Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Two Lambs Potentially "Found"

Expand Messages
  • jazzpianist
    I have had a correspondence from Paul Hansen of FreehandMusic.com (many of us have used them or at least been to the site, and he evidently has had access to
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 1, 2011
      I have had a correspondence from Paul Hansen of FreehandMusic.com (many of us have used them or at least been to the site, and he evidently has had access to the Mills/Warner library. In their collection he found two Lamb manuscripts which have been mentioned but not published. Chime In and Crimson Ramblers. There are no years, but I would suspect they are part of the batch submitted for what became Ragtime Treasures in 1964, so are anywhere from the 1920s to the 1950s.

      Chime In sounds like it would be a two-step in the manner of Mel B. Kaufmann. I don't know about Crimson Ramblers, except that it echoes the title of Crimson Rambler by Harry Austin Tierney.

      I will keep this group apprised and see if he can find anything further. At the very least, this is a hint that the pieces from Ragtime Treasures will potentially be available once again.

      Bill Edwards
    • Bryan Cather
      Several times in past conversations with Trebor Tichenor I ve heard him mention one Doc Pruett.  I ll re-tell two of Treb s tales involving Pruett... Back
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 1, 2011
        Several times in past conversations with Trebor Tichenor I've heard him mention one "Doc" Pruett.  I'll re-tell two of Treb's tales involving Pruett...

        Back around 1949 or so, when Rudy Blesh was traveling the country collecting material for what ultimately became "They All Played Ragtime", he stayed with "Doc" Pruett at his home in Ladue, and it was from there that Blesh met with descendents of Tom and Charles Turpin, and obtained the "bow tie" photo of Tom that appears in the book. (true to style, Blesh never returned the photo) Rudy had a young women with him he introduced to Pruett as "Mrs. Blesh", and Pruett thought nothing of it....until he discovered later that "Mrs. Blesh" was simply a girl Blesh had met at one of the riverfront bars, at which point Pruett pitched a wall-eyed fit.


        Much of Trebor's roll collection, especially some of the rarities, came from Pruett.  Trebor mentioned to me at one time that Pruett could recall walking the alleys of St. Louis in the 40s and 50s, on bulk trash pickup day, and in almost every block someone was throwing away big boxes of piano rolls.  Pruett would pull out the Joplin and other ragtime rolls he felt were "good" and leave the rest.  One particular roll I know of that Treb got from Pruett was a 65-note roll of Joplin's "The Favorite" that had been in the collection of the St. Louis public library. Back in the late 30s, Pruett heard, somehow, that the library was getting rid of their roll collection and went to see what he could get....and that was one of the rolls he came away with. 

        According to Trebor, Pruett had one of the earliest collections of ragtime and jazz recordings, both records and rolls.  His record collection, according to Trebor, numbered 10,000 records "complete Bessie Smith, complete Jelly Roll Morton, everything".  Trebor says Pruett sold the record collection for $10,000.00 - a dollar a disc.  Trebor, apparently had known Pruett for some time at that point, and, hearing of the sale of the records, inquired about the roll collection, which apparently Pruett sold him all or part of.  It seems Pruett's wife had died, and "he wasn't interested in that stuff any more".

        So who WAS this guy?

        Well, in addition to being an extremely early collector of ragtime and jazz, he was a legendary baseball player, best known as "Babe Ruth's nemesis", Pruett was a pitcher for the St. Louis Browns, and struck out Ruth 13 times in 16 at-bats, in 1922  Ruth's batting average at the time was .339, against Pruett it was .190 

        Here's a link to an article about Pruett that mentions nothing of his interest in music, but speaks colorfully of Pruett's baseball career.

        <http://books.google.com/books?id=TTIDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=%22Neal%20Russo%22%20intitle%3ABaseball%20intitle%3ADigest&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=true>

        Hubert Shelby Pruitt was born in Malden Missouri on September 1, 1900 and died January 28, 1982 in Ladue, Missouri.

