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Re: My Experience Response

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  • kenhaining777
    George said: [While I was still in it I never recognised the pattern as being something so structured (of course, subsequently, after studying the coercive
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 11, 2012
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      George said:

      [While I was still in it I never recognised the "pattern" as being something so
      structured (of course, subsequently, after studying the coercive persuasion,
      that is, brainwashing techniques, I saw it so clearly). I attributed it all to
      the pastor being incompetent. One thing that I really noticed as a "pattern"
      were those endless, repetitive altar calls: I hardly ever responded for the
      simple reason of the pastor's invitation beginning with "If you heard from God
      you come down to the front and... etc..." No, I have not heard from God; I heard
      the pastor and am not to bow my knee before him. Yet, I observed all those
      mule-like responses by about 95% of people, day in day out.]

      You are an unusual case.  You joined the fellowship at an age when most of the long timers had already left. 

      After the exodus of 1990, circa 1992, Wayman Mitchell preached a sermon in Tucson conference with the title, "40 something."  He stated that there is a real danger of falling into rebellion after you turn 40.  Ron Jones was 41 when he left the fellowship, and so the reference was obvious.  Mitchell erroneously used Absalom as his example, saying that Absalom was 40 years old when he rebelled against his father, King David.  I remember pointing out to Mark Aulson that this simply was not true, and that David's reign that began in Hebron, over the tribe of Judah, combined with his reign over all Israel was 40 and a half years.   Absalom was born while David was ruling in Hebron.  It's fairly obvious that David lived quite a while after Absalom's rebellion.  Quite simply, "the young man Absalom" was nowhere near 40 years old.  Aulson got red faced at my "arrogance" in thinking that I could spot such an error in an infallible Waymanchrist sermon. 

      Nonetheless, Wayman's main point in the sermon was that as the fellowship was getting older, we who were approaching 40 years old would have to be on guard not to rebel against "God," i.e., Waymanchrist.  The real problem is that when people get to middle age, they are not so prone to just listen to those who speak with pseudo authority.  They start to think for themselves, even when they have spent years, or even decades in a religious cult.  They will no longer bow like teenage children when the pastor or leader speaks in that tone of "I am speaking for God," or any of that nonsense.  So Wayman was trying to short circuit that tendency with his silly sermon.  By the way, thinking for yourself is equal to rebellion in the fellowship, although Wayman and his appointed leaders will deny it.  They don't mind if you think for yourself, as long as you conclude that they are right about everything. 

      So you, George, were very different than the average person in their teens or 20s who joined Wayman's World.  You saw your pastor as simply incompetent, whereas a 20 year old would view him as a Christian guru.  I remember Harold Warner preaching in the early days, when Harold was a young man himself, that older people had hardened their hearts and could not receive the things of God, and that "revival" is "youth oriented."  This was to get us to accept the fact that we saw almost no middle aged people joining our great move of God. 

      Seeing your pastor as incompetent, you thought you could actually show him something from the Bible that he missed.  That was seen as supreme arrogance and rebellion.  You see, we were taught that these men were specially equipped by God.  Even if their Bible knowledge was less than your own, they still understood it better.  Far better.  When I was a new convert, I was told by one guy in the church that Wayman and Harold had seen things that were not lawful to utter.  Even as a new convert, I had trouble with that one, but that gives you an idea of just how deluded members of the church were, and still are, concerning this pastor guy.  From what you have said from your study of the Bible, I am sure you know it better than Walsh.  One of the statements that I heard when someone would argue against the fellowship from the Bible, and they had good Bible knowledge, was, "Well, the Devil knows his Bible, doesn't he?"  I am sure that is how you are viewed by some who are duped by Walsh and the other pastors and disciples in Australia, and beyond. 

      One respect in which they show their ignorance is in saying that you tell people not to tithe.  The last thing the pastors and leaders want the people in the churches to know is that you don't tell people not to tithe, but rather tell them how the Bible says you should tithe.  As long as they can paint the picture of your being an anti tithing devil, then they can keep people from reading what you actually have to say on the subject.  Wayman and his leaders are very good at getting people in the churches to stay away from anything a backslider has to say, whether in person, or through writing.  They know all too well what could happen if those church members actually read something like your study on tithing. 

      In any event, most serious members of the fellowship of Wayman O. leave within their first 7 years.  There have been many a gung ho disciple, 4 years into it, who is gone the next year.  They are opening in prayer, going on outreaches, witnessing to everything that moves, praising Waymanchrist and their "God appointed" pastor, giving tons of money, taking all their vacation time to go to conferences, and then they are gone, and soon forgotten.  A few shots are taken at them from the pulpit, and then the church goes on with new members coming in to replace the old ones.  So many "on fire" disciples have recruited their own replacements.  How ironic when the ones they brought into the church curse their name after they left. 

      Good to see you, George.  I hope you find time for a bit more commentary.

      Shalom
      Ken




    • kenhaining777
      Frank said: [I remember when I went to prayer meetings at the church in the early 70s. The little w would be praying at the top of his lungs for everyone to
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 11, 2012
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        Frank said:

        [I remember when I went to prayer meetings at the church in the early 70s. The
        'little w' would be praying at the top of his lungs for everyone to hear. He
        would pray loving things, like God please send someone to take this person's
        life. For he is trying to steal one of my children away. Hmmm and all this time
        I thought they were God's children. He would pray as he preached and as far as
        it goes a lot of his minions too. Whya theya woulda pray and preacha that waya
        I'll never knowa. LOL LOL LOL. Sad but true!]

