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Re: Attitude Towards Consistently Evil Fellowship Leaders

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  • kenhaining777
    everout said: [Having left the potters house in 1999, I don t believe the fellowship is anywhere near where it was 20 years ago. I don t believe they are
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 3, 2011
      everout said:

      [Having left the potters house in 1999, I don't believe the fellowship is
      anywhere near where it was 20 years ago. I don't believe they are having the
      "impact" they once had. Street preaching and outreaches are almost non-existent
      in my city. My brother lives in another fellowship city and he tells me the same
      thing.]

      It makes sense that the radical street preaching "outreaches" would be a thing of the past.  Larry Reed was the one who got Mitchell into that sort of thing, and it was effective in the 70s, and became more of a perverted tradition in the 80s and 90s.  Even in the late 70s the main purpose of those street preaching events was to "fire up" the people in the church who participated.  It worked.  We would come back with the rush of self righteous religion coursing through our bodies. 

      The fellowship seems to be, from my observation, more into effective advertising, portraying themselves as something completely different from what they really are.  Just the other day, I found a business card for The Potter's House, with CFM logo on it, and the slogan, "Where Jesus is still changing lives."  It seems that they also have moved more towards trying to get "customers" as opposed to converts. That is, they are very interested in getting Christians from other churches to join their "superior move of God."  There's a lot of overlap with this stuff as they don't think that most people in other churches are "really saved."  Or if they are, just barely.  So, whether they see someone coming over from another church as being a Christian who discovered the superior religion of Waymanism, or as a new convert, varies. 

      Whatever it takes to have a group of people who attend the main services, who tithe and give offerings, and who kowtow to the pastor, is what they will do.  My impression, however, is that they are shrinking.  There are only a trickle of churches being planted, and many of those are being planted in towns and cities where the fellowship has tried to establish churches in the past, but without success.  Kind of a holding pattern, with a element of deterioration. 

      In spite of all this, there are still people who will pop in from time to time, and the stories they tell are all too familiar.  So, I don't want it to sound like the fellowship of Wayman O. is no threat to the well being of its members, and its potential members.  Hopefully, one day soon, the whole damn thing will fall apart. 

      Shalom
      Ken


       
    • Richard
      ... You know Ken, I continually read your posts with much admiration. One of the reasons I come here is the depth of your renderings. I do know what it is you
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 9, 2011
        --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Rick said:
        >
        > [I know that my God has shown me a fathomless ocean of grace and mercy
        > that is
        > without any measure. It is through these eyes I look at Harold and the
        > fellowship at large.]
        >
        > While you would acknowledge that you needed oceans of grace, Warner and
        > his fellow "leaders" would not. Sure, they might say something
        > indicating that they need God's grace, but it is more academic, and not
        > heart felt at all.
        >
        > On the contrary, these guys reek of self righteousness. Knowing what I
        > know about Mona's sexual escapades, I marvel at how totally self
        > righteous she remained. There is not even a shred of humility, and the
        > attitude is that the common people in the church have no right to bring
        > judgment against adulterous pastors and pastors' wives. We were told,
        > when it became known that certain pastors were banging church chicks in
        > the church office, or wherever, that this was a "leadership issue." We
        > were just to leave it to Wayman and "serve God." Total trash.
        >
        > The type of adultery that took place, and I am certain still takes
        > place, in the fellowship was not the King David, one time caught with
        > your pants down. It was many hits. Peter Bayerman, who pastored the
        > large church in London, one of the largest in the fellowship, had a
        > church gal on the side for four and a half years. Yet somehow, these
        > leadership guys were supposed to be "specially equipped." I guess it
        > depends on how you define that term.
        >
        > My understanding of the concept of grace in the Bible is that it is
        > offered by Y'hova in response to humility. Jesus had no time for the
        > self righteous, but was gracious to the woman caught in adultery.
        > However, adulterers are not offered grace if they are arrogant and
        > proud, hiding their sins, and pretending to be more holy than the rest
        > of the world. For me, that pretty much describes Harold and Mona and
        > the leaders of Wayman's fellowship.
        >
        > My observation of Warner is that he will do anything to stay the pastor
        > of the large, prosperous Tucson church. He used to liken himself to
        > Moses' mother, who was paid by Pharaoh's daughter to nurse her own son.
        > He said that he loved being paid for what he loved to do. I have found
        > that he will destroy any life, betray any friend, sell out any
        > principle, and a host of other things, to preserve his precious position
        > a "the pastor." He will protect a vicious, adulterous wife against
        > anyone who would try and expose her, making up any lie about them that
        > he thinks will discredit them. I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for
        > these things that he does.
        >
        > Knowing the Bible, and reading the account in 2 Chronicles 33, I know
        > that the LORD Y'hovah will be gracious to anyone who humbles themselves
        > truly.
        >
        > 2 Chronicles 33:10-13
        > The LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they paid no attention.
        > Therefore the LORD brought the commanders of the army of the king of
        > Assyria against them, and they captured Manasseh with hooks, bound him
        > with bronze chains and took him to Babylon. When he was in distress, he
        > entreated the LORD his God and humbled himself greatly before the God of
        > his fathers. When he prayed to Him, He was moved by his entreaty and
        > heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem to his
        > kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD was God.
        >
        > Many who study the Bible consider Manasseh to be the most wicked king
        > that Israel ever had. Yet, he received grace. But note that he
        > "humbled himself greatly." This is what is totally missing in Warner
        > and his counterparts in Wayman's fellowship. They never really repent
        > or humble themselves. They will say that cowing before Wayman is being
        > humble, when actually that is just being a coward.
        >
        > As a Christian, you can decide what is right to do in terms of who you
        > pray for. I am sure that there are those in the fellowship who consider
        > it evil to pray for me, other than to pray down curses on me. So, it is
        > a many faceted discussion as to who someone should pray for, and a
        > personal decision.
        >
        > As for me, I wait to see the end of the fellowship, if I live long
        > enough. I wonder how it keeps going, but since they prey on people who
        > are hurting, people who had rough childhoods and family lives, and
        > people who are in a time of vulnerability, I suppose they will generally
        > be able to get new members as old ones continue to leave. I can only
        > hope that there will be enough information available to people so that
        > they spend very little time in such religious groups, or never join in
        > the first place.
        >
        > Shalom
        > Ken
        >


        You know Ken, I continually read your posts with much admiration. One of the reasons I come here is the depth of your renderings.

        I do know what it is you speak of when it comes to a caste within the Fellowship. I experienced it.

        The one thing I have never understood and have struggled with is how these "pastors" can be so full of themselves that they never appreciate those standing with them and in front of them.

        I had a pastor like this. I loved this man. I still do.

        I stood with him through the most difficult times in his life. Yet he never once stood with me when I needed him to.

        I suppose I am feeling sorry for myself, but it does pain me to this day to think that when I needed my pastor most, he wouldn't even lick a stamp to contact me. He never picked up a phone or sent me an email when I failed. I was the sheep that went astray with a shepherd that couldn't be bothered.

