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Re: Can Rock be Ragged?

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  • Bill Edwards
    The Firehouse Five Plus Two Twenty Years Later - all songs composed while they were together, including Winchester Cathedral. Joe Fingers Carr Plays Hits of
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 30, 2006
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      The Firehouse Five Plus Two Twenty Years Later -
      all songs composed while they were together, including Winchester
      Cathedral.

      Joe "Fingers" Carr Plays Hits of the 60s
      including Winchester Cathedral and much more.

      Ian Whitcomb has also done some crossover stuff.

      Nan Bostick was a rock keyboardist, but her first important piece was
      an electronic version of her first rag - the only discrete quad 45-RPM
      record ever done, now sitting in the Library of Congress.

      Can rags be rocked or rockers rag?

      The aformentioned plus:

      Emerson, Lake and Palmer Works 2 - Maple Leaf Rag

      Paul McCartney - When I'm Sixty Four/Honey Pie/You Gave Me the Answer
      and a few others

      Taco Ortiz - Puttin' on the Ritz and some late ragtime era stuff

      Tuxedo Junction - a disco group that actually did rag and early 20s

      Elton John/The Stones - Honky-Tonk Woman. OK, maybe

      Billy Joel - Root Beer Rag and others

      Glenn Jenks/Bill Edwards - The Maple Leaf Rap (seriously)


      Max Morath says it in his shows. Syncopation is the basis for ragtime,
      and he postulates that anything that grew out of ragtime and blues is
      syncopated. So Rock and Roll is a direct ancestor of R&B, Swing, Blues
      and Ragtime. Everything is ragtime if it swings or has syncopation.

      (Warning - this does not mean "piano rag" which has a different
      definition, so lets not go there!)

      It's late, or I would actually do my usual exhaustive detail work on
      this, since I know there is more.

      Rockin' Bill E.
    • Steve
      Oh sure. Some rock is raggy enough as written, particularly 60s stuff. I posted a list of various Grateful Dead songs awhile back. Brian Wilson s Smile
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 1, 2006
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        Oh sure.  Some rock is raggy enough as written, particularly 60s stuff.  I posted a list of various Grateful Dead songs awhile back.  Brian Wilson's "Smile" album is very raggy in places.  There's Randy Newman's 70s work as well; he drew on ragtime, blues, show tunes, and his orchestrations had a warped Stephen Foster feel to them.  There's a lot more, but that's off the top of my head.
         
        And there was a fair amount from the UK as well--in their case it comes from British Music Hall influences, also there was a "trad jazz" craze in the early 60s.  Members of the Who, Stones and others got their start playing in dixieland combos.  It wasn't a huge influence on them (pretty uncool compared to R&B) but probably did have something to do with hit singles such as "Squeezebox" or "Mother's Little Helper."
         
        Paul McCartney's written a bunch, of course.  (Don't forget "Maxwell's Silver Hammer.")  The Kinks did a lot of raggy stuff in their 1966-69 peak period.  Donovan had "Mellow Yellow," and some obscurities like "Pamela Jo" are even better.  A lot of the UK psychedelic bands were very poppy, and liked a bit of ragtime here and there.  The Purple Gang's "Granny Takes a Trip," The Smoke's "My Friend Jack Eats Sugar Lumps," Tomorrow's "Real Life Permanent Dream," Incredible String Band's "Cosmic Boy," there are plenty more like that.  Early Pink Floyd, even.  They snuck a sped-up ragtime break into "See Emily Play" (sounded like a demented music box).  "The Gnome" and "Bike" off the first album would convert well, and founder Syd Barrett had a few raggy solo tunes--"Love You" and "Effervescing Elephant" come to mind. 
         
        "Doin' That Rag" by the Grateful Dead is not particularly raggy.  Neither is "The Boston Rag" by Steely Dan.  "Feel Like I'm Fixin To Die Rag" by Country Joe & the Fish is, though... really, there's a lot of this stuff out there.
         
