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Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Re:Demo display?

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  • Margaret Rochester
    Yes, please! ... From: kalamarre@roadrunner.com Subject: Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Re:Demo display? To:
    Message 1 of 13 , Sep 5, 2008
      Yes, please!

      --- On Fri, 9/5/08, kalamarre@... <kalamarre@...> wrote:
      From: kalamarre@... <kalamarre@...>
      Subject: Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Re:Demo display?
      To: Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:46 AM

      Margaret,

      If you wish, I can post the question to the Melibs list and see what the
      copyright gurus have to say (or to the SCA librarians for that matter).

      Elena

      Original Message:
      ------------ -----
      From: Margaret Rochester kenduskeagstream@ yahoo.com
      Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 08:43:41 -0700 (PDT)
      To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?

      I can do my own redacting (modern recipe) however I'd like to double check
      about giving out the original.  The original, I'm sure, outdates copywrite
      issues.  However, I get the original from a book which is currently under
      copywrite.  How does that work out?
       
      Margaret

      --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com> wrote:

      From: Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com>
      Subject: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?
      To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
      Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:32 AM

      Also, you can contribute to our illustrious demo by printing out a favorite
      medieval recipe - lots of copies to pass out too? with references too?

      Just a thought!

      Leo
      aka Leofwyn of Wytleseie

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    • L T
      Well.. trivia I learned from the MLIS degree was that the ingredients in a recipe are not subject to copyright - the written instructions (within reason) and
      Message 2 of 13 , Sep 5, 2008
        Well.. trivia I learned from the MLIS degree was that the ingredients in a recipe are not subject to copyright - the written instructions (within reason) and fanciful descriptions of the food item are what is subject to copyright.
         
        The easiest thing to do is to take the basic ingredients, ignore the pretty formatting of the publication it came in and write your own introduction and instruction steps. Then cite the source(s) as inspiration and don't worry about it. If you made the writeup uniquely your own interpretation of the recipe then it should be ok.
         
        The only other thing to dodge is the social faux pas of not acknowledging the source by not giving them credit in your interpretation. The person who already put time into doing the research that made it easy for you to try that recipe appreciates getting credit as a source. The historic cooking community isn't that large a group and that would help you keep within most social graces.
         
        Making your own graphics is just plain easier if you want pictures (or use well known woodcut images). I have a couple of cooking related images from scrolls (and I think woodcuts)  I've been working with if you need a graphic or two. I did my own "tracing" and slightly modified the designs (a la Dover publications approach).
         
        A fancy font for a title and some nice text goes a long way for handouts too.
         
        I'd like to take some pictures of  the table setting at the demo and we could put up the recipes & menu for that table as a follow up someplace on the shire website. Makes a nice A+S thing for Mira to report.
         
        Bryn
         
         
        --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@...> wrote:
        From: Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@...>
        Subject: Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Re:Demo display?
        To: Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:43 AM

        I can do my own redacting (modern recipe) however I'd like to double check about giving out the original.  The original, I'm sure, outdates copywrite issues.  However, I get the original from a book which is currently under copywrite.  How does that work out?
         
        Margaret

        --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com> wrote:
        From: Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com>
        Subject: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?
        To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
        Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:32 AM

        Also, you can contribute to our illustrious demo by printing out a favorite medieval recipe - lots of copies to pass out too? with references too?

        Just a thought!
        Leo
        aka Leofwyn of Wytleseie




      • Margaret Rochester
        Creating and writing up the modern recipe is the easy part for me.  My biggest question hinges on the fact that I found perboile oynoun & erbis & presse ...
        Message 3 of 13 , Sep 5, 2008
          Creating and writing up the modern recipe is the easy part for me.  My biggest question hinges on the fact that I found "perboile oynoun & erbis & presse ..." in a book.  Those original words, I'm sure are no longer under copywrite. However, I found them in a book which is under copywrite.  And I'm sure someone has the copywrite on the work to translate the original calligraphy into typed work.  I'd like to not only make my own recipe, but also include the original I'm basing it on.  Can I put out that original without violating copywrite?
           
