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Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Venison / venyson

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  • Margaret Rochester
    Aaaah.  One of the joys and frustrations of period cooking!   The recipe I have used is from Curye on Inglish.  Gourdes in Potage. Take young Gowrdes; pare
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 24, 2008
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      Aaaah.  One of the joys and frustrations of period cooking!
       
      The recipe I have used is from Curye on Inglish.  Gourdes in Potage. Take young Gowrdes; pare hem and kerue hem on pecys. Cast hem in gode broth, and do þerto a gode pertye of oynouns mynced. Take pork soden; grynde it and alye it þerwith and wiþ yolkes of ayren. Do þerto safroun and salt, and messe it forth with powdour douce.
      Obviously, there are no quantities for us to start with.  I have interpreted the pork to be a flavoring agent for two reasons.  It is listed fourth in the recipe.  My brain and my logic says the farther down the list, the less and/or less important the ingredient.  The other reason I think of it as merely a flavoring agent is that it specifically tells you to get a bunch of onions (gode pertye of oynons), but does not give the same directions for the pork.
       
      I don't know that I am interpreting it correctly.  I don't know that this is the only such recipe.  I would very much like to hear how others interpret this or other recipes and why you come up with your interpretations.
       
      Margaret

       9/24/08, Jeffrey Keith <arinbjornx@...> wrote:
      From: Jeffrey Keith <arinbjornx@...>
      Subject: Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Venison / venyson
      To: Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 1:53 PM

      Hailsa,
       
      I've done the pork and gourd recipe,and the pork is definitelya substantial part of the recipe. However, gourds not being terribly flavorful, modern interpretations often use some type of winter squash.
       
      Wassail
       
      Arinbyorn Dychter

      --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Jason goodrich <jbgood789@aol. com> wrote:
      From: Jason goodrich <jbgood789@aol. com>
      Subject: Re: [Endewearde_ cooks] Venison / venyson
      To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 12:10 PM



      No questions... I think being wildly cixelsyd helps in reading old english.... 8)

      On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 9:32 AM, Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      Part of the problem is that meat and veggie soup/stew does not seem to be a particularly medieval combo.  We have recipes for meat, veggie, and I think meat and fruit, but meat and veg not so much.  There is a gourd and pork recipe, but my impression is that the pork is more of a flavoring agent rather than a substantial element of the dish.
       
      There is a train of thought that they must have done the veg and meat combo, but just didn't write it down.  Personally, I'm not of that mindset.  However, you would not be alone if you want to make such a stew.
       
      Do you have any questions about the ingredients in the venison dish you found?
       
      Margaret

      --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Jason <jbgood789@aol. com> wrote:
      From: Jason <jbgood789@aol. com>
      Subject: [Endewearde_ cooks] Venison / venyson
      To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 9:07 AM


      Greetings fellow cooks...

      Jason the inquisitive here.... always asking questions... stirring
      the pot.. as it were.. LOL bad cooking pun.

      My 'question de jour' is bout venison.

      I have 4 lbs of venison stew meet (deer - apparently venyson was any
      furry woodland creature caught in a hunt) and I intend to throw a
      stew together for my house on the Saturday night of the endewearde
      hunt.

      My only find on godecookery. com was venyson and broth... zero
      veggies... whilst this would make a lovely base I might like
      to 'beef it up' a bit... LOL I'm full of 'em....

      Godecookery. com reads:

      "Take Rybbys of Venysoun, and wasshe hem clene in fayre water, an
      strayne the same water thorw a straynoure in-to a potte, an caste
      ther-to Venysoun, also Percely, Sawge, powder Pepyr, Clowys, Maces,
      Vynegre, and a lytyl Red wyne caste there-to; an thanne latte it
      boyle tyl it be y-now, & serue forth."

      Does anyone have any suggestions or maybe a better recipe?






    • Leofwyn of Wytelseie
      The interesting thought regarding medieval recipes is that there are probably thousands of recipes that weren t written down. Who is to say that some cook,
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 25, 2008
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        The interesting thought regarding medieval recipes is that there are probably thousands of recipes that weren't written down. Who is to say that some cook, somewhere didnt add some veggies to their stew.

        With this thinking I have made several "what could be medieval" foods. I just try to remember that some veggies weren't around Europe in the Middle Ages. The potato for example, although a very staple of our own recipes in modern times, are thought not to have been used during medieval times.

        So if faced with your situation Jason. I would do the following: do the recipe as it is written or at least as close to it as you dare. And then I would add things to it for flavor, carrots or parsnips are very medieval - well at least I have been told that purple carrots are medieval. Celery, onions, garlic, butter, even turnip....it would make your venison stew much more substantial. And if I tasted my creation and decided that it just wasn't what I would serve my beloved friends cause it tasted like...well I will let you put in your own explitive... then I, would add things to it that are not medieval at all just to make sure that it wasn't a waste of my 4 lbs of venison, beef buillion, worchester, etc.   I have read somewhere - I do this alot, read something, remember the details, but can't remember where it was I read it - but I have read somewhere that there would be a pot sitting next to the fire all day, and throughout the day things would be added to the pot - meat, vegetables, herbs, etc and end up being the pottage at the end of the day - very much like a stew that we would make today.