        In the most clinical sense, rock is closer to ragtime than a lot of jazz, because rock in its simplest form has a backbeat--boomchick boomchick boomchick boomchick.  OK, it's more often boomachicka boomachicka, but jazz has more subtlety and swing.  You could put a rock drumkit behind a 1920s recording of "Pork And Beans" and it would sound odd but would work.  You wouldn't want to do that to Mingus.
         
        Many disco tunes make great polkas, by the way.  Silver Convention's "Get Up And Boogie," Kiss' "I Was Made For Loving You," Lipps Inc's "Funky Town," they'd all work.  I always wanted to hear The Human League's "Don't You Want Me Baby" done with tuba, accordion and a phalanx of clarinets...
      • JohnMaherHome@aol.com
        Dang! ...and I thought I had a big record collection! Here s the info on John Arpin s Ragtime Beatles CD, released in 1986. And, yes... it rocks! Catalog
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 1, 2006
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          Dang!

          ...and I thought I had a big record collection!

          Here's the info on John Arpin's Ragtime Beatles CD, released in 1986.

          And, yes... it rocks!

          Catalog Number: CDD 373
          Label: ProArte

          Tracks:
          When I'm 64
          And I Love Her
          Maxwell's Silver Hammer
          Here, There, Everywhere
          Something
          Norwegian Wood
          Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da
          Yesterday
          The Fool on the Hill
          Let It Be
          I'm Happy Just to Dance With You
          Honey Pie
          Goodbye

          - JM!
          ======================================

          -----Original Message-----
          From: melodylaughter.geo@...
          To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sun, 1 Oct 2006 12:15 AM
          Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Can Rock be Ragged?



          Oh sure.  Some rock is raggy enough as written, particularly 60s
          stuff.  I posted a list of various Grateful Dead songs awhile back. 
          Brian Wilson's "Smile" album is very raggy in places.  There's Randy
          Newman's 70s work as well; he drew on ragtime, blues, show tunes, and
          his orchestrations had a warped Stephen Foster feel to them.  There's a
          lot more, but that's off the top of my head.
           
          And there was a fair amount from the UK as well--in their case it
          comes from British Music Hall influences, also there was a "trad jazz"
          craze in the early 60s.  Members of the Who, Stones and others got
          their start playing in dixieland combos.  It wasn't a huge influence on
          them (pretty uncool compared to R&B) but probably did have something to
          do with hit singles such as "Squeezebox" or "Mother's Little Helper."
           
          Paul McCartney's written a bunch, of course.  (Don't forget "Maxwell's
          Silver Hammer.")  The Kinks did a lot of raggy stuff in their 1966-69
          peak period.  Donovan had "Mellow Yellow," and some obscurities like
          "Pamela Jo" are even better.  A lot of the UK psychedelic bands were
          very poppy, and liked a bit of ragtime here and there.  The Purple
          Gang's "Granny Takes a Trip," The Smoke's "My Friend Jack Eats Sugar
          Lumps," Tomorrow's "Real Life Permanent Dream," Incredible String
          Band's "Cosmic Boy," there are plenty more like that.  Early Pink
          Floyd, even.  They snuck a sped-up ragtime break into "See Emily Play"
          (sounded like a demented music box).  "The Gnome" and "Bike" off the
          first album would convert well, and founder Syd Barrett had a few raggy
          solo tunes--"Love You" and "Effervescing Elephant" come to mind. 
           
          "Doin' That Rag" by the Grateful Dead is not particularly raggy. 
          Neither is "The Boston Rag" by Steely Dan.  "Feel Like I'm Fixin To Die
          Rag" by Country Joe & the Fish is, though... really, there's a lot of
          this stuff out there.
           
          In the most clinical sense, rock is closer to ragtime than a lot of
          jazz, because rock in its simplest form has a backbeat--boomchick
          boomchick boomchick boomchick.  OK, it's more often boomachicka
          boomachicka, but jazz has more subtlety and swing.  You could put a
          rock drumkit behind a 1920s recording of "Pork And Beans" and it would
          sound odd but would work.  You wouldn't want to do that to Mingus.
           
          Many disco tunes make great polkas, by the way.  Silver Convention's
          "Get Up And Boogie," Kiss' "I Was Made For Loving You," Lipps Inc's
          "Funky Town," they'd all work.  I always wanted to hear The Human
          League's "Don't You Want Me Baby" done with tuba, accordion and a
          phalanx of clarinets...