        BryanC

      • Ed
        Thanks, Bryan. I had never come to grips with who Pruett was, although I had been aware of his baseball prowess. Ed
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 1, 2011
          Thanks, Bryan. I had never come to grips with who Pruett was, although I had been aware of his baseball prowess.

          Ed

          --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Cather <catt967@...> wrote:
          >
          > Several times in past conversations with Trebor Tichenor I've heard him mention one "Doc" Pruett.  I'll re-tell two of Treb's tales involving Pruett...
          >
          > Back around 1949 or so, when Rudy Blesh was traveling the country collecting material for what ultimately became "They All Played Ragtime", he stayed with "Doc" Pruett at his home in Ladue, and it was from there that Blesh met with descendents of Tom and Charles Turpin, and obtained the "bow tie" photo of Tom that appears in the book. (true to style, Blesh never returned the photo) Rudy had a young women with him he introduced to Pruett as "Mrs. Blesh", and Pruett thought nothing of it....until he discovered later that "Mrs. Blesh" was simply a girl Blesh had met at one of the riverfront bars, at which point Pruett pitched a wall-eyed fit.
          >
          >
          > Much of Trebor's roll collection, especially some of the rarities, came from Pruett.  Trebor mentioned to me at one time that Pruett could recall walking the alleys of St. Louis in the 40s and 50s, on bulk trash pickup day, and in almost every block someone was throwing away big boxes of piano rolls.  Pruett would pull out the Joplin and other ragtime rolls he felt were "good" and leave the rest.  One particular roll I know of that Treb got from Pruett was a 65-note roll of Joplin's "The Favorite" that had been in the collection of the St. Louis public library. Back in the late 30s, Pruett heard, somehow, that the library was getting rid of their roll collection and went to see what he could get....and that was one of the rolls he came away with. 
          >
          > According to Trebor, Pruett had one of the earliest collections of ragtime and jazz recordings, both records and rolls.  His record collection, according to Trebor, numbered 10,000 records "complete Bessie Smith, complete Jelly Roll Morton, everything".  Trebor says Pruett sold the record collection for $10,000.00 - a dollar a disc.  Trebor, apparently had known Pruett for some time at that point, and, hearing of the sale of the records, inquired about the roll collection, which apparently Pruett sold him all or part of.  It seems Pruett's wife had died, and "he wasn't interested in that stuff any more".
          >
          > So who WAS this guy?
          >
          > Well, in addition to being an extremely early collector of ragtime and jazz, he was a legendary baseball player, best known as "Babe Ruth's nemesis", Pruett was a pitcher for the St. Louis Browns, and struck out Ruth 13 times in 16 at-bats, in 1922  Ruth's batting average at the time was .339, against Pruett it was .190 
          >
          > Here's a link to an article about Pruett that mentions nothing of his interest in music, but speaks colorfully of Pruett's baseball career.
          >
          > <http://books.google.com/books?id=TTIDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA20&dq=%22Neal%20Russo%22%20intitle%3ABaseball%20intitle%3ADigest&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=true>
          >
          > Hubert Shelby Pruitt was born in Malden Missouri on September 1, 1900 and died January 28, 1982 in Ladue, Missouri.
          >
          > BryanC
          >
        • Adam
          Glad you wrote down these recollections, Bryan. I ve heard Trebor talk about him quite a bit, too. Apparently Charley Thompson made some records at Pruett s
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 2, 2011
            Glad you wrote down these recollections, Bryan. I've heard Trebor talk about him quite a bit, too. Apparently Charley Thompson made some records at Pruett's house when Blesh came in 1949, but they have probably been lost (you don't happen to know who he sold his record collection to, do you?) Also, in the '60s Pruett had the only known copy of Joplin's "Leola," and he got Thompson to "try" to record the piece.

            Adam
          • Andrew
            Dear Perfessor and group... if true, this is an AMAZING find. These are certainly two of Lamb s novelty piano solos from the 1920s that were supposedly
            Message 5 of 8 , May 25, 2012
              Dear Perfessor and group...

              if true, this is an AMAZING find. These are certainly two of Lamb's "novelty piano solos" from the 1920s that were supposedly "thrown away" and "lost forever" when Jack Mills moved their offices in the 1930s(? Vincent please weigh in on this).