        Or perhaps the venison stew recipe that you share with us is meant to be venison as a main dish - meat own its own - you know?  And meant to be served with veggies and bread on the side.

        just some thoughts
        Leo
        aka Leofwyn of Wytleseie


      • Lady Aneleda Falconbridge
        I made this dish (from the Cookery recipe) and found it to be, unlike most medieval stews, quite bland. I may have been, back then, too light handed with
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 25, 2008
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          I made this dish (from the Cookery recipe) and found it to be, unlike
          most medieval stews, quite bland. I may have been, back then, too
          light handed with spice use.

          (Margaret may remember it from my Christmas feast waaaay back - but
          like I said, it was bland.)

          I also make the gourdes in pottage recipe relatively often using the
          redaction in To The King's Taste. I agree with Margaret that the
          intent is for the pork to flavor rather than be "meaty." Especailly
          since the version I use suggests to brown the meat and remove. (I use
          twice the recommended pork however, to make it meaty. And I use the
          recipe as a loose set of recommendations, so I spice to my own taste.)

          I use winter squash of some sort (which I cook and puree or mash
          before adding) or zucchini as the gourdes bit. I just made a pot of
          each for the recent bardic - Gwillem ate 4 bowls of it, Vey had three.
          And Gwillem, who was working at our house, ate a bowl for lunch two
          additional days running. ;-)

          ANYWAY > Venison.

          I would try a meat pie using the venyson. You should be able
          tosubstitute it for beef if you add more fat someplace (butter helps)
          since it's usually too lean. You can use the traditional spices for
          mince-meat (which are pretty period!)

          I bet this on: http://www.godecookery.com/mtrans/mtrans39.htm would
          work pretty well.


          I made these "Tourtes parmeriennes"
          http://www.godecookery.com/goderec/grec69.htm

          and I think that they would work well with venyson too.

          The Pottage of Venison http://www.godecookery.com/engrec/engrec106.html
          has veggies - beets even! Sounds, after a brief read, kind of like

          Finally, the romans made hamburgers with ground meat. No reason why
          you couldn't make venison patties with spices and serve with a nice,
          veggie laden pottage.

          =)

          Aneleda


          (excellent modern use - "loaf" - my first meal cooked for my husband
          was actually moose loaf. lol)
        • Leofwyn
          ... wrote: (I use twice the recommended pork however, to make it meaty. And I use the recipe as a loose set of recommendations, so I spice to my
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 25, 2008
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            --- In Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com, "Lady Aneleda Falconbridge"
            <aneleda@...> wrote:
            (I use twice the recommended pork however, to make it meaty. And I
            use the recipe as a loose set of recommendations, so I spice to my own
            taste.)
            So for the pirate in all of us - and for those who are Pirates of the
            Caribbean addicts - you use the recipe like the pirates in the movie
            used The Code - more like guidelines, eh?

            :)

            Leo
          • Leofwyn
            ... And I made a pottage of gourdes with pumpkin and pork (light on the pork) for the Hunt last year - for which, I remember, Gwillim coming back for seconds
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 25, 2008
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              --- In Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com, "Lady Aneleda Falconbridge"
              <aneleda@...> wrote:

              > I use winter squash of some sort (which I cook and puree or mash
              > before adding) or zucchini as the gourdes bit. I just made a pot of
              > each for the recent bardic - Gwillem ate 4 bowls of it, Vey had three.
              > And Gwillem, who was working at our house, ate a bowl for lunch two
              > additional days running. ;-)
              >

              And I made a pottage of gourdes with pumpkin and pork (light on the
              pork) for the Hunt last year - for which, I remember, Gwillim coming
              back for "seconds" maybe even "thirds"! The man really likes his
              gourdes of pottage. (Although, in his defense, his bowl is rather
              small... :0) )
              Leo
            • Jason
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 1, 2008
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                <"I have read somewhere - I do this alot, read something, remember
                the details, but can't remember where it was I read it - but I have
                read somewhere that there would be a pot sitting next to the fire
                all day, and throughout the day things would be added to the pot -
                meat, vegetables, herbs, etc and end up being the pottage at the end
                of the day - very much like a stew that we would make today.">

                Leo, I believe what you were referring to was Peas Porridge. A base
                of pea soup... with what ever anyone could get their hands on was
                added... eaten hot... allowed to sit over night.. eaten in the a.m.
                Just eaten... though I would conjecture that it was never allowed to
                get 9 days old... I'm sure it was either consumer by then or slopped
                to the pigs...

