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Gladiolus Rag-Edited

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  • ragantango
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 24, 2012
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    • isidore
      thank you so much ! this should keep me busy till Christmas !.
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 25, 2012
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        thank you so much !
        this should keep me busy till Christmas !.
      • FredC
        Interesting. I have always found that arpeggio in the first strain just plain tough to finger no matter what you do! I think I have always played my right
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 26, 2012
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          Interesting. I have always found that arpeggio in the first strain just plain tough to finger no matter what you do!

          I think I have always played my right hand 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4, etc. That has always worked well for me with one hitch. When I reach the top, I end up with my pinky on C in the right hand and have to make a quick 16th note jump with the pinky up to F which, as long am I'm not playing too fast, I can do even if there is a little bit of a bump there.

          This is also a piece that sounds good played a little bit slower anyways. Scott Joplin has an instruction to play the fourth strain a little bit slower yet but Max Morath used to actually speed up a little bit for the last strain which I think sounds really good, too.

          In any event, in my own personal, humble opinion, this is one of the finest piano rags that was ever composed by anybody.

          Regards,
          Fred M. Cain
        • jazzpianist
          ... I have long done and continue to do the simple 1-2-3-5 and octave jump, which keeps my hand in the same position and requires only a quick snap to the next
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 26, 2012
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            --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "FredC" <fredmcain2003@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > I think I have always played my right hand 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4, etc. That has always worked well for me with one hitch. When I reach the top, I end up with my pinky on C in the right hand and have to make a quick 16th note jump with the pinky up to F which, as long am I'm not playing too fast, I can do even if there is a little bit of a bump there.
            >

            I have long done and continue to do the simple 1-2-3-5 and octave jump, which keeps my hand in the same position and requires only a quick snap to the next octave. The only pedaling needed (and this is the example used on my site article on pedaling) is between the jumps, and it is short. Very easy to keep legato that way and keep the rhythm going. There many pieces that require quicker action than that octave jump, so it is not all that much of a challenge.


            > This is also a piece that sounds good played a little bit slower anyways. Scott Joplin has an instruction to play the fourth strain a little bit slower

            Say what? What? Huh? Never got that from "sostenuto sempre." Do you have an edited edition in which somebody ELSE besides the composer suggested that? Break it down. The sostenuto part is pretty much like faking the use of the sostenuto pedal, or holding down that top note (that is why it is barred separately when it doesn't need to be) and the sempre part means to continue to do it throughout. The legato below that means smoothly, of course. Clearly - hold that top note while you are sounding the chord below it.

            I do not see any direction to play it more slowly, and given the momentum the trio builds I can heartily NOT recommend the slowdown, unless you want to do it on the repeat. Since I do a downward roll on those opening measures on the repeat, it slows just a little sometimes, but not often. No largo or presto or anything between is indicated in the original score that I saw, and I was looking at my original 1907 printing from Stern, not a book.

            Just sayin', but we do need to be clear on the facts and intent as best we can when discussing what the composer's interpretation is. How we PLAY may be different, as long as we don't cite or blame the directions on the score for those differences.

            Finest intent and regards, Bill E.
          • FredC
            Bill, Good thoughts, thanks for your feedback! On the sostenuto sempre hmmmmn, you ve got me wondering now. As soon as I get a chance, I m gonna clean out a
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 26, 2012
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              Bill,

              Good thoughts, thanks for your feedback!

              On the "sostenuto sempre" hmmmmn, you've got me wondering now. As soon as I get a chance, I'm gonna clean out a closet and see if I can find Max's "Giants of Ragtime" 'cause I *THINK* that's where I read that but after all these years I cannot remember exactly what he said anymore. Maybe I'm remembering this wrong. That's where I got the idea about Joplin's "sostenuto sempre" meaning to slow down just a little bit. Maybe I'm wrong about that. To be honest, I have never been 100% certain what exactly "sostenuto sempre" really means.

              Ich kann etwas Deutsch but Italian? No way !!!