        Again, I think there is a kind of hypnotic effect to these type behaviors.  Wayman was teaching the people in the churches to hate "backsliders" and anyone who opposed the supreme will of Waymanchrist by loudly uttering these prayers.  He can't possibly believe these prayers are real, as God never sent anyone to kill these people that he prayed against.  In the very early 80s, he preached about a group of "backsliders" who were meeting together, several preachers, and some others, and he said God was doing that so the LORD wouldn't have to "open up the earth over here and over there, but He could swallow them up all at once!"  Well, the earth never opened up to swallow any of them.  It's all conditioning, and it worked, as the crowd cheered.

        By getting these people in this chanting mode in these prayer meetings he gets them to get the thought patterns that he wants in their heads.  You tend to say the same things over and over again, as you attempt to get what was called "prayed up."  What the Hades is that?  Just like Wayman's prayer to send someone to kill a person, who was probably just someone exposing Wayman's corrupt religious scam, was never answered, those chanting prayers were just rituals.  No one really expected a miraculous answer to what they prayed in those meetings.  They are as ritualistic as anything any religion has ever come up with.  And as for those "tongues" being an "angelic language," do you really think angels talk like that?  They are just part of the time filler so you can say that you are "prayed up."  How stupid!

        This is why if you abandon those prayer meetings in favor of private prayer, you are highly likely to snap out of the spell of that religion.  The demand for rigid adherence to the prescribed behaviors in those churches is there for a reason.  If you ever start to break out of the conditioning, you won't be long for the door.  That is why they will viciously preach against anyone who tries to modify any of "the pattern."  They will say something like, "I was talking to some super spiritual disciple the other day and he told me, 'Pastor, I am going to start praying privately as Jesus taught.'  Well, I can tell that disciple has been listening to the wrong voices....."  And then he will talk about the prayer meetings they had in the Bible accounts, and totally trash what Jesus taught about private prayer.  That's right.  I have heard it preached that things that are clearly taught in the Bible are not correct.  They will even mock specific Scriptures.  And yet people will sit out in the audience and agree and "amen" those pastors.  How bizarre is that?

        Shalom
        Ken



      • kenhaining777
        [In my case, it was my being naive and thinking that the whole world is honest: the preaching was endlessly pointing out to the word of God , the bible. So I
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 11, 2012
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          [In my case, it was my being naive and thinking that the whole world is honest:
          the preaching was endlessly pointing out to the "word of God", the bible. So I
          read it tirelessly – and found that the fellowship teaching does not line up
          with it. But I thought, again, it was the pastors' incompetence and ignorance –
          until the confrontation about the "tithing doctrine".

          That is now history and an episode in my life which, I am not sure how to

          classify it: a blessing or a curse. It cost me, and is still costing me to this
          day, so much. Yet, if it were not for that, I would probably be arguing with
          you guys here that the fellowship is the "greatest move of God on earth" and
          that you reprobates would all perish to the eternal fires of hell.

          shalom

          george]

          It is hard to sort it all out with the crisis that gets you out.  You are right, there is a traumatic element, and yet there is the ensuing escape from becoming and even longer term religious slave.  The only thing I would add in the way of commentary is that if you had known just how sinister that fellowship is, then you might have taken a more strategic approach and slowly educated your wife so that you both would have eventually left.  What I learned in pulling out with my church was that just because I saw through the fellowship didn't mean that the people in my church were going to see through it as quickly as I told them about it.  Ironically, they were trained by me, the guest speakers I had, and the conferences that I encouraged them to attend to be psychotically loyal to the fellowship and its exalted leader, Wayman O.  So, many of them turned on me, even though I had radically changed my teaching and preaching for over a year leading up to my being ousted over rejecting the media rules. 

          In the same way, although you saw through the fellowship, George, once it became clear to you that your pastor and his loyalists had no interest in what the Bible actually says, your wife was in a totally different place.  It would have taken some serious wisdom for you to have totally backed down to Walsh and then waited it out while you slowly showed your wife what you were both really involved in.  Unfortunately, that kind of wisdom usually comes after the fact. 

          As for them constantly pointing people to the Bible being the Word of God, and that you should obey it, most serious members are too exhausted from the demanding schedule to really study their Bibles.  Instead they are taught the doctrine that sermons are like meals that you consume, that is, you are fed the Word of God by your pastor.  Your study is to simply read those parts of the Bible that they emphasize, and hear those sermons echoed in your head.  I remember going back over texts in the Bible that were used for various high powered sermons at conferences, and seeing that the meaning ascribed to those passages was totally different than what was actually being said. 

          For example, Harold Warner preached a sermon at conference in which he put forth the "principle" of "check it out with Jethro."  This was based on a passage from Exodus 4.

          Exodus 4: 18
          Then Moses departed and returned to Jethro his father-in-law and said to him, "Please, let me go, that I may return to my brethren who are in Egypt, and see if they are still alive." And Jethro said to Moses, "Go in peace."

          What Warner preached was that even though Moses had this supernatural experience with the LORD, complete with signs and wonders, with the LORD speaking to Moses out of a burning bush, Moses still needed to check out this revelation with his father in law, Jethro.  Warner likened Jethro to being Moses' pastor, and said that no matter how strongly you believe that you have heard from God, you had better check it out with your pastor, or your "headship."  When I heard the sermon I liked it.  This, however, reveals that when you are in the midst of those church services, and especially conference services, your thinking is distorted.  The atmosphere of the whole deal is such that you just take in whatever is being preached and you don't apply any critical reasoning. 

          When I was rereading Exodus a while later, I came across that Scripture.  Moses wasn't confirming his experience with God by asking Jethro about it.  He didn't even mention the burning bush, or the voice of God, or the signs that God gave him.  He simply asked his father in law, whom he worked for, for permission to leave and go see if his Hebrew brethren were still alive.  Now, Jethro did give Moses some good advice down the road, but Warner's assertion was that before Moses could obey the LORD and go down to Egypt, he had to confirm the revelation with Jethro.  That's not in there.  Warner made it up.  It sounded good, though, and we lapped it up like dogs eating garbage.

