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Re: [Escape_from_the_Fellowship] Re: Do Wayman and the Boys Have "Witchcraft Powers"?

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  • Denis Dearborn
    The mind does have a very powerful control as you said and I can think of several instances where it is proven. The Indians or native Americans had the ability
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008

      The mind does have a very powerful control as you said and I can think of several instances where it is proven. The Indians or native Americans had the ability to dig a shallow grave and wish there self to death. The famous viet nam demonstration of the monk who ignited himself on fire and didn't budge once as he burnt to a crisp. The natural reaction in combat of fight or flight and the will to live vs the will to die.All these things are proven. Even in people with chronic disease who have the will to live outlast many who don't. I look at my mom when she was dealing with her leukemia. My son as some of you know from my prior post about this was my moms hope and one of the only things that made her want to live. Once she allowed the though of "it's time for me to go enter her mind however, that's when she went down hill.

       

      As far as curses I believe what you said about having to believe in it to a point Ken. For the most part if some idiot is dancing around yelling gibberish at me and cursing me I would think a right hook to the jaw would cancel out any kind of curse rather quickly or maybe in the mind of the person trying to curse me the though of it maybe backfiring may come as a vision as he lay there wondering what just happened :)

      I also take into account those who do seem to have a true curse in there life. I happen to believe in the paranormal as you know and have seen for myself some strange things.What is interesting in many reported cases is may times people who go through say a haunting or such have no belief in the first place or just didn't buy into it. So many stories of people who talk about how they would have called anyone crazy if they explained what had happened to them now deal with something they cant fix even though they don't believe it.

      When it doesn't happen to you it's easy for any of us to dismiss and say that there is an underlying mental condition or try to assume a logical explanation to an event that happens. A relative of mine is a doctor as some of you know in the US Army. She has seen many strange things as she has been around the world such as disease that there is no known name for it and the result is that it was hexed upon the person. Is there cases of generational curses? I would say yes. I look at a friend as an example and say what you want but this is very strange. My best friend is married to a girl I grew up with. She is the middle of 3 sisters. Her mother is the soul bread winner of the house, she works, was a feminist at heart as well as her 3 daughters. All 4 of them have husbands who don't work all 4 women wear the pants in the house and all 4 women are the only source of income.

      We can say that these girls picked these men based off of there upbringing and seeing this with there dad and happened to pick up a bad trait of finding guys who are bums but that's not exactly the case. All 4 men became disabled at a young age. One at 45 years, one at 40 , one at 29 and one at 20. CFM would see this as the devil at work and say that the spirit of Jezzy runs ramped in this family.Funny thing is the grandmother said that a slave that her grandmother owned put a generational curse on the family stating that the men would be worthless and the women would have to labor for 5 generations. Not one of them believe in this yet based off of this alleged curse, it is almost by the book word for word as to what has happened throughout the history of this family.

       

      I know that's a very questionable example but I think things can happen weather we believe in them or not.

      --- On Thu, 7/31/08, kenhaining777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

      From: kenhaining777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [Escape_from_the_Fellowship] Re: Do Wayman and the Boys Have "Witchcraft Powers"?
      To: Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, July 31, 2008, 9:15 PM

      Jac said:

      [This person will do things in satans power that he
      thinks is powerful but in fact it is only powerful insomuch as the
      participants believe in the so-called power of the curse. A Christian
      who stands outside that arena and denies their power and takes
      authority over them in Jesus name has nothing to worry about. If they
      start doubting their faith or God's hand of protection then it opens
      a door for the curse to start working.]

      There was another ex member of Wayman's World, the Australian branch, who used to post here.  He mentioned once that he saw a man who was "sung to death" by the Australian version of a witchdoctor, or shaman.  He also said that when it was tried on him, it had no effect, since he didn't believe in the power of the witchdoctor.

      What you believe does affect you.  There is something to "the power of positive thinking" as well as the power of negative thinking.  It has been proven that by sheer will some people stay alive, and survive an illness, while other succumb to the same condition.

      I, naturally, do not think that it has anything to do with faith, or lack of faith, in Jesus.  It is whether or not you ascribe power to those who are cursing you and their curses.  Since I think of Satan as a mythological character, I don't think that people who are cursing others are entering into the realm of Hades.  I think they are entering into superstition and hatred. 

      On another note, do we project any kind of power with our minds and thoughts?  Sometimes you can just feel hostility coming off someone, but is that because of what they are thinking, or how they are acting, or body language, or some other physical signal?

      As I said, the "curse" of the fellowship has to do with what they do to your life while are in it, resulting in the condition that you are in when you leave it.  Even after you leave, their retarded nonsense can play on your mind.   I am just curious about this because of something I read on another message board by an ex member talking about the witchcrafts of the fellowship.  I wonder how many ex members think that the current members of Waymanland are exercising some evil spiritual force against them?

      Shalom




    • udunnojac
      Ken, The power of belief is very powerful. Take the guy in Australia who was sung to death by one of the Aborigine tribal medicine men who put the curse of
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008
        Ken,

        The power of belief is very powerful. Take the guy in Australia who
        was 'sung to death' by one of the Aborigine tribal medicine men who
        put the curse of death upon him, this guy BELIEVED in the power of
        the curse and the power behind it, the medicine man himself.

        I remember my dad saying he heard about mind control experiments the
        US Army was conducting just after WWII. He said they would take a
        test subject, rip off his shirt and strap him with restraints in a
        chair sitting backwards so the back of the chair was against his
        chest. Someone would then bring in a blow torch and light it up, then
        take the torch to a fireplace poker until it was white hot. As it
        turned white the torch man would walk behind him and tell him, this
        may hurt a bit and then slowly approach the man from behind as
        someone else took the torch from him and then hand him a chuck of
        ice. Then he would then ease up and touch the man's bare back with
        the ice. Thru the power of belief in the mans mind this would produce
        the approximate results as if he had touched the man with the white
        hot poker. The skin on the mans back would sear and produce a 3rd
        degree burn for which the man had to be taken to sick bay and treated
        as if he had been severely burned.

        Medical professionals do this all the time with placebos, giving
        patients who are deathly ill worthless pills they claim will cure a
        disease. Thru the power of belief the sick person begins to get well.

        On another note I once read a book on Human Sexual Response written
        by a team of physicians of various disciplines and specialists in
        many fields as well psychologists and psychiatrists. One of the focal
        points of the book was the fact that a great number of women are non-
        orgasmic.

        After studying this subject for several years and combining research
        from all over the world taking in consideration various cultures and
        religous practices, various stages of position as well as health
        factors, and way too many parameters for me to recite here, the
        general concensus was that the majority of women who have never
        experienced an orgasm had no physical anomallies that would prevent
        them from having an orgasm nor did they have any other particular
        condition that could be attributed to their circumstance.

        They concluded their findings by asserting that from their research
        the only possible cause for them to not have an orgasm is the fact
        that they invariably believe anytime they engage in sexual relations
        that they will not be able to have an orgasm.

        In addendum they revealed that many of the women they interviewed for
        the study over a decade long time period had agreed to undergo
        experimental therapuetic treatments in the form of psychological
        conditioning techniques in an effort to undo the negative thinking
        concerning their non-existant orgasms and in its place, re-program
        their thinking with positive thoughts. There was a significant
        percentage of women who benefitted from the program who actually
        turned themselves around with some basic re-thinking techniques which
        they were taught to do themselves, resulting in women who were able
        to become orgasmic. Of course their findings could have been skewed
        or their approach flawed.

        There were failures in the program and some of the women who didn't
        get their 'wings' so to speak were from backgrounds of abuse either
        in their childhood, adolescense or adult life. Others simply just
        couldn't change their thinking on the matter for unknown reasons.

        I do not know how accurate this study was or how real any of their
        findings were. I do know that the same book dealt with impotent men
        much the same way. Outside of having diabetes or a fatal disease,
        many men who suffer from impotence of various types do so because of
        their belief system on board in their thought process at the time. If
        they think they can perform, generally they can and invariably if
        they think that they cannot perform, to a man, they cannot.

        One has to wonder about Abraham who was well up in years, as was his
        wife Sara, when God announced he was the Father of the yet non-
        existant Hebrew Nation. My Hebrew scholar friend informs me that the
        word of God is fairly explicit in the original language that is used
        in expressing the particulars of Abe's ability to 'know' his wife
        Sara and 'go in unto her', as well as his 'visitations' with Sara's
        handmaiden Ishmael's mother. One verse I am trying to recall, which
        is in the New Testament brings this out and it sounds as of Abe had
        gotten ahold of some spiritual Viagra that enabled him to father the
        child of promise as well as the other one.

        I can hear some of those snake oil practicioners carry on in their
        Pentecostal tent revival with hearty declarations that "Abraham got a
        dose of Holy Ghost Viagra" in their description of how he fathered
        those children, which might not be too far off the mark. (I actually
        believe this is what happened!) It just sounds funny if you put it in
        tones acheived by some hollerin' and shoutin', rootin' tootin',
        carney hootin', southern fried preacher who uses all the theatrics he
        can muster up to wow his crowd.

        I believe I'll go to bed now. The power of belief has gotten the best
        of me. I believe I am tired and sleepy!