        But my Jesus has never, ever, forsaken me. Even when He should have. Even when I shamed Him. He loved me.

        He loved me.......! He scraped this steaming piece of shit off the asphalt of failure, folded it in his nail pierced hands. Saw value in it... Embraced it with tender mercies. Blew life into it. And to this very day watches over it with never sleeping eyes.

        One of the things I have learned over the years is that He is faithful even when we are not. It is such a joy to know this. A comfort. It makes me want to bury my heart in His. Beyond all human understanding.

        This is how I can look through lenses that color my view of these men. They are valuable. Regardless of their idiocies, they are, you are, we are..... meaningful.

        All the Universe is understood in this one thing. We are somehow worth the blood of the Son of God! We are worth His life.

        How can this be?
      • Richard
        Ken said: As a Christian, you can decide what is right to do in terms of who you pray for. I am sure that there are those in the fellowship who consider it
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 9, 2011
          Ken said:

          "As a Christian, you can decide what is right to do in terms of who you pray for. I am sure that there are those in the fellowship who consider it evil to pray for me, other than to pray down curses on me. So, it is a many faceted discussion as to who someone should pray for, and a personal decision."


          I personally consider it a privilege to pray for you and your family Ken. I daily lift you and your son up before my God and His simple, blood stained acceptance.

          You are not "cursed". You are not forgotten. You are not forgotten.

          The years you invested in an effort for the God you once loved are cherished by Him. What more valuable could you have given? Years are not redeemable except in eternity.

          I do pray with all my being that you understand the GREAT depth of our Saviour's lovingkindness.

          Is that a real word? Loving-Kind-Ness? Lovingkindness.

          I do love that word. It breaks my heart.





          --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <bisquitlips@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Rick said:
          > >
          > > [I know that my God has shown me a fathomless ocean of grace and mercy
          > > that is
          > > without any measure. It is through these eyes I look at Harold and the
          > > fellowship at large.]
          > >
          > > While you would acknowledge that you needed oceans of grace, Warner and
          > > his fellow "leaders" would not. Sure, they might say something
          > > indicating that they need God's grace, but it is more academic, and not
          > > heart felt at all.
          > >
          > > On the contrary, these guys reek of self righteousness. Knowing what I
          > > know about Mona's sexual escapades, I marvel at how totally self
          > > righteous she remained. There is not even a shred of humility, and the
          > > attitude is that the common people in the church have no right to bring
          > > judgment against adulterous pastors and pastors' wives. We were told,
          > > when it became known that certain pastors were banging church chicks in
          > > the church office, or wherever, that this was a "leadership issue." We
          > > were just to leave it to Wayman and "serve God." Total trash.
          > >
          > > The type of adultery that took place, and I am certain still takes
          > > place, in the fellowship was not the King David, one time caught with
          > > your pants down. It was many hits. Peter Bayerman, who pastored the
          > > large church in London, one of the largest in the fellowship, had a
          > > church gal on the side for four and a half years. Yet somehow, these
          > > leadership guys were supposed to be "specially equipped." I guess it
          > > depends on how you define that term.
          > >
          > > My understanding of the concept of grace in the Bible is that it is
          > > offered by Y'hova in response to humility. Jesus had no time for the
          > > self righteous, but was gracious to the woman caught in adultery.
          > > However, adulterers are not offered grace if they are arrogant and
          > > proud, hiding their sins, and pretending to be more holy than the rest
          > > of the world. For me, that pretty much describes Harold and Mona and
          > > the leaders of Wayman's fellowship.
          > >
          > > My observation of Warner is that he will do anything to stay the pastor
          > > of the large, prosperous Tucson church. He used to liken himself to
          > > Moses' mother, who was paid by Pharaoh's daughter to nurse her own son.
          > > He said that he loved being paid for what he loved to do. I have found
          > > that he will destroy any life, betray any friend, sell out any
          > > principle, and a host of other things, to preserve his precious position
          > > a "the pastor." He will protect a vicious, adulterous wife against
          > > anyone who would try and expose her, making up any lie about them that
          > > he thinks will discredit them. I'm sorry, but there is no excuse for
          > > these things that he does.
          > >
          > > Knowing the Bible, and reading the account in 2 Chronicles 33, I know
          > > that the LORD Y'hovah will be gracious to anyone who humbles themselves
          > > truly.
          > >
          > > 2 Chronicles 33:10-13
          > > The LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they paid no attention.
          > > Therefore the LORD brought the commanders of the army of the king of
          > > Assyria against them, and they captured Manasseh with hooks, bound him
          > > with bronze chains and took him to Babylon. When he was in distress, he
          > > entreated the LORD his God and humbled himself greatly before the God of
          > > his fathers. When he prayed to Him, He was moved by his entreaty and
          > > heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem to his
          > > kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD was God.
          > >
          > > Many who study the Bible consider Manasseh to be the most wicked king
          > > that Israel ever had. Yet, he received grace. But note that he
          > > "humbled himself greatly." This is what is totally missing in Warner
          > > and his counterparts in Wayman's fellowship. They never really repent
          > > or humble themselves. They will say that cowing before Wayman is being
          > > humble, when actually that is just being a coward.
          > >
          > > As a Christian, you can decide what is right to do in terms of who you
          > > pray for. I am sure that there are those in the fellowship who consider
          > > it evil to pray for me, other than to pray down curses on me. So, it is
          > > a many faceted discussion as to who someone should pray for, and a
          > > personal decision.
          > >
          > > As for me, I wait to see the end of the fellowship, if I live long
          > > enough. I wonder how it keeps going, but since they prey on people who
          > > are hurting, people who had rough childhoods and family lives, and
          > > people who are in a time of vulnerability, I suppose they will generally
          > > be able to get new members as old ones continue to leave. I can only
          > > hope that there will be enough information available to people so that
          > > they spend very little time in such religious groups, or never join in
          > > the first place.
          > >
          > > Shalom
          > > Ken
          > >
          >
          >
          > You know Ken, I continually read your posts with much admiration. One of the reasons I come here is the depth of your renderings.
          >
          > I do know what it is you speak of when it comes to a caste within the Fellowship. I experienced it.
          >
          > The one thing I have never understood and have struggled with is how these "pastors" can be so full of themselves that they never appreciate those standing with them and in front of them.
          >
          > I had a pastor like this. I loved this man. I still do.
          >
          > I stood with him through the most difficult times in his life. Yet he never once stood with me when I needed him to.
          >
          > I suppose I am feeling sorry for myself, but it does pain me to this day to think that when I needed my pastor most, he wouldn't even lick a stamp to contact me. He never picked up a phone or sent me an email when I failed. I was the sheep that went astray with a shepherd that couldn't be bothered.
          >
          > But my Jesus has never, ever, forsaken me. Even when He should have. Even when I shamed Him. He loved me.
          >
          > He loved me.......! He scraped this steaming piece of shit off the asphalt of failure, folded it in his nail pierced hands. Saw value in it... Embraced it with tender mercies. Blew life into it. And to this very day watches over it with never sleeping eyes.
          >
          > One of the things I have learned over the years is that He is faithful even when we are not. It is such a joy to know this. A comfort. It makes me want to bury my heart in His. Beyond all human understanding.
          >
          > This is how I can look through lenses that color my view of these men. They are valuable. Regardless of their idiocies, they are, you are, we are..... meaningful.
          >
          > All the Universe is understood in this one thing. We are somehow worth the blood of the Son of God! We are worth His life.
          >
          > How can this be?
          >
        • kenhaining777
          Rick said: [You know Ken, I continually read your posts with much admiration. One of the reasons I come here is the depth of your renderings.] Thanks, as
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 10, 2011

            Rick said:

            [You know Ken, I continually read your posts with much admiration. One of the
            reasons I come here is the depth of your renderings.]