                "Peas porridge hot, Peas porridge cold, Peas porridge in the pot
                Nine days old. Some like it hot, Some like it cold, Some like it in
                the pot Nine days old"


                --- In Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com, Leofwyn of Wytelseie
                <elamache@...> wrote:
                >
                > The interesting thought regarding medieval recipes is that there
                are probably thousands of recipes that weren't written down. Who is
                to say that some cook, somewhere didnt add some veggies to their
                stew.
                >
                > With this thinking I have made several "what could be medieval"
                foods. I just try to remember that some veggies weren't around
                Europe in the Middle Ages. The potato for example, although a very
                staple of our own recipes in modern times, are thought not to have
                been used during medieval times.
                >
                > So if faced with your situation Jason. I would do the following:
                do the recipe as it is written or at least as close to it as you
                dare. And then I would add things to it for flavor, carrots or
                parsnips are very medieval - well at least I have been told that
                purple carrots are medieval. Celery, onions, garlic, butter, even
                turnip....it would make your venison stew much more substantial. And
                if I tasted my creation and decided that it just wasn't what I would
                serve my beloved friends cause it tasted like...well I will let you
                put in your own explitive... then I, would add things to it that are
                not medieval at all just to make sure that it wasn't a waste of my 4
                lbs of venison, beef buillion, worchester, etc.   I have read
                somewhere - I do this alot, read something, remember the details,
                but can't remember where it was I read it - but I have read
                somewhere that there would be a pot sitting next to the fire all
                day, and throughout the day things would be
                > added to the pot - meat, vegetables, herbs, etc and end up being
                the pottage at the end of the day - very much like a stew that we
                would make today.
                >
                > Or perhaps the venison stew recipe that you share with us is meant
                to be venison as a main dish - meat own its own - you know?  And
                meant to be served with veggies and bread on the side.
                >
                > just some thoughts
                > Leo
                > aka Leofwyn of Wytleseie
                >
              • Leofwyn
                nope don t think so, cause I love pea soup, and if it were referring to that I would remember. ;) (and there is a funny story about pea soup in my history that
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 1, 2008
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                  nope don't think so, cause I love pea soup, and if it were referring
                  to that I would remember. ;) (and there is a funny story about pea
                  soup in my history that I will have to tell you sometime)

                  But much like the old Peas porridge in the rhyme, it was kept next to
                  the fire all day, and simmered.....can you imagine the lovely smells
                  that permeated the home?

                  I actually think it was something that I was reading on an anglo-saxon
                  history website or viking website. Cause I do that a significant
                  amount of time too.


                  Leo

                  --- In Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com, "Jason" <jbgood789@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > <"I have read somewhere - I do this alot, read something, remember
                  > the details, but can't remember where it was I read it - but I have
                  > read somewhere that there would be a pot sitting next to the fire
                  > all day, and throughout the day things would be added to the pot -
                  > meat, vegetables, herbs, etc and end up being the pottage at the end
                  > of the day - very much like a stew that we would make today.">
                  >
                  > Leo, I believe what you were referring to was Peas Porridge. A base
                  > of pea soup... with what ever anyone could get their hands on was
                  > added... eaten hot... allowed to sit over night.. eaten in the a.m.
                  > Just eaten... though I would conjecture that it was never allowed to
                  > get 9 days old... I'm sure it was either consumer by then or slopped
                  > to the pigs...
                  >
                  > "Peas porridge hot, Peas porridge cold, Peas porridge in the pot
                  > Nine days old. Some like it hot, Some like it cold, Some like it in
                  > the pot Nine days old"
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com, Leofwyn of Wytelseie
                  > <elamache@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The interesting thought regarding medieval recipes is that there
                  > are probably thousands of recipes that weren't written down. Who is
                  > to say that some cook, somewhere didnt add some veggies to their
                  > stew.
                  > >
                  > > With this thinking I have made several "what could be medieval"
                  > foods. I just try to remember that some veggies weren't around
                  > Europe in the Middle Ages. The potato for example, although a very
                  > staple of our own recipes in modern times, are thought not to have
                  > been used during medieval times.
                  > >
                  > > So if faced with your situation Jason. I would do the following:
                  > do the recipe as it is written or at least as close to it as you
                  > dare. And then I would add things to it for flavor, carrots or
                  > parsnips are very medieval - well at least I have been told that
                  > purple carrots are medieval. Celery, onions, garlic, butter, even
                  > turnip....it would make your venison stew much more substantial. And
                  > if I tasted my creation and decided that it just wasn't what I would
                  > serve my beloved friends cause it tasted like...well I will let you
                  > put in your own explitive... then I, would add things to it that are
                  > not medieval at all just to make sure that it wasn't a waste of my 4
                  > lbs of venison, beef buillion, worchester, etc.   I have read
                  > somewhere - I do this alot, read something, remember the details,
                  > but can't remember where it was I read it - but I have read
                  > somewhere that there would be a pot sitting next to the fire all
                  > day, and throughout the day things would be
                  > > added to the pot - meat, vegetables, herbs, etc and end up being
                  > the pottage at the end of the day - very much like a stew that we
                  > would make today.
                  > >
                  > > Or perhaps the venison stew recipe that you share with us is meant
                  > to be venison as a main dish - meat own its own - you know?  And
                  > meant to be served with veggies and bread on the side.
                  > >
                  > > just some thoughts
                  > > Leo
                  > > aka Leofwyn of Wytleseie
                  > >
                  >
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