. And I wonder if any of
        > these hardcore Waymanite ex leaders, who are doing Wayman 2, the sequel,
        > will ever really renounce that whole religious trip that they learned
        > from The Little Big Man? That would be something.
        >
        > Shalom
        > Ken
        >

      • kenhaining777
        It is really strange to think about how I saw things at one time in my life, and how I see them now. I was poking around youtube, and I decided to do a search
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 3, 2016
          It is really strange to think about how I saw things at one time in my life, and how I see them now.  I was poking around youtube, and I decided to do a search on former fellowship leader, Ernie Lister.  I knew there was a recording of a meeting at a Foursquare conference where he was one of four speakers, in 1978.  Sure enough, there it was.  Right next to it, in the list of videos, were a couple of videos of Ernie Lister making Navaho hand crafted jewelry in Japan. 

          1978 Foursquare Convention -Pastor Wayman Mittchell

           

           

          アーニーリスター Ernie Lister × MALAIKA

           



          アーニーリスター Ernie Lister × MALAIKA 2015

           

           

          I listened to that recording from 1978 up to the point where Ernie had finished speaking.  I also listened to Harold Warner and Jack Harris.  I heard Wayman's introduction.  He spoke about Ron Burrell being in Australia playing with his music group, Eden. 

          I marveled at how unimpressive it all sounded.  Actually, I thought Ernie was pretty good, in the context of being a Waymanite.  I found it strange to listen to Jack Harris as it had been revealed to me, by Greg Johnson, that Harris had an affair with a young gal in the Nogales, Arizona church.  It convinces me more than ever that for most of these guys it is all just an act.

          None of us, who were in The Fellowship in 1978, would have imagined these other videos of Ernie Lister, where he is showing off his craft of jewelry making in Japan.  This is one of the realities of The Fellowship.  A red hot member of Waymanland today could be far, far removed from it in the future. 

          Ernie Lister is probably the most well adjusted ex leader of The Fellowship.  When I spoke to him, after he left The Fellowship, he told me how it happened.  He had been ordered to resign the Gallup, New Mexico church in Spring of 1990.  One of his own disciples, Dale Reece, was to take his place.  He had to agree to attend the Prescott church for two years for what is called redirection, and then he might be considered to be sent out again.  Ernie told me that during that time he saw through the whole deal. His wife left after just a few months, but he kept his commitment to stay the two years.  By the time the two years were over, he was thoroughly convinced that The Fellowship is just another religious system.  He returned to his Native American beliefs, and he started his own business, making Navaho jewelry.  He has been very successful.  You would never know he was once one of that group of men who went to leadership meetings. 

          I would love to have a time machine, go back and pick up some of those members of the fellowship from the 70s, and show them what really was going to happen.  It turned out to be nothing like what we thought it would be.

          I watched one of the videos with Ernie making Jewelry in Japan.  At one point he scratched "Made in Japan" on one piece.  He still has his sense of humor.   

          Peace and Prosperity
          Ken


           


        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.