        Jac


        --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777
        <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > Jac said:
        >
        > [This person will do things in satans power that he
        > thinks is powerful but in fact it is only powerful insomuch as the
        > participants believe in the so-called power of the curse. A
        Christian
        > who stands outside that arena and denies their power and takes
        > authority over them in Jesus name has nothing to worry about. If
        they
        > start doubting their faith or God's hand of protection then it opens
        > a door for the curse to start working.]
        >
        > There was another ex member of Wayman's World, the Australian
        branch,
        > who used to post here. He mentioned once that he saw a man who was
        > "sung to death" by the Australian version of a witchdoctor, or
        shaman.
        > He also said that when it was tried on him, it had no effect, since
        he
        > didn't believe in the power of the witchdoctor.
        >
        > What you believe does affect you. There is something to "the power
        of
        > positive thinking" as well as the power of negative thinking. It
        has
        > been proven that by sheer will some people stay alive, and survive
        an
        > illness, while other succumb to the same condition.
        >
        > I, naturally, do not think that it has anything to do with faith, or
        > lack of faith, in Jesus. It is whether or not you ascribe power to
        > those who are cursing you and their curses. Since I think of Satan
        as a
        > mythological character, I don't think that people who are cursing
        others
        > are entering into the realm of Hades. I think they are entering
        into
        > superstition and hatred.
        >
        > On another note, do we project any kind of power with our minds and
        > thoughts? Sometimes you can just feel hostility coming off
        someone, but
        > is that because of what they are thinking, or how they are acting,
        or
        > body language, or some other physical signal?
        >
        > As I said, the "curse" of the fellowship has to do with what they
        do to
        > your life while are in it, resulting in the condition that you are
        in
        > when you leave it. Even after you leave, their retarded nonsense
        can
        > play on your mind. I am just curious about this because of
        something I
        > read on another message board by an ex member talking about the
        > witchcrafts of the fellowship. I wonder how many ex members think
        that
        > the current members of Waymanland are exercising some evil spiritual
        > force against them?
        >
        > Shalom
        >
      • Al-Khwarizmi
        When asking if Wayman and his cohorts have witchcraft powers, you have to think in terms of PH culture. Allow me a couple of examples. A couple of people have
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008
          When asking if Wayman and his cohorts have witchcraft powers, you have
          to think in terms of PH culture. Allow me a couple of examples. A
          couple of people have spoken about Australian aborigines. I happen to
          know a lot about that subject, being part Koori myself. The name Koori
          is how we refer to ourselves. Actually I'd prefer if you guys could
          refer to us as Koori instead of aborigines. "Aborigine" is a
          description, whereas "Koori" is our name.

          Anyway. There's a court case going on in WA in which a young Nyungah
          man (in WA the Koori call themselves Nyungah) murdered a young lady.
          He has requested that instead of receiving the white man's law, he
          return to his tribe and receive their punishment, which in this case
          would mean being speared through both legs. One of the catches
          involved is that 5 years ago a similar thing happened in the Northern
          Territory. In that case the young man was dutifully speared by his
          elders and then he turned around and filed criminal charges against
          them for grievous assault. That's one of the problems with trying to
          administer the laws and rights of two nations under one flag. This is
          an example of cross-cultural conflict.

          Another one is related to the mention of Koori men who are sung to
          death. How we treat the elderly in our societies can be quite
          different. I suspect that my dad's ferocious will to live, in
          conjunction with his cancer), will mean that he dies a slow, lingering
          death. That's supposedly our white men's idea of dignity. The Koori
          idea of a dignified death is different. When a tribal Koori man
          decides that it's time to die, he'll simply walk out bush and lie
          under a tree and wait for death. No questions asked. Nobody is forced
          into doing that, but that's the cultural thing. The tribes do that
          with domestic animals as well. Like if they decide that a pet dog is
          too old bear the burden of feeding, they'll walk the dog out bush, tie
          it to a tree, and walk away. You might think that the RSPCA should be
          called, but that's the culture. At any rate, an old dog will not last
          very long in 40 degree heat (that's about 100 F).

          Some may be offended that I'm comparing elderly men to dogs, but then
          you have to understand the cultural difference. The Koori have a
          different relationship to the land than us urban white folk. In some
          ways the Koori see the spirit of a man and the spirit of a dog as
          roughly the same thing. I'm not going to go into detail. It's a hole
          different spiritual issue to what we're used to with out
          Judao-Christian ideas.

          So looking at the PH, I think that, yes, they do have witchcraft
          powers. Not that I believe they do from my perspective. But from their
          perspective, they believe in all that. I remember being taught that
          stuff myself and believing it. So do they have powers of witchcraft
          over people like myself, George, Dennis and Nancy? No. We don't
          ascribe to that belief system. But if some of us cast our minds back
          to when we just left, then yes, we were heavily influenced by the
          thoughts of the people we left behind.




          --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, udunnojac
          <no_reply@...> wrote:
          >
          > Ken,
          >
          > The power of belief is very powerful. Take the guy in Australia who
          > was 'sung to death' by one of the Aborigine tribal medicine men who
          > put the curse of death upon him, this guy BELIEVED in the power of
          > the curse and the power behind it, the medicine man himself.
          >
          > I remember my dad saying he heard about mind control experiments the
          > US Army was conducting just after WWII. He said they would take a
          > test subject, rip off his shirt and strap him with restraints in a
          > chair sitting backwards so the back of the chair was against his
          > chest. Someone would then bring in a blow torch and light it up, then
          > take the torch to a fireplace poker until it was white hot. As it
          > turned white the torch man would walk behind him and tell him, this
          > may hurt a bit and then slowly approach the man from behind as
          > someone else took the torch from him and then hand him a chuck of
          > ice. Then he would then ease up and touch the man's bare back with
          > the ice. Thru the power of belief in the mans mind this would produce
          > the approximate results as if he had touched the man with the white
          > hot poker. The skin on the mans back would sear and produce a 3rd
          > degree burn for which the man had to be taken to sick bay and treated
          > as if he had been severely burned.
          >
          > Medical professionals do this all the time with placebos, giving
          > patients who are deathly ill worthless pills they claim will cure a
          > disease. Thru the power of belief the sick person begins to get well.
          >
          > On another note I once read a book on Human Sexual Response written
          > by a team of physicians of various disciplines and specialists in
          > many fields as well psychologists and psychiatrists. One of the focal
          > points of the book was the fact that a great number of women are non-
          > orgasmic.
          >
          > After studying this subject for several years and combining research
          > from all over the world taking in consideration various cultures and
          > religous practices, various stages of position as well as health
          > factors, and way too many parameters for me to recite here, the
          > general concensus was that the majority of women who have never
          > experienced an orgasm had no physical anomallies that would prevent
          > them from having an orgasm nor did they have any other particular
          > condition that could be attributed to their circumstance.
          >
          > They concluded their findings by asserting that from their research
          > the only possible cause for them to not have an orgasm is the fact
          > that they invariably believe anytime they engage in sexual relations
          > that they will not be able to have an orgasm.
          >
          > In addendum they revealed that many of the women they interviewed for
          > the study over a decade long time period had agreed to undergo
          > experimental therapuetic treatments in the form of psychological
          > conditioning techniques in an effort to undo the negative thinking
          > concerning their non-existant orgasms and in its place, re-program
          > their thinking with positive thoughts. There was a significant
          > percentage of women who benefitted from the program who actually
          > turned themselves around with some basic re-thinking techniques which
          > they were taught to do themselves, resulting in women who were able
          > to become orgasmic. Of course their findings could have been skewed
          > or their approach flawed.
          >
          > There were failures in the program and some of the women who didn't
          > get their 'wings' so to speak were from backgrounds of abuse either
          > in their childhood, adolescense or adult life. Others simply just
          > couldn't change their thinking on the matter for unknown reasons.
          >
          > I do not know how accurate this study was or how real any of their
          > findings were. I do know that the same book dealt with impotent men
          > much the same way. Outside of having diabetes or a fatal disease,
          > many men who suffer from impotence of various types do so because of
          > their belief system on board in their thought process at the time. If
          > they think they can perform, generally they can and invariably if
          > they think that they cannot perform, to a man, they cannot.
          >
          > One has to wonder about Abraham who was well up in years, as was his
          > wife Sara, when God announced he was the Father of the yet non-
          > existant Hebrew Nation. My Hebrew scholar friend informs me that the
          > word of God is fairly explicit in the original language that is used
          > in expressing the particulars of Abe's ability to 'know' his wife
          > Sara and 'go in unto her', as well as his 'visitations' with Sara's
          > handmaiden Ishmael's mother. One verse I am trying to recall, which
          > is in the New Testament brings this out and it sounds as of Abe had
          > gotten ahold of some spiritual Viagra that enabled him to father the
          > child of promise as well as the other one.
          >
          > I can hear some of those snake oil practicioners carry on in their
          > Pentecostal tent revival with hearty declarations that "Abraham got a
          > dose of Holy Ghost Viagra" in their description of how he fathered
          > those children, which might not be too far off the mark. (I actually
          > believe this is what happened!) It just sounds funny if you put it in
          > tones acheived by some hollerin' and shoutin', rootin' tootin',
          > carney hootin', southern fried preacher who uses all the theatrics he
          > can muster up to wow his crowd.
          >
          > I believe I'll go to bed now. The power of belief has gotten the best
          > of me. I believe I am tired and sleepy!
          >
          > Jac
          >
          >
          > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777
          > <no_reply@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Jac said:
          > >
          > > [This person will do things in satans power that he
          > > thinks is powerful but in fact it is only powerful insomuch as the
          > > participants believe in the so-called power of the curse. A
          > Christian
          > > who stands outside that arena and denies their power and takes
          > > authority over them in Jesus name has nothing to worry about. If
          > they
          > > start doubting their faith or God's hand of protection then it opens
          > > a door for the curse to start working.]
          > >
          > > There was another ex member of Wayman's World, the Australian
          > branch,
          > > who used to post here. He mentioned once that he saw a man who was
          > > "sung to death" by the Australian version of a witchdoctor, or
          > shaman.
          > > He also said that when it was tried on him, it had no effect, since
          > he
          > > didn't believe in the power of the witchdoctor.
          > >
          > > What you believe does affect you. There is something to "the power
          > of
          > > positive thinking" as well as the power of negative thinking. It
          > has
          > > been proven that by sheer will some people stay alive, and survive
          > an
          > > illness, while other succumb to the same condition.
          > >
          > > I, naturally, do not think that it has anything to do with faith, or
          > > lack of faith, in Jesus. It is whether or not you ascribe power to
          > > those who are cursing you and their curses. Since I think of Satan
          > as a
          > > mythological character, I don't think that people who are cursing
          > others
          > > are entering into the realm of Hades. I think they are entering
          > into
          > > superstition and hatred.
          > >
          > > On another note, do we project any kind of power with our minds and
          > > thoughts? Sometimes you can just feel hostility coming off
          > someone, but
          > > is that because of what they are thinking, or how they are acting,
          > or
          > > body language, or some other physical signal?
          > >
          > > As I said, the "curse" of the fellowship has to do with what they
          > do to
          > > your life while are in it, resulting in the condition that you are
          > in
          > > when you leave it. Even after you leave, their retarded nonsense
          > can
          > > play on your mind. I am just curious about this because of
          > something I
          > > read on another message board by an ex member talking about the
          > > witchcrafts of the fellowship. I wonder how many ex members think
          > that
          > > the current members of Waymanland are exercising some evil spiritual
          > > force against them?
          > >
          > > Shalom
          > >
          >
        • nancyinsanantone
          I m curious. How is someone sung to death ? I have heard some people sing that were pretty damn horrific, but as far as I know they never killed anyone... So
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008

            I'm curious. 

