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Re: Ron Jones and Victory World Outreach

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  • kenhaining777
    rgonzalez70 said: [Can anyone tell me if this is a healthy fellowship?] Last I heard it was pretty much a copy of Wayman s fellowship minus the movie/TV rules.
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 1, 2012
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      rgonzalez70 said:

      [Can anyone tell me if this is a healthy fellowship?]

      Last I heard it was pretty much a copy of Wayman's fellowship minus the movie/TV rules.  The demand for tithes, the shunning of ex members, and other such things are still in place.  I also heard that Ron put his son and son in law on staff.  That sort of thing really tells a lot about the whole trip. 

      Ron Jones is a much nicer guy than Wayman in a lot of ways, but the type of religion that he enforces is really the same as Wayman's with a few minor differences.  I would not recommend going to his church.  Anyone else know anything about Ron Jones and Victory World Outreach?  Feel free to comment. 

      Ken






    • its_just_me_nancy
      So, it IS a break off of CFM. I thought the name sounded familiar. I would advise Ms/Mr Gonzalez to leave if they have already become a part of this church,
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 1, 2012
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        So, it IS a break off of CFM. I thought the name sounded familiar.

        I would advise Ms/Mr Gonzalez to leave if they have already become a part of this church, and if they have not, to stay away from it.

        Shalom, - Nancy

        --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > rgonzalez70 said:
        >
        > [Can anyone tell me if this is a healthy fellowship?]
        >
        > Last I heard it was pretty much a copy of Wayman's fellowship minus the
        > movie/TV rules. The demand for tithes, the shunning of ex members, and
        > other such things are still in place. I also heard that Ron put his son
        > and son in law on staff. That sort of thing really tells a lot about
        > the whole trip.
        >
        > Ron Jones is a much nicer guy than Wayman in a lot of ways, but the type
        > of religion that he enforces is really the same as Wayman's with a few
        > minor differences. I would not recommend going to his church. Anyone
        > else know anything about Ron Jones and Victory World Outreach? Feel
        > free to comment.
        >
        > Ken
        >

      • jude_andrewz
        Ken, You said, Ron Jones is a much nicer guy than Wayman in a lot of ways and I have to agree with you. He rules his little kingdom with an iron fist -
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 1, 2012
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          Ken,

          You said, "Ron Jones is a much nicer guy than Wayman in a lot of ways" and I have to agree with you. He rules his little kingdom with an iron fist - something he learned first hand from Wayman and his own experiences after the Exodus of 1990 he and Jack Harris led when a 100 or so churches pulled out of Mitchell's CFM organization. By April of that year Ron & Jack held a conference in Colorado Springs where quite a few of the pastors with the larger congregations met.

          From what I was told Ron & Jack were going to partner together in their renegade ex-CFM movement to create their own fellowship that they patterned after Wayman's. It wasn't long before disagreements caused Ron and Jack to part company, by the end of the year with Jack eventually joining up with Larry & Mike Neville's Praise Chapel group of churches, which was nearly a 100 more churches which pulled out from Mitchell by mid-1990 and went independant as they had originally started in 1970 in Mayfield, CA before joining up with Mitch.

          Ron Jones had also pastored in the Assemblies of God in the mid to late 60's (He had went to AOG's Evangel College in Springfield, MO at their headquarters) and was recruited by Mitchell about the same time the Neville's were around 1970 to join up with him. His AOG church eventually pulled out of the AOG when Jones joined Foursquare under Mitch. By the end of 1990 several pastors in Jones "New Beginnings Fellowship" pulled out from him because they smelled the Waymanism. One pastor point blank told him, "Why did you leave Mitchell, to get away from the control or to gain control of your own fellowship with you running things just like Mitch?"

          A few pastors actually went crawling back to Mitch who welcomed them with open arms just long enough to get the keys to their church and then these betraying pastors were kicked out on the street as an example of what happens to those who betray the Mighty Mitch.

          Since that time Jones has led the charge of former CFM pastors who are preaching the so-called Prosperity Gospel or a version of it that includes the usual loyalty to the 'fellowship' message, mandantory tithing and expectations of each member to be present with check book in hand every time the church door opens. Larry Huch has been on this path for years now and can be seen & heard with his wife Tiz who looks like a cross between Tammy Faye Bakker and Jan Crouch with all the stupid makeup and weird costumes she wears.

          Last I heard Jones doesn't even plant churches anymore and all the churches that pulled out with him & Jack in 1990 have left him and joined up with Praise Chapel or back to Foursquare or the AOG. Jones tried to hang on to them by intimidation but he didn't have what Mitch has when it comes down to it. I have heard though he won't tolerate disgruntled people in his church who question his teachings, ethics or philosophy of ministry. Word has it he has grabbed people who voiced a complaint by the ear and tossed them out on the street himself.

          It would be interesting to make a list of all the pastors who pulled out in 1990 in the initial Exodus and the departure of the Neville's churches, the latter of which were made up of a great number of churches in the Philipines, Australia and the UK. It would be interesting to see where they are today.

          BTW - Somewhere I have a copy of two films Jones had made of tent meetings held in Africa in 1990 it's interesting because he had come to our church and showed a film of Reinhard Bonnke doing the same thing in the same area, then showed his films which showed natives getting saved. These were poor poverty stricken people who he never would see a dime from in tithes even if someone planted a church there.

          I have to say I think Jones had his heart in the right place at least in this instance. He loaned me the three films to make a copy of and he told me to share them with anyone who would watch them. He said, "It's crazy, you just step up under that tent and preach the Gospel and they've never heard it before and they get saved in droves. In America you can preach until you're blue in the face and only a few respond. In Africa they have nothing and respond en masse and they start falling out like waves of wheat in the wind - nobody pushes them over and nobody is there to catch them. Then they start speaking in tongues and nobody has even laid hands on them - I didn't even preach about the Holy Spirit or mention tongues. They get healed instantaneously and I didn't even call for the sick to come for prayer. I seen blind eyes healed and limbs grow out all of a sudden. They JUMP out where there was no limb before! I seen 'em spit up cancers right where they stood. They just start coughing, you think their gonna choke to death before they get it up and then this mass of stuff just spews out of them and they are well from that moment on. I've seen their old ones restored where they can walk, deaf ears opened and nobody slapped em on the head or put oil on their foreheads. Some of them are possessed and they manifest evil right there in the crowd. I said, "Devil, come out right now in Jesus name," and they fall limp when the spirits leave them. Then God begins to work on them and they leap for joy when they hear that name. A baby that had died the mother had carried around with her for a couple of days, she refused to bury her child, she stood there saying His name over and over and the baby came back to life and started crying. Her whole family fell on their faces. All I can say is this is God. It sure isn't man - It's sure isn't me or anyone else. I never seen anything like it before in all the years I went overseas in other meetings!"

          I told Ron about my uncle who was in the hospital getting a blood treatment for his cancer. The Dr's had given him a year or so with the treatments. Ron said, "Take me up to the hospital, I think the Lord will heal that uncle of yours if he believes." We went up there and Jones prayed for my uncle and he lived another 5 or 6 years.