          It was, and I am sure still is, the law in the fellowship that the voice of God can never contradict your pastor's voice.  "God speaks through leadership," was a primary fellowship axiom.  Wayman O. told us once, at a service in Tucson, that if we wanted to fulfill the call of God to preach that we had to learn to take our pastor's word as the Word of God.  You would think that a big, red, flashing sign would have gone off in our heads, "Cult! Cult! Cult!" but we were just too stupefied by Waymanite religion.

          Had the tithing issue not created a crisis for you, George, then I am sure that you would have had another conflict that would have caused you to leave.  You were too much of a free thinker to last in that religion.  I remember you had said that you left for a bit while Reece was still there due to Reece declaring a church member the enemy of the state for demanding to see the financial records of the church.  I also recall that you said you had a double Scotch at your wedding, right in front of Reece.  Hardly fellowship material.  You should only drink in private, or with your girlfriend.  You returned to the church when Walsh took over, but didn't last long then either.  You were doomed from the start.  Unfortunately, some children got caught up in the whole mess, and you managed to get two of them out.  By the way, how are your sons doing, and do you still hear from the daughter who is still in Wayman's World?

          Well, hopefully you will have time to comment some more, George.  In the mean time, I hope all is well with you.

          Shalom
          Ken


             
        • potkonyak
          Ken said: [In the same way, although you saw through the fellowship, George, once it became clear to you that your pastor and his loyalists had no interest in
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 12, 2012
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            Ken said:
            [In the same way, although you saw through the fellowship, George, once it became clear to you that your pastor and his loyalists had no interest in what the Bible actually says, your wife was in a totally different place. It would have taken some serious wisdom for you to have totally backed down to Walsh and then waited it out while you slowly showed your wife what you were both really involved in. Unfortunately, that kind of wisdom usually comes after the fact. ]

            In fact, when I had my `revelation' about what the bible says about tithing, my wife backed me up full blast. She, like me, thought that the fellowship teaching was just an error and was proud of her husband's revelation. When I was writing my `Tithing Conspiracy' at one stage I wanted to water down my criticism of the churches that `believe in tithing' she encouraged me not to do it.

            It would have taken me years to undo what the fellowship did to her – if I were aware of it myself. I still though it is Walsh's ignorance and was trying to get in touch with Mastin. When I eventually did, he told me `George, you are welcome – to fellowship elsewhere.'

            Even then I could not make myself to `lift my hand against the anointed one.' It was only some four years (four years!) afterwards when Walsh finally convinced my wife to divorce me and when he, his wife and my wife plotted how to force me out of my own home and take control of my children, when Walsh insulted me by a remark about what I have `done to my children', when I mustered some courage to tell him that he is an idiot. Even after that, on the advice by pastor Wrotniak (who was our family friend), I called Walsh and apologised! Now I really wonder which one of two us was an idiot: I think it was me...

            So, in summary, I have not left the fellowship; it was the other way round: the fellowship left me. The same was during the reign of Reece the First: he told me, when I attempted to make a comment, `If you don't like it, there is the door' – so to the door I headed – only to return when Walsh took over. (I told you guys: it was me who was an idiot; didn't I?)

            Would like to say more but am in the midst of preparation for a trial down at the South Coast.

            shalom
            george
          • kenhaining777
            [So, in summary, I have not left the fellowship; it was the other way round: the fellowship left me. The same was during the reign of Reece the First: he told
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 12, 2012
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              [So, in summary, I have not left the fellowship; it was the other way round: the
              fellowship left me. The same was during the reign of Reece the First: he told
              me, when I attempted to make a comment, `If you don't like it, there is the
              door' – so to the door I headed – only to return when Walsh took over. (I told
              you guys: it was me who was an idiot; didn't I?)

              Would like to say more but am in the midst of preparation for a trial down at
              the South Coast.

              shalom
              george]

              The fellowship simply used you as much as they could, just like they do with everyone who joins.  As long as you are a "human resource," as Wayman refers to the members of the churches, then they are with you, and you with them.  The moment you stop being a "human resource," and you become a threat to their continued control over the other members of the church, then you are an enemy, an agent of Satan, etc. 

              It is a particularly violent separation when you fall into the threat category.  The existence of the fellowship depends on several "doctrines" that they teach, not the least of which is their sacred tithe and offering teaching.  By bringing in actual Scripture on the subject, Scripture in context, you became a major threat to Walsh's continued security in the Austalian branch of Waymanland.  If people in the church had been allowed to read your initial study on tithing, and they put it into practice, then Walsh would have been out boat loads of money.  Can't have that, and that is why Mastin, when he heard of your study, told you that you were welcome to fellowship elsewhere.  You were a threat to him as well. 

              The extent of your threat is such that the rumor of you, which was spread about the fellowship, is that you are against tithing.  The leader and his sub leaders want the people in the Potters House churches to believe that you are simply a devil who encourages people to "rob God."  They really should read your study for themselves, shouldn't they, but I am certain that is someone was found to have a copy of your study, they would be confronted to renounce it, get rid of it, or be cast out themselves.  Isolation and information control are essential elements of Wayman's government. 

              But really, all someone has to do is read the Bible for themselves.  As I mentioned, part of the problem is that people in those churches are usually too tired from the demands of the church and "ministry" to really read the Bible.  However, if they were ever to break out of the routine a bit, and give some real time to reading the Bible, they would quickly discover that Wayman's teachings are quasi Bible doctrines.  They seem biblical until you read the Scriptures in context.  When you do read the Bible in context, it is shocking how far removed Wayman's teachings really are from the actual Scriptures. 

              Well, George, sorry you are too busy to comment more.  Perhaps you will get a chance to pop back in soon.