             How is someone "sung to death"?  I have heard some people sing that were pretty damn horrific, but as far as I know they never killed anyone... So what does that mean? Sung to death? Someone elaborate.

            By the way, interesting, uhm, study....

            Is it just me, or is it getting hot in here?

            Yall have a good weekend....

            Nancy

            --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, udunnojac <no_reply@...> wrote:
            >
            > Ken,
            >
            > The power of belief is very powerful. Take the guy in Australia who
            > was 'sung to death' by one of the Aborigine tribal medicine men who
            > put the curse of death upon him, this guy BELIEVED in the power of
            > the curse and the power behind it, the medicine man himself.
            >
            > I remember my dad saying he heard about mind control experiments the
            > US Army was conducting just after WWII. He said they would take a
            > test subject, rip off his shirt and strap him with restraints in a
            > chair sitting backwards so the back of the chair was against his
            > chest. Someone would then bring in a blow torch and light it up, then
            > take the torch to a fireplace poker until it was white hot. As it
            > turned white the torch man would walk behind him and tell him, this
            > may hurt a bit and then slowly approach the man from behind as
            > someone else took the torch from him and then hand him a chuck of
            > ice. Then he would then ease up and touch the man's bare back with
            > the ice. Thru the power of belief in the mans mind this would produce
            > the approximate results as if he had touched the man with the white
            > hot poker. The skin on the mans back would sear and produce a 3rd
            > degree burn for which the man had to be taken to sick bay and treated
            > as if he had been severely burned.
            >
            > Medical professionals do this all the time with placebos, giving
            > patients who are deathly ill worthless pills they claim will cure a
            > disease. Thru the power of belief the sick person begins to get well.
            >
            > On another note I once read a book on Human Sexual Response written
            > by a team of physicians of various disciplines and specialists in
            > many fields as well psychologists and psychiatrists. One of the focal
            > points of the book was the fact that a great number of women are non-
            > orgasmic.
            >
            > After studying this subject for several years and combining research
            > from all over the world taking in consideration various cultures and
            > religous practices, various stages of position as well as health
            > factors, and way too many parameters for me to recite here, the
            > general concensus was that the majority of women who have never
            > experienced an orgasm had no physical anomallies that would prevent
            > them from having an orgasm nor did they have any other particular
            > condition that could be attributed to their circumstance.
            >
            > They concluded their findings by asserting that from their research
            > the only possible cause for them to not have an orgasm is the fact
            > that they invariably believe anytime they engage in sexual relations
            > that they will not be able to have an orgasm.
            >
            > In addendum they revealed that many of the women they interviewed for
            > the study over a decade long time period had agreed to undergo
            > experimental therapuetic treatments in the form of psychological
            > conditioning techniques in an effort to undo the negative thinking
            > concerning their non-existant orgasms and in its place, re-program
            > their thinking with positive thoughts. There was a significant
            > percentage of women who benefitted from the program who actually
            > turned themselves around with some basic re-thinking techniques which
            > they were taught to do themselves, resulting in women who were able
            > to become orgasmic. Of course their findings could have been skewed
            > or their approach flawed.
            >
            > There were failures in the program and some of the women who didn't
            > get their 'wings' so to speak were from backgrounds of abuse either
            > in their childhood, adolescense or adult life. Others simply just
            > couldn't change their thinking on the matter for unknown reasons.
            >
            > I do not know how accurate this study was or how real any of their
            > findings were. I do know that the same book dealt with impotent men
            > much the same way. Outside of having diabetes or a fatal disease,
            > many men who suffer from impotence of various types do so because of
            > their belief system on board in their thought process at the time. If
            > they think they can perform, generally they can and invariably if
            > they think that they cannot perform, to a man, they cannot.
            >
            > One has to wonder about Abraham who was well up in years, as was his
            > wife Sara, when God announced he was the Father of the yet non-
            > existant Hebrew Nation. My Hebrew scholar friend informs me that the
            > word of God is fairly explicit in the original language that is used
            > in expressing the particulars of Abe's ability to 'know' his wife
            > Sara and 'go in unto her', as well as his 'visitations' with Sara's
            > handmaiden Ishmael's mother. One verse I am trying to recall, which
            > is in the New Testament brings this out and it sounds as of Abe had
            > gotten ahold of some spiritual Viagra that enabled him to father the
            > child of promise as well as the other one.
            >
            > I can hear some of those snake oil practicioners carry on in their
            > Pentecostal tent revival with hearty declarations that "Abraham got a
            > dose of Holy Ghost Viagra" in their description of how he fathered
            > those children, which might not be too far off the mark. (I actually
            > believe this is what happened!) It just sounds funny if you put it in
            > tones acheived by some hollerin' and shoutin', rootin' tootin',
            > carney hootin', southern fried preacher who uses all the theatrics he
            > can muster up to wow his crowd.
            >
            > I believe I'll go to bed now. The power of belief has gotten the best
            > of me. I believe I am tired and sleepy!
            >
            > Jac
            >
            >
            > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777
            > no_reply@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Jac said:
            > >
            > > [This person will do things in satans power that he
            > > thinks is powerful but in fact it is only powerful insomuch as the
            > > participants believe in the so-called power of the curse. A
            > Christian
            > > who stands outside that arena and denies their power and takes
            > > authority over them in Jesus name has nothing to worry about. If
            > they
            > > start doubting their faith or God's hand of protection then it opens
            > > a door for the curse to start working.]
            > >
            > > There was another ex member of Wayman's World, the Australian
            > branch,
            > > who used to post here. He mentioned once that he saw a man who was
            > > "sung to death" by the Australian version of a witchdoctor, or
            > shaman.
            > > He also said that when it was tried on him, it had no effect, since
            > he
            > > didn't believe in the power of the witchdoctor.
            > >
            > > What you believe does affect you. There is something to "the power
            > of
            > > positive thinking" as well as the power of negative thinking. It
            > has
            > > been proven that by sheer will some people stay alive, and survive
            > an
            > > illness, while other succumb to the same condition.
            > >
            > > I, naturally, do not think that it has anything to do with faith, or
            > > lack of faith, in Jesus. It is whether or not you ascribe power to
            > > those who are cursing you and their curses. Since I think of Satan
            > as a
            > > mythological character, I don't think that people who are cursing
            > others
            > > are entering into the realm of Hades. I think they are entering
            > into
            > > superstition and hatred.
            > >
            > > On another note, do we project any kind of power with our minds and
            > > thoughts? Sometimes you can just feel hostility coming off
            > someone, but
            > > is that because of what they are thinking, or how they are acting,
            > or
            > > body language, or some other physical signal?
            > >
            > > As I said, the "curse" of the fellowship has to do with what they
            > do to
            > > your life while are in it, resulting in the condition that you are
            > in
            > > when you leave it. Even after you leave, their retarded nonsense
            > can
            > > play on your mind. I am just curious about this because of
            > something I
            > > read on another message board by an ex member talking about the
            > > witchcrafts of the fellowship. I wonder how many ex members think
            > that
            > > the current members of Waymanland are exercising some evil spiritual
            > > force against them?
            > >
            > > Shalom
            > >
            >

          • kenhaining777
            Dennis said: [I know that s a very questionable example but I think things can happen whether we believe in them or not.] One of the aspects of this that I am
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008
              Dennis said:

              [I know that's a very questionable example but I think things can happen whether we believe in them or not.]

              One of the aspects of this that I am trying to get at is do ex members of the fellowship think that Satan gets involved when misguided or fake Christians pray curses on others?

              I consider Satan pure mythology.  So, I wonder about psychological or psychic effects of projected hatred and such.  However, I have heard and read things said by ex members of Waymanland that they believe those prayers are demonic.  I have even heard and read the term "Pentecostal witchcraft." 

              When I was still in Wayman's World, I preached for a pastor who boasted that he had been personally instructed by Lord Wayman himself on how to curse ex members.  This pastor had gone through a major church split in the aftermath of the 1990 exodus.  He gleefully told me how he had cursed this couple who left the church, and this couple then had a boating accident that set them back $100,000.  His reason for cursing their resources was that they had left his church and had thus withdrawn their considerable tithes and offerings, as they were very well off financially.  He considered that they had stolen that money out of his church and from God.  My question would be how people view the accident.  Coincidence, psychological conditioning, psychic power, or Satan?

              I am curious as to whether or not ex members think that Satan gets involved in the prayers of current fellowship members who are cursing them.  The fellowship believes that Satan gets involved in ex members "speaking against" what they consider to be the kingdom of God.  Again, many times with different sects, each accuses the other of being agents of Satan, while lifting themselves up as the true people of God. 

              Shalom




            • potkonyak
              Nancy wrote: [How is someone sung to death ? I have heard some people sing that were pretty damn horrific, but as far as I know they never killed anyone...]
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008
                Nancy wrote:
                [How is someone "sung to death"? I have heard some people sing that
                were pretty damn horrific, but as far as I know they never killed
                anyone...]

