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Re: 12th STREET NOT WRITTEN BY BOWMAN!!!

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  • Todd Robbins
    It is possible that this is true. You would have to do the math and figure out the years they are referring to in that article. She graduated high school
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 7, 2006
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      It is possible that this is true. You would have to do the math and
      figure out the years they are referring to in that article. She
      graduated high school around 1910 or 1911, went to a conservatory for a
      while (who knows how long that took), met Handy, met Handy's friend,
      sold it to him, he tried to sell it for a couple of years and then sold
      it to Bowman. Maybe, but the timing doesn't seem to work out. And has
      anyone heard this story before?

      Todd
    • Bill Edwards
      Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got the SOS from the guy right after my seminar as well, but didn t review the whole story. Until now. Zimmerman, when first approached
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 7, 2006
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        Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got the SOS from the guy right after my seminar as
        well, but didn't review the whole story. Until now.

        Zimmerman, when first approached (and he IS truly the leading Bowman
        expert) also likened it to BS of a degree since there is no true
        forensic evidence. This might include bill of sale, bill of transfer,
        original hand-written manuscript, etc.

        So, Riddle me this when reviewing this story (and others please add):

        Yates loved jazz at 16? In 1910? Really? Strange since anything like
        it really did not migrate to Alabama until at least 1914 or 1915, and
        it didn't have its current moniker until 1916.

        Bowman, who was known to have bummed (literally) around the midwest
        between TX and KS was in Tennessee? Or did Rosenwald end up there and
        happened to run into him?

        Did she write the horrendous original trio and he re-write it?

        Did she write the 16 bar intro which is so incredibly similar to 11th
        Street?

        Why are both versions of 11th Street Rag so similar in some respects,
        and certainly even a little more sophisticated to a small degree?

        The only composition of that time? What about Sixth Street Rag (1914),
        10th Street Rag (1914), Petticoat Lane, Fort Worth Blues, Colorado
        Blues, Kansas City Blues, all the latter from 1915?

        We know of the KC/Fort Worth variance. If it was written and obtained
        in KC, why did Bowman first have it published, nearly immediately, in
        Fort Worth?

        Sold with a bunch of pieces? 12th Street got at least three pubs by
        Bowman. The first had the horrific trio with the nearly unplayable
        leap. The second (I have a copy) is the redone version. Mine has a
        hand stamp of his with the 1914 copyright and his name at the bottom.
        Zimmerman estimates around 500 of these, and perhaps 500 of a
        subsequent edition were printed before the Jenkin's sale.

        So there is some credibility factor in that other story based on the
        fact that he had been an active composer and publisher to that time.
        Why take credit for a rag you didn't write if its not doing so well?

        Was it really named after the Kansas City 12th Street? Fort Worth also
        had a 12th Street district, so why not?

        If the rag sold quickly and was played and was recognizable, why no
        lawsuits?

        When it came up for renewal in 1938, don't you think the "original"
        composer might have tried to lay a claim to it if it was really hers,
        or that a pending claim or lawsuit would have held such renewal up
        until decided in the courts (it was not).

        I don't doubt her musical abilities, but where are her other
        publications. Granted, Fannie B. Woods (whom I was able to ascertain
        as a real composer and not a pseudonym, causing some stir among
        Charles L. Johnson fans) was verified by many pieces of evidence as
        the true composer of Sweetness, but she also had a few other smaller
        pubs. Clarence Wiley and St. John each had one good composition in
        them. This would be the only real support for this claim. We have
        bills of sale and some form of history for these pieces. Otherwise,
        for Frances we have a claim.

        It is possible that both of them wrote a similar melody, and there was
        some mistaken identity. But the lack of clear paper evidence, which
        good businessman will have and will have kept, or lawsuits, or the
        like, makes this a very hard to prove scenario.