          Jude

          --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > rgonzalez70 said:
          >
          > [Can anyone tell me if this is a healthy fellowship?]
          >
          > Last I heard it was pretty much a copy of Wayman's fellowship minus the
          > movie/TV rules. The demand for tithes, the shunning of ex members, and
          > other such things are still in place. I also heard that Ron put his son
          > and son in law on staff. That sort of thing really tells a lot about
          > the whole trip.
          >
          > Ron Jones is a much nicer guy than Wayman in a lot of ways, but the type
          > of religion that he enforces is really the same as Wayman's with a few
          > minor differences. I would not recommend going to his church. Anyone
          > else know anything about Ron Jones and Victory World Outreach? Feel
          > free to comment.
          >
          > Ken
          >
        • kenhaining777
          Jude said: [From what I was told Ron & Jack were going to partner together in their renegade ex-CFM movement to create their own fellowship that they patterned
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 4, 2012
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            Jude said:

            [From what I was told Ron & Jack were going to partner together in their renegade
            ex-CFM movement to create their own fellowship that they patterned after
            Wayman's. It wasn't long before disagreements caused Ron and Jack to part
            company, by the end of the year with Jack eventually joining up with Larry &
            Mike Neville's Praise Chapel group of churches, which was nearly a 100 more
            churches which pulled out from Mitchell by mid-1990 and went independant as they
            had originally started in 1970 in Mayfield, CA before joining up with Mitch.]

            I was involved with Ron Jones a number of months after I left the fellowship back in 1994, so I asked him about some of these events and relationships. 

            There was no real falling out between Jack and Ron.  There was severe disorientation for these men, along with Coney Orosco, who pulled out the Flagstaff church and went with Jack and Ron.  They really didn't have a plan and were throwing different stuff together.  Many of the pastors, who pulled out with these guys, looked to Ron Jones to be the new leader of this new make shift fellowship.  Jones expended massive resources trying to save a lot of churches and pastors while his own church was being ripped apart.  He finally had to concentrate on rebuilding his church, and the pastors and churches that pulled out in the 1990 exodus were mostly destroyed.  While Ron made the effort to try and help these pastors and churches, Wayman was working overtime to destroy them, and Wayman had a lot more resources, along with loyalist pastors and leaders who would help Wayman do in the "rebels." 

            Harris was under quite a lot of stress with all this, and Wayman was definitely out to get him.  As a virtual lone ranger pastor, with a renegade church, he was under the gun.  He made an interesting decision and gave the Rancho Cucamonga church to Larry Nevelle.  As the Nevelles had their own sizable fellowship, largely centered in California, the church now had the protection, if you will, of Praise Chapel.  This thwarted Wayman's attempt to destroy the church, and infuriated him.  As far as he was concerned, the Nevelles stole his church.  However, Wayman had managed to get a couple of Praise Chapel churches to forsake the Nevelles and go with Waymanchrist, which was seen as good, holy, and righteous, of course. 

            Jack Harris then became a charter member of Praise Chapel, and these days he is doing his religious trip in Iraq, or at least he was still there last I heard.  He is on Facebook if you ever want to look him up.  At one point he was given a church in Colorado, north of Colorado Springs, Ron Jones being in Colorado Springs.  I can't recall if the church was Jones' church or one of Praise Chapel's. However, after a number of years the church completely fell apart and Jack went into the evangelist role.  He seems to actually be involved in what might be called true evangelism as he is out in a foreign country trying to make converts to his brand of Christianity.

            Jones seems to be completely into his own trip.  I am not sure if he still does conferences or plants churches at all.  I know that when Wayman nearly toppled his church that Ron did start bringing home some of the couples he was supporting on the field, as Wayman splitting his church had seriously impaired his finances.  That is, naturally, part of Wayman's plan for any rebel pastor and church. 

            This illustrates, for me at least, the crazy pattern of organized Christian religion.  This kind of stuff, with different factions and sects of Christianity, has been going on since the religion started.  Here are men who were part of the same "movement" becoming enemies and viewing each other as evil.  I have to wonder at it all.  There seems to be precious few religious groups or independent churches that just teach the Bible and don't go on these psycho religious trips.  Guys who used to hang out with each other all the time are now alienated from each other over religious differences, and much of those differences have to do with who controls the resources.  The whole 1990 split was over Wayman's tithe and offering pyramid.  Wayman would rather destroy churches and pastors who refuse to pay him tribute than let them go in peace, and that tells you all you need to know about the man. He is not out to save the world and give them the gospel, but out to build and maintain his own religious world. He has been suing a church in Fiji, which dared to pull out of his fellowship, for over a decade, just to punish them for daring to leave his kingdom. And still his loyalists defend him. 

            It would be fascinating to get a group of these men who are in and out of the fellowship in a room together.  How long could they last before being at each other's throats?  As far as know, there is no animosity between Jones and Harris.  But who knows?  A lot of things change, and religion breeds hate, many times.  Someone wrote that even Bill Coolidge and Hank Houghton don't have anything to do with each other any more.  It gets so bizarre over time. 

            Live Long and Prosper
            Ken


               
          • jude_andrewz
            Ken, Maybe a falling out was the incorrect word to use to describe the breakdown of the relationship between Ron Jones & Jack Harris but there was definitely
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 4, 2012
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              Ken,

              Maybe a 'falling out' was the incorrect word to use to describe the breakdown of the relationship between Ron Jones & Jack Harris but there was definitely a parting of the ways at some point - and from what I've been told you are right again as usual in that Jones is pretty much doing his own thing. Harris doesn't have a thing to do with Jones and as far as I know none of the Praise Chapel pastors do at this late date now over 20 years since the great Exodus of 1990.

              I agree with you that Jack Harris seems to be involved in true evangelism and for the right reasons there in Iraq and other neighboring countries he has been active in planting churches since the fall of Saddamn Hussein in 2003. (actually he was in-country from what I heard before this) I personally approve of what Jack has done there, but I wish it wasn't under the banner or umbrella of Praise Chapel which is really just another Mitchellite church organization. Of course the churches Harris has planted there are never going to be a part of that tithing pyramid to Mama Chapel back in the States. And it's good that they won't. Churches planted in the field in a 3rd World Nation should never be about sending money back to the coffers of American church organizations where the leaders and pastors live in splendor, drive new SUV's, and have great big churches filled with opulence.

              I understand that Harris has to be a part of some church organization theoretically to receive funding from home to continue with his efforts (or does he? I don't really agree with that...) so in exchange for assistance on the field he gives them their due dillegence and they get to gloat about "what they are doing for God" and on that basis can rake in even more money in those big offerings taken by Harry Hills and other likeminded 'tithemasters' within the organization. (These guys didn't get that way via Mitchell - they were already tainted that direction when Mitch found them ie the Neville's via Foursquare & the PCOG, Jones via the AOG, Hills via AOG, Harris via his previous affiliations etc.)