                Obviously, Nancy, you never heard me singing...;^)

                shalom
                george
              • nancyinsanantone
                Obviously not. I m still sitting here. Somewhat alive. And quite bored at the moment to boot. I still want to know about sung to death though... Have a good
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008

                  Obviously not.

                   I'm still sitting here. Somewhat alive.

                  And quite bored at the moment to boot.

                  I still want to know about "sung to death" though...

                  Have a good night, George....


                  --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, potkonyak <no_reply@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Nancy wrote:
                  > [How is someone "sung to death"? I have heard some people sing that
                  > were pretty damn horrific, but as far as I know they never killed
                  > anyone...]
                  >
                  > Obviously, Nancy, you never heard me singing...;^)
                  >
                  > shalom
                  > george
                  >

                • udunnojac
                  Nancy, Here is a link about the sung to death curse: http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/bradshaws/unambal6.php Jac ... that ... who ... who ... the ... then
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008
                    Nancy,

                    Here is a link about the 'sung to death' curse:

                    http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/bradshaws/unambal6.php

                    Jac

                    --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, nancyinsanantone
                    <no_reply@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I'm curious.
                    >
                    > How is someone "sung to death"? I have heard some people sing
                    that
                    > were pretty damn horrific, but as far as I know they never killed
                    > anyone... So what does that mean? Sung to death? Someone elaborate.
                    >
                    > By the way, interesting, uhm, study....
                    >
                    > Is it just me, or is it getting hot in here?
                    >
                    > Yall have a good weekend....
                    >
                    > Nancy
                    > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, udunnojac
                    > <no_reply@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Ken,
                    > >
                    > > The power of belief is very powerful. Take the guy in Australia
                    who
                    > > was 'sung to death' by one of the Aborigine tribal medicine men
                    who
                    > > put the curse of death upon him, this guy BELIEVED in the power of
                    > > the curse and the power behind it, the medicine man himself.
                    > >
                    > > I remember my dad saying he heard about mind control experiments
                    the
                    > > US Army was conducting just after WWII. He said they would take a
                    > > test subject, rip off his shirt and strap him with restraints in a
                    > > chair sitting backwards so the back of the chair was against his
                    > > chest. Someone would then bring in a blow torch and light it up,
                    then
                    > > take the torch to a fireplace poker until it was white hot. As it
                    > > turned white the torch man would walk behind him and tell him,
                    this
                    > > may hurt a bit and then slowly approach the man from behind as
                    > > someone else took the torch from him and then hand him a chuck of
                    > > ice. Then he would then ease up and touch the man's bare back with
                    > > the ice. Thru the power of belief in the mans mind this would
                    produce
                    > > the approximate results as if he had touched the man with the
                    white
                    > > hot poker. The skin on the mans back would sear and produce a 3rd
                    > > degree burn for which the man had to be taken to sick bay and
                    treated
                    > > as if he had been severely burned.
                    > >
                    > > Medical professionals do this all the time with placebos, giving
                    > > patients who are deathly ill worthless pills they claim will cure
                    a
                    > > disease. Thru the power of belief the sick person begins to get
                    well.
                    > >
                    > > On another note I once read a book on Human Sexual Response
                    written
                    > > by a team of physicians of various disciplines and specialists in
                    > > many fields as well psychologists and psychiatrists. One of the
                    focal
                    > > points of the book was the fact that a great number of women are
                    non-
                    > > orgasmic.
                    > >
                    > > After studying this subject for several years and combining
                    research
                    > > from all over the world taking in consideration various cultures
                    and
                    > > religous practices, various stages of position as well as health
                    > > factors, and way too many parameters for me to recite here, the
                    > > general concensus was that the majority of women who have never
                    > > experienced an orgasm had no physical anomallies that would
                    prevent
                    > > them from having an orgasm nor did they have any other particular
                    > > condition that could be attributed to their circumstance.
                    > >
                    > > They concluded their findings by asserting that from their
                    research
                    > > the only possible cause for them to not have an orgasm is the fact
                    > > that they invariably believe anytime they engage in sexual
                    relations
                    > > that they will not be able to have an orgasm.
                    > >
                    > > In addendum they revealed that many of the women they interviewed
                    for
                    > > the study over a decade long time period had agreed to undergo
                    > > experimental therapuetic treatments in the form of psychological
                    > > conditioning techniques in an effort to undo the negative thinking
                    > > concerning their non-existant orgasms and in its place, re-program
                    > > their thinking with positive thoughts. There was a significant
                    > > percentage of women who benefitted from the program who actually
                    > > turned themselves around with some basic re-thinking techniques
                    which
                    > > they were taught to do themselves, resulting in women who were
                    able
                    > > to become orgasmic. Of course their findings could have been
                    skewed
                    > > or their approach flawed.
                    > >
                    > > There were failures in the program and some of the women who
                    didn't
                    > > get their 'wings' so to speak were from backgrounds of abuse
                    either
                    > > in their childhood, adolescense or adult life. Others simply just
                    > > couldn't change their thinking on the matter for unknown reasons.
                    > >
                    > > I do not know how accurate this study was or how real any of their
                    > > findings were. I do know that the same book dealt with impotent
                    men
                    > > much the same way. Outside of having diabetes or a fatal disease,
                    > > many men who suffer from impotence of various types do so because
                    of
                    > > their belief system on board in their thought process at the
                    time. If
                    > > they think they can perform, generally they can and invariably if
                    > > they think that they cannot perform, to a man, they cannot.
                    > >
                    > > One has to wonder about Abraham who was well up in years, as was
                    his
                    > > wife Sara, when God announced he was the Father of the yet non-
                    > > existant Hebrew Nation. My Hebrew scholar friend informs me that
                    the
                    > > word of God is fairly explicit in the original language that is
                    used
                    > > in expressing the particulars of Abe's ability to 'know' his wife
                    > > Sara and 'go in unto her', as well as his 'visitations' with
                    Sara's
                    > > handmaiden Ishmael's mother. One verse I am trying to recall,
                    which
                    > > is in the New Testament brings this out and it sounds as of Abe
                    had
                    > > gotten ahold of some spiritual Viagra that enabled him to father
                    the
                    > > child of promise as well as the other one.
                    > >
                    > > I can hear some of those snake oil practicioners carry on in their
                    > > Pentecostal tent revival with hearty declarations that "Abraham
                    got a
                    > > dose of Holy Ghost Viagra" in their description of how he fathered
                    > > those children, which might not be too far off the mark. (I
                    actually
                    > > believe this is what happened!) It just sounds funny if you put
                    it in
                    > > tones acheived by some hollerin' and shoutin', rootin' tootin',
                    > > carney hootin', southern fried preacher who uses all the
                    theatrics he
                    > > can muster up to wow his crowd.
                    > >
                    > > I believe I'll go to bed now. The power of belief has gotten the
                    best
                    > > of me. I believe I am tired and sleepy!
                    > >
                    > > Jac
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777
                    > > no_reply@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Jac said:
                    > > >
                    > > > [This person will do things in satans power that he
                    > > > thinks is powerful but in fact it is only powerful insomuch as
                    the
                    > > > participants believe in the so-called power of the curse. A
                    > > Christian
                    > > > who stands outside that arena and denies their power and takes
                    > > > authority over them in Jesus name has nothing to worry about. If
                    > > they
                    > > > start doubting their faith or God's hand of protection then it
                    opens
                    > > > a door for the curse to start working.]
                    > > >
                    > > > There was another ex member of Wayman's World, the Australian
                    > > branch,
                    > > > who used to post here. He mentioned once that he saw a man who
                    was
                    > > > "sung to death" by the Australian version of a witchdoctor, or
                    > > shaman.
                    > > > He also said that when it was tried on him, it had no effect,
                    since
                    > > he
                    > > > didn't believe in the power of the witchdoctor.
                    > > >
                    > > > What you believe does affect you. There is something to "the
                    power
                    > > of
                    > > > positive thinking" as well as the power of negative thinking. It
                    > > has
                    > > > been proven that by sheer will some people stay alive, and
                    survive
                    > > an
                    > > > illness, while other succumb to the same condition.
                    > > >
                    > > > I, naturally, do not think that it has anything to do with
                    faith, or
                    > > > lack of faith, in Jesus. It is whether or not you ascribe power
                    to
                    > > > those who are cursing you and their curses. Since I think of
                    Satan
                    > > as a
                    > > > mythological character, I don't think that people who are
                    cursing
                    > > others
                    > > > are entering into the realm of Hades. I think they are entering
                    > > into
                    > > > superstition and hatred.
                    > > >
                    > > > On another note, do we project any kind of power with our minds
                    and
                    > > > thoughts? Sometimes you can just feel hostility coming off
                    > > someone, but
                    > > > is that because of what they are thinking, or how they are
                    acting,
                    > > or
                    > > > body language, or some other physical signal?
                    > > >
                    > > > As I said, the "curse" of the fellowship has to do with what
                    they
                    > > do to
                    > > > your life while are in it, resulting in the condition that you
                    are
                    > > in
                    > > > when you leave it. Even after you leave, their retarded nonsense
                    > > can
                    > > > play on your mind. I am just curious about this because of
                    > > something I
                    > > > read on another message board by an ex member talking about the
                    > > > witchcrafts of the fellowship. I wonder how many ex members
                    think
                    > > that
                    > > > the current members of Waymanland are exercising some evil
                    spiritual
                    > > > force against them?
                    > > >
                    > > > Shalom
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • nancyinsanantone
                    Well, thank you Jac. This has been one of the slowest days I have ever had at work... I shall go to this site post haste and see what the hoop-la is all
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008

                      Well, thank you Jac.

                      This has been one of the slowest days I have ever had at work... I shall go to this site post haste and see what the hoop-la is all about...

                      Have a good weekend...