              Shalom
              Ken


            • kenhaining777
              George said: [In fact, when I had my `revelation about what the bible says about tithing, my wife backed me up full blast. She, like me, thought that the
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 12, 2012
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                George said:

                [In fact, when I had my `revelation' about what the bible says about tithing, my
                wife backed me up full blast. She, like me, thought that the fellowship
                teaching was just an error and was proud of her husband's revelation. When I
                was writing my `Tithing Conspiracy' at one stage I wanted to water down my
                criticism of the churches that `believe in tithing' she encouraged me not to do
                it.]

                That would mean that Walsh made a special effort to turn your wife against you, which increases my already enormous disgust with that "pastor."  Once again, we see that these "men of God" totally ignore the Bible.  Obviously, Walsh, in true fellowship style, was ignoring the validity of your study.  On top of that, he ignored what Jesus said about marriage, that is, what God has joined together, let no man separate.  It's one thing if the wife of a man who is "rebelling" is already a psychotic Waymanite zealot.  It is quite another for a pastor to go out of his way to turn a wife against her husband.  And this guy actually thinks he is a righteous "man of God"? 

                The fact that children were involved makes it all the more incidious.  You did an immense job of fighting it in the courts.  One of these days one of these "pastors" is going to pull this trash with someone who bypasses the courts, and takes matters into his own hands.  It is rather dangerous to mess with people's kids. 

                I could go on, but that's enough.  George's account of the whole fiasco, and the divorce that Walsh engineered, was just recently reposted.  It is still one of the most damning testimonies against the Wayman O. fellowship.  And you're loyat to that thing?  Really?  Those fellowshippers who lurk here must have no conscience to be able to continue to be members in good standing of such a corrupt organization. 

                Shalom
                Ken

                 

                 

                 

              • kenhaining777
                George said: [I took part in those public prayer meetings but never prayed aloud. I clearly understood what Jesus reportedly said about the prayer. I devoted
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 13, 2012
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                  George said:

                  [I took part in those public "prayer" meetings but never prayed aloud. I clearly
                  understood what Jesus reportedly said about the prayer. I devoted so much time
                  praying in private, at home, in the morning and, especially late at night (after
                  the kids and the wife go to sleep).

                  It was an incredible experience with God: He spoke to me, revealing to me the

                  secrets that only He knew, including the first fellowship split in 1990, being
                  the result of "financial scandal", as the LORD revealed it to me (of which I
                  learned only about a year later), and the fact that Dale Reece would be
                  "recalled"; soon after, indeed, he was called back to Gallup NM (his old
                  church).]

                  The 1990 exodus, led by Ron Jones and Jack Harris, caused a major rift in the fellowship.  I could tell, at the preachers meeting on Tuesday of the January 1990 Prescott conference, that Wayman was shaken.  However, within a day, he became fiercely angry, and that is when the mocking sermons began.  Still, it took a significant chunk out of the fellowship with about a hundred churches and pastors leaving within a few months.  Wayman began calling pastors and asking them to judge Ron Jones as pure evil, and anyone who refused was driven out.  Some pastors resigned their churches and many of them, if not most, left the "ministry."  Some pulled out with their churches only to find that all that Wayman had said, when we left Foursquare, about the churches being sovereign and able to determine their own destiny, was a lie.  Wayman set about splitting churches that pulled out, and planted new churches in the same area to pull out as many "human resources" as he could. 

                  What set off the firestorm was Ron Jones wanting to be the head of his own fellowship, and the key being that Ron did not want to tithe to Prescott any more.  That was considered high treason and Jones was labeled a covenant breaker.  In one sermon, in the July 1990 conference, Jones was likened unto Satan rebelling against God, and one third of the angels following Satan, just like all these churches and pastors followed Jones out of the fellowship.  We were encouraged to pray curses down on Ron Jones, Jack Harris, and all the pastors who dared to rebel against The Way Man. 

                  As for Reece, he was called back to Gallup when the pastor of that church was asked to resign by Mitch.  Reece was sent out of Gallup, so it was similar to when Greg Johnson was made pastor of the Prescott church when Wayman went to Perth for a season.  Reece fell right into the heavy duty leadership role, and it was he and Harold Warner who confronted me on allowing my Bible study leaders to vote out the media rules.  Reece, however, became one of those who left in 2001.  Many of those key pastors and leaders who violently preached against Ron Jones and Jack Harris left in 2000 and 2001.  I was already out of the fellowship when I heard about it, and it sounded so strange to me.  These guys were so adamant about staying loyal to Waymanchrist and condemning any and all who dared to leave Waymanland, and then they left themselves.

                  Since the fellowship loses the vast majority of its members in a ten year period, and replaces them over those years, most people in the fellowship have no recollection of the main leaders who have almost all left Wayman's World.  I am sure they hear a few distorted stories about these "rebellions," and how Lord Wayman and his mighty men of valor stood their ground and preserved Waymanland forever.  The truth is that the men who left were amongst the most fiercely loyal of Waymanites, and were the ones who actually built the fellowship for Lord Wayman's glory.  If Wayman lives to be a very old man, the scenario of the loyalists leaving and being driven out will probably be repeated.  But there will always be new loyalists to rise up and take their place, and condemn those who dare to rebel against what they think is the LORD's anointed. 