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        • Jim
          Just thought I d add that there s a neat ragtime piano solo on Tori Amos Little Earthquakes CD. The tune in question is: Happy Phantom.
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 1, 2006
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            Just thought I'd add that there's a neat ragtime piano solo on Tori
            Amos' "Little Earthquakes" CD. The tune in question is: Happy Phantom.
          • Bill Edwards
            McCartney had quite an advantage over many of the other musicians of his time concerning his exposure to old-time music. His dad was a big band leader in
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 1, 2006
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              McCartney had quite an advantage over many of the other musicians of
              his time concerning his exposure to old-time music. His dad was a big
              band leader in England from the late 1920s to the 1940s, and continued
              in music through the 1950s to a degree. So between this and the
              constant parties at his house, and eventually his aunt's musical
              influence when he moved in with her after his mother died, ragtime was
              in his blood. I can relate to this fairly well since I grew up not
              only with Beatles but with Carr, Lingle, et. al.

              This is often reflected in his writing, and something that annoyed
              Lennon on many occasions who wanted him to move on from the bloody
              old-time stuff. He continues to this day to a degree, incorporating
              and embracing all forms of music. His fourth CD of his original
              "classical" compositions is doing very well right now, and I have
              heard it - it is a very esoteric and worth entry, particularly from
              somebody who does not deal in notation.

              The influence being in his blood is very much embodied in the story of
              Yesterday (originally titled Scrambles Eggs until he fitted the words
              lamenting the death of his mother in place). He woke up with the tune
              in his head one morning, and though it was just an old jazz standard
              he had remebered or something. However, after playing it for a variety
              of people, he came to realize it was likely his own tune. While George
              Martin thought a lot about putting a double string quartet to it for
              the recording, it is essentially a very fine jazz progression, every
              bit as much as the beginning of All the Things You Are, and a
              sophisticated tune that is the most covered in history.

              Other overlooked Beatles songs also make for very fine jazz standards.
              Think of a Ramsey Lewis approach (Hang on Sloopy/The In Crowd) to
              Things We Said Today. It's the one I use, often to kind accolades. And
              from the White Album, I Will is also a nice non-pop tune, when done
              more slowly can also be done as a nice 1920s torch song.

              So here's the story. I have done many classroom career days or music
              sessions over the past couple of decades here in Loudoun County, VA,
              and other area school systems. I am always open to questions. So
              several years ago I was asked (as often) who I think the greatest
              composers of the late 20th century will be.

              Let me break that down. In classical or orchestral I think of John
              Williams, Danny Elfman, Leonard Bernstein (more a conductor than a
              composer however), and Elmer Bernstein (many great movie soundtracks),
              a short list excluding some, but William's name WILL rise to the top.
              And yes, there is Weber, but puhleaase, his style and output past JCSS
              are a bit more limited. Phantom is a three-tune show for the most part.

              Then I go to pop. For the first half of the century we undoubtedly
              have a big three - Berlin, Porter and Gershwin. Hands down. Not
              discounting many people, but these are the guys who wrote the largest
              quantity of quality tunes still with us. For the second half of the
              century, I choose McCartney (we will ALWAYS know his songs), Billy
              Joel (also versatile and leaving us with many standards), and Reginald
              Dwight - a.k.a. Elton John (who has won an Oscar, Tonys and many, many
              Grammies - quite a feat - and has composed rock, pop, classical,
              theater, etc.).

              So a student asks me "You mean Paul McCartney? Didn't he used to play
              with some group called Wings?"

              That's the first day I felt really old. Really.

              Back to my ruination of classical works. Bill E.
            • Steve
              Re the Smile album, Jimi Hendrix around this time described that era of the Beach Boys as a psychedelic barbershop quartet. Thought of a couple
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 1, 2006
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                Re the "Smile" album, Jimi Hendrix around this time described that era
                of the Beach Boys as "a psychedelic barbershop quartet."