                      Nancy

                      --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, udunnojac <no_reply@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Nancy,
                      >
                      > Here is a link about the 'sung to death' curse:
                      >
                      > http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/bradshaws/unambal6.php
                      >
                      > Jac
                      >
                      > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, nancyinsanantone
                      > no_reply@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I'm curious.
                      > >
                      > > How is someone "sung to death"? I have heard some people sing
                      > that
                      > > were pretty damn horrific, but as far as I know they never killed
                      > > anyone... So what does that mean? Sung to death? Someone elaborate.
                      > >
                      > > By the way, interesting, uhm, study....
                      > >
                      > > Is it just me, or is it getting hot in here?
                      > >
                      > > Yall have a good weekend....
                      > >
                      > > Nancy
                      > > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, udunnojac
                      > > <no_reply@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Ken,
                      > > >
                      > > > The power of belief is very powerful. Take the guy in Australia
                      > who
                      > > > was 'sung to death' by one of the Aborigine tribal medicine men
                      > who
                      > > > put the curse of death upon him, this guy BELIEVED in the power of
                      > > > the curse and the power behind it, the medicine man himself.
                      > > >
                      > > > I remember my dad saying he heard about mind control experiments
                      > the
                      > > > US Army was conducting just after WWII. He said they would take a
                      > > > test subject, rip off his shirt and strap him with restraints in a
                      > > > chair sitting backwards so the back of the chair was against his
                      > > > chest. Someone would then bring in a blow torch and light it up,
                      > then
                      > > > take the torch to a fireplace poker until it was white hot. As it
                      > > > turned white the torch man would walk behind him and tell him,
                      > this
                      > > > may hurt a bit and then slowly approach the man from behind as
                      > > > someone else took the torch from him and then hand him a chuck of
                      > > > ice. Then he would then ease up and touch the man's bare back with
                      > > > the ice. Thru the power of belief in the mans mind this would
                      > produce
                      > > > the approximate results as if he had touched the man with the
                      > white
                      > > > hot poker. The skin on the mans back would sear and produce a 3rd
                      > > > degree burn for which the man had to be taken to sick bay and
                      > treated
                      > > > as if he had been severely burned.
                      > > >
                      > > > Medical professionals do this all the time with placebos, giving
                      > > > patients who are deathly ill worthless pills they claim will cure
                      > a
                      > > > disease. Thru the power of belief the sick person begins to get
                      > well.
                      > > >
                      > > > On another note I once read a book on Human Sexual Response
                      > written
                      > > > by a team of physicians of various disciplines and specialists in
                      > > > many fields as well psychologists and psychiatrists. One of the
                      > focal
                      > > > points of the book was the fact that a great number of women are
                      > non-
                      > > > orgasmic.
                      > > >
                      > > > After studying this subject for several years and combining
                      > research
                      > > > from all over the world taking in consideration various cultures
                      > and
                      > > > religous practices, various stages of position as well as health
                      > > > factors, and way too many parameters for me to recite here, the
                      > > > general concensus was that the majority of women who have never
                      > > > experienced an orgasm had no physical anomallies that would
                      > prevent
                      > > > them from having an orgasm nor did they have any other particular
                      > > > condition that could be attributed to their circumstance.
                      > > >
                      > > > They concluded their findings by asserting that from their
                      > research
                      > > > the only possible cause for them to not have an orgasm is the fact
                      > > > that they invariably believe anytime they engage in sexual
                      > relations
                      > > > that they will not be able to have an orgasm.
                      > > >
                      > > > In addendum they revealed that many of the women they interviewed
                      > for
                      > > > the study over a decade long time period had agreed to undergo
                      > > > experimental therapuetic treatments in the form of psychological
                      > > > conditioning techniques in an effort to undo the negative thinking
                      > > > concerning their non-existant orgasms and in its place, re-program
                      > > > their thinking with positive thoughts. There was a significant
                      > > > percentage of women who benefitted from the program who actually
                      > > > turned themselves around with some basic re-thinking techniques
                      > which
                      > > > they were taught to do themselves, resulting in women who were
                      > able
                      > > > to become orgasmic. Of course their findings could have been
                      > skewed
                      > > > or their approach flawed.
                      > > >
                      > > > There were failures in the program and some of the women who
                      > didn't
                      > > > get their 'wings' so to speak were from backgrounds of abuse
                      > either
                      > > > in their childhood, adolescense or adult life. Others simply just
                      > > > couldn't change their thinking on the matter for unknown reasons.
                      > > >
                      > > > I do not know how accurate this study was or how real any of their
                      > > > findings were. I do know that the same book dealt with impotent
                      > men
                      > > > much the same way. Outside of having diabetes or a fatal disease,
                      > > > many men who suffer from impotence of various types do so because
                      > of
                      > > > their belief system on board in their thought process at the
                      > time. If
                      > > > they think they can perform, generally they can and invariably if
                      > > > they think that they cannot perform, to a man, they cannot.
                      > > >
                      > > > One has to wonder about Abraham who was well up in years, as was
                      > his
                      > > > wife Sara, when God announced he was the Father of the yet non-
                      > > > existant Hebrew Nation. My Hebrew scholar friend informs me that
                      > the
                      > > > word of God is fairly explicit in the original language that is
                      > used
                      > > > in expressing the particulars of Abe's ability to 'know' his wife
                      > > > Sara and 'go in unto her', as well as his 'visitations' with
                      > Sara's
                      > > > handmaiden Ishmael's mother. One verse I am trying to recall,
                      > which
                      > > > is in the New Testament brings this out and it sounds as of Abe
                      > had
                      > > > gotten ahold of some spiritual Viagra that enabled him to father
                      > the
                      > > > child of promise as well as the other one.
                      > > >
                      > > > I can hear some of those snake oil practicioners carry on in their
                      > > > Pentecostal tent revival with hearty declarations that "Abraham
                      > got a
                      > > > dose of Holy Ghost Viagra" in their description of how he fathered
                      > > > those children, which might not be too far off the mark. (I
                      > actually
                      > > > believe this is what happened!) It just sounds funny if you put
                      > it in
                      > > > tones acheived by some hollerin' and shoutin', rootin' tootin',
                      > > > carney hootin', southern fried preacher who uses all the
                      > theatrics he
                      > > > can muster up to wow his crowd.
                      > > >
                      > > > I believe I'll go to bed now. The power of belief has gotten the
                      > best
                      > > > of me. I believe I am tired and sleepy!
                      > > >
                      > > > Jac
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777
                      > > > no_reply@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Jac said:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [This person will do things in satans power that he
                      > > > > thinks is powerful but in fact it is only powerful insomuch as
                      > the
                      > > > > participants believe in the so-called power of the curse. A
                      > > > Christian
                      > > > > who stands outside that arena and denies their power and takes
                      > > > > authority over them in Jesus name has nothing to worry about. If
                      > > > they
                      > > > > start doubting their faith or God's hand of protection then it
                      > opens
                      > > > > a door for the curse to start working.]
                      > > > >
                      > > > > There was another ex member of Wayman's World, the Australian
                      > > > branch,
                      > > > > who used to post here. He mentioned once that he saw a man who
                      > was
                      > > > > "sung to death" by the Australian version of a witchdoctor, or
                      > > > shaman.
                      > > > > He also said that when it was tried on him, it had no effect,
                      > since
                      > > > he
                      > > > > didn't believe in the power of the witchdoctor.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > What you believe does affect you. There is something to "the
                      > power
                      > > > of
                      > > > > positive thinking" as well as the power of negative thinking. It
                      > > > has
                      > > > > been proven that by sheer will some people stay alive, and
                      > survive
                      > > > an
                      > > > > illness, while other succumb to the same condition.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I, naturally, do not think that it has anything to do with
                      > faith, or
                      > > > > lack of faith, in Jesus. It is whether or not you ascribe power
                      > to
                      > > > > those who are cursing you and their curses. Since I think of
                      > Satan
                      > > > as a
                      > > > > mythological character, I don't think that people who are
                      > cursing
                      > > > others
                      > > > > are entering into the realm of Hades. I think they are entering
                      > > > into
                      > > > > superstition and hatred.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On another note, do we project any kind of power with our minds
                      > and
                      > > > > thoughts? Sometimes you can just feel hostility coming off
                      > > > someone, but
                      > > > > is that because of what they are thinking, or how they are
                      > acting,
                      > > > or
                      > > > > body language, or some other physical signal?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > As I said, the "curse" of the fellowship has to do with what
                      > they
                      > > > do to
                      > > > > your life while are in it, resulting in the condition that you
                      > are
                      > > > in
                      > > > > when you leave it. Even after you leave, their retarded nonsense
                      > > > can
                      > > > > play on your mind. I am just curious about this because of
                      > > > something I
                      > > > > read on another message board by an ex member talking about the
                      > > > > witchcrafts of the fellowship. I wonder how many ex members
                      > think
                      > > > that
                      > > > > the current members of Waymanland are exercising some evil
                      > spiritual
                      > > > > force against them?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Shalom
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >

                    • udunnojac
                      You know I got to thinking about this a little more and it hit me that Wayman believes something that a lot of Pentecostals believe, that they have the God
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008
                        You know I got to thinking about this a little more and it hit me
                        that Wayman believes something that a lot of Pentecostals believe,
                        that they have the God given right and power to pronounce a curse
                        over a person or a situation and they base it out of mishandling the
                        word of God that they supposedly subscribe to which we know as the
                        Bible. For example, this whole "binding and loosing" business is
                        taken way out of context and in that improper usage they claim powers
                        from God that really are not part of the contract that God has struck
                        with his people - that is those who follow Him.

                        Just like when Wayman Mitchell spoke out at the last Foursquare
                        Convention he was asked to speak at in 1983 which was the last time
                        he entered a Foursquare puplit. That day he basically give his answer
                        to his superiors who had demanded an answer from him in regards as to
                        whether he would abide to Foursquare distinctives and bylaws and the
                        ultimatims that SW District Superintentand Dr. John Holland had given
                        him to either get in line or get out of Foursquare. Holland had
                        passed down the demands of headquarters that Mitchell was to
                        discontinue his discipleship program of sending out men to pioneer
                        churches who had been only discipled in ministry under his wing so to
                        speak rather than receiving proper Bible college training. They also
                        demanded that he relinquish tithes he had collected from those
                        churches but had failed to report and share with the mother church in
                        Los Angeles, Angelus Temple.