              One thing that comes to mind about the variations of these stories and how the facts are presented is that most of these guys spent years skewing truth to their congregations, telling them just a little bit of the facts and spinning mucf of the story to their favor 'for the greater good' which is what all Cultists do. In that, Jones will tell you one thing about how it all went down and then turn around and tell a quite different story to another pastor or a minor player like me, who for all practical purposes I was a late comer into the deal having walked years before after seeing the legalism for what it was, then coming around much later getting fairly involved and active in a number of ministries in a former CFM church.

              I was sometimes brought into discussions that I thought were irrelevant to me and I would have rather been somewhere else at the time but looking back I saw and heard things that as the years have rolled by, and having read these forums over the last decade it raises HUGE red flags when I have seen and heard many things contrary to what many of them are saying or have told others.

              On top of that I have actually queried a couple of them over some of these matters and they have let me know right away they didn't appreciate my inquiry into the matter. They've told me it's none of my business.

              Some of my best friends over the years were active in ministry in CFM and the post Fellowship split that loomed a cloud of purple haze over some of their eyes insomuch that they repeated history all over again, signing up with some man, on his mission, backing his agenda, paying into it all over again just like when Mitch was at the helm. I have seen some of these people beaten up, eaten up, chewed up and spat out on the mat for dead and they had nobody to turn to. They bore their souls to me simply because I would listen and because I needed a deeper understanding for what I perceived as evil 30+ years ago when I refused to sell my soul to the devil in Prescott. I needed that affirmation that I was right or at least that I had some discernment. Somehow I knew this thing was evil from the get go, but as always I was branded a rebel, a disgruntled malcontent, a church hopping neer do well, and a shit disturber.

              It's funny, beginning about 1981-82 I was off and on in a small church in So CA that never got much bigger than 100 people. The first pastor who planted the mess had failed thrice before but kept returning to the area for some reason. I never understood his draw to the area. Betweeen two sister communities less than 3 miles apart this guy tried so hard to get it going but because the larger of the two towns had two Foursquare churches within city limits Foursquare would not allow him to plant near them and forbade him to proselyte from them. Of course there was no threat of that because the two churches were filled with older folks who were not the target demographic of The Door.

              Then this guy enlisted a friend of mine who was another disgruntled malcontent and a church hopper to help him get the church plant off the ground. One thing that helped was an out-reach band was put together to play the park in the big town one Saturday where posters, flyers and tracts were everywhere. It was like, "Oh, wow! Another new church, in a storefront? Cool!" and all these young people showed up and heard the spiel - "all the other churches are impotent and passe, none of them are dedicated, and then the hook, God expects loyalty so get rid of your TV, be here every night, bring your money and get rid of it too, we'll take it off your hands because it's evil unless spent on the Lord's work... etc" and from there it exploded.

              Then a couple years down the road that original pastor left to plant a new work elsewhere. A new pastor came from Prescott having been redirected from a previous plant effort. This pastor kept things rolling musically and preached long and loud about the evils of rock music - yet the church band played rock music with Jesus lyrics. He was such a name dropper I suspected he was at the very least a subscriber to Rolling Stone Magazine. He finally left about 3 or 4 years later and went back to AZ. Another pastor from AZ took his place, one who was less musically motivated.

              Within a couple of years this pastor was persuaded to pull the church in the January 1990 split from Mitchell by Ron Jones who convinced him to sign on with him and his loosley affiliated group of former CFM pastors alligned with him & Harris based in Colorado Springs.

              Upon pulling out the church. the former pastor (2#) was sent from Prescott to break up the rebel church. He rented a store front east of town and called it Potter's House instead of The Door. Meanwhile The Door changed it's name to New Beginnings with it's new found affiliation with Ron Jones. The first pastor who planted it refused to go there and attempt to break it up but the 2nd one was more than willing to go to former parishioners homes, their places of business and employment or call them on the phone at all hours of the night and even went so far as to accost many them in the church parking lot with a team of "church busters" aimed at breaking up the former fellowship rebel church by any means. The pastor stood his ground and told everyone, the choice is yours and the majority stayed with him. Many vaccilated over the next year or so and even longer.

              By 1996 the 2nd pastor who headed up the 'church busters' squad had had enough of Mitchell and he closed his Potter's House fellowship church, let the lease go on the building space and rented another one across town starting an independant work he called 'First Love'. He remained un-affilated for years and had entertained returning to Foursquare, even having Dr Holland out to preach and visit until Foursquare dumped him (unfairly I am told) and then this former CFM pastor hooked up with Praise Chapel but the affiliation didn't last long, maybe a year or two, until he merged his church with another Pentecostal church similar to the Assemblies of God only much smaller. He became a co-pastor of a merged church built out of a church plant that had just barely made a ripple in the neighborhood. Soon the two pastors were at an impetus with the handwriting on the wall that one of them had to leave or they had to divide and exist separately. Whether they drew straws or tossed a coin, I am unsure but the other pastor left and the former CFM pastor remains there. The New Beginnings church left Jones by 1992 and went independant changing the name to New Life Chapel until the pastor merged his church with a failing church whose pastor had moved or died but had yet to replace him, with a big building and dwindling numbers they merged and he became the pastor of the two calling the church New Life Bible Church.

              By the new millenium there were about 4 or 5 former CFM pastors in the same area NONE of which had much to do with one another. Some had been very close yet that didn't matter after the split ups. Over the years they have interacted at times with other churches in the area but for the most part they stay to themselves. I think for pastor #3 it's too much for him to think of Pastor #2 coming to his church and trying to split his church with a church busters' team trying to start a fight in the parking lot one Sunday morning.

              None of them have anyrhing to do with Jones or Harris or Mitchell of course. They all have a skewed telling of these events depending on their audience. Mitchell is seldom if ever mentioned. None of them will list CFM or Potter's House on their resume or list Mitchell as a former associate. Most have a sour taste in their mouths for Foursquare and the AOG, PCOG etc. They generally look down on Calvary Chapel who had their start as did they via a former Foursquare pastor who left to start his own work. None of these pastors send out couples to plant churches or to pioneer ministry efforts in the field. None of them hold city wide evangelism via outreach or witness teams or parking lot concerts the way they did in the old days. Hardly any of them pass out tracts and there's very few of them who have Christian rock bands playing rock music covers with their all too often lame Christian message lyrics and fewer still play their own songs.

              Some of these guys have memory lapses and convenient amnesia. A couple of them I mentioned the fellowship or Wayman Mitchell to and they insisted they had never heard of Mitchell or the Fellowship!

              Once I said that Potter's House was a Cult and the person I was talking to immediately jumped to their defense as well as their own, declaring they had never been in a Cult, demanding that I retract the statement declaring that they were never deceived and that my accusation was unfounded, making ME the enemy!

              I find it very interesting that many of them read Ron Jones self published 'Prosperity Gospel' teaching books, while others watch Larry & Tiz Huch on satelite TV Christian channels. Some still have the Ron Simpkins books published by the Fellowship on Potter's Press in Prescott in their personal library in their office or study at the church or in their book cases at their homes.