                Thought of a couple more--there's the Thunderclap Newman album from
                1969. This was a group put together by Pete Townshend. The
                songwriter was a friend of his, the guitarist a whizz kid who wound up
                in Wings with McCartney, and the keyboardist was one Andy Newman (not
                to be confused with Randy Newman), an old boogie-woogie/barrelhouse
                guy who recorded a very rare album circa 1961 that was one of Pete's
                all-time favorites. (He got to do another solo album called "Rainbow"
                afterward. I'd love to hear either one, but don't expect to.) The
                band had nothing in common and soon fell apart, but had one massive
                hit with "Something In The Air," complete with an amazing barrelhouse
                piano break in the middle. (There are a lot of great piano moments on
                the album too, and Andy Newman got to do all the B-sides. It's all
                colllected on one CD, if you can find it.)

                Then there's Cathy Chamberlain's Rag 'n' Roll Revue. She recorded one
                album around 1977 and was gigging around NYC for a few years after
                that. She was a chanteuse in the Bette Midler vein, and the drummer
                in her band was an old-timer who sometimes used *four* sticks.
                Rolling Stone magazine was bemused: "hell of a little show we got
                here..." Anybody ever heard the album and is it any good?

                And a couple more American psychedelic gems-- "Ha (Ho)" by Lothar and
                the Hand People, and "Time Machine" by H.P. Lovecraft. If I really
                wanted to dig through my collection I could easily fill a few CD-Rs!
              • Steve
                ... Oh yeah, there s more recent stuff as well. Check out No One Knows by Queens Of The Stone Age. The main riff is the typical overly-crunchy modern
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 1, 2006
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                  > Just thought I'd add that there's a neat ragtime piano solo on Tori
                  > Amos' "Little Earthquakes" CD. The tune in question is: Happy Phantom.


                  Oh yeah, there's more recent stuff as well. Check out "No One Knows"
                  by Queens Of The Stone Age. The main riff is the typical
                  overly-crunchy modern guitar sound, but it's definitely ragtime. A
                  piano could have done that!
                • Bill Edwards
                  Took a break and played with it. The answer is YES for the most part. Stairway to Heaven makes a pretty decent ragtime tune with a light swing. Freebird ain t
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 1, 2006
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                    Took a break and played with it. The answer is YES for the most part.

                    Stairway to Heaven makes a pretty decent ragtime tune with a light swing.

                    Freebird ain't too bad either.

                    Any rock tune based on blues is also raggable/bluesable.

                    Two chord pieces (Satisfaction) don't work quite so good. Ragtime
                    needs more variety and structure.

                    Note that rock writers have also turned out some decent jazz. Case in
                    point - Fagan. Steely Dan is more jazz than rock. How about Leon
                    Russell - he's done jazz and rag. Masquerade is now a jazz standard.
                    Joe Cocker - The All Night Laundromat Blues. Country Joe's biggest hit
                    (We don't give a damn, we ain't going to Vietname) was actually
                    Muskrat Ramble with words. Mammas and Papas were one step away from
                    ragtime many times. Early Manhattan Transfer used rock and rag and
                    stride on their albums.

                    So yes, music is music. If you can disco Beethoven or even Rag it or
                    Rock it (remember Midnight Blue?) then music is mostly
                    interchangeable. It's a melody with chords. Beyond that, style has
                    something to do with it. You can rap Maple Leaf or Pineapple. You can
                    rock Nola with a nice 6/8 shuffle, you can rag Simon and Garfunkel,
                    you can rock Swipesy with a good back beat.

                    But for me, the Real American Folk Song is a Rag, so I want to
                    continue to keep it that way.

                    I see the other point of view. Glenn and I both use Maple Leaf Rap in
                    school (MLR to a Rap beat with the original lyrics untouched) because
                    it draws kids in, particularly in interurban areas, and they become
                    interested in the complexities of the music as a challenge, rather
                    than just see it as old-time stuff. I was responsible for Adam Swanson
                    and, to some extent, Adam Yarian that I know of, but there may be
                    others that have gone the way of rag because they see it as
                    interchangeable music with as much prescience and story as modern-day
                    tunes.

                    I also get with Maroon5, Foo Fighters, and most music that is not
                    screamo which is played today as well. Not limited in exposure, just
                    output.