            Thanks, as always, for the complement.

            Rick said:

            [I do know what it is you speak of when it comes to a caste within the
            Fellowship. I experienced it.

            The one thing I have never understood and have struggled with is how these
            "pastors" can be so full of themselves that they never appreciate those standing
            with them and in front of them.]

            This is a disease that goes back to Wayman Mithchell.  It is always about the members of the church being so grateful to the pastor for saving them.  It was preached down the line that you would not have been saved without your pastor, along with the variations of you would never have found your destiny in God without your pastor, and you never would have been able to "stay saved" without your "covering," once again, your pastor. 

            Just before I departed from Waymanland, I remember The Little Big Man himself preaching in Prescott conference, and asking, "Where would you be without this ministry?"  The obvious implication was that without "this ministry," you would be lost and without God, etc.  This idea was preached throughout the fellowship.  You owed a debt that you could never pay back to your pastor for his "obedience to God" in getting sent out and becoming your pastor.

            However, it was never asked where the pastor would be if not for the faithful people who attended all those church services, gave tithes and offerings, constantly recruited new members, sang the praises of the pastor, and who did all of this consistently for years.  For Wayman, the answer to where he would be without those faithful members is that he would probably have lived out his life being a appliance repair man, or something like that. Because of the masses of people in the fellowship who sacrificed all other desires and ambitions in life, to be a part of Wayman's fellowship, Wayman ended up being this combination of a CEO, King, and celebrity in his own religious world.  He was propelled to a place where he could fly all over the world, eat at any retaurant that he desired, stay in fine hotels, and generally have what most people could only dream of.  He was surrounded by loyal followers who had nothing but praise for him.  Is he grateful for that?  No.  The moment someone stops being a "human resource" in his kingdom, they are worthless to him.  And as I said, this disease has been passed down the line in Wayman's World.  

            Rick said:

            [I had a pastor like this. I loved this man. I still do.

            I stood with him through the most difficult times in his life. Yet he never once
            stood with me when I needed him to.

            I suppose I am feeling sorry for myself, but it does pain me to this day to
            think that when I needed my pastor most, he wouldn't even lick a stamp to
            contact me. He never picked up a phone or sent me an email when I failed. I was
            the sheep that went astray with a shepherd that couldn't be bothered.]

            This is the painful realization that ex members have to face.  I suppose it was somewhat easier for me, as I realized, back in the early 80s, that my pastor was more of a "professional" than a "pastor."  At one point,he allowed his wife to brutalize my wife over some trivial stuff that my wife supposedly said.  That was done when my wife was sick with her second pregnancy, as she had had a miscarriage with the first pregnancy.  Had my wife not pursuaded me not to, I would have left Wayman's World in 1983, when this took place.  One of those many regrets that I have. 

            However, it did let me see the truth. After that incident,  I related to "brother" Harold as a man who simply loved being "the pastor," that is, a religious professional.  He always loved doing his sermon trip, with a captive audience, and typically his sermons were about 90 minutes long.  He just loved to hear himself talk, I suppose.  And frankly, I was rarely impressed with his sermons.

            I stayed because I bought into the "destiny of God" junk.  I left it to God to deal with Harold and his vicious wife. Of course, they just went on their merry way, with his wife doing whatever she pleased. So many in the fellowship, including Mitchell, knew about her antics, but it was blown off under the banner of Harold being "a good man in a bad situation."  

            As far as your former pastor goes, I did speak to him about you just before I left.  There was, as you say, no real concern, but just a sarcastic dismissal of you as a person.  Sad, really.  But in his case, he found out for himself what the fellowship was about, at least to a degree, when he himself left.  I saw him once, after he left, and he commented, "No one knows what it is like to get out until they leave."  Watching Wayman blow off men like Houghton, Coolidge, Johnson, Hills, Mastin, and so many others was so revealing of what "the fellowship" is really all about.  

            In Wayman's World it is all about the followers having love and loyalty to the leadership, and has nothing to do with any of that leadership having any love or loyalty for the followers.  Don't believe me?  Just leave and it will become a reality.  

            Shalom
            Ken

             

             

             

          • Richard
            Thanks for your input Ken. It it good to know how Hank really feels about me. I am nothing to him. But that is okay. Can t really blame him for not loving a
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 10, 2011
              Thanks for your input Ken.

              It it good to know how Hank really feels about me. I am nothing to him. But that is okay. Can't really blame him for not loving a piece of shit can we?

              I do remember disgorging my guts out in Globe. You know the experience. 9 services a week. Not including outreaches and other affairs.

              But I do not really regret it. What I did, I did for the Lord. Not for Hank Houghton. Not for the Fellowship. Not for Mitchell, but for the Jesus whom I love to this day.

              Does it all really matter Ken? We poured out our souls, didn't we?

              Wringed ourselves out before Him. Loved the lost and did whatever we could to reach them. Just that one soul redeemed was so worth it. It still is.

              Perhaps in Eternity we will see that one person that our efforts reached. That because of our investment, was truly redeemed.

              I can't ever fathom not being totally taken in by that experience.

              So to tell you the truth, my life is nothing in the over all perspective. I am but fodder. To be burned out on the pyre of His lovingkindness to OTHERS.

              That is the most important word in the English language to me. "OTHERS"! Others! What a goal!