              This was a group of about two dozen piano solos, ALL of which are listed by title in the back of the THIRD edition (I don't have the first, second, or fourth so can't check) of "They All Played Ragtime", under Joseph Lamb's name.

              I don't have my book out and am about to leave the house to get some food, but I do remember the whole group had entertaining titles like "Banana Oil" and "Shootin' the Chutes" (probably totally unrelated to the published rag with the same name by Larry Briers, who was the pianist with Joseph Samuels' Jazz Band).

              One of the titles (again from memory) was "Cinders", and I have to wonder if this was the ancestor of Lamb's "Hot Cinders" which he finally had published? Perhaps he re-titled it since he had sent Mills his only manuscript copy in the 1920s or 1930s (which they either threw away or misplaced), and then he had to write it down all over again from memory??? I don't know the real story, I am just wildly speculating. Does anybody know the real story?

              If true, then I think "Hot Cinders" (published in 1964 in "Ragtime Treasures") is thus the only accessible, published remnant of Mr. Lamb's batch of "novelty piano solos", at least until these two other ones are finally published.

              I have to wonder, was "Brown Derby No. 2" a reference to the earlier lost "Brown Derby" which was another of those novelties??? Were the two "Brown Derby"'s musically related in any way, the #2 being a hazy recollection of #1???

              Also, where did Mr. Hansen find these manuscripts? If he digs in the same general vicinity, could he possibly locate all the others? This would be wonderful, and a TREMENDOUS find!!!

              RAGards,
              Andrew Barrett

              P.S. I would like to hear some more recordings of Joseph Lamb besides the Folkways LP from 1959, available on CD and MP3 here:

              http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=437

              Where may I find other recordings of Joseph Lamb? I know there were several different home-made ones done in the 1950s, and several of them are supposed to be of superior musical quality to the issued Folkways LP (which is a priceless historical document with good playing, but is marred, in my opinion, by the out-of-tune piano... I cannot understand why the folks recording Mr. Lamb did not pay to have his piano tuned and regulated, if he was too bashful to play on another piano outside the house)


              --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have had a correspondence from Paul Hansen of FreehandMusic.com (many of us have used them or at least been to the site, and he evidently has had access to the Mills/Warner library. In their collection he found two Lamb manuscripts which have been mentioned but not published. Chime In and Crimson Ramblers. There are no years, but I would suspect they are part of the batch submitted for what became Ragtime Treasures in 1964, so are anywhere from the 1920s to the 1950s.
              >
              > Chime In sounds like it would be a two-step in the manner of Mel B. Kaufmann. I don't know about Crimson Ramblers, except that it echoes the title of Crimson Rambler by Harry Austin Tierney.
              >
              > I will keep this group apprised and see if he can find anything further. At the very least, this is a hint that the pieces from Ragtime Treasures will potentially be available once again.
              >
              > Bill Edwards
              >
            • jazzpianist
              If true? Really? It IS true. I have the printouts (which I cannot distribute yet) and copies of the original manuscripts. He did not mention any more. This was
              Message 6 of 8 , May 27, 2012
                If true? Really? It IS true. I have the printouts (which I cannot distribute yet) and copies of the original manuscripts. He did not mention any more. This was some months ago, so no follow up as of yet. Had I been asked a little earlier, might have been able to get back to him before all this festival travel.

                Bill E.