                  Shalom
                  Ken


                • joaquin1saved
                  ... I would like to add my two cents to that comment.And if anyone that reads this that is a current member please exuse my matter of fact way of putting what
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 14, 2012
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                    --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > George said:
                    >
                    > [I took part in those public "prayer" meetings but never prayed aloud. I
                    > clearly
                    > understood what Jesus reportedly said about the prayer. I devoted so
                    > much time
                    > praying in private, at home, in the morning and, especially late at
                    > night (after
                    > the kids and the wife go to sleep).
                    >
                    > It was an incredible experience with God: He spoke to me, revealing to
                    > me the
                    > secrets that only He knew,


                    I would like to add my two cents to that comment.And if anyone that reads this that is a current member please exuse my matter of fact way of putting what I'm about to say.Consider a new convert like myself when I first came to church and witnesed this behavior.From my first impression perspective, I saw grown men struting around like peacocks, mindlessly babeling incoherant jiberish at the top of their lungs.Later I learned that this was a mark of superspiritual men, so much so that alot of these roosters that practiced this behavior ended up out the door during my CFM experience.That's the truth!Alot of them were just trying to sound spiritual to the pastor and infront of men and women, maybe alot of the single guys I saw doing it thought it would impress the ladies.It was funny to me to see the men ruffel thier feathers in this strange ritual.Take what I said for what it is and ask yourself: is any of that really nescessary, when you consider the words of Jesus and question these mens intentions?
                  • Loki
                    In the 4 years I was part of that mob, I doubt I attended those prayer meetings more than a dozen times, even though I was meant to go to 10 a week (morning
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 15, 2012
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                      In the 4 years I was part of that mob, I doubt I attended those prayer meetings more than a dozen times, even though I was meant to go to 10 a week (morning prayer and the 3 meetings before services).

                      I always had much more useful things to do, like praying in secret, or eating breakfast, or catching some extra sleep.

                      Cheers,
                      Perry


                      --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, joaquin1saved <no_reply@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > George said:
                      > >
                      > > [I took part in those public "prayer" meetings but never prayed aloud. I
                      > > clearly
                      > > understood what Jesus reportedly said about the prayer. I devoted so
                      > > much time
                      > > praying in private, at home, in the morning and, especially late at
                      > > night (after
                      > > the kids and the wife go to sleep).
                      > >
                      > > It was an incredible experience with God: He spoke to me, revealing to
                      > > me the
                      > > secrets that only He knew,
                      >
                      >
                      > I would like to add my two cents to that comment.And if anyone that reads this that is a current member please exuse my matter of fact way of putting what I'm about to say.Consider a new convert like myself when I first came to church and witnesed this behavior.From my first impression perspective, I saw grown men struting around like peacocks, mindlessly babeling incoherant jiberish at the top of their lungs.Later I learned that this was a mark of superspiritual men, so much so that alot of these roosters that practiced this behavior ended up out the door during my CFM experience.That's the truth!Alot of them were just trying to sound spiritual to the pastor and infront of men and women, maybe alot of the single guys I saw doing it thought it would impress the ladies.It was funny to me to see the men ruffel thier feathers in this strange ritual.Take what I said for what it is and ask yourself: is any of that really nescessary, when you consider the words of Jesus and question these mens intentions?
                      >
                    • Cameron Havlik
                      I always felt the prayer meetings scheduled before church services were full of distractions that hindered me from obtaining an intimate conversation with
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 15, 2012
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                        I always felt the prayer meetings scheduled before church services were full of distractions that hindered me from obtaining an intimate conversation with God.  You are constantly interrupted by someone trying to win the contest of being the loudest and heaven forbid you get two or more disciples in there competing with one another.  The prayer room is just another platform for the church people to put on another show for their pastor and fellow church members to prove how "super spiritual" of a disciple they are.  Making an appearance in the prayer room before church services is a requirement for those who want to continue to participate in ministry.  I was guilty of this and remember so many times I would mindlessly repeat the same sentence in "tongues" over and over again as I watched the clock.  Once I had done my time by being seen in the prayer room I would leave the same way I came in feeling no closer to God spiritually. 


                        From: Loki <lokilad@...>
                        To: Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 2:34 AM
                        Subject: [Escape_from_the_Fellowship] Re: My Experience Response

                         
                        In the 4 years I was part of that mob, I doubt I attended those prayer meetings more than a dozen times, even though I was meant to go to 10 a week (morning prayer and the 3 meetings before services).

                        I always had much more useful things to do, like praying in secret, or eating breakfast, or catching some extra sleep.

                        Cheers,
                        Perry

                        --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, joaquin1saved <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > George said:
                        > >
                        > > [I took part in those public "prayer" meetings but never prayed aloud. I
                        > > clearly
                        > > understood what Jesus reportedly said about the prayer. I devoted so
                        > > much time
                        > > praying in private, at home, in the morning and, especially late at
                        > > night (after
                        > > the kids and the wife go to sleep).
                        > >
                        > > It was an incredible experience with God: He spoke to me, revealing to
                        > > me the
                        > > secrets that only He knew,
                        >
                        >
                        > I would like to add my two cents to that comment.And if anyone that reads this that is a current member please exuse my matter of fact way of putting what I'm about to say.Consider a new convert like myself when I first came to church and witnesed this behavior.From my first impression perspective, I saw grown men struting around like peacocks, mindlessly babeling incoherant jiberish at the top of their lungs.Later I learned that this was a mark of superspiritual men, so much so that alot of these roosters that practiced this behavior ended up out the door during my CFM experience.That's the truth!Alot of them were just trying to sound spiritual to the pastor and infront of men and women, maybe alot of the single guys I saw doing it thought it would impress the ladies.It was funny to me to see the men ruffel thier feathers in this strange ritual.Take what I said for what it is and ask yourself: is any of that really nescessary, when you consider the words of Jesus and question these mens intentions?
                        >



                      • kenhaining777
                        Cameron said: [I always felt the prayer meetings scheduled before church services were full of distractions that hindered me from obtaining an intimate
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 16, 2012
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                          Cameron said:

                          [I always felt the prayer meetings scheduled before church services were full of distractions that hindered me from obtaining an intimate conversation with God.  You are constantly interrupted by someone trying to win the contest of being the loudest and heaven forbid you get two or more disciples in there competing with one another.  The prayer room is just another platform for the church people to put on another show for their pastor and fellow church members to prove how "super spiritual" of a disciple they are. 
                          Making an appearance in the prayer room before church services is a requirement for those who want to continue to participate in ministry.  I was guilty of this and remember so many times I would mindlessly repeat the same sentence in "tongues" over and over again as I watched the clock.  Once I had done my time by being seen in the prayer room I would leave the same way I came in feeling no closer to God spiritually.]