              --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Rick said:
              >
              > [You know Ken, I continually read your posts with much admiration. One
              > of the
              > reasons I come here is the depth of your renderings.]
              >
              > Thanks, as always, for the complement.
              >
              > Rick said:
              >
              > [I do know what it is you speak of when it comes to a caste within the
              > Fellowship. I experienced it.
              >
              > The one thing I have never understood and have struggled with is how
              > these
              > "pastors" can be so full of themselves that they never appreciate those
              > standing
              > with them and in front of them.]
              >
              > This is a disease that goes back to Wayman Mithchell. It is always
              > about the members of the church being so grateful to the pastor for
              > saving them. It was preached down the line that you would not have been
              > saved without your pastor, along with the variations of you would never
              > have found your destiny in God without your pastor, and you never would
              > have been able to "stay saved" without your "covering," once again, your
              > pastor.
              >
              > Just before I departed from Waymanland, I remember The Little Big Man
              > himself preaching in Prescott conference, and asking, "Where would you
              > be without this ministry?" The obvious implication was that without
              > "this ministry," you would be lost and without God, etc. This idea was
              > preached throughout the fellowship. You owed a debt that you could
              > never pay back to your pastor for his "obedience to God" in getting sent
              > out and becoming your pastor.
              >
              > However, it was never asked where the pastor would be if not for the
              > faithful people who attended all those church services, gave tithes and
              > offerings, constantly recruited new members, sang the praises of the
              > pastor, and who did all of this consistently for years. For Wayman, the
              > answer to where he would be without those faithful members is that he
              > would probably have lived out his life being a appliance repair man, or
              > something like that. Because of the masses of people in the fellowship
              > who sacrificed all other desires and ambitions in life, to be a part of
              > Wayman's fellowship, Wayman ended up being this combination of a CEO,
              > King, and celebrity in his own religious world. He was propelled to a
              > place where he could fly all over the world, eat at any retaurant that
              > he desired, stay in fine hotels, and generally have what most people
              > could only dream of. He was surrounded by loyal followers who had
              > nothing but praise for him. Is he grateful for that? No. The moment
              > someone stops being a "human resource" in his kingdom, they are
              > worthless to him. And as I said, this disease has been passed down the
              > line in Wayman's World.
              >
              > Rick said:
              >
              > [I had a pastor like this. I loved this man. I still do.
              >
              > I stood with him through the most difficult times in his life. Yet he
              > never once
              > stood with me when I needed him to.
              >
              > I suppose I am feeling sorry for myself, but it does pain me to this day
              > to
              > think that when I needed my pastor most, he wouldn't even lick a stamp
              > to
              > contact me. He never picked up a phone or sent me an email when I
              > failed. I was
              > the sheep that went astray with a shepherd that couldn't be bothered.]
              >
              > This is the painful realization that ex members have to face. I suppose
              > it was somewhat easier for me, as I realized, back in the early 80s,
              > that my pastor was more of a "professional" than a "pastor." At one
              > point,he allowed his wife to brutalize my wife over some trivial stuff
              > that my wife supposedly said. That was done when my wife was sick with
              > her second pregnancy, as she had had a miscarriage with the first
              > pregnancy. Had my wife not pursuaded me not to, I would have left
              > Wayman's World in 1983, when this took place. One of those many regrets
              > that I have.
              >
              > However, it did let me see the truth. After that incident, I related to
              > "brother" Harold as a man who simply loved being "the pastor," that is,
              > a religious professional. He always loved doing his sermon trip, with a
              > captive audience, and typically his sermons were about 90 minutes long.
              > He just loved to hear himself talk, I suppose. And frankly, I was
              > rarely impressed with his sermons.
              >
              > I stayed because I bought into the "destiny of God" junk. I left it to
              > God to deal with Harold and his vicious wife. Of course, they just went
              > on their merry way, with his wife doing whatever she pleased. So many in
              > the fellowship, including Mitchell, knew about her antics, but it was
              > blown off under the banner of Harold being "a good man in a bad
              > situation."
              >
              > As far as your former pastor goes, I did speak to him about you just
              > before I left. There was, as you say, no real concern, but just a
              > sarcastic dismissal of you as a person. Sad, really. But in his case,
              > he found out for himself what the fellowship was about, at least to a
              > degree, when he himself left. I saw him once, after he left, and he
              > commented, "No one knows what it is like to get out until they leave."
              > Watching Wayman blow off men like Houghton, Coolidge, Johnson, Hills,
              > Mastin, and so many others was so revealing of what "the fellowship" is
              > really all about.
              >
              > In Wayman's World it is all about the followers having love and loyalty
              > to the leadership, and has nothing to do with any of that leadership
              > having any love or loyalty for the followers. Don't believe me? Just
              > leave and it will become a reality.
              >
              > Shalom
              > Ken
              >
            • kenhaining777
              Rick said: [It it good to know how Hank really feels about me. I am nothing to him.] If you were to run into him today, he might have a different point of
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 11, 2011

                Rick said:

                [It it good to know how Hank really feels about me. I am nothing to him.]

                If you were to run into him today, he might have a different point of view.  Who knows?  He has now experienced being treated as worthless by his own "pastor," Wayman Mitchell. 

                I would like to sit down with a number of ex leaders and interview them.  Unfortunately, most of them would find that idea repulsive, and they would accuse me of foul motives and such.  But really, I would want to know what they think. 

                I have wondered what Dale Reece thinks of the meeting he did with Harold Warner in Gallup, where they confronted me on departing from the media rules?  I am fairly certain that one of the first things Reece did, after he was thrown out of the fellowship, was to discard those same rules.  Watched any movies lately, Dale?  Most of these guys kept up some kind of pastoring trip, and many of them traded one kind of religious conceit for another kind.  Too weird for me. 

                A few have radically changed their views, and have abandoned self righteous religion.  So who knows how Hank Houghton would respond to you today?  I would hope that after the "getting out" experience, he would treat you decently and with respect. 

                Shalom
                Ken

                 

                 

                 

              • Shazzam
                Just before I departed from Waymanland, I remember The Little Big Man himself preaching in Prescott conference, and asking, Where would you be
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 14, 2011

                   

                  <Ken quoted>Just before I departed from Waymanland, I remember The Little Big Man himself preaching in Prescott conference, and asking, "Where would you be without this ministry?"

                  I was just thinking man if only I had a time machine. I would do things so differently. If I could take my mind from today and go back about 14yrs ago. The pain and residual pain I could have avoided. The regrets even now after being out for 6 years have still disoreinted me. I mean they have great influence over who you marry. A time machine would be good.

                   