              What's even weirder is the way these guys have treated me over the years. When they were in the Fellowship I was but a scalp for them. Later I was treated like a tool by both sides lobbying for my loyalty. Neither of them have ever understood my loyalty to the faith in spite of refusing to be loyal to Mitchell, them, or any other work of man. My state of 'free agencny' has been something they could never wrap their heads around and they have accused me of many things over the years because of it. I've always been independant and never a joiner or a lemming.

              I agree with you too about so few of them actually teach the Bible - IF any of them ever have. Most are too busy teaching the denominational hardline that has come down from headquarters whether it's Angeles Temple or Potter's House # 1 in Prescott where the Pope of Mitchelldom resides or the head of some church oganization led by some rebel former Mitchell follower demanding tithes, perfect attendance at their meetings, or the relinquishing of endless amounts of resources be they tangible or physical in terms of money, goods or energy, time, talent and sworn allegiance via ever presence when the door is open.

              The fact is NONE of these things are what being a true Christian is all about and none of them are demanded in the Bible by Jesus or any of the Apostles. Instead of preaching the Bible and the TRUE simplicity of the REAL Gospel they hammer everyone on all these points on top of get rid of your TV, stay away from everyone outside the Fellowship and so on with a bunch of rules, legalism, roll call and gold stars and check marks by names on ledgers where tithe and donation records are kept by bean counters who use the figures to keep the do-gooder's and dreamer's in the church in line. None of this is about TRUE faith yet the majority compromises in this way.

              All Ron Jones knows is what he learned at Evangel College (and from Mitchell) and that is to preach the tithe, hammer on missions, hammer on attendance, hammer on "God's little bless me club" and then wait for the money to roll in. It's a far cry from what Jesus commanded in the Great Commission and from what Paul, Peter, James & John majored on in their Epistles to the Church.

              Harris comes closer by far to the original seed in his work in Iraq but lest he forget his roots he has to come back to the States once or twice a year to freshen up his message with more of the same to the home church congregations at least within his denominational affiliation.

              Everyone keeps telling me that it all runs by the flow of the almighty dollar but when I read the New Testament I don't see that. Jack's work in Iraq is proof of that. A few bucks from Praise Chapel church offerings and missions pledges have helped I am sure, but there is a precedent for relying God's provision by faith where no provision seems possible rather than hitting up the Saints or relying on the flesh - which is works, legalism and not truly of faith. Even Paul refused to accept offerings and James seemed to have forgotten how to take one, and all of them including Peter and John never drop the tithing line on anyone!

              How can this be? What it be like is these modern day pastors don't preach the Bible!

              Most I have talked to about this admit that they do not, but justify it by claiming IF they did preach the TRUTH about such things as tithing, church attendance, alcohol, divorce and remarriage etc that come Sunday morning they would have half a congregation, the other half at home hung over or simply decided to stay at home and worship as a New Testament family did in the Early Church as per depicted in the Acts and as per Jesus setting the example of the home church family unit reflected in the Jewish observance of Passover held in homes, led by a family patriarch, as represented when the 12 Tribes were captives of Pharoah in Egypt. These same pastors have confided in me that they would be out of a job should they begin to teach the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth because they would not have money to pay the electric bill or the rent on the church. Their denominational headquarters is not about to support them - they are about receiving money FROM the churches NOT dole it out! The truth is that most churches cannot stand the truth hence they seldom even open the Bible. If they did they'd be constantly avoiding certain passages and simply not telling the truth about the meanings of many of them they do address.

              Church today in these times is all about one thing: Mammon! The Love of Money! Show me a church that doesn't LOVE Money! I'll show you one that has no 501(c)3 tax exemption status, no yellow page ads and no business telephone line. Show me one church that doesn't love $ and I'll show you a church where the pastor works and never takes an offering much less ever mentioning the tithe. Oh, would to God that it truly was this way in the churches.

              Of course these things can never be because churches have become these voting blocks focused on social activism, and political influence. Even Wayman Mitchell has a Republican agenda. Google his political donations sometime and his party affiliation. What did Jesus really teach about this very thing? Of course no one really believes what He said. Just ask ANY pastor!

              Jude


              --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jude said:
              >
              > [From what I was told Ron & Jack were going to partner together in their
              > renegade
              > ex-CFM movement to create their own fellowship that they patterned after
              > Wayman's. It wasn't long before disagreements caused Ron and Jack to
              > part
              > company, by the end of the year with Jack eventually joining up with
              > Larry &
              > Mike Neville's Praise Chapel group of churches, which was nearly a 100
              > more
              > churches which pulled out from Mitchell by mid-1990 and went independant
              > as they
              > had originally started in 1970 in Mayfield, CA before joining up with
              > Mitch.]
              >
              > I was involved with Ron Jones a number of months after I left the
              > fellowship back in 1994, so I asked him about some of these events and
              > relationships.
              >
              > There was no real falling out between Jack and Ron. There was severe
              > disorientation for these men, along with Coney Orosco, who pulled out
              > the Flagstaff church and went with Jack and Ron. They really didn't
              > have a plan and were throwing different stuff together. Many of the
              > pastors, who pulled out with these guys, looked to Ron Jones to be the
              > new leader of this new make shift fellowship. Jones expended massive
              > resources trying to save a lot of churches and pastors while his own
              > church was being ripped apart. He finally had to concentrate on
              > rebuilding his church, and the pastors and churches that pulled out in
              > the 1990 exodus were mostly destroyed. While Ron made the effort to try
              > and help these pastors and churches, Wayman was working overtime to
              > destroy them, and Wayman had a lot more resources, along with loyalist
              > pastors and leaders who would help Wayman do in the "rebels."
              >
              > Harris was under quite a lot of stress with all this, and Wayman was
              > definitely out to get him. As a virtual lone ranger pastor, with a
              > renegade church, he was under the gun. He made an interesting decision
              > and gave the Rancho Cucamonga church to Larry Nevelle. As the Nevelles
              > had their own sizable fellowship, largely centered in California, the
              > church now had the protection, if you will, of Praise Chapel. This
              > thwarted Wayman's attempt to destroy the church, and infuriated him. As
              > far as he was concerned, the Nevelles stole his church. However, Wayman
              > had managed to get a couple of Praise Chapel churches to forsake the
              > Nevelles and go with Waymanchrist, which was seen as good, holy, and
              > righteous, of course.
              >
              > Jack Harris then became a charter member of Praise Chapel, and these
              > days he is doing his religious trip in Iraq, or at least he was still
              > there last I heard. He is on Facebook if you ever want to look him up.
              > At one point he was given a church in Colorado, north of Colorado
              > Springs, Ron Jones being in Colorado Springs. I can't recall if the
              > church was Jones' church or one of Praise Chapel's. However, after a
              > number of years the church completely fell apart and Jack went into the
              > evangelist role. He seems to actually be involved in what might be
              > called true evangelism as he is out in a foreign country trying to make
              > converts to his brand of Christianity.
              >
              > Jones seems to be completely into his own trip. I am not sure if he
              > still does conferences or plants churches at all. I know that when
              > Wayman nearly toppled his church that Ron did start bringing home some
              > of the couples he was supporting on the field, as Wayman splitting his
              > church had seriously impaired his finances. That is, naturally, part of
              > Wayman's plan for any rebel pastor and church.
              >
              > This illustrates, for me at least, the crazy pattern of organized
              > Christian religion. This kind of stuff, with different factions and
              > sects of Christianity, has been going on since the religion started.
              > Here are men who were part of the same "movement" becoming enemies and
              > viewing each other as evil. I have to wonder at it all. There seems to
              > be precious few religious groups or independent churches that just teach
              > the Bible and don't go on these psycho religious trips. Guys who used
              > to hang out with each other all the time are now alienated from each
              > other over religious differences, and much of those differences have to
              > do with who controls the resources. The whole 1990 split was over
              > Wayman's tithe and offering pyramid. Wayman would rather destroy
              > churches and pastors who refuse to pay him tribute than let them go in
              > peace, and that tells you all you need to know about the man. He is not
              > out to save the world and give them the gospel, but out to build and
              > maintain his own religious world. He has been suing a church in Fiji,
              > which dared to pull out of his fellowship, for over a decade, just to
              > punish them for daring to leave his kingdom. And still his loyalists
              > defend him.
              >
              > It would be fascinating to get a group of these men who are in and out
              > of the fellowship in a room together. How long could they last before
              > being at each other's throats? As far as know, there is no animosity
              > between Jones and Harris. But who knows? A lot of things change, and
              > religion breeds hate, many times. Someone wrote that even Bill Coolidge
              > and Hank Houghton don't have anything to do with each other any more.
              > It gets so bizarre over time.
              >
              > Live Long and Prosper
              > Ken
              >
            • cigarscoffeeandbeer
              Jude Thanks for the long read. Convinced now - more than I ever was - that leaving was the best decision. A couple of things have stuck out from what you and
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 5, 2012
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                Jude