                        Mitchell had balked at their demands only weeks earlier refusing to
                        abide by their requests and had promised to give them an answer at
                        their next Convention which was to take plac soon only a few days or
                        weeks away.

                        When he stepped up to the microphone, first cat out of the box, he
                        began bashing and trashing Foursquare, accusing them of setting him
                        up for failure from the very beginning and lambasting them for
                        attempting to undo what had already been done with their blessing and
                        for having the temerity to try and take away from him what was
                        rightfully his, refering to his own organization of fellowships that
                        he had built with his vision and with his own two hands he insisted
                        the tithe monies were rightfully his. Mitchell began prophecying and
                        called down the thunder in his short address calling upon God to
                        avenge him and then pronouncing a curse over all Foursquare from the
                        very roots of the denomination, predicting its utter destruction from
                        top to bottom as a failed church organization headed up by old
                        codgers that had long since fell away from God's grace, having fallen
                        away from the vision of the Church and having set themselves up as
                        rulers in a corrupt denomination that had as a whole failed to
                        continue to represent the true Church. Having failed to continue to
                        fulfill the Great Commission, they had fallen asleep in their stupor
                        of the grandeur of Foursquare history and numbed by the opiate of
                        administrative duties, they had but forgotten how to be true
                        ministers of the Gospel. Mitchell cursed the leaders of Foursquare
                        and his immediate superiors calling them a den of vipers and calling
                        down the curse upon all those in Foursquare ministry. He predicted
                        the denomination would fail, fall flat on it's face, go broke and
                        their churches would all close their doors. He predicted failure and
                        poverty, sickness and disease and even death for those he felt were
                        directly responsible for trying to hurt his ministry - all in the
                        tone of his so-called prophetic utterance tageed with "Thus saith the
                        Lord!" Then he stomped off the stage and he and his duck walking
                        inner circle of Fellowship pastors strode out the building and set
                        about separating themselves from Foursquare.

                        It's a thousand wonders someone didn't tackle Mitchell from the side
                        as he stood in the pulpit that day delivering up his curse upon all
                        things Foursquare. It's a testament to Foursquare's longsuffering
                        with Wayman Mitchell.

                        It's interesting that Foursquare has gotten along just fine without
                        Mitchell and there hasn't been as yet a realization of that curse he
                        pronounced upon them in the form of a False Prophecy born of his
                        thinly veiled disobedient rebellion to Foursquare which he has
                        attempted to pass off as his so-called vision from God to provide
                        destiny to those he disciples that plant his churches and send him
                        tithes in perpetuity securing his position as founder and leader of
                        his organization.

                        Since he left Foursquare in 1983 they have actually flourished adding
                        more to their ranks day by day, building more churches and pioneering
                        new works all over the world. Seven years after Mitchell left
                        Foursquare he suffered his first church split in the Ron Jones-Jack
                        Harris exodus that took 100 churches right away and a 100 more when
                        Mike & Larry Neville pulled their Praise Chapel fellowships from
                        association with Mitchell and away from any association with
                        Foursquare.

                        A decade later marked the second split that hit Mitchell even harder
                        with several more key individuals who had pastored in the Fellowship
                        leaving and 100's more pastors and churches pulling out with them. In
                        the meantime Foursquare has continued on doing what they have done,
                        growing all over the world and no sign of defeat or destruction in
                        sight.

                        The multi-million dollar sale of Foursquare's own radio station KFSG
                        that was instituted by Aimee Semple MacPherson herself in the 1920's
                        as a beacon of proclaiming the Gospel on the airwaves was a tremndous
                        boost finacially to Foursquare in the late 1990's. By 2003 then
                        President Risser had unwittingly invested all of that money into a
                        scam and in a moment it was gone, no where to be found. Word has it
                        that Mitchell gloated with glee at this news. Risser stepped down and
                        being found innocent of any wrong doing, Jack Hayford stepped in and
                        a new era of Foursquare has begun. In fact they have not only
                        recovered finacially from the bast investment, they have been in the
                        black several years running and to add insult to injury, a few of
                        Mitchell's former associate pastors have actually returned to
                        ministry within Foursquare's ranks!

                        Mitchell's curses? I say "Balderdash!" He's cursed Praise Chapel, who
                        continue just fine without him, with many former CFM pastors in their
                        ranks. Mitchell pronounced a curse over Hillsong, yet they continue.

                        All Mitchell's curses are is a lot of hot air accompanied by bad
                        breath of an old fart who has been dead for years but nobody has had
                        the decency to inform his body that the lights may be on but there's
                        nobody at home. He's nothing more than a zombie of his own creation.
                        He's reversed and returned curses that he's brough upon himself that
                        he is simply in the spin cycle of his own making going round and
                        round with the curses going round and round in his own life and the
                        circle of his Fellowship.

                        A word to the wise in the Fellowship: You should get while the
                        gettin's good because the Fellowship is cursed! Y'all better wake up
                        and smell the Depends... the ones Mitchell is wearing!

                        Jac

                        --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777
                        <no_reply@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > I was wondering what some of you thought about Wayman and the boys
                        > having "witchcraft powers"?
                        >
                        > Every now and then I will read a message by an ex member who says
                        that
                        > Wayman, Inc., tends to put curses on people. Most of us know that
                        they
                        > try to curse ex members with their "prayers." They say they are
                        sending
                        > curses back, but that is because they view anyone who leaves, and
                        states
                        > why they left, to be working witchcraft against Waymanland. What I
                        am
                        > asking, however, is how many of you ex members out there think that
                        they
                        > can actually exercise some kind of spiritual power against those who
                        > leave?
                        >
                        > I see Wayman O. and his religious leaders as "cursing" people by
                        > wrecking their lives with low level, dumb religion, and by gain
                        social
                        > and economic power over them. They cause people to make really bad
                        > decisions for themselves, impoverish them, and then betray them in
                        the
                        > end, causing a lot of emotional pain. People have to live with the
                        > wasted years that they spent in what they thought was this great
                        move of
                        > God, and with the poor choices they made under the influence of that
                        > religious cult.
                        >
                        > But what about the spiritual curse thing? Do any of you think that
                        > their, "oooo ahhhh I curse those people who speak against thy work
                        and
                        > thy greatness and the greatness of Waymanchrist...ooooo ahhhh,
                        babble
                        > babble babble," really does anything in terms of loosing a spiritual
                        > power against ex members?
                        >
                        > I am just curious as to what some, who maintain a Christian faith,
                        or
                        > some kind of spiritual beliefs, would think of this.
                        >
                        > Shalom
                        >
                      • kenhaining777
                        Jac said: [Mitchell had balked at their demands only weeks earlier refusing to abide by their requests and had promised to give them an answer at their next
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008
                          Jac said:

                          [Mitchell had balked at their demands only weeks earlier refusing to
                          abide by their requests and had promised to give them an answer at
                          their next Convention which was to take plac soon only a few days or
                          weeks away.]

                          We had a Foursquare conference in Prescott, Arizona, circa summer 1982.  It's been a while, so I am not sure of the exact dates.  Anyway, there was a preacher there who was from outside Foursquare, but having been made aware of the impending split, he preached a sermon on reconciliation.  The next day Lord Wayman had breakfast with myself and some other pastors.  He simply joined us at our table.  Referring to the sermon that the man preached on reconciliation, he said, "I don't know what he thinks is going to happen.  The horse is not going to mate with the frog." 

                          There were several main issues that led to Foursquare demanding that Mitch get in line, or get out.  The most pertinent issue was that Wayman O. was planting non Foursquare churches out of his church, and financing them out of his Foursquare church.  It was obvious that he was building an independent organization.  Another they were demanding was that he stop saying they were less than Christian.  And yet another crucial issue was that he would release men he planted outside the Southwest District to the area Foursquare leaders.  Mitch was unwilling to do any of these things.

                          They did not demand that he send his men to Bible school or abandon his discipleship program, but they didn't want him forbidding men to go to Bible school.  Essentially they wanted him, as a Foursquare pastor, and the Foursquare superintendent of Arizona, to stop being anti Foursquare. 

                          The last meeting took place in Glorietta, New Mexico, shortly after that conference.  He met with main leaders and pastors, and Roy Hicks, Sr. made the demands.  Howard Cortney, a main older man in Foursquare, and scholar, also got up and told Mitch he and his men were wrong to be causing this split.  Mitch told me that himself, but mocked Cortney as "snotting and crying" about the whole thing.

                          Hank Houghton told me that it was a good thing that Mitch didn't bring the fellowship leaders to that meeting with him, or they would have kicked the tables over and lit them on fire.  The hostility against Foursquare, at that point, was that high.  Mitch had been telling us for years that they were messed up, so it was easy for him to get all of us to leave when the time came.

                          Shalom



                        • Rahab
                          I rather believe in these things, mainly because I was involved in the occult before I became a Christian. When Christians do the same things the
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 1, 2008
                            I rather believe in these things, mainly because I was involved in the
                            occult before I became a Christian.

                            When "Christians" do the same things the witchdoctors do (and that is
                            where the Wonderous Wayman leaned all this crap), you are tapping into
                            the same power they utilize.

                            Now, about whether or not such curses have power is debatable. I do
                            believe that sin and walking in "darkness" allows such things to be
                            empowered in your life.

                            When a person leaves CFM, they usually do so because they see the
                            things going on there as wicked. It usually takes longer after they
                            leave for them to come to terms with the fact that they themselves are
                            just as guilty. We did the same things because that is what we were
                            taught to do, but that does not absolve us of the guilt for actually
                            doing these things, such as cursing people, shunning people and all
                            the other vile things we did when we were part of that vile organization.

                            We, in effect, walked in agreement with darkness, and that is what
                            empowers these curses. Once we repent (which means change your
                            direction of thinking) they lose the power we have given them through
                            our agreement.