                  --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Rick said:
                  >
                  > [You know Ken, I continually read your posts with much admiration. One
                  > of the
                  > reasons I come here is the depth of your renderings.]
                  >
                  > Thanks, as always, for the complement.
                  >
                  > Rick said:
                  >
                  > [I do know what it is you speak of when it comes to a caste within the
                  > Fellowship. I experienced it.
                  >
                  > The one thing I have never understood and have struggled with is how
                  > these
                  > "pastors" can be so full of themselves that they never appreciate those
                  > standing
                  > with them and in front of them.]
                  >
                  > This is a disease that goes back to Wayman Mithchell. It is always
                  > about the members of the church being so grateful to the pastor for
                  > saving them. It was preached down the line that you would not have been
                  > saved without your pastor, along with the variations of you would never
                  > have found your destiny in God without your pastor, and you never would
                  > have been able to "stay saved" without your "covering," once again, your
                  > pastor.
                  >
                  > Just before I departed from Waymanland, I remember The Little Big Man
                  > himself preaching in Prescott conference, and asking, "Where would you
                  > be without this ministry?" The obvious implication was that without
                  > "this ministry," you would be lost and without God, etc. This idea was
                  > preached throughout the fellowship. You owed a debt that you could
                  > never pay back to your pastor for his "obedience to God" in getting sent
                  > out and becoming your pastor.
                  >
                  > However, it was never asked where the pastor would be if not for the
                  > faithful people who attended all those church services, gave tithes and
                  > offerings, constantly recruited new members, sang the praises of the
                  > pastor, and who did all of this consistently for years. For Wayman, the
                  > answer to where he would be without those faithful members is that he
                  > would probably have lived out his life being a appliance repair man, or
                  > something like that. Because of the masses of people in the fellowship
                  > who sacrificed all other desires and ambitions in life, to be a part of
                  > Wayman's fellowship, Wayman ended up being this combination of a CEO,
                  > King, and celebrity in his own religious world. He was propelled to a
                  > place where he could fly all over the world, eat at any retaurant that
                  > he desired, stay in fine hotels, and generally have what most people
                  > could only dream of. He was surrounded by loyal followers who had
                  > nothing but praise for him. Is he grateful for that? No. The moment
                  > someone stops being a "human resource" in his kingdom, they are
                  > worthless to him. And as I said, this disease has been passed down the
                  > line in Wayman's World.
                  >
                  > Rick said:
                  >
                  > [I had a pastor like this. I loved this man. I still do.
                  >
                  > I stood with him through the most difficult times in his life. Yet he
                  > never once
                  > stood with me when I needed him to.
                  >
                  > I suppose I am feeling sorry for myself, but it does pain me to this day
                  > to
                  > think that when I needed my pastor most, he wouldn't even lick a stamp
                  > to
                  > contact me. He never picked up a phone or sent me an email when I
                  > failed. I was
                  > the sheep that went astray with a shepherd that couldn't be bothered.]
                  >
                  > This is the painful realization that ex members have to face. I suppose
                  > it was somewhat easier for me, as I realized, back in the early 80s,
                  > that my pastor was more of a "professional" than a "pastor." At one
                  > point,he allowed his wife to brutalize my wife over some trivial stuff
                  > that my wife supposedly said. That was done when my wife was sick with
                  > her second pregnancy, as she had had a miscarriage with the first
                  > pregnancy. Had my wife not pursuaded me not to, I would have left
                  > Wayman's World in 1983, when this took place. One of those many regrets
                  > that I have.
                  >
                  > However, it did let me see the truth. After that incident, I related to
                  > "brother" Harold as a man who simply loved being "the pastor," that is,
                  > a religious professional. He always loved doing his sermon trip, with a
                  > captive audience, and typically his sermons were about 90 minutes long.
                  > He just loved to hear himself talk, I suppose. And frankly, I was
                  > rarely impressed with his sermons.
                  >
                  > I stayed because I bought into the "destiny of God" junk. I left it to
                  > God to deal with Harold and his vicious wife. Of course, they just went
                  > on their merry way, with his wife doing whatever she pleased. So many in
                  > the fellowship, including Mitchell, knew about her antics, but it was
                  > blown off under the banner of Harold being "a good man in a bad
                  > situation."
                  >
                  > As far as your former pastor goes, I did speak to him about you just
                  > before I left. There was, as you say, no real concern, but just a
                  > sarcastic dismissal of you as a person. Sad, really. But in his case,
                  > he found out for himself what the fellowship was about, at least to a
                  > degree, when he himself left. I saw him once, after he left, and he
                  > commented, "No one knows what it is like to get out until they leave."
                  > Watching Wayman blow off men like Houghton, Coolidge, Johnson, Hills,
                  > Mastin, and so many others was so revealing of what "the fellowship" is
                  > really all about.
                  >
                  > In Wayman's World it is all about the followers having love and loyalty
                  > to the leadership, and has nothing to do with any of that leadership
                  > having any love or loyalty for the followers. Don't believe me? Just
                  > leave and it will become a reality.
                  >
                  > Shalom
                  > Ken
                  >

                • kenhaining777
                  Shazzam said: [I was just thinking man if only I had a time machine. I would do things so differently. If I could take my mind from today and go back about
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 15, 2011

                    Shazzam said:

                    [I was just thinking man if only I had a time machine. I would do things so differently. If I could take my mind from today and go back about 14yrs ago. The pain and residual pain I could have avoided. The regrets even now after being out for 6 years have still disoreinted me. I mean they have great influence over who you marry. A time machine would be good.]

                    Ah, yes, the wish for a time machine. 

                    I had always thought of how if you walked into one of Wayman's leadership meetings circa 1986, and told the bulk of the leaders that they would leave or be driven out of the fellowship over the next 15 years, how they would have blown it off as being impossible.  The old 20/20 hindsight is always so amazing. 

                    Shalom
                    Ken

                     

                     

                  • Richard
                    I remember about 5 years ago when Hank Houghton presided over the funeral of my 23 year old son. He was so very gracious. To this day I admire him for the way
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 15, 2011
                      I remember about 5 years ago when Hank Houghton presided over the funeral of my 23 year old son.

                      He was so very gracious. To this day I admire him for the way he handled the funeral and burial.

                      I will never forget standing at the foot of my son's grave and looking down into it. It seemed 40 foot deep, Hank was standing there. Just standing there. Standing!

                      I loved that man. He was so callous. So formal.

                      I buried my first born son.

                      Hank Houghton could NOT be less interested.

                      I would not want this man to hold my hand as I entered eternity.

                      Never.