                          The prayer meetings that I hated the most were the Tucson Bible conference prayer meetings.  We were always sternly warned that we, the pastors, had to be at those meetings to set an example.  They were mega loud.  I couldn't even think in there, much less pray.  But I had to show up. 

                          So, I would do my best to pray, but I wouldn't join the mass shouting.  Sometimes I would watch the other people praying, and I thought that it really looked fake.  On one occasion, I observed a very bizarre manifestation of this weird ritual.  One of the leaders who was attending the conference started marching around with his right hand in the air, yelling in "tongues."  A whole bunch of other pastors and disciples started marching behind him and they snaked around the room used for conference prayer, which was quite large, all of them yelling in tongues, and most of them imitating the right hand lifted in the air.  I wish I had a video of it.  If I showed it to any normal person, they would probably think it was one of the weirdest expressions of religion that they had ever seen.

                          It is interesting how we would get caught up in these behaviors.  As a new convert I jumped right into the prayer meetings and started imitating the pastor and main disciples.  From my perspective, there is a power that religion wields over people's minds through joining together in various rituals.  It makes you feel "spiritual," and a part of the group.  I bought into the whole "prayed up" concept, which was accomplished by spending a certain amount of time in prayer every day, chiefly at those prayer meetings.  But as the years went by, it became more and more obvious to me that I was involved in meaningless ritual.  I also realized why Jesus taught his disciples to pray in private, because people are so susceptible to engaging in such behaviors simply to be seen by others.  

                          The epitome of the group behavior in the fellowship is the mandatory fasts.  These three day fasts show the immense power that the leadership has over the people in the church.  On command, people won't eat for three days.  And who would dare to blow off those fasts?  They might say you don't have to participate, but you would be totally railed on if you were eating while everyone else in the church was starving themselves.  I remember so many church members moaning to each other how starved they were.  There was nothing spiritual about it, but rather just an assertion of power by the leadership.  If you can get people to not eat for three days on command, you can get them to do a lot of other things. 

                          Shalom
                          Ken



                        • kenhaining777
                          [In the 4 years I was part of that mob, I doubt I attended those prayer meetings more than a dozen times, even though I was meant to go to 10 a week (morning
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 17, 2012
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                            [In the 4 years I was part of that mob, I doubt I attended those prayer meetings
                            more than a dozen times, even though I was meant to go to 10 a week (morning
                            prayer and the 3 meetings before services).

                            I always had much more useful things to do, like praying in secret, or eating

                            breakfast, or catching some extra sleep.

                            Cheers,

                            Perry]

                            In the early days of the fellowship morning prayer was at 10:30 AM, and it was for people who had the day off, for the most part.  It was based on Foursquare's policy that the prayer meetings were there for those who wanted them, and were in no way mandatory.  My work schedule allowed me to come to prayer meetings as a new convert, and it was much less formal and demanding.  It was the prayer meetings before services that were emphasized for "disciples."  It was in those that we learned the "pattern" of prayer that we were expected to imitate. 

                            Rather than leave it at that, Wayman decided that the burden was too light, and the yoke was too easy.  So, he instituted the 7 AM prayer meetings, and it immediately became apparent that those who were contending to get sent out had better be in those prayer meetings.  This added to the element of people being extremely worn out, which works in favor of keeping them in the cult mind set.  The real test of these disciples, who wanted to get sent out, was Saturday morning prayer meeting, as most had the day off.  Woe to those who slept in on Saturday and "missed God."  In defiance of this, I had 10:30 AM Saturday prayer meetings, which several other pastors lambasted me about.  But I didn't care.  I remembered the 10:30 AM prayer meetings and how much better it was to be awake while I was trying to "lay hold of God."

                            As for you, Perry, I had asked leadership about men like you, who did not perform all the prescribed behaviors as set forth in the Book of Wayman.  I was told that you just use those guys as much as you can and hope that one day they get with the program, but don't drive them off, especially if they are tithing.  I was even given the phrase, "You use people as much as you can," which I think is Wayman 4:13. 

                            Paul Campo disagreed with this axiom, and preached a sermon at Tucson conference on "fringers."  He said that they hindered revival, and caused others to fall into the same lukewarm state that they were in.  He said they were a curse to the church and revival, and basically implied that God hated them.  He said that they needed to be brought to a place of getting with God's program, or being driven off.  But most of the pastors went along with getting as much out of "fringers" as they could. 

                            Live Long and Prosper
                            Ken



                          • joaquin1saved
                            I was told that you just use those guys as much as you can and ... This menality above all others is what I hate the most of all with a passion about cfm.I
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 18, 2012
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                              I was told that you just use those guys as much as you can and
                              > hope that one day they get with the program, but don't drive them off,
                              > especially if they are tithing. I was even given the phrase, "You use
                              > people as much as you can," which I think is Wayman 4:13.LOL
                              >
                              > Paul Campo disagreed with this axiom, and preached a sermon at Tucson
                              > conference on "fringers." He said that they hindered revival, and
                              > caused others to fall into the same lukewarm state that they were in.
                              > He said they were a curse to the church and revival, and basically
                              > implied that God hated them. He said that they needed to be brought to
                              > a place of getting with God's program, or being driven off. But most of
                              > the pastors went along with getting as much out of "fringers" as they
                              > could.
                              >
                              > Live Long and Prosper
                              > Ken
                              >



                              This menality above all others is what I hate the most of all with a passion about cfm.I really couldn't even do it justice to fully break down the full spectrum analysis of how wrong and sick in the head this mutated and twisted doctrine is.How damageing and brainwashing it is above all others, I belive it turns good men into minions and solid belivers into Pharasies.