                Thanks for the long read.

                Convinced now - more than I ever was - that leaving was the best decision.

                A couple of things have stuck out from what you and Ken have discussed.

                As much as I want to be an intellectual, I'm an artist so sometimes the thought is there but I have trouble articulating but the gist is this ...

                1.Personality cult.  
                I start reading these historical chronologies that you and Ken and some of the others have posted and I start getting lost with all the names, and the names seem to be the big deal, i.e. these guys are all about selling their name and their show. 

                2. Religious Professionals
                Not that Ken posted specifically in this post - but the concept he has relayed and you (Jude) also relayed was the concept of not needing a religious professional in your life to help you along your spiritual journey. After reading this last post the point could never have been made more pronounced than ever.

                The concept that we as a human race have seemed to a large extent needed some shaman or religious expert to guide us on our journey - seems more flawed than ever now.

                I think if we as a species are to evolve upwards - then direct contact by anyone to "The Source" (as Dr. Wayne Dyer calls it)  only makes common sense. Intermediaries need not apply.

                And yet, in spite of my contempt for Western Christianity, the core message of the raw gospel, of the real Jesus - is that simple. 

                It takes help to misunderstand it, and why we seem so eager to run after the flawed "help" is part of what pisses me off about my own stupid desire to seek such help. Someone tells us we need that help, and we fall for it.

                I've gone through my own twisted journey of church hopping, a bit of a "seeker",  and always wanting to believe in something higher.  We just don't want to believe that it all goes dark when we die, and that while we're here we can tap into something greater. It's such a simple hope of mankind.

                My journey was not started in church, it's just something that has always been there. Watched rockets taking off on TV as a child, the moon landings, and so on ... entertained a lot of sci-fi and ufology all my life - something inside knows there is something higher, and all those religious folk were right there with all their franchises to "give me the answer" - when in fact they only had a few fragments to a very large puzzle.

                Like I said, looking back, untouched by any CFM crap now for almost 20 years, I am thankful I made one good decision in my life, to leave. 

                Ken & Jude- I know you guys probably feel like maybe you lost some time, that you invested more than a lot of us in the whole mess. Yo ugot in deep, deeper than many of us.

                Maybe the consolation prize would be for you to write a book about these things, sell it and cash out and at least make a few bucks and truly help people. People are willing to pay huge money to psychotherapists and medical professionals if they know there is a cure or treatment, and they pay good money for books with answers, knowing full well the author profits. 

                I've done a little writing professionally over the years, and whenever I get into the writing realm, one rule always pops out, "write what you know" and the authenticity will be genuine, and you will have an audience.

                Thank you both and the rest of you for putting out these historical perspectives that shed light on this organization, and others like it that have taken the good faith of good people and trashed it to their own profit.