          Margaret

          --- On Fri, 9/5/08, L T <ladybrynmillar@...> wrote:
          From: L T <ladybrynmillar@...>
          Subject: Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Re:Demo display?
          To: Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:13 PM

          Well.. trivia I learned from the MLIS degree was that the ingredients in a recipe are not subject to copyright - the written instructions (within reason) and fanciful descriptions of the food item are what is subject to copyright.
           
          The easiest thing to do is to take the basic ingredients, ignore the pretty formatting of the publication it came in and write your own introduction and instruction steps. Then cite the source(s) as inspiration and don't worry about it. If you made the writeup uniquely your own interpretation of the recipe then it should be ok.
           
          The only other thing to dodge is the social faux pas of not acknowledging the source by not giving them credit in your interpretation. The person who already put time into doing the research that made it easy for you to try that recipe appreciates getting credit as a source. The historic cooking community isn't that large a group and that would help you keep within most social graces.
           
          Making your own graphics is just plain easier if you want pictures (or use well known woodcut images). I have a couple of cooking related images from scrolls (and I think woodcuts)  I've been working with if you need a graphic or two. I did my own "tracing" and slightly modified the designs (a la Dover publications approach).
           
          A fancy font for a title and some nice text goes a long way for handouts too.
           
          I'd like to take some pictures of  the table setting at the demo and we could put up the recipes & menu for that table as a follow up someplace on the shire website. Makes a nice A+S thing for Mira to report.
           
          Bryn
           
           
          --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          From: Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@ yahoo.com>
          Subject: Re: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?
          To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:43 AM

          I can do my own redacting (modern recipe) however I'd like to double check about giving out the original.  The original, I'm sure, outdates copywrite issues.  However, I get the original from a book which is currently under copywrite.  How does that work out?
           
          Margaret

          --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com> wrote:
          From: Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com>
          Subject: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?
          To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
          Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:32 AM

          Also, you can contribute to our illustrious demo by printing out a favorite medieval recipe - lots of copies to pass out too? with references too?

          Just a thought!
          Leo
          aka Leofwyn of Wytleseie





        • L T
          Well.. here s where the best judgement part comes in for any copyright discussion, which as you know tend to be murky waters to navigate sometimes...what you
          Message 4 of 13 , Sep 5, 2008
            Well.. here's where the best judgement part comes in for any copyright discussion, which as you know tend to be murky waters to navigate sometimes...what you are asking for right now is under an educational setting...
             
            My best judgement would tell me that technically I should not to use that recipe 'as is' without explicit permission from the author for *mass* distribution in a demo setting because you are using the copyrighted version from a book. If you wanted to hand out a recipe in a closed educational setting (small class in the same room) you should be able to do that even without explicit author permission. If you wanted to redact the recipe for your own interpretation and use terminology you studied appropriate to the time period in your version it should be ok.
             
            The real question I know you are asking is whether the original work itself is under copyright. That is where the copyright laws are harder to interpret. You have the situation of older works not falling under copyright laws anywhere but you also have the issue of who has legal ownership of a work (let's say a manuscript in this case). The owner has the right to decide how the work is used in its direct form - that's why museums retain the rights to sell images of their own holdings in postcards, etc. 
             
             The artist has the right to interpret something and make it uniquely their own (otherwise "art" becomes severly hampered). You are taking something and changing it significantly enough into something that is distinct from the original (the artist who does the paintings of cat faces in famous paintings of renaissance garb, for example).
             
            Now, if you can find the recipe in a source (microform is a good example) in another book out of copyright or as a manuscript,  you can cite that as your source (and I'd use the swirly original text it comes in too, which is practically unreadable the first time you see it). Then I think you can use it because you are working from the information provided through another source.. and yeah.. I know.. the recipe manuscript might be owned by the author of that book you'd like to use and they who would technically have the right to profit from it in its current form (images of it, inclusion of it in a collection of historic recipes)..... and that's when the librarians and other authors consult copyright lawyers....
             
             It is highly unlikely that anyone would chase down a recipe manuscript to the point of knowing it was under private ownership except through extensive research.
             
            And besides, the manuscript is probably a copy of someone else's recipe who is uncredited..... (it's all one big hamster wheel....)
             