                              For example right off the bat it exposes the true heart of that most cfm preachers have been indoctrinated in.How they are trained to place "the work" of the kingdom as an idol.I ask who's kingdom are they building?
                              The problem is even though some cfm preachers may not suscribe to this train of thought, they are so well versed in the gospel according to Wayman, that they come across subliminally with this fringer doctrine.


                              This doctrine is the slithering voice telling people to quit their nice job to devote more of themselves to the kingdom, drop out of college, pay 20 percent tithe, come to church 7 days a week and so on.You don't wanna let yourself become one of those evil fringers that God hates.

                              Which brings me to another point"Wayman the spiritual pimp"!
                              The way a pimp breaks a woman is by beating her and getting her to feel worthless, sometimes getting her addicted to hard drugs.She feels she has nowhere to turn, and even though the pimp is destroying her life she willingly stays.I belive this is known as the Stockholm syndrome.When you ask a pimp how much he pays his hoes out makeing his money he might say, "that ho's lucky to get 5 dollars", and that ho better make daddy some money or she will get a black eye".This is kin to Wayman demanding ridiculous and burdonsome requirements to belivers as thier reasonable service.And what's worse is that he and many others are brutally blunt with these kindof demands as if we had better do as they say or catch a spiritual beatdown, from the pulpit or a personal lambasting from one of these spiritual pimps.


                              It goes on, more often than not!Is the work of the kingdom more important than how you treat people?Cfmers would beg to differ on that point it seems.
                            • kenhaining777
                              joaquin1saved said: [This doctrine is the slithering voice telling people to quit their nice job to devote more of themselves to the kingdom, drop out of
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 18, 2012
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                                joaquin1saved said:

                                [This doctrine is the slithering voice telling people to quit their nice job to
                                devote more of themselves to the kingdom, drop out of college, pay 20 percent
                                tithe, come to church 7 days a week and so on.You don't wanna let yourself
                                become one of those evil fringers that God hates.]

                                My ex wife had a four year full scholarship to any college in the US that would accept her.  Her grades were high enough to get her into a Ivy League college, or places like Stanford, CA.  Yet, she gave it up to start a "girls home," to take in new converts, and give the single women in the church a cheap place to live.  The pastors will deny that they ever told anyone to do things like that, but you are right, the "voice" is there.  Statements would be made in sermons such as, "If you are called to preach the gospel, don't lower yourself to be a king."  Sermon illustrations will be used of people who sought education and careers, and thus "missed God." 

                                There was one man in the fellowship who pastored a church by a military base.  All the people in his church were from the base, and not the town.  Even though it was a small church, because military pay was pretty good, he took in a good sum of money.  This man would literally pull people aside and tell them not to re-enlist, and that if they did, they would "miss God."  Thus people aborted their careers in the military, and then got sent out, and then failed to build a church.  And how would the pastor reconcile this?  He would say, "Hey, they were the ones who said they were called to preach." 

                                I had my applications out to get my PhD in psychology, and it was looking like I was going to be accepted at one or two universities.  I flushed all of that when I got "saved."  I was sternly warned not to leave the church to go home for the holidays, and something like going away to finish my education was seen as purely demonic.  Ironically, it was my ex wife who brought me into the church.  Had she pursued her education, she would not have been at the job I got in Tucson where I met her, and would never have gotten snared. 

                                I wonder how many people have substandard jobs today because they joined the fellowship?  I wonder how many would be in such a better place if they had not been a part of the so called greatest move of God in the Earth today?  How many people turned down jobs in another city because it would take them out of "the will of God"?   And many forsook education to be a part of that weird religion.  One leader point blank preached in Tucson, "The first thing you do when you get a college student saved is get them to quit college."  

                                This is one of the major factors of damaging people's lives in the fellowship.  And it is one that does not go away after you get out.  Most of these opportunities in life come at specific times, and if you pass them by, they don't come again.  I will never be 23 years old again, and aspiring to go get my PhD.  No, it really isn't an option at this time in my life.  I admire Perry for getting his PhD, years after leaving the Potters House, but he is a rare exception.  George Potkonyak, after so many horrific battles in the family courts in Australia decided to get a law degree in his 60s.  Good for him.  However, that was something that was the result of being in, and getting out of Waymanland, and fighting to get his own children out of that religious black hole.  George found out that the family courts can be every bit as corrupt as the religious courts. 

                                But many who could have been college graduates, and had brilliant careers, never will, as a direct result of being in Wayman's World.  They did the trip for any number of years, and their lives were derailed.  They will never get back what they lost for the sake of giving Waymanchist all that he desired.  Many have found themselves in marriages, with children, that never would have happened without the influence of that religious world.  And what does Wayman and his top leaders think of all this?  They laugh all the way to the bank.  They have what they want.  Too bad for you. 

                                Shalom
                                Ken



                              • Loki
                                Paul Campo can go jump on his head.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 21, 2012
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                                  Paul Campo can go jump on his head.