              Regards,
              Fred M. Cain



              --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "FredC" <fredmcain2003@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > I think I have always played my right hand 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4, etc. That has always worked well for me with one hitch. When I reach the top, I end up with my pinky on C in the right hand and have to make a quick 16th note jump with the pinky up to F which, as long am I'm not playing too fast, I can do even if there is a little bit of a bump there.
              > >
              >
              > I have long done and continue to do the simple 1-2-3-5 and octave jump, which keeps my hand in the same position and requires only a quick snap to the next octave. The only pedaling needed (and this is the example used on my site article on pedaling) is between the jumps, and it is short. Very easy to keep legato that way and keep the rhythm going. There many pieces that require quicker action than that octave jump, so it is not all that much of a challenge.
              >
              >
              > > This is also a piece that sounds good played a little bit slower anyways. Scott Joplin has an instruction to play the fourth strain a little bit slower
              >
              > Say what? What? Huh? Never got that from "sostenuto sempre." Do you have an edited edition in which somebody ELSE besides the composer suggested that? Break it down. The sostenuto part is pretty much like faking the use of the sostenuto pedal, or holding down that top note (that is why it is barred separately when it doesn't need to be) and the sempre part means to continue to do it throughout. The legato below that means smoothly, of course. Clearly - hold that top note while you are sounding the chord below it.
              >
              > I do not see any direction to play it more slowly, and given the momentum the trio builds I can heartily NOT recommend the slowdown, unless you want to do it on the repeat. Since I do a downward roll on those opening measures on the repeat, it slows just a little sometimes, but not often. No largo or presto or anything between is indicated in the original score that I saw, and I was looking at my original 1907 printing from Stern, not a book.
              >
              > Just sayin', but we do need to be clear on the facts and intent as best we can when discussing what the composer's interpretation is. How we PLAY may be different, as long as we don't cite or blame the directions on the score for those differences.
              >
              > Finest intent and regards, Bill E.
              >
            • Marcello Piras
              I am Italian. Bill is right. Marcello ... I am Italian. Bill is right. Marcello El 26/11/12 14:17, FredC escribió: Bill, Good
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 26, 2012
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                I am Italian. Bill is right.

                Marcello




                El 26/11/12 14:17, "FredC" <fredmcain2003@...> escribió:

                 

                Bill,

                Good thoughts, thanks for your feedback!

                On the "sostenuto sempre" hmmmmn, you've got me wondering now. As soon as I get a chance, I'm gonna clean out a closet and see if I can find Max's "Giants of Ragtime" 'cause I *THINK* that's where I read that but after all these years I cannot remember exactly what he said anymore. Maybe I'm remembering this wrong. That's where I got the idea about Joplin's "sostenuto sempre" meaning to slow down just a little bit. Maybe I'm wrong about that. To be honest, I have never been 100% certain what exactly "sostenuto sempre" really means.

                Ich kann etwas Deutsch but Italian? No way !!!

                Regards,
                Fred M. Cain

                --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "FredC" <fredmcain2003@> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > I think I have always played my right hand 1-2-3-1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4, etc. That has always worked well for me with one hitch. When I reach the top, I end up with my pinky on C in the right hand and have to make a quick 16th note jump with the pinky up to F which, as long am I'm not playing too fast, I can do even if there is a little bit of a bump there.
                > >
                >
                > I have long done and continue to do the simple 1-2-3-5 and octave jump, which keeps my hand in the same position and requires only a quick snap to the next octave. The only pedaling needed (and this is the example used on my site article on pedaling) is between the jumps, and it is short. Very easy to keep legato that way and keep the rhythm going. There many pieces that require quicker action than that octave jump, so it is not all that much of a challenge.
                >
                >
                > > This is also a piece that sounds good played a little bit slower anyways. Scott Joplin has an instruction to play the fourth strain a little bit slower
                >
                > Say what? What? Huh? Never got that from "sostenuto sempre." Do you have an edited edition in which somebody ELSE besides the composer suggested that? Break it down. The sostenuto part is pretty much like faking the use of the sostenuto pedal, or holding down that top note (that is why it is barred separately when it doesn't need to be) and the sempre part means to continue to do it throughout. The legato below that means smoothly, of course. Clearly - hold that top note while you are sounding the chord below it.
                >
                > I do not see any direction to play it more slowly, and given the momentum the trio builds I can heartily NOT recommend the slowdown, unless you want to do it on the repeat. Since I do a downward roll on those opening measures on the repeat, it slows just a little sometimes, but not often. No largo or presto or anything between is indicated in the original score that I saw, and I was looking at my original 1907 printing from Stern, not a book.
                >
                > Just sayin', but we do need to be clear on the facts and intent as best we can when discussing what the composer's interpretation is. How we PLAY may be different, as long as we don't cite or blame the directions on the score for those differences.
                >
                > Finest intent and regards, Bill E.
                >