                      --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, "Richard" <bisquitlips@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks for your input Ken.
                      >
                      > It it good to know how Hank really feels about me. I am nothing to him. But that is okay. Can't really blame him for not loving a piece of shit can we?
                      >
                      > I do remember disgorging my guts out in Globe. You know the experience. 9 services a week. Not including outreaches and other affairs.
                      >
                      > But I do not really regret it. What I did, I did for the Lord. Not for Hank Houghton. Not for the Fellowship. Not for Mitchell, but for the Jesus whom I love to this day.
                      >
                      > Does it all really matter Ken? We poured out our souls, didn't we?
                      >
                      > Wringed ourselves out before Him. Loved the lost and did whatever we could to reach them. Just that one soul redeemed was so worth it. It still is.
                      >
                      > Perhaps in Eternity we will see that one person that our efforts reached. That because of our investment, was truly redeemed.
                      >
                      > I can't ever fathom not being totally taken in by that experience.
                      >
                      > So to tell you the truth, my life is nothing in the over all perspective. I am but fodder. To be burned out on the pyre of His lovingkindness to OTHERS.
                      >
                      > That is the most important word in the English language to me. "OTHERS"! Others! What a goal!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Rick said:
                      > >
                      > > [You know Ken, I continually read your posts with much admiration. One
                      > > of the
                      > > reasons I come here is the depth of your renderings.]
                      > >
                      > > Thanks, as always, for the complement.
                      > >
                      > > Rick said:
                      > >
                      > > [I do know what it is you speak of when it comes to a caste within the
                      > > Fellowship. I experienced it.
                      > >
                      > > The one thing I have never understood and have struggled with is how
                      > > these
                      > > "pastors" can be so full of themselves that they never appreciate those
                      > > standing
                      > > with them and in front of them.]
                      > >
                      > > This is a disease that goes back to Wayman Mithchell. It is always
                      > > about the members of the church being so grateful to the pastor for
                      > > saving them. It was preached down the line that you would not have been
                      > > saved without your pastor, along with the variations of you would never
                      > > have found your destiny in God without your pastor, and you never would
                      > > have been able to "stay saved" without your "covering," once again, your
                      > > pastor.
                      > >
                      > > Just before I departed from Waymanland, I remember The Little Big Man
                      > > himself preaching in Prescott conference, and asking, "Where would you
                      > > be without this ministry?" The obvious implication was that without
                      > > "this ministry," you would be lost and without God, etc. This idea was
                      > > preached throughout the fellowship. You owed a debt that you could
                      > > never pay back to your pastor for his "obedience to God" in getting sent
                      > > out and becoming your pastor.
                      > >
                      > > However, it was never asked where the pastor would be if not for the
                      > > faithful people who attended all those church services, gave tithes and
                      > > offerings, constantly recruited new members, sang the praises of the
                      > > pastor, and who did all of this consistently for years. For Wayman, the
                      > > answer to where he would be without those faithful members is that he
                      > > would probably have lived out his life being a appliance repair man, or
                      > > something like that. Because of the masses of people in the fellowship
                      > > who sacrificed all other desires and ambitions in life, to be a part of
                      > > Wayman's fellowship, Wayman ended up being this combination of a CEO,
                      > > King, and celebrity in his own religious world. He was propelled to a
                      > > place where he could fly all over the world, eat at any retaurant that
                      > > he desired, stay in fine hotels, and generally have what most people
                      > > could only dream of. He was surrounded by loyal followers who had
                      > > nothing but praise for him. Is he grateful for that? No. The moment
                      > > someone stops being a "human resource" in his kingdom, they are
                      > > worthless to him. And as I said, this disease has been passed down the
                      > > line in Wayman's World.
                      > >
                      > > Rick said:
                      > >
                      > > [I had a pastor like this. I loved this man. I still do.
                      > >
                      > > I stood with him through the most difficult times in his life. Yet he
                      > > never once
                      > > stood with me when I needed him to.
                      > >
                      > > I suppose I am feeling sorry for myself, but it does pain me to this day
                      > > to
                      > > think that when I needed my pastor most, he wouldn't even lick a stamp
                      > > to
                      > > contact me. He never picked up a phone or sent me an email when I
                      > > failed. I was
                      > > the sheep that went astray with a shepherd that couldn't be bothered.]
                      > >
                      > > This is the painful realization that ex members have to face. I suppose
                      > > it was somewhat easier for me, as I realized, back in the early 80s,
                      > > that my pastor was more of a "professional" than a "pastor." At one
                      > > point,he allowed his wife to brutalize my wife over some trivial stuff
                      > > that my wife supposedly said. That was done when my wife was sick with
                      > > her second pregnancy, as she had had a miscarriage with the first
                      > > pregnancy. Had my wife not pursuaded me not to, I would have left
                      > > Wayman's World in 1983, when this took place. One of those many regrets
                      > > that I have.
                      > >
                      > > However, it did let me see the truth. After that incident, I related to
                      > > "brother" Harold as a man who simply loved being "the pastor," that is,
                      > > a religious professional. He always loved doing his sermon trip, with a
                      > > captive audience, and typically his sermons were about 90 minutes long.
                      > > He just loved to hear himself talk, I suppose. And frankly, I was
                      > > rarely impressed with his sermons.
                      > >
                      > > I stayed because I bought into the "destiny of God" junk. I left it to
                      > > God to deal with Harold and his vicious wife. Of course, they just went
                      > > on their merry way, with his wife doing whatever she pleased. So many in
                      > > the fellowship, including Mitchell, knew about her antics, but it was
                      > > blown off under the banner of Harold being "a good man in a bad
                      > > situation."
                      > >
                      > > As far as your former pastor goes, I did speak to him about you just
                      > > before I left. There was, as you say, no real concern, but just a
                      > > sarcastic dismissal of you as a person. Sad, really. But in his case,
                      > > he found out for himself what the fellowship was about, at least to a
                      > > degree, when he himself left. I saw him once, after he left, and he
                      > > commented, "No one knows what it is like to get out until they leave."
                      > > Watching Wayman blow off men like Houghton, Coolidge, Johnson, Hills,
                      > > Mastin, and so many others was so revealing of what "the fellowship" is
                      > > really all about.
                      > >
                      > > In Wayman's World it is all about the followers having love and loyalty
                      > > to the leadership, and has nothing to do with any of that leadership
                      > > having any love or loyalty for the followers. Don't believe me? Just
                      > > leave and it will become a reality.
                      > >
                      > > Shalom
                      > > Ken
                      > >
                      >
                    • kenhaining777
                      Rick said: [I remember about 5 years ago when Hank Houghton presided over the funeral of my 23 year old son.] That has to be one of the worst of all trials,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 17, 2011

                        Rick said:

                        [I remember about 5 years ago when Hank Houghton presided over the funeral of my 23 year old son.]

                        That has to be one of the worst of all trials, the loss of a son or daughter.  I am sorry you had to go through that.


                        Rick said:

                        [He was so very gracious. To this day I admire him for the way he handled the
                        funeral and burial.]

                        So, just 5 years ago he performed this funeral for your son?  Did you ask him to do so, or was your son a member of a church that Houghton was pastoring?


                        Rick said:

                        [I will never forget standing at the foot of my son's grave and looking down into
                        it. It seemed 40 foot deep, Hank was standing there. Just standing there.
                        Standing!

                        I loved that man. He was so callous. So formal.

                        I buried my first born son.

                        Hank Houghton could NOT be less interested.

                        I would not want this man to hold my hand as I entered eternity.

                        Never.]

                        I am struggling a bit to understand what you wrote.  Was Houghton gracious or callous? 

                        I do understand the comment about the lack of interest.  Fellowship leaders became quite cold over the years.  How could they not?  They dismissed friends that they had from the beginning of the fellowship as soon as those friends made any kind of stand against Wayman Mitchell. 

                        I remember the very dark way that Houghton talked about Jack Harris and Ron Jones, for example.  These were men he had friendship with for years.  They preached in each other's churches all the time, hung out together, called each other on the phone, but when Harris and Jones made the decision to escape from Wayman's domination, Houghton cut them off, and despised them.  I remember sitting there in Houghton's office and having him tell me that they "had no honor," and other such things. 