                                  --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > [In the 4 years I was part of that mob, I doubt I attended those prayer
                                  > meetings
                                  > more than a dozen times, even though I was meant to go to 10 a week
                                  > (morning
                                  > prayer and the 3 meetings before services).
                                  >
                                  > I always had much more useful things to do, like praying in secret, or
                                  > eating
                                  > breakfast, or catching some extra sleep.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > Perry]
                                  >
                                  > In the early days of the fellowship morning prayer was at 10:30 AM, and
                                  > it was for people who had the day off, for the most part. It was based
                                  > on Foursquare's policy that the prayer meetings were there for those who
                                  > wanted them, and were in no way mandatory. My work schedule allowed me
                                  > to come to prayer meetings as a new convert, and it was much less formal
                                  > and demanding. It was the prayer meetings before services that were
                                  > emphasized for "disciples." It was in those that we learned the
                                  > "pattern" of prayer that we were expected to imitate.
                                  >
                                  > Rather than leave it at that, Wayman decided that the burden was too
                                  > light, and the yoke was too easy. So, he instituted the 7 AM prayer
                                  > meetings, and it immediately became apparent that those who were
                                  > contending to get sent out had better be in those prayer meetings. This
                                  > added to the element of people being extremely worn out, which works in
                                  > favor of keeping them in the cult mind set. The real test of these
                                  > disciples, who wanted to get sent out, was Saturday morning prayer
                                  > meeting, as most had the day off. Woe to those who slept in on Saturday
                                  > and "missed God." In defiance of this, I had 10:30 AM Saturday prayer
                                  > meetings, which several other pastors lambasted me about. But I didn't
                                  > care. I remembered the 10:30 AM prayer meetings and how much better it
                                  > was to be awake while I was trying to "lay hold of God."
                                  >
                                  > As for you, Perry, I had asked leadership about men like you, who did
                                  > not perform all the prescribed behaviors as set forth in the Book of
                                  > Wayman. I was told that you just use those guys as much as you can and
                                  > hope that one day they get with the program, but don't drive them off,
                                  > especially if they are tithing. I was even given the phrase, "You use
                                  > people as much as you can," which I think is Wayman 4:13.
                                  >
                                  > Paul Campo disagreed with this axiom, and preached a sermon at Tucson
                                  > conference on "fringers." He said that they hindered revival, and
                                  > caused others to fall into the same lukewarm state that they were in.
                                  > He said they were a curse to the church and revival, and basically
                                  > implied that God hated them. He said that they needed to be brought to
                                  > a place of getting with God's program, or being driven off. But most of
                                  > the pastors went along with getting as much out of "fringers" as they
                                  > could.
                                  >
                                  > Live Long and Prosper
                                  > Ken
                                  >
                                • kenhaining777
                                  Perry said: [Paul Campo can go jump on his head.] Did you ever hear him preach on one of his tours of Australia? It is rather odd how Wayman restructured his
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 23, 2012
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                                    Perry said:

                                    [Paul Campo can go jump on his head.]

                                    Did you ever hear him preach on one of his tours of Australia?

                                    It is rather odd how Wayman restructured his leadership.  Campo was one of those who attended the leadership meetings, having been made a leader when the Cape Cod church continued to grow after he took it from Paul Stephens.  He was actually appointed a leader by Jack Harris, who was pastoring the Prescott church in the mid 80s while Wayman did his second stint as the pastor of the Perth church.  Some of the other leaders complained that Campo's appointment was bogus, as they really didn't like it when Harris viewed himself as the head pastor of the US works.  Harris went through a bit of shock when Wayman simply decided one day to take back Prescott.  Harris thought his appointment was permanent, but that was silly.  Wayman remains Lord and King of the entire fellowship at all times. 

                                    In the late 90s Wayman scrapped his original leadership set up, and appointed a board of elders, which included Paul Stephens and Richard Rubi.  However, Campo was excluded, and one of the leaders who left in 2001 told me that Campo was quite angry about being left out.  That made sense to me, as Campo had always viewed himself as the true leader of the fellowship, appointed by Jesus himself.  Campo got bold enough to tell his pastor, Harold Warner, that he had exceeded Harold spiritually, but he decided not to go to Wayman with the same claim, as he, for lack of better terms, sensed a disturbance in the Force.  Campo realized that Wayman would reject the "Word of the LORD" and refuse to allow Campo to take up his role as the true leader of the fellowship.  So, he decided to bide his time, play the game, and wait for Wayman to either repent and appoint him leader, or until Wayman died. 

                                    He felt that if Wayman tried to leave the fellowship to anyone else, then those who had a heart for God would look to Campo as their true leader, and that whoever Wayman tried to leave in charge would lose power.  It would be, as Campo saw it, like the struggle between
                                    Ish-bosheth, the son of Saul, and David, with the house of David, aka Campo, growing steadily stronger.  Campo was confident that ultimately he would prevail. 

                                    I don't know what he thinks now.  I haven't talked to him in almost 20 years, so he may have revised the "revelations" that he had about himself being the leader of the entire fellowship.  His church just put up a new building, and so he is doing well in that sense.  But so was Coolidge, and so was Houghton, and many other one time favored men in Wayman's kingdom.  Campo, however, was of the mind to avoid any direct confrontation with Wayman, and preferred to play him as David played Achish, the King of the Philistines.  So who knows?  Maybe he is still waiting in the wings for Wayman to kick it and become the true leader of the fellowship who will bring them into "revival." 

                                    It was always hard to find anyone who was as thrilled with Campo as he was with himself.  He was always convinced that God really did favor him more than anyone else, including Wayman.  He was harsh on those who left in 1990, although he had thought that if he had been in charge he could have saved them from apostasy.  He thought Wayman handled it all wrong.  I wonder what he thought of those who left in 2000 and 2001?  He is one of the few who used to go to leadership meetings who is still in the fellowship, and who is not a part of the new and improved board of elders.  I wonder who he hangs out with these days?  Probably his subordinates.  Way bother with anyone who is not in awe of his awesomeness? 

                                    Oh well.  Time will tell how this will all work out.  It will be interesting to watch.

                                    Shalom
                                    Ken

                                     
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