                --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, jude_andrewz <no_reply@...> wrote:
                >
                > Ken,
                >
                > Maybe a 'falling out' was the incorrect word to use to describe the breakdown of the relationship between Ron Jones & Jack Harris but there was definitely a parting of the ways at some point - and from what I've been told you are right again as usual in that Jones is pretty much doing his own thing. Harris doesn't have a thing to do with Jones and as far as I know none of the Praise Chapel pastors do at this late date now over 20 years since the great Exodus of 1990.
                >
                > I agree with you that Jack Harris seems to be involved in true evangelism and for the right reasons there in Iraq and other neighboring countries he has been active in planting churches since the fall of Saddamn Hussein in 2003. (actually he was in-country from what I heard before this) I personally approve of what Jack has done there, but I wish it wasn't under the banner or umbrella of Praise Chapel which is really just another Mitchellite church organization. Of course the churches Harris has planted there are never going to be a part of that tithing pyramid to Mama Chapel back in the States. And it's good that they won't. Churches planted in the field in a 3rd World Nation should never be about sending money back to the coffers of American church organizations where the leaders and pastors live in splendor, drive new SUV's, and have great big churches filled with opulence.
                >
                > I understand that Harris has to be a part of some church organization theoretically to receive funding from home to continue with his efforts (or does he? I don't really agree with that...) so in exchange for assistance on the field he gives them their due dillegence and they get to gloat about "what they are doing for God" and on that basis can rake in even more money in those big offerings taken by Harry Hills and other likeminded 'tithemasters' within the organization. (These guys didn't get that way via Mitchell - they were already tainted that direction when Mitch found them ie the Neville's via Foursquare & the PCOG, Jones via the AOG, Hills via AOG, Harris via his previous affiliations etc.)
                >
                > One thing that comes to mind about the variations of these stories and how the facts are presented is that most of these guys spent years skewing truth to their congregations, telling them just a little bit of the facts and spinning mucf of the story to their favor 'for the greater good' which is what all Cultists do. In that, Jones will tell you one thing about how it all went down and then turn around and tell a quite different story to another pastor or a minor player like me, who for all practical purposes I was a late comer into the deal having walked years before after seeing the legalism for what it was, then coming around much later getting fairly involved and active in a number of ministries in a former CFM church.
                >
                > I was sometimes brought into discussions that I thought were irrelevant to me and I would have rather been somewhere else at the time but looking back I saw and heard things that as the years have rolled by, and having read these forums over the last decade it raises HUGE red flags when I have seen and heard many things contrary to what many of them are saying or have told others.
                >
                > On top of that I have actually queried a couple of them over some of these matters and they have let me know right away they didn't appreciate my inquiry into the matter. They've told me it's none of my business.
                >
                > Some of my best friends over the years were active in ministry in CFM and the post Fellowship split that loomed a cloud of purple haze over some of their eyes insomuch that they repeated history all over again, signing up with some man, on his mission, backing his agenda, paying into it all over again just like when Mitch was at the helm. I have seen some of these people beaten up, eaten up, chewed up and spat out on the mat for dead and they had nobody to turn to. They bore their souls to me simply because I would listen and because I needed a deeper understanding for what I perceived as evil 30+ years ago when I refused to sell my soul to the devil in Prescott. I needed that affirmation that I was right or at least that I had some discernment. Somehow I knew this thing was evil from the get go, but as always I was branded a rebel, a disgruntled malcontent, a church hopping neer do well, and a shit disturber.
                >
                > It's funny, beginning about 1981-82 I was off and on in a small church in So CA that never got much bigger than 100 people. The first pastor who planted the mess had failed thrice before but kept returning to the area for some reason. I never understood his draw to the area. Betweeen two sister communities less than 3 miles apart this guy tried so hard to get it going but because the larger of the two towns had two Foursquare churches within city limits Foursquare would not allow him to plant near them and forbade him to proselyte from them. Of course there was no threat of that because the two churches were filled with older folks who were not the target demographic of The Door.
                >
                > Then this guy enlisted a friend of mine who was another disgruntled malcontent and a church hopper to help him get the church plant off the ground. One thing that helped was an out-reach band was put together to play the park in the big town one Saturday where posters, flyers and tracts were everywhere. It was like, "Oh, wow! Another new church, in a storefront? Cool!" and all these young people showed up and heard the spiel - "all the other churches are impotent and passe, none of them are dedicated, and then the hook, God expects loyalty so get rid of your TV, be here every night, bring your money and get rid of it too, we'll take it off your hands because it's evil unless spent on the Lord's work... etc" and from there it exploded.
                >
                > Then a couple years down the road that original pastor left to plant a new work elsewhere. A new pastor came from Prescott having been redirected from a previous plant effort. This pastor kept things rolling musically and preached long and loud about the evils of rock music - yet the church band played rock music with Jesus lyrics. He was such a name dropper I suspected he was at the very least a subscriber to Rolling Stone Magazine. He finally left about 3 or 4 years later and went back to AZ. Another pastor from AZ took his place, one who was less musically motivated.
                >
                > Within a couple of years this pastor was persuaded to pull the church in the January 1990 split from Mitchell by Ron Jones who convinced him to sign on with him and his loosley affiliated group of former CFM pastors alligned with him & Harris based in Colorado Springs.
                >
                > Upon pulling out the church. the former pastor (2#) was sent from Prescott to break up the rebel church. He rented a store front east of town and called it Potter's House instead of The Door. Meanwhile The Door changed it's name to New Beginnings with it's new found affiliation with Ron Jones. The first pastor who planted it refused to go there and attempt to break it up but the 2nd one was more than willing to go to former parishioners homes, their places of business and employment or call them on the phone at all hours of the night and even went so far as to accost many them in the church parking lot with a team of "church busters" aimed at breaking up the former fellowship rebel church by any means. The pastor stood his ground and told everyone, the choice is yours and the majority stayed with him. Many vaccilated over the next year or so and even longer.
                >
                > By 1996 the 2nd pastor who headed up the 'church busters' squad had had enough of Mitchell and he closed his Potter's House fellowship church, let the lease go on the building space and rented another one across town starting an independant work he called 'First Love'. He remained un-affilated for years and had entertained returning to Foursquare, even having Dr Holland out to preach and visit until Foursquare dumped him (unfairly I am told) and then this former CFM pastor hooked up with Praise Chapel but the affiliation didn't last long, maybe a year or two, until he merged his church with another Pentecostal church similar to the Assemblies of God only much smaller. He became a co-pastor of a merged church built out of a church plant that had just barely made a ripple in the neighborhood. Soon the two pastors were at an impetus with the handwriting on the wall that one of them had to leave or they had to divide and exist separately. Whether they drew straws or tossed a coin, I am unsure but the other pastor left and the former CFM pastor remains there. The New Beginnings church left Jones by 1992 and went independant changing the name to New Life Chapel until the pastor merged his church with a failing church whose pastor had moved or died but had yet to replace him, with a big building and dwindling numbers they merged and he became the pastor of the two calling the church New Life Bible Church.
                >
                > By the new millenium there were about 4 or 5 former CFM pastors in the same area NONE of which had much to do with one another. Some had been very close yet that didn't matter after the split ups. Over the years they have interacted at times with other churches in the area but for the most part they stay to themselves. I think for pastor #3 it's too much for him to think of Pastor #2 coming to his church and trying to split his church with a church busters' team trying to start a fight in the parking lot one Sunday morning.
                >
                > None of them have anyrhing to do with Jones or Harris or Mitchell of course. They all have a skewed telling of these events depending on their audience. Mitchell is seldom if ever mentioned. None of them will list CFM or Potter's House on their resume or list Mitchell as a former associate. Most have a sour taste in their mouths for Foursquare and the AOG, PCOG etc. They generally look down on Calvary Chapel who had their start as did they via a former Foursquare pastor who left to start his own work. None of these pastors send out couples to plant churches or to pioneer ministry efforts in the field. None of them hold city wide evangelism via outreach or witness teams or parking lot concerts the way they did in the old days. Hardly any of them pass out tracts and there's very few of them who have Christian rock bands playing rock music covers with their all too often lame Christian message lyrics and fewer still play their own songs.
                >
                > Some of these guys have memory lapses and convenient amnesia. A couple of them I mentioned the fellowship or Wayman Mitchell to and they insisted they had never heard of Mitchell or the Fellowship!
                >
                > Once I said that Potter's House was a Cult and the person I was talking to immediately jumped to their defense as well as their own, declaring they had never been in a Cult, demanding that I retract the statement declaring that they were never deceived and that my accusation was unfounded, making ME the enemy!
                >
                > I find it very interesting that many of them read Ron Jones self published 'Prosperity Gospel' teaching books, while others watch Larry & Tiz Huch on satelite TV Christian channels. Some still have the Ron Simpkins books published by the Fellowship on Potter's Press in Prescott in their personal library in their office or study at the church or in their book cases at their homes.
                >
                > What's even weirder is the way these guys have treated me over the years. When they were in the Fellowship I was but a scalp for them. Later I was treated like a tool by both sides lobbying for my loyalty. Neither of them have ever understood my loyalty to the faith in spite of refusing to be loyal to Mitchell, them, or any other work of man. My state of 'free agencny' has been something they could never wrap their heads around and they have accused me of many things over the years because of it. I've always been independant and never a joiner or a lemming.