                --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <rag1916@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear Perfessor and group...
                >
                > if true, this is an AMAZING find. These are certainly two of Lamb's "novelty piano solos" from the 1920s that were supposedly "thrown away" and "lost forever" when Jack Mills moved their offices in the 1930s(? Vincent please weigh in on this).
                >
                > This was a group of about two dozen piano solos, ALL of which are listed by title in the back of the THIRD edition (I don't have the first, second, or fourth so can't check) of "They All Played Ragtime", under Joseph Lamb's name.
                >
                > I don't have my book out and am about to leave the house to get some food, but I do remember the whole group had entertaining titles like "Banana Oil" and "Shootin' the Chutes" (probably totally unrelated to the published rag with the same name by Larry Briers, who was the pianist with Joseph Samuels' Jazz Band).
                >
                > One of the titles (again from memory) was "Cinders", and I have to wonder if this was the ancestor of Lamb's "Hot Cinders" which he finally had published? Perhaps he re-titled it since he had sent Mills his only manuscript copy in the 1920s or 1930s (which they either threw away or misplaced), and then he had to write it down all over again from memory??? I don't know the real story, I am just wildly speculating. Does anybody know the real story?
                >
                > If true, then I think "Hot Cinders" (published in 1964 in "Ragtime Treasures") is thus the only accessible, published remnant of Mr. Lamb's batch of "novelty piano solos", at least until these two other ones are finally published.
                >
                > I have to wonder, was "Brown Derby No. 2" a reference to the earlier lost "Brown Derby" which was another of those novelties??? Were the two "Brown Derby"'s musically related in any way, the #2 being a hazy recollection of #1???
                >
                > Also, where did Mr. Hansen find these manuscripts? If he digs in the same general vicinity, could he possibly locate all the others? This would be wonderful, and a TREMENDOUS find!!!
                >
                > RAGards,
                > Andrew Barrett
                >
                > P.S. I would like to hear some more recordings of Joseph Lamb besides the Folkways LP from 1959, available on CD and MP3 here:
                >
                > http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=437
                >
                > Where may I find other recordings of Joseph Lamb? I know there were several different home-made ones done in the 1950s, and several of them are supposed to be of superior musical quality to the issued Folkways LP (which is a priceless historical document with good playing, but is marred, in my opinion, by the out-of-tune piano... I cannot understand why the folks recording Mr. Lamb did not pay to have his piano tuned and regulated, if he was too bashful to play on another piano outside the house)
                >
                >
                > --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I have had a correspondence from Paul Hansen of FreehandMusic.com (many of us have used them or at least been to the site, and he evidently has had access to the Mills/Warner library. In their collection he found two Lamb manuscripts which have been mentioned but not published. Chime In and Crimson Ramblers. There are no years, but I would suspect they are part of the batch submitted for what became Ragtime Treasures in 1964, so are anywhere from the 1920s to the 1950s.
                > >
                > > Chime In sounds like it would be a two-step in the manner of Mel B. Kaufmann. I don't know about Crimson Ramblers, except that it echoes the title of Crimson Rambler by Harry Austin Tierney.
                > >
                > > I will keep this group apprised and see if he can find anything further. At the very least, this is a hint that the pieces from Ragtime Treasures will potentially be available once again.
                > >
                > > Bill Edwards
                > >
                >
              • vincentsragtime
                Hi Andrew, The Joseph Lamb titles listed as being lost forever when Mills moved offices in 1935 are as follows: All Wet, Apple Sauce, Banana Oil, The
                Message 7 of 8 , May 29, 2012
                  Hi Andrew,

                  The Joseph Lamb titles listed as being "lost forever" when Mills moved offices in 1935 are as follows: All Wet, Apple Sauce, Banana Oil, The Berries, Brown Derby, Chime In, Cinders, Crimson Ramblers, Knick Knacks, Ripples, Shooting the Works, Soup and Fish, Sweet Pickles, and Waffle.

                  I don't know the "real" story of Hot Cinders, but like you, I've always speculated that it was the Cinders mentioned above.

                  A quick google search reveals that Chime In and Crimson Ramblers are available to the public:

                  Crimson Ramblers: http://www.onlinesheetmusic.com/crimson-ramblers-p427647.aspx?type=list

                  Chime In: http://www.onlinesheetmusic.com/chime-in-p427646.aspx?type=list

                  I just downloaded my copies and while these solos hint at the novelty piano style of the 1920s, they have much more in common with Joseph Lamb's classic rags published in the 1910s and in the 1950s folio Ragtime Treasures. I'll spare reviewing them until I've played through them. Nonetheless, these are priceless finds!