        And yes, I have looked into this beyond Dick Z's sources in the last
        couple of days, including an LoC scan on the material, so I'm not
        unarmed in terms of data that undermines this claim. For the moment,
        they will have to rue Eu-day, and believe that Mr. expert Archer dude
        wrote 12th Street Rag, or at least did a real nice job of massaging
        three notes into a fairly credible hit.

        All viewpoints are, of course, encouraged. Please post somethin' here.

        Eu-day without sunshine is like...


        Night

        Bill E.
      • Bill Edwards
        ... If so, how was it that Bowman had published his three editions, plus some others with other street names, before Jenkins ever heard of it much less
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 7, 2006
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          Another gaping hole:

          > Jenkins Music Company named Frances' song, 12th Street Rag after the
          > famous 12th Street in Kansas City, and published it.

          If so, how was it that Bowman had published his three editions, plus
          some others with other street names, before Jenkins ever heard of it
          much less published it? This shows a huge inaccuracy due to a lack of
          proper research (Texas Ragtime, or simply Rags and Ragtime which also
          has the pre-Jenkins cover), and that alone provides reasonable doubt
          about the story.

          Know that even though I have had a hand in uncovering some real
          identities of previously-thought-to-be pseudonymns, I approached all
          of these with a level of skepticism. I had one case where a distant
          relative of a British John W. Bratton claimed it was the UK Bratton
          that had originally written Teddy Bear's Picnic. The evidence against
          this possibility in terms of copyrights, publishers, mentions, and
          other pieces by the American Bratton finally convinced him to give up
          a many-year sojurn to make this recognition come true. With due
          respect to this gentleman, he did have some good circumstantial
          elements on his side, but in the end the paper trail won out. I felt
          badly, but fact is fact.

          So I am not trying dismiss this claim lightly. Just show that there is
          a large body of evidence that contradicts many parts of it
          historically, and some coincidences and timelines that just don't
          quite match up. Not trying to be a party poop guy, but in order to
          maintain integrity in the ragtime community, we also need to respect
          fact in good balance with the ideas or suggestions of others, making
          sure that in the end fact wins - gently if possible.

          More clarification, I hope.

          On the Street where I Live, Bill E.
        • Bill Edwards
          One more time. I decided to go to the quiet 800 pound gorilla expert, Google, whose chairman I spotted in downtown D.C. this very afternoon. Searching on
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 7, 2006
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            One more time.

            I decided to go to the quiet 800 pound gorilla expert, Google, whose
            chairman I spotted in downtown D.C. this very afternoon.

            Searching on (remember we use quotation marks to delineate phrases):

            "Susan Frances Yates"

            I found

            ZERO

            results. Searching on:

            "Susan Frances Dunn"

            I found

            ZERO

            results.

            Trying to dial back the search a bit, and still keep it refined, I
            went for:

            "Susan Frances" yates rag

            I found 3 of 5 results, none of which had anything to do with this.

            Trying one more possible refinement, I went for:

            "susan yates" "street rag"

            ZERO results.

            Using Dogpile, which searches far beyond, I came up with a similar
            quota for engines that use standard delineated protocols.

            In other words - this has certainly never been public information, and
            it was not listed in her obituary either that I could ascertain, nor
            any family history (no names that match).

            If there were ANY chance of this being true, wouldn't somebody think
            that nearly 20 years after her death and some 58 years after Bowman's
            death that SOMETHING would have surfaced SOMEWHERE that would have
            made it to GOOGLE for crying out loud? You can find out the name of
            Julia Robert's kittens before she even knows them, or where the next
            Jennifer A. sighting will be within ten minutes of it happening, and
            this would seem to be a significant piece of information.

            Salt, salt, salt, some people claim that there's a woman to blame.

            Not in this case.

            I know: "Pooh, pooh, pooh"

            You can't have an opinion about fact, though.

            I'm done. I swear. I think.

            Bill E.
          • JohnMaherHome@aol.com
            Bill, you rock! I don t know where you find the time to do what you do but, please, continue. You ever find out where Joe Fingers Carr (Lou B.) is buried? -
            Message 5 of 8 , Jun 7, 2006
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              Bill, you rock!