                >
                > I agree with you too about so few of them actually teach the Bible - IF any of them ever have. Most are too busy teaching the denominational hardline that has come down from headquarters whether it's Angeles Temple or Potter's House # 1 in Prescott where the Pope of Mitchelldom resides or the head of some church oganization led by some rebel former Mitchell follower demanding tithes, perfect attendance at their meetings, or the relinquishing of endless amounts of resources be they tangible or physical in terms of money, goods or energy, time, talent and sworn allegiance via ever presence when the door is open.
                >
                > The fact is NONE of these things are what being a true Christian is all about and none of them are demanded in the Bible by Jesus or any of the Apostles. Instead of preaching the Bible and the TRUE simplicity of the REAL Gospel they hammer everyone on all these points on top of get rid of your TV, stay away from everyone outside the Fellowship and so on with a bunch of rules, legalism, roll call and gold stars and check marks by names on ledgers where tithe and donation records are kept by bean counters who use the figures to keep the do-gooder's and dreamer's in the church in line. None of this is about TRUE faith yet the majority compromises in this way.
                >
                > All Ron Jones knows is what he learned at Evangel College (and from Mitchell) and that is to preach the tithe, hammer on missions, hammer on attendance, hammer on "God's little bless me club" and then wait for the money to roll in. It's a far cry from what Jesus commanded in the Great Commission and from what Paul, Peter, James & John majored on in their Epistles to the Church.
                >
                > Harris comes closer by far to the original seed in his work in Iraq but lest he forget his roots he has to come back to the States once or twice a year to freshen up his message with more of the same to the home church congregations at least within his denominational affiliation.
                >
                > Everyone keeps telling me that it all runs by the flow of the almighty dollar but when I read the New Testament I don't see that. Jack's work in Iraq is proof of that. A few bucks from Praise Chapel church offerings and missions pledges have helped I am sure, but there is a precedent for relying God's provision by faith where no provision seems possible rather than hitting up the Saints or relying on the flesh - which is works, legalism and not truly of faith. Even Paul refused to accept offerings and James seemed to have forgotten how to take one, and all of them including Peter and John never drop the tithing line on anyone!
                >
                > How can this be? What it be like is these modern day pastors don't preach the Bible!
                >
                > Most I have talked to about this admit that they do not, but justify it by claiming IF they did preach the TRUTH about such things as tithing, church attendance, alcohol, divorce and remarriage etc that come Sunday morning they would have half a congregation, the other half at home hung over or simply decided to stay at home and worship as a New Testament family did in the Early Church as per depicted in the Acts and as per Jesus setting the example of the home church family unit reflected in the Jewish observance of Passover held in homes, led by a family patriarch, as represented when the 12 Tribes were captives of Pharoah in Egypt. These same pastors have confided in me that they would be out of a job should they begin to teach the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth because they would not have money to pay the electric bill or the rent on the church. Their denominational headquarters is not about to support them - they are about receiving money FROM the churches NOT dole it out! The truth is that most churches cannot stand the truth hence they seldom even open the Bible. If they did they'd be constantly avoiding certain passages and simply not telling the truth about the meanings of many of them they do address.
                >
                > Church today in these times is all about one thing: Mammon! The Love of Money! Show me a church that doesn't LOVE Money! I'll show you one that has no 501(c)3 tax exemption status, no yellow page ads and no business telephone line. Show me one church that doesn't love $ and I'll show you a church where the pastor works and never takes an offering much less ever mentioning the tithe. Oh, would to God that it truly was this way in the churches.
                >
                > Of course these things can never be because churches have become these voting blocks focused on social activism, and political influence. Even Wayman Mitchell has a Republican agenda. Google his political donations sometime and his party affiliation. What did Jesus really teach about this very thing? Of course no one really believes what He said. Just ask ANY pastor!
                >
                > Jude
                >
                >
                > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 no_reply@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Jude said:
                > >
                > > [From what I was told Ron & Jack were going to partner together in their
                > > renegade
                > > ex-CFM movement to create their own fellowship that they patterned after
                > > Wayman's. It wasn't long before disagreements caused Ron and Jack to
                > > part
                > > company, by the end of the year with Jack eventually joining up with
                > > Larry &
                > > Mike Neville's Praise Chapel group of churches, which was nearly a 100
                > > more
                > > churches which pulled out from Mitchell by mid-1990 and went independant
                > > as they
                > > had originally started in 1970 in Mayfield, CA before joining up with
                > > Mitch.]
                > >
                > > I was involved with Ron Jones a number of months after I left the
                > > fellowship back in 1994, so I asked him about some of these events and
                > > relationships.
                > >
                > > There was no real falling out between Jack and Ron. There was severe
                > > disorientation for these men, along with Coney Orosco, who pulled out
                > > the Flagstaff church and went with Jack and Ron. They really didn't
                > > have a plan and were throwing different stuff together. Many of the
                > > pastors, who pulled out with these guys, looked to Ron Jones to be the
                > > new leader of this new make shift fellowship. Jones expended massive
                > > resources trying to save a lot of churches and pastors while his own
                > > church was being ripped apart. He finally had to concentrate on
                > > rebuilding his church, and the pastors and churches that pulled out in
                > > the 1990 exodus were mostly destroyed. While Ron made the effort to try
                > > and help these pastors and churches, Wayman was working overtime to
                > > destroy them, and Wayman had a lot more resources, along with loyalist
                > > pastors and leaders who would help Wayman do in the "rebels."
                > >
                > > Harris was under quite a lot of stress with all this, and Wayman was
                > > definitely out to get him. As a virtual lone ranger pastor, with a
                > > renegade church, he was under the gun. He made an interesting decision
                > > and gave the Rancho Cucamonga church to Larry Nevelle. As the Nevelles
                > > had their own sizable fellowship, largely centered in California, the
                > > church now had the protection, if you will, of Praise Chapel. This
                > > thwarted Wayman's attempt to destroy the church, and infuriated him. As
                > > far as he was concerned, the Nevelles stole his church. However, Wayman
                > > had managed to get a couple of Praise Chapel churches to forsake the
                > > Nevelles and go with Waymanchrist, which was seen as good, holy, and
                > > righteous, of course.
                > >
                > > Jack Harris then became a charter member of Praise Chapel, and these
                > > days he is doing his religious trip in Iraq, or at least he was still
                > > there last I heard. He is on Facebook if you ever want to look him up.
                > > At one point he was given a church in Colorado, north of Colorado
                > > Springs, Ron Jones being in Colorado Springs. I can't recall if the
                > > church was Jones' church or one of Praise Chapel's. However, after a
                > > number of years the church completely fell apart and Jack went into the
                > > evangelist role. He seems to actually be involved in what might be
                > > called true evangelism as he is out in a foreign country trying to make
                > > converts to his brand of Christianity.
                > >
                > > Jones seems to be completely into his own trip. I am not sure if he
                > > still does conferences or plants churches at all. I know that when
                > > Wayman nearly toppled his church that Ron did start bringing home some
                > > of the couples he was supporting on the field, as Wayman splitting his
                > > church had seriously impaired his finances. That is, naturally, part of
                > > Wayman's plan for any rebel pastor and church.
                > >
                > > This illustrates, for me at least, the crazy pattern of organized
                > > Christian religion. This kind of stuff, with different factions and
                > > sects of Christianity, has been going on since the religion started.
                > > Here are men who were part of the same "movement" becoming enemies and
                > > viewing each other as evil. I have to wonder at it all. There seems to
                > > be precious few religious groups or independent churches that just teach
                > > the Bible and don't go on these psycho religious trips. Guys who used
                > > to hang out with each other all the time are now alienated from each
                > > other over religious differences, and much of those differences have to
                > > do with who controls the resources. The whole 1990 split was over
                > > Wayman's tithe and offering pyramid. Wayman would rather destroy
                > > churches and pastors who refuse to pay him tribute than let them go in
                > > peace, and that tells you all you need to know about the man. He is not
                > > out to save the world and give them the gospel, but out to build and
                > > maintain his own religious world. He has been suing a church in Fiji,
                > > which dared to pull out of his fellowship, for over a decade, just to
                > > punish them for daring to leave his kingdom. And still his loyalists
                > > defend him.
                > >
                > > It would be fascinating to get a group of these men who are in and out
                > > of the fellowship in a room together. How long could they last before
                > > being at each other's throats? As far as know, there is no animosity
                > > between Jones and Harris. But who knows? A lot of things change, and
                > > religion breeds hate, many times. Someone wrote that even Bill Coolidge
                > > and Hank Houghton don't have anything to do with each other any more.
                > > It gets so bizarre over time.
                > >
                > > Live Long and Prosper
                > > Ken
                > >
                >
              • kenhaining777
                Jude said: [Maybe a falling out was the incorrect word to use to describe the breakdown of the relationship between Ron Jones & Jack Harris but there was
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 5, 2012
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                  Jude said:

                  [Maybe a 'falling out' was the incorrect word to use to describe the breakdown of
                  the relationship between Ron Jones & Jack Harris but there was definitely a
                  parting of the ways at some point - and from what I've been told you are right
                  again as usual in that Jones is pretty much doing his own thing. Harris doesn't
                  have a thing to do with Jones and as far as I know none of the Praise Chapel
                  pastors do at this late date now over 20 years since the great Exodus of 1990.]

                  I would say they drifted apart.  Jones weighed his options and decided to be his own deal, his own fellowship.  So joining Praise Chapel was out.  He told me that he had thought about rejoining Foursquare, but since he would have to sign his church property over to them, he decided against it.  He also thought about joining Assemblies of God, but again, in the end, he decided to be his own fellowship. 

                  With a name like Victory World Outreach, I would think that he is at least planting some churches, but I don't know what he is doing these days. I talked to someone who had joined his church after he left Wayman, and she had left the church after a few years.  Her and her husband were in "ministry," but when they left they were treated the same way that Wayman's group treats "backsliders."  That same term was applied to them, although they never renounced their faith in Jesus.  This woman also told me of the many major money drives that were held, with people being lined up to drop something into the offering so that everyone could watch.  In other words, some severe tactics for getting people to give money to the church.  Jones also retained the tithe doctrine, basically the "tithe or burn" teaching.  It was a few years back that I spoke to this woman, so I don't know for sure if anything has changed. 

                  When Jack Harris left the fellowship, it was revealed that he had an immoral situation in his church in Nogales, Arizona, and that he had sex with a young woman and then later married her off to one of the "disciples."   That must have been a weird wedding.  Instead of being set out of "ministry" for a while, he was given the Flagstaff, Arizona church, due to that pastor having to be moved on for adultery.  That other pastor of the Flagstaff church was then sent to Perth, West Australia to start the Potter's House there.  It was Greg Johnson who told me about Harris' problem with the young Christian gal in the Nogales church.  It was obvious that he was told to spread this, and this revealed just how angry Wayman was at Harris.  But the line was that Wayman was sorrowing over not having disciplined Jack for his indiscretion. Really, revealing this was revenge on Harris for rebelling against Waymanchrist. 

                  As for selective memory lapses, I think many ex members, ex pastors, and ex leaders struggle with this.  Some of them deliberately deny involvement in the fellowship.  Some, who have left off being religious professionals, made up stuff for their job resume rather than putting down that they were Waymanite "ministers" for years or decades.  I spoke to one ex leader last year, and he has gone into business for himself and is quite successful at it.  He told me that I should refrain from even mentioning the fellowship when I speak to him.  Some people want to forget the whole damn thing, and I don't blame them.  I do think, however, that it helps people to talk it through at least once or twice, but that is my opinion.  If never mentioning it again works for you, that's great. 

                  One ex fellowship pastor, who successfully pulled his church out in 1990, and who joined Praise Chapel, point blank told me that one of the main reasons he remained a pastor is that it is the easiest way for him to make a living.  That is pretty much the story of many of those who ran to the Nevelles after they broke off Wayman.  This guy was just particularly honest in stating it. 

                  Shalom
                  Ken



                • kenhaining777
                  cigarscoffeeandbeer said: [The concept that we as a human race have seemed to a large extent needed some shaman or religious expert to guide us on our journey
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 5, 2012
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                    cigarscoffeeandbeer said:

                    [The concept that we as a human race have seemed to a large extent needed some shaman or religious expert to guide us on our journey - seems more flawed than ever now.]

                    This is a fascinating aspect of human beings, this seeking of a spiritual guide.  What makes this spiritual guide more enlightened than you?  The fellowship played this up to the max, and I was even told as a new convert that Harold Warner and Wayman Mitchell had heard and seen things that were not lawful to utter.  How silly.  Wayman used to preach that he was a "special vessel" consecrated to God.  The whole idea was that if God called someone to be a "special vessel," then they had direct knowledge from God that you could only get from them.  Bill Coolidge preached an entire sermon outlining how we could not understand divine healing until after God gave the revelation to Wayman. 

                    I think there are two types of these "special vessels."  The first are the ones who actually believe this stuff.  They are deluded, and they will pull you into their delusion if you let them.  It doesn't matter how many times they "miss God," they are convinced that they are these special men, with special knowledge and revelations.  The second type are the religious con men.  These are the ones who play the religious game for profit.  I think that Joseph Smith was of this type.  He wrote that he received these golden tablets and was given the power to read the words, written in another language, by God.  He would have to have really believed that this happened to be the deluded sort.  I rather think he made the whole thing up.  I tend to also think that Wayman is playing the game.  Sometimes I think he laughs himself to sleep at the people who believe every word that comes out of his mouth. 

                    I think the trend for people to seek out their own answers concerning spiritual beliefs is growing.  This has to, naturally, be branded as extremely evil by religious professionals.  After all, these people are trying to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. 

                    Shalom
                    Ken




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