                  Stylistically considering Brown Derby No. 2, I think it's more than fair to think it's related to the Brown Derby submitted to Mills in the 1920s; it certainly seems stylistically related to Chime In and Crimson Ramblers.

                  I can't help but wonder why Mills didn't issue these numbers. My first speculation was that they were not stylistically enough like the novelty piano solos popular at the time. However, Hot Cinders clearly is in the mold of the piano novelty and Mills issued a number of pieces that were quite stylistically out of date - Rastus by Charles Huerter is in the mold of the early ragtime cakewalks, Mike Bernard's Good Gravy is very much an early 1910's rag, etc. I now think they were not issued because Lamb was not a performing pianist or noteable figure in the 1920s. Thoughts?

                  Vincent





                  --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <rag1916@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Perfessor and group...
                  >
                  > if true, this is an AMAZING find. These are certainly two of Lamb's "novelty piano solos" from the 1920s that were supposedly "thrown away" and "lost forever" when Jack Mills moved their offices in the 1930s(? Vincent please weigh in on this).
                  >
                  > This was a group of about two dozen piano solos, ALL of which are listed by title in the back of the THIRD edition (I don't have the first, second, or fourth so can't check) of "They All Played Ragtime", under Joseph Lamb's name.
                  >
                  > I don't have my book out and am about to leave the house to get some food, but I do remember the whole group had entertaining titles like "Banana Oil" and "Shootin' the Chutes" (probably totally unrelated to the published rag with the same name by Larry Briers, who was the pianist with Joseph Samuels' Jazz Band).
                  >
                  > One of the titles (again from memory) was "Cinders", and I have to wonder if this was the ancestor of Lamb's "Hot Cinders" which he finally had published? Perhaps he re-titled it since he had sent Mills his only manuscript copy in the 1920s or 1930s (which they either threw away or misplaced), and then he had to write it down all over again from memory??? I don't know the real story, I am just wildly speculating. Does anybody know the real story?
                  >
                  > If true, then I think "Hot Cinders" (published in 1964 in "Ragtime Treasures") is thus the only accessible, published remnant of Mr. Lamb's batch of "novelty piano solos", at least until these two other ones are finally published.
                  >
                  > I have to wonder, was "Brown Derby No. 2" a reference to the earlier lost "Brown Derby" which was another of those novelties??? Were the two "Brown Derby"'s musically related in any way, the #2 being a hazy recollection of #1???
                  >
                  > Also, where did Mr. Hansen find these manuscripts? If he digs in the same general vicinity, could he possibly locate all the others? This would be wonderful, and a TREMENDOUS find!!!
                  >
                  > RAGards,
                  > Andrew Barrett
                  >
                  > P.S. I would like to hear some more recordings of Joseph Lamb besides the Folkways LP from 1959, available on CD and MP3 here:
                  >
                  > http://www.folkways.si.edu/albumdetails.aspx?itemid=437
                  >
                  > Where may I find other recordings of Joseph Lamb? I know there were several different home-made ones done in the 1950s, and several of them are supposed to be of superior musical quality to the issued Folkways LP (which is a priceless historical document with good playing, but is marred, in my opinion, by the out-of-tune piano... I cannot understand why the folks recording Mr. Lamb did not pay to have his piano tuned and regulated, if he was too bashful to play on another piano outside the house)
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I have had a correspondence from Paul Hansen of FreehandMusic.com (many of us have used them or at least been to the site, and he evidently has had access to the Mills/Warner library. In their collection he found two Lamb manuscripts which have been mentioned but not published. Chime In and Crimson Ramblers. There are no years, but I would suspect they are part of the batch submitted for what became Ragtime Treasures in 1964, so are anywhere from the 1920s to the 1950s.
                  > >
                  > > Chime In sounds like it would be a two-step in the manner of Mel B. Kaufmann. I don't know about Crimson Ramblers, except that it echoes the title of Crimson Rambler by Harry Austin Tierney.
                  > >
                  > > I will keep this group apprised and see if he can find anything further. At the very least, this is a hint that the pieces from Ragtime Treasures will potentially be available once again.
                  > >
                  > > Bill Edwards
                  > >
                  >
                • bobpinsker
                  ... Ok, I had completely missed this thread back in November, and indeed now I see that Crimson Ramblers , Chime In! and Shootin The Works are all
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 30, 2012
                    --- In EliteSyncopations@yahoogroups.com, "jazzpianist" <perfbill@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I have had a correspondence from Paul Hansen of FreehandMusic.com (many of us have used them or at least been to the site, and he evidently has had access to the Mills/Warner library. In their collection he found two Lamb manuscripts which have been mentioned but not published. Chime In and Crimson Ramblers. There are no years, but I would suspect they are part of the batch submitted for what became Ragtime Treasures in 1964, so are anywhere from the 1920s to the 1950s.
                    >
                    > Chime In sounds like it would be a two-step in the manner of Mel B. Kaufmann. I don't know about Crimson Ramblers, except that it echoes the title of Crimson Rambler by Harry Austin Tierney.
                    >
                    > I will keep this group apprised and see if he can find anything further.