                        Even before this, there was an incident that disturbed me greatly.  There was a young Hispanic guy who joined the church in Albuquerque that was pioneered and pastored by Dino Medina, who had originally been sent out of Santa Fe by Glenn Cluck.  This young man had breakfast with me, and his pastor, Dino, one morning, so I got to know him a bit.  He later left the church, and then he had an incident with a fight over a girl, and this other guy stabbed him in the liver.  He was walking down the street, screaming for a towel, collapsed, and died of the hemerage.  When I saw Houghton, he gleefully told me about the incident, grinning from ear to ear.  As you mentioned, no sorrow for the lost sheep at all.

                        So, I understand what you are talking about when you say that as he stood at the edge of your son's grave that he could not be less interested.  These leaders had to have hardened their hearts a long time ago to have survived as Wayman's men for decades, before finally leaving. 

                        Was Houghton gracious, or callous, or both.  Was the graciousness of the funeral an act?  I remember what a good actor Wayman always was, acting like he cared, when really, he cared not at all for anyone, but only for his own agenda. 

                        Shalom
                        Ken

                         

                         

                         

                      • Loki
                        G day Ken. About 25 years ago one of the blokes I lived with suffered the passing of his dad. His mum was in the group as well. It didn t escape my notice that
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 18, 2011
                          G'day Ken.

                          About 25 years ago one of the blokes I lived with suffered the passing of his dad. His mum was in the group as well. It didn't escape my notice that our pastor, Rob Walsh, displayed no sympathy at all towards my mate. My mate later confirmed with me that at no time at all did Walsh offer even the slightest of condolences.

                          That's stayed with me all these years.

                          Cheers,
                          Perry


                          --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Rick said:
                          >
                          > [I remember about 5 years ago when Hank Houghton presided over the
                          > funeral of my 23 year old son.]
                          >
                          > That has to be one of the worst of all trials, the loss of a son or
                          > daughter. I am sorry you had to go through that.
                          >
                          >
                          > Rick said:
                          >
                          > [He was so very gracious. To this day I admire him for the way he
                          > handled the
                          > funeral and burial.]
                          >
                          > So, just 5 years ago he performed this funeral for your son? Did you
                          > ask him to do so, or was your son a member of a church that Houghton was
                          > pastoring?
                          >
                          >
                          > Rick said:
                          >
                          > [I will never forget standing at the foot of my son's grave and looking
                          > down into
                          > it. It seemed 40 foot deep, Hank was standing there. Just standing
                          > there.
                          > Standing!
                          >
                          > I loved that man. He was so callous. So formal.
                          >
                          > I buried my first born son.
                          >
                          > Hank Houghton could NOT be less interested.
                          >
                          > I would not want this man to hold my hand as I entered eternity.
                          >
                          > Never.]
                          >
                          > I am struggling a bit to understand what you wrote. Was Houghton
                          > gracious or callous?
                          >
                          > I do understand the comment about the lack of interest. Fellowship
                          > leaders became quite cold over the years. How could they not? They
                          > dismissed friends that they had from the beginning of the fellowship as
                          > soon as those friends made any kind of stand against Wayman Mitchell.
                          >
                          > I remember the very dark way that Houghton talked about Jack Harris and
                          > Ron Jones, for example. These were men he had friendship with for
                          > years. They preached in each other's churches all the time, hung out
                          > together, called each other on the phone, but when Harris and Jones made
                          > the decision to escape from Wayman's domination, Houghton cut them off,
                          > and despised them. I remember sitting there in Houghton's office and
                          > having him tell me that they "had no honor," and other such things.
                          >
                          > Even before this, there was an incident that disturbed me greatly.
                          > There was a young Hispanic guy who joined the church in Albuquerque that
                          > was pioneered and pastored by Dino Medina, who had originally been sent
                          > out of Santa Fe by Glenn Cluck. This young man had breakfast with me,
                          > and his pastor, Dino, one morning, so I got to know him a bit. He later
                          > left the church, and then he had an incident with a fight over a girl,
                          > and this other guy stabbed him in the liver. He was walking down the
                          > street, screaming for a towel, collapsed, and died of the hemerage.
                          > When I saw Houghton, he gleefully told me about the incident, grinning
                          > from ear to ear. As you mentioned, no sorrow for the lost sheep at all.
                          >
                          > So, I understand what you are talking about when you say that as he
                          > stood at the edge of your son's grave that he could not be less
                          > interested. These leaders had to have hardened their hearts a long time
                          > ago to have survived as Wayman's men for decades, before finally
                          > leaving.
                          >
                          > Was Houghton gracious, or callous, or both. Was the graciousness of the
                          > funeral an act? I remember what a good actor Wayman always was, acting
                          > like he cared, when really, he cared not at all for anyone, but only for
                          > his own agenda.
                          >
                          > Shalom
                          > Ken
                          >
                        • kenhaining777
                          [G day Ken. About 25 years ago one of the blokes I lived with suffered the passing of his dad. His mum was in the group as well. It didn t escape my notice
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 18, 2011

                            [G'day Ken.

                            About 25 years ago one of the blokes I lived with suffered the passing of his
                            dad. His mum was in the group as well. It didn't escape my notice that our
                            pastor, Rob Walsh, displayed no sympathy at all towards my mate. My mate later
                            confirmed with me that at no time at all did Walsh offer even the slightest of
                            condolences.

                            That's stayed with me all these years.

                            Cheers,
                            Perry]

                            The coldness was apparent.  It kind of makes me wonder about the Scripture that says that the love of many will grow cold in the "last days."  Jesus was disgusted with the coldness that the Pharisees showed towards those outside their group, as it is recorded in the gospels.  It's really obvious when you are outside those type groups, such as the fellowship and the Pharisees, but when you are in it, you are oblivious to the coldness that you display towards others.  You think that you are filled with compassion.  Bizarre. 

                            Nice to see you here.  I've been a bit busy with astrological study and my logistical struggles.  I am somewhat weary, but in good spirits.  Looking for a change in the winds of fortune in the near future. 

                            I mentioned you on an astrological message board that I post to from time to time.  I noted that you had forced me back into a true scientific way of looking at things.  That is, if we are going to put forth certain astrological theories, the we should be willing to subject them to scientific scrutiny, and peer review.  Many astrologers find this repulsive, which I find amusing.  Then again, there are scientists with the highest of credentials who become boarderline violent if anyone questions their pet theories. 

                            There is science, and the mystery of life.  And, I think, there is a lot of overlap between the two. 

                            Hope all is well with you and yours, and that you are having a good holiday season. 

                            Live Long and Prosper
                            Ken

                             

                             

                             

                          • Loki
                            G day Ken, Life s pretty challenging for me these days. With the Aussie dollar being so strong these days, exports have been hot hard. Tertiary education is
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 19, 2011
                              G'day Ken,

                              Life's pretty challenging for me these days. With the Aussie dollar being so strong these days, exports have been hot hard. Tertiary education is our 3rd largest export (overseas students coming here to study). Enrolments are down by 20%, so with that gone so too are the short term research grants I was getting and the lecturing work I was living on. With my postgraduate scholarship terminating in a few months and now no prospects of employment, I really will be living a hand to mouth existence while I'm finishing my PhD.