                    Back to cracking nuts.

                    Bill E.
                  • cphuntington
                    Thanks for all the interesting comments. Are there any examples of ragged rock out there on the net that can be listened to? I have difficulty imaginging
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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                      Thanks for all the interesting comments. Are there any examples
                      of "ragged rock" out there on the 'net that can be listened to? I have
                      difficulty imaginging what this would sound like.





                      > Stairway to Heaven makes a pretty decent ragtime tune with a light
                      swing.
                      >
                    • Fred M. Cain
                      ... this. ... roll, ... Jeff, It is worth noting here that many rock-N-roll tunes were quite rag timey to begin with. Two 1950 s favorites that stand out in
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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                        --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "cphuntington"
                        <jeffreyhartmann@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Back in the days of ragtime, some composers "updated" old pieces by
                        > arranging them as rags. Ragging the classics is a good example of
                        this.
                        > Can the opposite be done? Is it possible "backdate" a piece in a more
                        > contemporary style and play it as a rag? Could big band, rock and
                        roll,
                        > heavy metal, disco, etc. be ragged? (Come to think of it, "disco
                        > ragtime" doesn't sound like such a good idea.) Has anyone ever tried
                        > this? Are there examples of this somewhere that I could listen to?

                        Jeff,

                        It is worth noting here that many rock-N-roll tunes were quite "rag
                        timey" to begin with. Two 1950's favorites that stand out in my mind
                        are "You're 16" (the original version) and "Happy Birthday Sweet 16".

                        As a small kid I LOVED tunes like this! Hmmn, wonder why? Of
                        course, back in those days I hadn't heard of term "Ragtime" yet.

                        On the flip side of the coin, there were a number of pop tunes that
                        actually originated in the Ragtime era were later "updated"
                        and "Rocked". "When the Red, Red Robin" and "Walk Right in, Set Right
                        Down" are two that come to mind.

                        It is also worth pointing out that some of the music by the Mamas and
                        the Papas and even the Beatles was heavily influenced by Ragtime.

                        As for taking a true Rock-N-Roll tune and "ragging it" there have been
                        Ragtime players (or "honky tonk" players) who have claimed they
                        can "Rag" anything. I have no doubt that that is probably true. It's
                        just a matter of how far you want to take something. You can "Rag" a
                        tune like "Stardust" or "Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" but it does change
                        the way the tune sounded originally, doesn't it?

                        Regards,
                        Fred M. Cain
                      • Bill Edwards
                        This sounds like an interesting possible ES Radio show. Perhaps in a couple of weeks after I m done with Alex Bay. It can go both directions, or
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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                          This sounds like an interesting possible ES Radio show. Perhaps in a
                          couple of weeks after I'm done with Alex Bay. It can go both
                          directions, or multi-directions - ragging classics, rocking rags,
                          ragging rock, etc. I have lots of examples from the last few decades,
                          including the current project that I have been working on, which blew
                          my mind a bit at first since I wasn't sure it could be done, but after
                          the arrangement and rehearsal, and now recording, has shown me that
                          you can rag almost anything.

                          Pleasing people who listen to it may be a different matter, but that's
                          just personal taste and like.

                          For example, you may be able to adequately rag Ave Maria (the Gounoud
                          more than the Schubert, but either will work), and I have heard
                          Amazing Grace ragged effectively. However, if the listener has a lot
                          of identity with the lyrics to those tunes and the meaning, they may
                          find such adaptation downright offensive. If you are referring to only
                          the melody, then that's a different matter. While I wouldn't recommend
                          ragging Ives or Cage, Stravinsky and Debussy had no problem writing
                          classical ragtime of their own. And many classical works from the
                          Nutcracker (Suite AND Ballet) to The Messiah have also been rocked and
                          discoed and swung, etc. So it's hardly new ground.

                          Ragtime/Rock - here's one that's been missed - TWICE no less.