            In my distance ed classes broadcast via satellite the instructor found it was just easier to not try to put up a small cartoon she liked because of copyright laws - even though the cartoon would have been broadcast over a closed system there was the potential it would be breached (yeah.. i know.. seems silly). The same instructor was able to use the cartoon as part of a powerpoint presentation lecture when she came up to Maine to teach a saturday session of our distance ed class (the instructors flew up once or twice a semester to run a day long class).  In that instance the cartoon was in a closed physical environment
            with no handouts icluding it and used as one small part of her lecture.
             
            I agree with you that the way the wording in the recipe is stated is likely no longer under copyright of the original owner (if it ever was.. and copyright laws didn't exist in our sca time period of study to the best of my knowledge)
             
            If Elena finds out something different for this privately off ME-LIBS I'd love to hear it.. I have learned that there are different camps regarding how to interpret copyright laws.  
             
            Bryn
             
             

            --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@...> wrote:
            From: Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@...>
            Subject: Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Re:Demo display?
            To: Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:27 PM

            Creating and writing up the modern recipe is the easy part for me.  My biggest question hinges on the fact that I found "perboile oynoun & erbis & presse ..." in a book.  Those original words, I'm sure are no longer under copywrite. However, I found them in a book which is under copywrite.  And I'm sure someone has the copywrite on the work to translate the original calligraphy into typed work.  I'd like to not only make my own recipe, but also include the original I'm basing it on.  Can I put out that original without violating copywrite?
             
            Margaret

            --- On Fri, 9/5/08, L T <ladybrynmillar@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            From: L T <ladybrynmillar@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: Re: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?
            To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:13 PM

            Well.. trivia I learned from the MLIS degree was that the ingredients in a recipe are not subject to copyright - the written instructions (within reason) and fanciful descriptions of the food item are what is subject to copyright.
             
            The easiest thing to do is to take the basic ingredients, ignore the pretty formatting of the publication it came in and write your own introduction and instruction steps. Then cite the source(s) as inspiration and don't worry about it. If you made the writeup uniquely your own interpretation of the recipe then it should be ok.
             
            The only other thing to dodge is the social faux pas of not acknowledging the source by not giving them credit in your interpretation. The person who already put time into doing the research that made it easy for you to try that recipe appreciates getting credit as a source. The historic cooking community isn't that large a group and that would help you keep within most social graces.
             
            Making your own graphics is just plain easier if you want pictures (or use well known woodcut images). I have a couple of cooking related images from scrolls (and I think woodcuts)  I've been working with if you need a graphic or two. I did my own "tracing" and slightly modified the designs (a la Dover publications approach).
             
            A fancy font for a title and some nice text goes a long way for handouts too.
             
            I'd like to take some pictures of  the table setting at the demo and we could put up the recipes & menu for that table as a follow up someplace on the shire website. Makes a nice A+S thing for Mira to report.
             
            Bryn
             
             
            --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            From: Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: Re: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?
            To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:43 AM

            I can do my own redacting (modern recipe) however I'd like to double check about giving out the original.  The original, I'm sure, outdates copywrite issues.  However, I get the original from a book which is currently under copywrite.  How does that work out?
             
            Margaret

            --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com> wrote:
            From: Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com>
            Subject: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?
            To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
            Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:32 AM

            Also, you can contribute to our illustrious demo by printing out a favorite medieval recipe - lots of copies to pass out too? with references too?

            Just a thought!
            Leo
            aka Leofwyn of Wytleseie






          • kalamarre@roadrunner.com
            Here are the responses so far: 1. Kim-- A stickler might claim that there is a copyright in the modern *transcription* of the recipe from the medieval source
            Message 5 of 13 , Sep 5, 2008
              Here are the responses so far:

              1. Kim--

              A stickler might claim that there is a copyright in the modern
              *transcription* of the recipe from the medieval source for the published
              work. However, that is debatable and is balanced against many other
              considerations:
              (1) the recipe itself is an original, uncopyrightable text that was
              "imported" into the published work;
              (2) the recipe is presumably a very small part of the published work;
              (3) distribution of the recipe at the tournament is highly unlikely to
              undercut the market for sale of the published work.
              If this is the case, I think you have a clear example of fair use.