              • jazzpianist
                On Giants, staring at it right now. It s the same plates as the original, and I don t detect any overt editing of notes (harder to find) or expressions (none
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 26, 2012
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                  On Giants, staring at it right now. It's the same plates as the original, and I don't detect any overt editing of notes (harder to find) or expressions (none changed).

                  On Italian terms, just enter it in Google and the first result will often be a definition. Or:

                  define sempre

                  and there it is. Or go to m-w.com (merriam webster) and they can also help with that.

                  Bill E.

                  --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "FredC" <fredmcain2003@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bill,
                  >
                  > Good thoughts, thanks for your feedback!
                  >
                  > On the "sostenuto sempre" hmmmmn, you've got me wondering now. As soon as I get a chance, I'm gonna clean out a closet and see if I can find Max's "Giants of Ragtime" 'cause I *THINK* that's where I read that but after all these years I cannot remember exactly what he said anymore. Maybe I'm remembering this wrong. That's where I got the idea about Joplin's "sostenuto sempre" meaning to slow down just a little bit. Maybe I'm wrong about that. To be honest, I have never been 100% certain what exactly "sostenuto sempre" really means.
                • jazzpianist
                  ... Thanks Marcello. Very much appreciated. I am not Italian - just classically trained, so have had these terms in my head since I was maybe 10 or 11. OR I am
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 26, 2012
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                    --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, Marcello Piras <piras57@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am Italian. Bill is right.
                    >
                    > Marcello

                    Thanks Marcello. Very much appreciated.

                    I am not Italian - just classically trained, so have had these terms in my head since I was maybe 10 or 11.

                    OR

                    I am not Italian. Ischt am ein Googler

                    Bill E.
                  • Marcello Piras
                    ... Marcello P.S. Google translators solve many cases. For the rest, count on me. El 26/11/12 15:43, jazzpianist escribió: Thanks
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 26, 2012
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                      El 26/11/12 15:43, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@...> escribió:

                      Thanks Marcello. Very much appreciated.

                      I am not Italian - just classically trained, so have had these terms in my head since I was maybe 10 or 11.

                      OR

                      I am not Italian. Ischt am ein Googler


                      :-))))

                      Marcello


                      P.S. Google translators solve many cases. For the rest, count on me.
                    • ragantango
                      ... I think the key to the interpretation of the parallel 16ths ascending over 4 octaves is in the slur lines over each 4 note group, not one line over the
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 27, 2012
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                        --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I have long done and continue to do the simple 1-2-3-5 and octave jump, which keeps my hand in the same position and requires only a quick snap to the next octave. The only pedaling needed (and this is the example used on my site article on pedaling) is between the jumps, and it is short. Very easy to keep legato that way and keep the rhythm going. There many pieces that require quicker action than that octave jump, so it is not all that much of a challenge.
                        >

                        I think the key to the interpretation of the parallel 16ths ascending over 4 octaves is in the slur lines over each 4 note group, not one line over the entire 4 octaves as he did in "The Cascades", A ms 11-12 which is also parallel 16ths over 4 octaves. This implies that he didn't intend for it to necessarily to be a smooth ascension but possilbly an audible break between the groups. I actually play it with a little pedal between each group but this is mainly to prevent that 4th note of each group from sounding staccato when I make the jump. With "The Cascades" I keep the pedal down through all 4 octaves.

                        Also,for me, using 1-2-3-4 rather than 1-2-3-5 eases the transition to the F octave at the top?

                        Roger
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