                              A joke I like to tell people is that I'll have invested 8 years of my life to scholastic endeavours and then it'll be straight back to the dole queue. But the humour in that wears thinner as each day approaches whereupon the punchline will become reality.

                              Not to worry. I can still busk for a living.

                              I always find it curious that people react so strongly at the idea of applying the scientific method. Some of my friends on Facebook who you've encountered have the same kind of attitude towards science. I've given up trying to explain it to them. They're resolutely convinced that there's some conspiracy among the scientific community to deny certain forms of knowledge.

                              You should see my Facebook page. Facebook has an a filter that sorts out the priorities of the updates that people see from their friend lists. The filter is based on how often you interact with people. Seeing as I spend most of my Facebook time challenging (i.e. arguing with) my friends who are firm conspiracy theorists and into stuff like Illuminati, New World Order, chemtrails, etc. So every day I have to wade through tons of stuff like that and often there's so much of it that I never see any updates from my less suspiciously minded friends.

                              I'll tell you one thing that really gets my dander up: the use of the term Nazi. It gets bandied about so often to describe certain people, groups, and mentalities. I find it so offensive that someone would label current politicians as Nazis. Do these people seriously equate images of mass murder in death camps to current economic reforms?

                              So what do you think of the Occupy <insert city> movement? I find the Australian versions of it embarrassing. Our economy is in good shape relative to the rest of the world. What exactly do Australians (as a nation) have to complain about? Yes, a lot of us see long term job prospects disappearing for ourselves and our children, but as a nation we have little to protest about.

                              Having said that, I went and checked out the Occupy Melbourne gathering. I witnessed with my own eyes the use of mounted police against unarmed civilians (including children). Disgraceful. Criminals and gangs are treated better than protestors. The police totally engineered a riot. They wouldn't have needed the riot squad to turn up had they not precipitated the riot in the first place. Nuff said. Police brutality against unarmed civilians seems the norm these days in our so-called enlightened societies.

                              Cheers,
                              Perry

                              --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > [G'day Ken.
                              >
                              > About 25 years ago one of the blokes I lived with suffered the passing
                              > of his
                              > dad. His mum was in the group as well. It didn't escape my notice that
                              > our
                              > pastor, Rob Walsh, displayed no sympathy at all towards my mate. My mate
                              > later
                              > confirmed with me that at no time at all did Walsh offer even the
                              > slightest of
                              > condolences.
                              >
                              > That's stayed with me all these years.
                              >
                              > Cheers,
                              > Perry]
                              >
                              >
                              > The coldness was apparent. It kind of makes me wonder about the
                              > Scripture that says that the love of many will grow cold in the "last
                              > days." Jesus was disgusted with the coldness that the Pharisees showed
                              > towards those outside their group, as it is recorded in the gospels.
                              > It's really obvious when you are outside those type groups, such as the
                              > fellowship and the Pharisees, but when you are in it, you are oblivious
                              > to the coldness that you display towards others. You think that you are
                              > filled with compassion. Bizarre.
                              >
                              > Nice to see you here. I've been a bit busy with astrological study and
                              > my logistical struggles. I am somewhat weary, but in good spirits.
                              > Looking for a change in the winds of fortune in the near future.
                              >
                              > I mentioned you on an astrological message board that I post to from
                              > time to time. I noted that you had forced me back into a true
                              > scientific way of looking at things. That is, if we are going to put
                              > forth certain astrological theories, the we should be willing to subject
                              > them to scientific scrutiny, and peer review. Many astrologers find
                              > this repulsive, which I find amusing. Then again, there are scientists
                              > with the highest of credentials who become boarderline violent if anyone
                              > questions their pet theories.
                              >
                              > There is science, and the mystery of life. And, I think, there is a lot
                              > of overlap between the two.
                              >
                              > Hope all is well with you and yours, and that you are having a good
                              > holiday season.
                              >
                              > Live Long and Prosper
                              > Ken
                              >
                            • kenhaining777
                              [So what do you think of the Occupy movement? I find the Australian versions of it embarrassing. Our economy is in good shape relative to the
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 20, 2011

                                [So what do you think of the Occupy <insert city> movement? I find the Australian
                                versions of it embarrassing. Our economy is in good shape relative to the rest
                                of the world. What exactly do Australians (as a nation) have to complain about?
                                Yes, a lot of us see long term job prospects disappearing for ourselves and our
                                children, but as a nation we have little to protest about.

                                Having said that, I went and checked out the Occupy Melbourne gathering. I
                                witnessed with my own eyes the use of mounted police against unarmed civilians
                                (including children). Disgraceful. Criminals and gangs are treated better than
                                protestors. The police totally engineered a riot. They wouldn't have needed the
                                riot squad to turn up had they not precipitated the riot in the first place.
                                Nuff said. Police brutality against unarmed civilians seems the norm these days
                                in our so-called enlightened societies.

                                Cheers,
                                Perry]

                                Here in the US, the protestors had some valid issues.  While the middle class and working class people are having their living erroded away by the decisions of our politicians, investors are becoming rich.  Unfortunately, the protestors are generally unaware that the key problem is the selling of American jobs to other countries, and they are also unaware that their hero, Obama, is part of that problem.  He just signed another free trade bill that is second only to NAFTA in selling our jobs out.  So now government workers want to keep their good jobs at the taxpayers' expense, while the private sector jobs are evaporating. 

                                Also, as always will be the case, radical movements have latched onto the occupy movement.  They are like parasites when it comes to this stuff. 

                                I agree that the police in Western countries are becoming more destructively authoritative.  Police have too much power and not enough accountability.  Once they are given the green light, they have little restraint in dealing with "law breakers."  Scary stuff. 

                                As for a strong currency, that is what got us here in the US.  Japan and Switzerland have been desperate to get their currencies back down again against the the US dollar.  They may be in luck.  With the problems that Europe is having with the Euro, international investors are starting buy up US dollars at a fast pace, thus raising its value against other currencies. 

                                We also have many people here who have high academic degrees, but have no expression for their education in the economy.  I have read that the next economic bubble that is going to burst in the US is college loans.  There are all these graduates who are working at low level jobs and who owe $40,000+ in college loans.  Many are moving back in with their parents, and trying to pay off their loans, but more are just blowing it off.  As John Lennon said in one of his songs, "The dream is over." 

                                I have to wonder where Western civilization is going at this point?  Outside of doomsday predictions of the end of the world, I see that all too familiar pattern of declining powers.  If historical patterns hold, there are going to be some wars and some serious conquests in the decades to come. 

                                In any event, I hope you situation improves.  It very easily could.  30 years ago the Australian dollar was also very strong, but things eventually evened out.  I expect the same thing will happen again. 

                                Live Long and Prosper
                                Ken

                                 

                                 


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