                    Ok, I had completely missed this thread back in November, and indeed now I see that "Crimson Ramblers", "Chime In!" and "Shootin' The Works" are all available for download from Novato Music Press, in editions edited by Paul Hansen, perfectly consistent with what Bill said above. I am floored! For gosh sake's, we need more detailed information on the provenance of these manuscripts, preferably from Paul Hansen himself. What do we need to do to get his testimony on this group?
                    Even without having seen copies of the manuscripts and comparing them with the other Lamb MSS, I would have to say that there's little serious doubt about the authenticity of these. Compare measures 3-4 of "Chime In!" with measures 7-8 of "Brown Derby No. 2", for example.
                    Look at what Lamb told Blesh and Janis about these pieces:
                    "In the twenties I took a number of things up to Mills; they were the type of classic rags. Mills said to write some that were more novelettes, like 'Nola'. He took my first one and wanted four more. Fifty dollars is all he would give me. He ordered ten more, and when I took them in he would only give thirty-five dollars for the lot. Finally I said: 'All right, I want to see them published.' But they have never come out."
                    Now look at the first strain of "Shootin' the Works" - it is definitely "more . . . like 'Nola'" in the way it's conceived and scored, the first strain, anyway. But the rest of it is absolutely out-and-out novelty scoring. In fact, the trio of this must be about the most technically difficult thing Lamb ever wrote, I would say.
                    Playing them through, I'd guess that maybe Chime In! (so-named because of the chimes imitation in the trio) and Crimson Rambler might have been among the first things Lamb took to Mills, as they really are along the lines of 'classic rags', and "Shootin' the Works" would be in the group that Lamb composed to show that he was up-to-date - parts of the first strain sound a little like Confrey's "You Tell 'Em Ivories" and other novelties, for instance. Bits of "Chime In!", on the other hand, sound a lot more like James Scott's "Frog Legs" and "Ragtime Oriole" (the last strain of 'Chime In!' is almost a paraphrase of the trio strain of "Ragtime Oriole").
                    This amazing discovery raises a lot of immediate pressing questions for Mr. Hansen - first off, any more of the lost Lambs, as it were?? But more generally, in whatever archive he's gotten into, there might well be a lot more of the Mills pieces that are advertised on sheet music covers but never turned up, like, say, Harry Jentes's "Sortin' the Mail", etc. There are a lot of these 'phantom pieces' that everyone assumes were purchased by the publishers but never were issued, presumably because the sales of others in the same group that *were* published didn't justify throwing good money after bad, from the publisher's point of view.
                    As I say, what can we do to hear from Mr. Hansen on this group, Bill?
                    Excitedly,
                    Bob Pinsker
                    San Diego, CA
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.