              I don't know where you find the time to do what you do but, please,
              continue.

              You ever find out where Joe "Fingers" Carr (Lou B.) is buried?

              - JM!
              ============

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Bill Edwards <perfbill@...>
              To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 04:44:40 -0000
              Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: 12th STREET NOT WRITTEN BY BOWMAN!!!

              One more time.

              I decided to go to the quiet 800 pound gorilla expert, Google, whose
              chairman I spotted in downtown D.C. this very afternoon.

              Searching on (remember we use quotation marks to delineate phrases):

              "Susan Frances Yates"

              I found

              ZERO

              results. Searching on:

              "Susan Frances Dunn"

              I found

              ZERO

              results.

              Trying to dial back the search a bit, and still keep it refined, I
              went for:

              "Susan Frances" yates rag

              I found 3 of 5 results, none of which had anything to do with this.

              Trying one more possible refinement, I went for:

              "susan yates" "street rag"

              ZERO results.

              Using Dogpile, which searches far beyond, I came up with a similar
              quota for engines that use standard delineated protocols.

              In other words - this has certainly never been public information, and
              it was not listed in her obituary either that I could ascertain, nor
              any family history (no names that match).

              If there were ANY chance of this being true, wouldn't somebody think
              that nearly 20 years after her death and some 58 years after Bowman's
              death that SOMETHING would have surfaced SOMEWHERE that would have
              made it to GOOGLE for crying out loud? You can find out the name of
              Julia Robert's kittens before she even knows them, or where the next
              Jennifer A. sighting will be within ten minutes of it happening, and
              this would seem to be a significant piece of information.

              Salt, salt, salt, some people claim that there's a woman to blame.

              Not in this case.

              I know: "Pooh, pooh, pooh"

              You can't have an opinion about fact, though.

              I'm done. I swear. I think.

              Bill E.






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            • Bill Edwards
              Hi John. I m working with Debbi Whiting, his daughter, on points of his biography which she is compiling, so I ll be able to get an answer likely this week.
              Message 6 of 8 , Jun 8, 2006
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                Hi John.

                I'm working with Debbi Whiting, his daughter, on points of his
                biography which she is compiling, so I'll be able to get an answer
                likely this week. She has been very kind so far in new information I
                have received, and I have been able to provide her with some items as
                well.

                It has been very rewarding from time to time to provide information on
                people of the ragtime era to their descendants who did not have some
                of these things in their family history or geneaology. This has been
                one of the best.

                Stay tuned, well sorta, since I'm driving BACK to Missouri tomorrow
                for another weekend of ragtime performance. I'll get to stay home on a
                Saturday sometime by July. I hope.

                Bill E.
              • JohnMaherHome@aol.com
                Hello Bill! No problem. I m here, lurking and happy. - JM! ... From: Bill Edwards To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 8 Jun
                Message 7 of 8 , Jun 12, 2006
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                  Hello Bill!

                  No problem.

                  I'm here, lurking and happy.

                  - JM!
                  ==========

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Bill Edwards <perfbill@...>
                  To: EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 15:24:58 -0000
                  Subject: [EliteSyncopations] Re: Joe "Fingers" Carr resting ploace
                  answer?

                  Hi John.

                  I'm working with Debbi Whiting, his daughter, on points of his
                  biography which she is compiling, so I'll be able to get an answer
                  likely this week. She has been very kind so far in new information I
                  have received, and I have been able to provide her with some items as
                  well.

                  It has been very rewarding from time to time to provide information on
                  people of the ragtime era to their descendants who did not have some
                  of these things in their family history or geneaology. This has been
                  one of the best.

                  Stay tuned, well sorta, since I'm driving BACK to Missouri tomorrow
                  for another weekend of ragtime performance. I'll get to stay home on a
                  Saturday sometime by July. I hope.

                  Bill E.






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                  Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email
                  and IM. All on demand. Always Free.
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