                            --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777
                            <no_reply@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dennis said:
                            >
                            > [I know that's a very questionable example but I think things can happen
                            > whether we believe in them or not.]
                            >
                            > One of the aspects of this that I am trying to get at is do ex members
                            > of the fellowship think that Satan gets involved when misguided or fake
                            > Christians pray curses on others?
                            >
                            > I consider Satan pure mythology. So, I wonder about psychological or
                            > psychic effects of projected hatred and such. However, I have heard and
                            > read things said by ex members of Waymanland that they believe those
                            > prayers are demonic. I have even heard and read the term "Pentecostal
                            > witchcraft."
                            >
                            > When I was still in Wayman's World, I preached for a pastor who boasted
                            > that he had been personally instructed by Lord Wayman himself on how to
                            > curse ex members. This pastor had gone through a major church split in
                            > the aftermath of the 1990 exodus. He gleefully told me how he had
                            > cursed this couple who left the church, and this couple then had a
                            > boating accident that set them back $100,000. His reason for cursing
                            > their resources was that they had left his church and had thus withdrawn
                            > their considerable tithes and offerings, as they were very well off
                            > financially. He considered that they had stolen that money out of his
                            > church and from God. My question would be how people view the accident.
                            > Coincidence, psychological conditioning, psychic power, or Satan?
                            >
                            > I am curious as to whether or not ex members think that Satan gets
                            > involved in the prayers of current fellowship members who are cursing
                            > them. The fellowship believes that Satan gets involved in ex members
                            > "speaking against" what they consider to be the kingdom of God. Again,
                            > many times with different sects, each accuses the other of being agents
                            > of Satan, while lifting themselves up as the true people of God.
                            >
                            > Shalom
                            >
                          • kenhaining777
                            Perry said: [So looking at the PH, I think that, yes, they do have witchcraft powers. Not that I believe they do from my perspective. But from their
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 2, 2008
                              Perry said:

                              [So looking at the PH, I think that, yes, they do have witchcraft
                              powers. Not that I believe they do from my perspective. But from their
                              perspective, they believe in all that. I remember being taught that
                              stuff myself and believing it. So do they have powers of witchcraft
                              over people like myself, George, Dennis and Nancy? No. We don't
                              ascribe to that belief system. But if some of us cast our minds back
                              to when we just left, then yes, we were heavily influenced by the
                              thoughts of the people we left behind.]

                              As far as "witchcraft" being a psychological condition of the mind that results from subscribing to low level, exploitive, dumb donkey religion, I understand that.  And it is real.  Also the fallout of all the bad decisions that we made while we were in Waymanland, such as forsaking education or getting married in the "will of God," have residual effects.  Suppose, Perry, you had pursued your education some years ago as you naturally would have, had you not been a part of Waymanland? 

                              Wayman O., Inc., did a number on my life.  Time would fail me to go over the massive destructive influence that degenerate religion had on me.  However, I don't call that "witchcraft," but the way I have heard and read it referred to is as invoking Satanic spiritual power, i.e., the Dark Side of the Force.  In other words, Vader didn't just influence people to make really bad decisions, he choked them with spiritual power. 

                              Is there any kind of psychic force that could be associated with cursing someone?  I don't think so.  Can we really feel hate, or be affected by someone else's ill will towards us, even if we are unaware of it?  I don't think so, but I think those who psychic might pick up the "vibes" and be disturbed by it.  Can someone be given "bad luck" by the prayers of hateful people?  I suppose that is one of the real questions.  Can someone get sick as a result of the venomous prayers of hate filled fanatics?  Can they suffer financial loss?  Can their kids be cursed?

                              Remember, this stuff is not totally unBiblical.  Noah curses Ham's son, in response to what Ham had done to him.  The pastor who told me that he received personal instruction from Waymanchrist on how to curse the people who were leaving his church said Lord Wayman instructed him on cursing their health, their finances, and their children.  That is why he was so gleeful about that one couple having the boating accident that set them back $100,000.  He was thoroughly convinced that this accident was the result of his prayers. 

                              Lord Wayman and his fellowship erroneously teach that they are returning curses.  As I said, they consider anyone who leaves and criticizes them, and points out their errors and abuse to be cursing them.  So, in the minds of fellowship clones it is perfectly all right to spew out vicious curses towards those who have dared to leave "the will of God" in the prayer room.  Having accepted the twisted teachings of Waymanchrist, they feel no restriction in cursing people, their health, their finances, their marriage, and their children. 

                              So, I guess what I am asking is the question, is there anyone out there who thinks that these curses that they yell out in the prayer room have any spiritual or metaphysical power behind them?  Jac, Dennis, Rahab, and Nancy are those who believe in Jesus, the Bible, and all that, and we have heard from them to a degree.  But point blank, do these curses have any Satanic spiritual power behind them, and if they do, how much?

                              Shalom



                            • nancyinsanantone
                              But point blank, do these curses have any Satanic spiritual power behind them, and if they do, how much? I don t think so. They may be satanically inspired to
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008

                                But point blank, do these curses have any Satanic spiritual power behind them, and if they do, how much?

                                I don't think so.  They may be satanically inspired to "send these curses", but I don't believe there is any power behind them in the least.  Of course if a person  believes they can be cursed, then every bad thing that happens to them they may think it is a curse,  when in reality it is just a season of life, which we all have, good seasons, and bad. That's my opinion.  Those people had enough power over my life when I was in there,  I'll be damned if they will have power over me now.  Thats my other 2 cents on the matter...

                                Shalom and stuff,

                                Nancy

                                --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Perry said:
                                >
                                > [So looking at the PH, I think that, yes, they do have witchcraft
                                > powers. Not that I believe they do from my perspective. But from their
                                > perspective, they believe in all that. I remember being taught that
                                > stuff myself and believing it. So do they have powers of witchcraft
                                > over people like myself, George, Dennis and Nancy? No. We don't
                                > ascribe to that belief system. But if some of us cast our minds back
                                > to when we just left, then yes, we were heavily influenced by the
                                > thoughts of the people we left behind.]
                                >
                                > As far as "witchcraft" being a psychological condition of the mind that
                                > results from subscribing to low level, exploitive, dumb donkey religion,
                                > I understand that. And it is real. Also the fallout of all the bad
                                > decisions that we made while we were in Waymanland, such as forsaking
                                > education or getting married in the "will of God," have residual
                                > effects. Suppose, Perry, you had pursued your education some years ago
                                > as you naturally would have, had you not been a part of Waymanland?
                                >
                                > Wayman O., Inc., did a number on my life. Time would fail me to go over
                                > the massive destructive influence that degenerate religion had on me.
                                > However, I don't call that "witchcraft," but the way I have heard and
                                > read it referred to is as invoking Satanic spiritual power, i.e., the
                                > Dark Side of the Force. In other words, Vader didn't just influence
                                > people to make really bad decisions, he choked them with spiritual
                                > power.
                                >
                                > Is there any kind of psychic force that could be associated with cursing
                                > someone? I don't think so. Can we really feel hate, or be affected by
                                > someone else's ill will towards us, even if we are unaware of it? I
                                > don't think so, but I think those who psychic might pick up the "vibes"
                                > and be disturbed by it. Can someone be given "bad luck" by the prayers
                                > of hateful people? I suppose that is one of the real questions. Can
                                > someone get sick as a result of the venomous prayers of hate filled
                                > fanatics? Can they suffer financial loss? Can their kids be cursed?
                                >
                                > Remember, this stuff is not totally unBiblical. Noah curses Ham's son,
                                > in response to what Ham had done to him. The pastor who told me that he
                                > received personal instruction from Waymanchrist on how to curse the
                                > people who were leaving his church said Lord Wayman instructed him on
                                > cursing their health, their finances, and their children. That is why
                                > he was so gleeful about that one couple having the boating accident that
                                > set them back $100,000. He was thoroughly convinced that this accident
                                > was the result of his prayers.
                                >
                                > Lord Wayman and his fellowship erroneously teach that they are returning
                                > curses. As I said, they consider anyone who leaves and criticizes them,
                                > and points out their errors and abuse to be cursing them. So, in the
                                > minds of fellowship clones it is perfectly all right to spew out vicious
                                > curses towards those who have dared to leave "the will of God" in the
                                > prayer room. Having accepted the twisted teachings of Waymanchrist,
                                > they feel no restriction in cursing people, their health, their
                                > finances, their marriage, and their children.
                                >
                                > So, I guess what I am asking is the question, is there anyone out there
                                > who thinks that these curses that they yell out in the prayer room have
                                > any spiritual or metaphysical power behind them? Jac, Dennis, Rahab,
                                > and Nancy are those who believe in Jesus, the Bible, and all that, and
                                > we have heard from them to a degree. But point blank, do these curses
                                > have any Satanic spiritual power behind them, and if they do, how much?
                                >
                                > Shalom
                                >

                              • kenhaining777
                                [I don t think so. They may be satanically inspired to send these curses , but I don t believe there is any power behind them in the least. Of course if a
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 4, 2008

                                  [I don't think so.  They may be satanically inspired to "send these curses", but I don't believe there is any power behind them in the least.  Of course if a person  believes they can be cursed, then every bad thing that happens to them they may think it is a curse,  when in reality it is just a season of life, which we all have, good seasons, and bad. That's my opinion.  Those people had enough power over my life when I was in there,  I'll be damned if they will have power over me now.  Thats my other 2 cents on the matter...

                                  Shalom and stuff,

                                  Nancy]

                                  Personally, I think that teaching the members of the church to curse ex members is a method of solidifying shunning.  If Old Man Mitch can get you cursing people who left the church, then it is not likely that you will be seeking to hang out with them any time soon.

                                  Cursing those who left, and trying to disguise it as "returning curses," is a manifestation of hatred and religious bigotry.  It is a total contradiction of what Jesus taught about blessing those who curse you.  It is amazing how we could ignore such glaring contradictions of what the Bible teaches and what Waymanchrist teaches.  It fascinates my one Christian friend, who is also Jewish, when I describe this stuff to her.  They literally taught us to ignore the teachings of Jesus Himself.

