Re: Jesus vs The Apostle Paul
- Hi there Discern99,
My name is Les, but you can call me Hairy, Laci, Laszlo, or Ruven.
What is your name, if you do not mind sharing it?
[That's all assuming that the jews had no knowledge of greek.]
Well, some Jews had and some did not have. This is not the point here. The point is, that two people who's FIRST language is Aramaic, not going to converse in their second or third language. Believe me, I know, as English is my forth language. I am not going to talk English to a Hungarian! Especially if I want to expand on the intricacy of a metaphysical question.
How we know that Jesus' first language was Aramaic? :
And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
When you are in agony, on the verge of dying, you not going to use your second or third language.
Interestingly, in John's Gospel, Jesus does not speak a word of Aramaic. But in Mark: 7:34 ... And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith to him, Effatha, that is, Be opened. ...
5:41 He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which
means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!"). ...
4:6 "Abba, Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. ...
And if you look at it stylistically, you cannot make a difference in John's Gospel, between the voice of Jesus, the writer of John's Gospel or Pilatus, for that matter.
[At that time Jerusalem was under Roman rule, and the romans spoke both greek and latin.]
Not all. The officers, who were educated yes, but the soldiers no. But this is not relevant. In Baghdad, now, two native folks not going to speak English between themselves, just because it is under US control, even if they know English.
[The Galilee region where Jesus grew up was surrounded by the 10 Decapolis cities, which were heavily influenced by greek culture. ]
This is funny! Did you mean 100 cities? As 10 X 10 (Deca-polis means ten cities) is a hundred. ;-)}}
Yes, you are right, but Nicodemus was a member of the Beith Din (Sanhedrin)! He sure spoke Hebrew and Aramaic.
[They were populated by both greeks and jews. Jesus may well have learned greek growing up in Galilee. ]
Sure, and since He was baptised in the HS. He could have "speak in tongues". ;-)}}
On the other hand, it is very questionable where Jesus grown up! Since Nazareth was not there in Jesus' time. It was not recorded anywhere. Not in the TaNaKh ... etc. Sure some Christian "archaeologist" find a cemetery, a well and now "Mary's house". Just like they find Noah's Ark.
[... The book of John states that the sign on the cross over Jesus' head was written in "hebrew, greek, and latin"...]
Yes, John would say that. But we disputing the book of John, so it is no evidence.
[I think it's likely that much of the population would be at least partially bi-lingual with so much greek influence.]
You think, but where is the evidence for this? In any case, it does not matter how many languages they spoke. The important is what was Jesus' and Nicodemus' FIRST language.
- Les said:
[Every decent religion/organisation like to lock their members in. In the case of
The Israelite/Jewish religion, they used the excommunication method. If you do
not comply with our rituals, customs and laws you are out of the camp, you are
out of our protection. Let's see how long you going to last.
The Christians did see a problem with it and fixed it up by adding Hell. So by
dying you cannot avoid punishment.
Muslims, took it a one step further, they kill the apostate, so they go to Hell
Actually the Jews, and the purveyors of other ancient religions, had the death penalty for non compliance to religious beliefs and rituals, long before the Muslims were ever thought of. The Catholic Church had approximately 68 million people executed, including 18 million Jews, over a period of centuries. In the Law of Moses it is clearly stated that those who sought after other gods were to be killed, or exiled.
The Egyptians had the idea of afterlife punishment or reward in their beliefs, so even that was not a new invention of Christianity.
I have to think that during the times of various religions gaining dominance in regions of the world that there were always those individuals who didn't really believe the religion, but had the good sense to just go along with it. They took the "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" philosophy of life. Why not do a few rituals and avoid a confrontation with religious authorities?
Of course, the antitheses of this is the story of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, who refused to bow before King Nebuchadnezzar's idol. As the story goes, God sent his angel to keep these guys from burning up in the furnace. Unfortunately, most of those people who defied the religion of their region and time did not fair so well in history.
Even in these modern times religion affects people's well being. The extreme of being killed for defying the dominant religion still exists in some nations. In other places, religious compliance, or non compliance, affects such things as economic advantage. It is a known fact that you can get better job opportunities in Utah if you convert to the Mormon church. Making connections at churches, in some places, is also an excellent way to get a job, etc.