                          In 1953, Louis Prima put together Just a Gigolo and I Ain't Got
                          Nobody, both 1910s tunes, in a very hip swing/R&B arrangement. This
                          same arrangement was copied almost verbatim with rock guitars, etc.,
                          by David Lee Roth in 1985. I recall being asked for that new David Lee
                          Roth video song several times when I was playing ragtime and the
                          Diamond Belle (along with that Scott Joplin song by Marvin Hamlisch)
                          and they were amazed to hear the missing verses for both songs, and
                          wondering if I knew Roth in order to get those verses. SERIOUSLY. Bert
                          Williams would be - mortified || proud || ambivalent || bemused -
                          programmers will understand that one.

                          Here's another link. George Burns sang When I'm 64 in the somewhat
                          lame Seargant Pepper movie with the Bee Gees, so there was a ragtime
                          era guy ragging a rock era song. And for adaptations - how many
                          remember Joe Piscopo as Sinatra doing an SNL with Mick Jagger, and
                          Jagger was singing New York New York and Sinatra swinging Under My
                          Thumb. IT WORKED. It was pretty cool, actually.

                          Music is music. How you state the melody, as I will be proving in a
                          couple of weeks with a new release, is the application, but the piece
                          is still recognizable. But context is also needed. Here is a test.

                          For those of you who have it, play only the melody line of the opening
                          few bars of Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata. Sonata lotta melody action
                          going on there, right? Without the articulated triad in the bass, most
                          people who otherwise know the piece would be able to identify it.
                          That's a Name That Tune question that only hard core people would get.
                          Add the context, and there you are. So even when altering a piece into
                          a different styles, there are certain points of context that have to
                          migrate with it, such as the basic chord progression to establish what
                          is familiar before you go off in new directions, or perhaps a riff
                          associated with it (like the Louie Louie riff, or the left hand of
                          Dardanella). If you add a back beat or a guitar, or square a waltz or
                          waltz a square (Ron Trotta did as much with Maple Leaf Rag and won a
                          Championship for that in 1988), it doesn't matter so much as long as
                          it works and the melody is there. It just makes it fun.

                          I will try to do a quick MIDI of the Stairway to Heaven Rag I played
                          around with yesterday. Perhaps if I add a section to it I can call it
                          the piece I have long joked about, Stairway to Freebird (work in a
                          college beer bar long enough, and you have to invent something like that).

                          Back to working myself into a frothing frenzy, Bill E.
                        • Tom Bingham
                          I recall that in the heyday of Tony Orlando and Dawn, some critic or (perhaps more likely) publicist dubbed Tie a Yellow Ribbon and the songs that followed
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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                            I recall that in the heyday of Tony Orlando and Dawn, some critic or (perhaps more likely) publicist dubbed "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" and the songs that followed it as "rag rock". Well, they weren't "rag" in my book, and they were hardly "rock" either.
                            Tom Bingham

                            On 10/2/06, Bill Edwards <perfbill@...> wrote:

                            It can go both
                            directions, or multi-directions - ragging classics, rocking rags,
                            ragging rock, etc. I have lots of examples from the last few decades,
                            including the current project that I have been working on, which blew
                            my mind a bit at first since I wasn't sure it could be done, but after
                            the arrangement and rehearsal, and now recording, has shown me that
                            you can rag almost anything.






                            --
                            Tom Bingham
                            "General Eclectic"
                            WCVF-FM
                            115 McEwen Hall
                            SUNY Fredonia
                            Fredonia, NY 14063
                            USA
                            http://www.generallyeclecticreview.blogspot.com - reviews of books on music
                            http://blog.myspace.com/mason2042 - "General Eclectic" playlist archive
                          • Bill Edwards
                            ... songs ... Did you note that the album and the show and the act was billed (in 1975, no less) as: Tony Orlando and Dawn present the New Ragtime Follies. Tie
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 2, 2006
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                              --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Bingham"
                              <mason2042@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I recall that in the heyday of Tony Orlando and Dawn, some critic or
                              > (perhaps more likely) publicist dubbed "Tie a Yellow Ribbon" and the
                              songs
                              > that followed it as "rag rock". Well, they weren't "rag" in my book, and
                              > they were hardly "rock" either.
                              > Tom Bingham
                              >

                              Did you note that the album and the show and the act was billed (in
                              1975, no less) as:

                              Tony Orlando and Dawn present the New Ragtime Follies. Tie a Yellow
                              Ribbon is a great pseudo-rag song, made less so only be years of
                              endless repetition and people asking pianists like me for it endlessly
                              night after night until we could just scream every time we hear the
                              name or see a yellow ribbon and become homicidal to the point of
                              killing jukeboxes and innocent cassette players who just happened
                              bring up this song that I had played on the piano about 7 gazillion
                              times so much that I was ready to puke and...