                                  The power of Christian cult religion to cloud the mind is something to behold.

                                  Shalom





                                • nancyinsanantone
                                  It is a total contradiction of what Jesus taught about blessing those who curse you. When I wrote that post yesterday, originally I mentioned exactly what you
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008

                                    It is a total contradiction of what Jesus taught about blessing those who curse you.

                                    When I wrote that post yesterday, originally I mentioned exactly what you said, but I ended up taking it out because it seems to imply that Jesus believed that people can curse you, and I don't believe it, so I thought I myself may be contradicting Jesus?!!  

                                    Don't want to do that.

                                    But what do you think Jesus is talking about when he says to bless those that curse you?

                                    Certainly Jesus couldn't have been referring to some freaking prayer asking God to make someone's life miserable, which is really just witchcraft, or voodoo.??!

                                    One thing for sure, I have more questions than I do answers...

                                    Shalom, Nancy

                                    --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [I don't think so. They may be satanically inspired to "send these
                                    > curses", but I don't believe there is any power behind them in the
                                    > least. Of course if a person believes they can be cursed, then every
                                    > bad thing that happens to them they may think it is a curse, when in
                                    > reality it is just a season of life, which we all have, good seasons,
                                    > and bad. That's my opinion. Those people had enough power over my life
                                    > when I was in there, I'll be damned if they will have power over me
                                    > now. Thats my other 2 cents on the matter...
                                    >
                                    > Shalom and stuff,
                                    > Nancy]
                                    >
                                    > Personally, I think that teaching the members of the church to curse ex
                                    > members is a method of solidifying shunning. If Old Man Mitch can get
                                    > you cursing people who left the church, then it is not likely that you
                                    > will be seeking to hang out with them any time soon.
                                    >
                                    > Cursing those who left, and trying to disguise it as "returning
                                    > curses," is a manifestation of hatred and religious bigotry. It is a
                                    > total contradiction of what Jesus taught about blessing those who curse
                                    > you. It is amazing how we could ignore such glaring contradictions of
                                    > what the Bible teaches and what Waymanchrist teaches. It fascinates my
                                    > one Christian friend, who is also Jewish, when I describe this stuff to
                                    > her. They literally taught us to ignore the teachings of Jesus Himself.
                                    >
                                    > The power of Christian cult religion to cloud the mind is something to
                                    > behold.
                                    >
                                    > Shalom
                                    >

                                  • kenhaining777
                                    Nancy said: [When I wrote that post yesterday, originally I mentioned exactly what you said, but I ended up taking it out because it seems to imply that Jesus
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008


                                      Nancy said:

                                      [When I wrote that post yesterday, originally I mentioned exactly what you said, but I ended up taking it out because it seems to imply that Jesus believed that people can curse you, and I don't believe it, so I thought I myself may be contradicting Jesus?!!]

                                      I think that Jesus was referring to people speaking evil of you, etc.  Not necessarily referring to people doing the voodoo prayer thing.  In any event, the fellowship responds to any criticism as being from the Devil, and they "return" the curse in their prayers, asking God to harm you.

                                      Shalom

                                       

                                        

                                    • Denis Dearborn
                                      Ken,     One thing I can honestly say I know happened for a fact was a situation that involved my friend Tony. Tony was the one who lead me to Christ so to
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008
                                        Ken,
                                         
                                          One thing I can honestly say I know happened for a fact was a situation that involved my friend Tony. Tony was the one who lead me to Christ so to speak back when I was a kid. He was older than all of us around 15/16 at the time. After I had enlisted and went off to the USMC I had found out that Tony had come out of the closet. Talk about a shock from someone I knew half my life who was strait the whole time but something happened while I was gone that i didn't learn until about 3 years ago. My friend Ron who also grew up with us had told me Kieth called Tony out of a service one night and said "I don't know why God wants me to say this but He is telling me that your at a crossroad right now and your about to make a decision that will determine your walk. The Lord also said that if you pick this particular road that the Lord would allow you to be turned over to the spirit of the ages." After asking Ron what he meant Ron told me that it was homosexuality. Ron had talked with Tony about what happened 6 months after Tony had left the church and Tony let it out of the bag. From what I was told Tony knew exactly what Kieth was talking about that night and it scared him because no one knew about the decision he was going to make. Thant decision was to try out a homosexual life style even though the guy was strait and even he explained he never liked men in that way his entire life. HE was offered a chance apparently at testing the waters and for whatever reason he decided to try it and now he has that lisp in his speech, uses women's products, acts like a fem and I cant believe what he has turned into. A die hard football fan, guy into hard core sports, beautiful girlfriends and he decided something that the Lord warned him would change his life if he decided to choose that road. I know that's not praying a curse on someone but this example is a real one to someone I personally know and grew up with.

                                        --- On Tue, 8/5/08, kenhaining777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                        From: kenhaining777 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Subject: [Escape_from_the_Fellowship] Re: Do Wayman and the Boys Have "Witchcraft Powers"?
                                        To: Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 10:53 AM


                                        Nancy said:
                                        [When I wrote that post yesterday, originally I mentioned exactly what you said, but I ended up taking it out because it seems to imply that Jesus believed that people can curse you, and I don't believe it, so I thought I myself may be contradicting Jesus?!!]
                                        I think that Jesus was referring to people speaking evil of you, etc.  Not necessarily referring to people doing the voodoo prayer thing.  In any event, the fellowship responds to any criticism as being from the Devil, and they "return" the curse in their prayers, asking God to harm you.
                                        Shalom
                                         
                                          

                                      • kenhaining777
                                        Dennis said: [From what I was told Tony knew exactly what Kieth was talking about that night and it scared him because no one knew about the decision he was
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 5, 2008
                                          Dennis said:

                                          [From what I was told Tony knew exactly what Kieth was talking about that night and it scared him because no one knew about the decision he was going to make. Thant decision was to try out a homosexual life style even though the guy was strait and even he explained he never liked men in that way his entire life.]

                                          Men who can get women, but who decide to "try" homosexuality, even though they say they were never attracted to men, usually have something that happened to them when they were kids.  Some can't even remember it because they were so young, and because their mind blocked it out.  These are most often the types that want to be women, or play the woman's part with a man. 

                                          How much is choice?  I don't know.  At what point is someone overwhelmed with desire and that is compounded by being in contact with willing partners?  If a man had contact with willing females, and willing males, and he went for the males, how much of that is just a choice?  As I said, I don't know. 

                                          Another facet of this is the men who like to make other men into women.  And then the question comes up, where does perversion begin?  We have the word perversion in our language, so it has to apply to some situations.  What is natural, and what is unnatural?

                                          Interesting that so many ancient civilizations utterly condemned homosexuality.  Why?  It wasn't just the Hebrews. 

                                          Scientifically speaking, something would have to be the cause of homosexuality.  Probably a combination of genetics, reinforcement history, and choice.  Hard to sort out.  Why would a man prefer to have sex with another man, when a lovely woman is available?  Again, no easy answers.

                                          Shalom




                                        • nancyinsanantone
                                          Probably a combination of genetics, reinforcement history, and choice It s one of those mysteries we probably won t ever totally understand. I know that I
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 6, 2008

                                            "Probably a combination of genetics, reinforcement history, and choice"

                                            It's one of those mysteries we probably won't ever totally understand. 

                                             I know that I have seen young boys that are "sweet"..ie. feminine in their mannerisms, etc.  I believe those are the ones that really have no choice, they are pre-disposed genetically. 

                                             I have 2 gay cousins. One of them is extremely light in the loafers, and has always been that way since he was a young child. 

                                            The other one is buff and manly, and I would've never suspected it, but he outed himself to me at a family reunion. I just gave him a hug and said, "well, I still love you"....

                                            One thing for sure, it's always been around, and it's not going away.

                                            Another thing, I think a lot of women or girls "choose it" for a time, because it has become a sort of fad.  Think Lindsay Lohan. Anne Heche.  I work in education, and most of our women coaches are lesbians, but they are not blatant about it.  Those things need to stay in the closet.  Gay Pride Parades?  Who cares? Are we to have Straight Pride parades too?  Sexual preferences should be PRIVATE.

                                            Okay, officially off the soap box.

                                            Peace.

                                             


                                            --- In Escape_from_the_Fellowship@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777 <no_reply@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dennis said:
                                            >
                                            > [From what I was told Tony knew exactly what Kieth was talking about
                                            > that night and it scared him because no one knew about the decision he
                                            > was going to make. Thant decision was to try out a homosexual life style
                                            > even though the guy was strait and even he explained he never liked men
                                            > in that way his entire life.]
                                            >
                                            > Men who can get women, but who decide to "try" homosexuality, even
                                            > though they say they were never attracted to men, usually have something
                                            > that happened to them when they were kids. Some can't even remember it
                                            > because they were so young, and because their mind blocked it out.
                                            > These are most often the types that want to be women, or play the
                                            > woman's part with a man.
                                            >
                                            > How much is choice? I don't know. At what point is someone overwhelmed
                                            > with desire and that is compounded by being in contact with willing
                                            > partners? If a man had contact with willing females, and willing males,
                                            > and he went for the males, how much of that is just a choice? As I
                                            > said, I don't know.
                                            >
                                            > Another facet of this is the men who like to make other men into women.
                                            > And then the question comes up, where does perversion begin? We have
                                            > the word perversion in our language, so it has to apply to some
                                            > situations. What is natural, and what is unnatural?
                                            >
                                            > Interesting that so many ancient civilizations utterly condemned
                                            > homosexuality. Why? It wasn't just the Hebrews.
                                            >
                                            > Scientifically speaking, something would have to be the cause of
                                            > homosexuality. Probably a combination of genetics, reinforcement
                                            > history, and choice. Hard to sort out. Why would a man prefer to have
                                            > sex with another man, when a lovely woman is available? Again, no easy
                                            > answers.
                                            >
                                            > Shalom
                                            >

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