              Regards,
              John B.

              John R. Barden
              Director, Law and Legislative Reference Library
              State of Maine
              (207) 287-1600

              2. IMHO, the person who reprinted the recipe in modern English now owns the
              rights to the newer text. To be absolutely sure, I'd write the author and
              ask for permission. And cite the source. It would possibly generate more
              sales of the book!

              Debbie Gahm
              Public Relations Chair, Maine Association of School Libraries (MASL)
              Library Media Specialist/District K-12 Library Media Services Coordinator
              Lake Region High School
              1877 Roosevelt Trail
              Naples, ME 04055

              Personally, I trust #1. he is very familiar with odd citations from old
              works and he seems to grasp the situation better than the other one. I
              would suggest that you cite the source anyways. It is better to be safe
              than sorry and it is good info to share with curious folks.

              Elena

              Original Message:
              -----------------
              From: Margaret Rochester kenduskeagstream@...
              Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:27:14 -0700 (PDT)
              To: Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Re:Demo display?


              Creating and writing up the modern recipe is the easy part for me.  My
              biggest question hinges on the fact that I found "perboile oynoun & erbis &
              presse ..." in a book.  Those original words, I'm sure are no longer under
              copywrite. However, I found them in a book which is under copywrite.  And
              I'm sure someone has the copywrite on the work to translate the original
              calligraphy into typed work.  I'd like to not only make my own recipe, but
              also include the original I'm basing it on.  Can I put out that original
              without violating copywrite?
               
              Margaret

              --- On Fri, 9/5/08, L T <ladybrynmillar@...> wrote:

              From: L T <ladybrynmillar@...>
              Subject: Re: [Endewearde_cooks] Re:Demo display?
              To: Endewearde_cooks@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 12:13 PM











              Well.. trivia I learned from the MLIS degree was that the ingredients in a
              recipe are not subject to copyright - the written instructions (within
              reason) and fanciful descriptions of the food item are what is subject to
              copyright.
               
              The easiest thing to do is to take the basic ingredients, ignore the pretty
              formatting of the publication it came in and write your own introduction
              and instruction steps. Then cite the source(s) as inspiration and don't
              worry about it. If you made the writeup uniquely your own interpretation of
              the recipe then it should be ok.
               
              The only other thing to dodge is the social faux pas of not acknowledging
              the source by not giving them credit in your interpretation. The person who
              already put time into doing the research that made it easy for you to try
              that recipe appreciates getting credit as a source. The historic cooking
              community isn't that large a group and that would help you keep within most
              social graces.
               
              Making your own graphics is just plain easier if you want pictures (or use
              well known woodcut images). I have a couple of cooking related images from
              scrolls (and I think woodcuts)  I've been working with if you need a
              graphic or two. I did my own "tracing" and slightly modified the designs (a
              la Dover publications approach).
               
              A fancy font for a title and some nice text goes a long way for handouts
              too.
               
              I'd like to take some pictures of  the table setting at the demo and we
              could put up the recipes & menu for that table as a follow up someplace on
              the shire website. Makes a nice A+S thing for Mira to report.
               
              Bryn
               
               
              --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: Margaret Rochester <kenduskeagstream@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: Re: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?
              To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:43 AM









              I can do my own redacting (modern recipe) however I'd like to double check
              about giving out the original.  The original, I'm sure, outdates copywrite
              issues.  However, I get the original from a book which is currently under
              copywrite.  How does that work out?
               
              Margaret

              --- On Fri, 9/5/08, Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com> wrote:

              From: Leofwyn of Wytelseie <elamache@yahoo. com>
              Subject: [Endewearde_ cooks] Re:Demo display?
              To: Endewearde_cooks@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Friday, September 5, 2008, 11:32 AM








              Also, you can contribute to our illustrious demo by printing out a favorite
              medieval recipe - lots of copies to pass out too? with references too?

              Just a thought!


              Leo
              aka Leofwyn of Wytleseie




















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