                              Sorry. Forgot where I was.

                              Oh yeah, and that Gypsy Rose song was pretty much ragtime also.

                              Knock Three Times? Not so much.

                              Bill E.
                            • Andrew Barrett
                              I m also curious about the Rag N Roll Revue . I have been wanting to start a jug band for quite some time. Rather than country music, we d play ragtime and
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                I'm also curious about the "Rag N' Roll Revue".

                                I have been wanting to start a jug band for quite some
                                time. Rather than country music, we'd play ragtime and
                                rock and blues. That must mean there would be some
                                hybridizing going on. I see little difference in the
                                essential "feel" of ragtime and rock.

                                The 8-to-the-bar feel that is so prevalent in much
                                rock is felt especially clearly in say, the piano
                                rolls of such luminaries as Clarence Johnson, Jimmy
                                Blythe, and J. Russel Robinson, among others.

                                This style, whether swung or 8-to-the-bar is called
                                "Rhythm Piano" and had many live practitioners as well
                                as piano roll artists (of course, those mentioned
                                above were live as well!). This style is a later
                                development of ragtime and is influenced by four
                                strong factions about equally: Ragtime, Blues, Novelty
                                Piano, and Stride Piano. I could provide a list, but I
                                don't have time right now. Maybe tommorrow.

                                Actually there is a really hot blues A-roll with
                                "Blues My Naughty Sweetie Gives to Me" played by
                                Clarence Johnson. He plays in the hot straight-8ths
                                style, and this tune just cooks like nobody's
                                business. Put a hard rock, indie rock or classic rock
                                drummer behind a drum kit next to the piano, drop a
                                nickel in, and tell him to just do his thing, and you
                                have a pretty hot recording! The "Musee Mecanique
                                volume 1" recording that I have is already very hot,
                                and the piano isn't even quite in tune!

                                I have the number of the A-roll somewhere if anyone's
                                interested, but I don't have time to find it right
                                now.

                                more tommorrow,
                                Andrew

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                              • Steve
                                ... Cow Cow Blues by Cow Cow Davenport is another one, with those bass lines. You could keep the right hand on the piano, farm the rest out to a rock rhythm
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                  > Actually there is a really hot blues A-roll with
                                  > "Blues My Naughty Sweetie Gives to Me" played by
                                  > Clarence Johnson. He plays in the hot straight-8ths
                                  > style, and this tune just cooks like nobody's
                                  > business. Put a hard rock, indie rock or classic rock
                                  > drummer behind a drum kit next to the piano, drop a
                                  > nickel in, and tell him to just do his thing, and you
                                  > have a pretty hot recording!


                                  "Cow Cow Blues" by Cow Cow Davenport is another one, with those bass
                                  lines. You could keep the right hand on the piano, farm the rest out
                                  to a rock rhythm section, and it wouldn't be that far off from the
                                  Jeff Beck Group or somebody like that.

                                  Raggy rock: forgot about "Things Going On" by Lynyrd Skynyrd, that
                                  has a nice honky-tonk break in the middle. And of course, you can get
                                  anything you want at Alice's Restaurant...
                                • Bill Edwards
                                  Did we forget: I wanna hear that funky Dixieland Pretty Mama won t you take me by the hand. And how about the weird renegade but pleasing Squirrel Nut Zippers.
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                    Did we forget:

                                    I wanna hear that funky Dixieland

                                    Pretty Mama won't you take me by the hand.

                                    And how about the weird renegade but pleasing Squirrel Nut Zippers.

                                    And mixing rock, swing and a little rag - Big Bad Voodoo Daddy.

                                    And mixing the same with rap, really! - Brian Setzer!

                                    Just random stuff.

                                    Bill E
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